Wikipedia talk:WikiProject World Rally: Difference between revisions
Mclarenfan17 (talk | contribs) No edit summary Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit |
|||
Line 1,457: | Line 1,457: | ||
::I feel free to that, but it mainly depends on other editors' opinions. -- [[User:Unnamelessness|Unnamelessness]] ([[User talk:Unnamelessness|talk]]) 02:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
::I feel free to that, but it mainly depends on other editors' opinions. -- [[User:Unnamelessness|Unnamelessness]] ([[User talk:Unnamelessness|talk]]) 02:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
||
:::Well, I'm hoping we'll be able to hear from otherwise-uninvolved editors soon. [[User:Mclarenfan17|Mclarenfan17]] ([[User talk:Mclarenfan17|talk]]) 08:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
:::Well, I'm hoping we'll be able to hear from otherwise-uninvolved editors soon. [[User:Mclarenfan17|Mclarenfan17]] ([[User talk:Mclarenfan17|talk]]) 08:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
||
''I didn't want to answer as we were instructed by Robert McClenon in the closing statement of DRN "...or don't continue the dispute. The latter is recommended" [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard/Archive_171#2019_World_Rally_Championship_2] and You clearly have an issue respecting other peoples opinions if they are not agreeing with you. I'd suggest You to learn it as it will help You in life. Also the question isn't deadlocked, rather, in my opinion, your proposals have been rejected, but as said You don't respect the opinions of other people.'' |
|||
I think the overly long introduction You have made above just scares away any uninvolved editors, because its hard to understand what really is the problem You have. So lets but it simply: |
|||
'''In season articles should the entries table be:''' |
|||
*'''Option 1: ''(current)'' sorted so that entries eligible to score manufacturer points are listed before entries ineligible to score manufacturer points.''' |
|||
*'''Option 2: all drivers mixed up and not sorted to manufacturer and non manufacturer points eligible entries''' |
|||
I support '''Option 1''' because it gives clearer overview for the reader about the drivers market situation. The media (main coverage) clearly focuses on the manufacturer contracted drivers. The non manufacturer points drivers usually only take part one event during the season (in [[2018 World Rally Championship|2018 season]] there's 14 private entries and 12 of them only participate in one event only) so it is a lot of drivers but they make up a small part of the season. And over all I think that at the and of season, there will be more private entries than contracted manufacturer drivers, the table will be long and massive. Reader looking in the article will be really confused if they look in the table and it is full of unknown one race drivers such as Jean-Charles Beaubelique, Robert Simonetti, Armando Pereira etc. I understand that for the bureaucratic approach this option goes against general rules of database-ism, but Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy nor a database. Wikipedia articles have to be copyedited, clear and sorted so that reader gets fast overview it is more important than following some FIA rules etc. --[[User:Klõps|Klõps]] ([[User talk:Klõps|talk]]) 23:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:05, 12 March 2019
{{WikiProject banner shell}}
to this page and add the quality rating to that template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.![]() | World Rally Project‑class | ||||||
|
New Wikitable Design
It has been serval months since we started to use the new special stages wikitable, which includes drivers' and co-drivers' names in it. I noticed that there's a lot of space on the right side of the table. Why don't we make full use of the space? Like:
Overall classification | ||||||||
Day | Stage | Name | Length | Winning crew | Car | Time | Class leaders | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
15 November | — | Bucca [Shakedown] | 5.07 km | ![]() ![]() |
Ford Fiesta WRC | 2:53.8 | — | |
16 November | SS1 | Orara East 1 | 8.77 km | ![]() ![]() |
Toyota Yaris WRC | 4:45.5 | ![]() ![]() |
First, it saved the length of the wikitable.
Second, it is much easier and clearer to display the joint lead, like:
Overall classification | ||||||||
Day | Stage | Name | Length | Winning crew | Car | Time | Class leaders | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
16 November | SS2 | Coldwater 1 | 14.12 km | ![]() ![]() |
Toyota Yaris WRC | 7:56.3 | ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
--Unnamelessness (talk) 05:39, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, if you think my version is not suitable. Current one is not good, and 1 cell version is much better than it was in the beginning (seperate cell for co-driver). Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:02, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness:
- "First, it saved the length of the wikitable."
- But it's causing the table to be unnecessarily wide. You need the nowraps to make the table readable. The problem is that it's forcing the table to be very wide—wider than the default for most browsers. The browsers automatically resize to accomodate the widest object on the screen, which forces the rest of the article to appear smaller. It's possible for individual users to fix their display settings, but it's unreasonable to expect everyone to do it independently. Whatever the benefits of using the mdashes, it's causing major accessibility issues. 1.144.104.92 (talk) 05:50, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- My laptop doesn't have that issue. If you are worried about the width, then we use the nowraps to fix the issue. --Unnamelessness (talk) 07:08, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness:
- I don't have that problem either. What to you mean "accessibility issues"? Same problem (width) with separate columns. With co-drivers it's either unnecessarily wide or unnecessarily long.Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:15, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness, @Pelmeen10:
- "My laptop doesn't have that issue."
- "I don't have that problem either."
- That doesn't mean anything. Your resolution settings work fine, but that doesn't mean that everyone has the same experience.
- "What to you mean 'accessibility issues'?"
- I mean that people cannot read the article easily because the screen automatically scales the article to fit the widest object—the table. Everything else is reduced in size as a result.
- "With co-drivers it's either unnecessarily wide or unnecessarily long."
- But a long table doesn't have the issues of a wide table. 1.144.104.92 (talk) 08:24, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness, @Pelmeen10:
- I don't have that problem either. What to you mean "accessibility issues"? Same problem (width) with separate columns. With co-drivers it's either unnecessarily wide or unnecessarily long.Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:15, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
So, to solve the potential issue, my advice is to use the nowraps. --Unnamelessness (talk) 08:39, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- And I think the issue of a long table is unclear to display the joint stage win/lead. --Unnamelessness (talk) 08:44, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness:
- "So, to solve the potential issue"
- It'a not a "potential" issue. It's an issue, full stop. Just because you don't see it, that doesn't mean it's not there. Moreover, we have the means to fix it for everyone with the markup.
- "my advice is to use the nowraps."
- The nowraps force everything into one row. We use them for tablet and mobile readers where tables that are wider than the screen (because the screens are so small) are unavoidable. 1.144.104.92 (talk) 11:01, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- "It's an issue, full stop."
- The nowraps can solve the issue you mentioned before.
- "The browsers automatically resize to accomodate the widest object on the screen, which forces the rest of the article to appear smaller."
- Everything is forced into one row, then it is readable. Issue fixed. Why revert it back? --Unnamelessness (talk) 11:25, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness:
Besides all the arguing over small things - the final results table no more includes points scored. Readers can no longer find out the most important thing of an event. Why the heck do we even have (so long) articles? Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:48, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Too messy is the reason that the table does not include the points. I think we probrably need another new wikitable to list the crews that manage to score points. --Unnamelessness (talk) 08:54, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Basically everything else is less important compared to points scorers. Messy or not messy, currently (let's take 2018 Rally de España) there's no indication crews even scored any points - especially lower classes like wrc2. Pelmeen10 (talk) 09:14, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Now I design one at 2018 Rally Australia. --Unnamelessness (talk) 10:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Basically everything else is less important compared to points scorers. Messy or not messy, currently (let's take 2018 Rally de España) there's no indication crews even scored any points - especially lower classes like wrc2. Pelmeen10 (talk) 09:14, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- Another table is the last thing we need. And might I remind you, @Pelmeen10 that we're in this situation because you insisted on having a redundant column in the table. 1.144.104.92 (talk) 11:03, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
@1.144.104.92 @Pelmeen10 I have to say, I genuinely feel depressed sometimes. You spent an hour in designing a new table, then another editor straightly remove it just because he/she disagree with the idea. Seriously, have you two guys try to do something constructive at rally pages? Like updating statistics or writing a rally summary? The only exception is Rally GB probrably. The whole feeling you two give me is just demanding. I have to say this is impossible to get consensus. --Unnamelessness (talk) 11:52, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
@1.144.104.92, we are in this situation because you decided from Wales Rally GB, that we should include all registered crews and their overall time. Then you decided that including point is messy. Jeez, what is the actual point of these articles? We should start from the most important things and then consider adding other stuff, not the other way around. Why can't we go back to the style we used until 2018 Rally Turkey? Btw too long articles make it unfocused, can we think about some content being auto-collapsed? Pelmeen10 (talk) 21:21, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
- @Pelmeen10 I have already made three rally pages and genuinely think the full entry list is not very necessary since most of the infomation is not so important. I would also say go back to the style used until 2018 Rally Turkey.
- Then we will face the question about limiting the crews to top ten finshers or not, and I think the newly-designed table (e.g. 2018 Rally Australia#Point scorers) would be a better solution.
- Speaking of the question that should stage results table include co-drivers or not, I would go on with Yes. As 1.144.104.92 (PrisonerMonkeys) mentioned at Talk:2018 Wales Rally GB:
- "A crew is made up of a driver and co-driver. Both should be recognised."
- And I'd prefer a wide version with the noraps.
- So, summarize for 2019 rally pages: just WRC/WRC-2/WRC-3/J-WRC entries, rally result wikitable (top ten finishers), Power stage result table, J-WRC extra points result table (use it in J-WRC rounds), points scorers table, stage result table (wide), penalty table and retirement table.
- I am wondering the opinion of yours, in fact, the opinion of every editors participated in the project. --Unnamelessness (talk) 13:52, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with listing only those crews that take part in those championships (wrc3 is history though). And then we shouldn't include any other un-notable crews in retirements/penalties either. But, every crew we mention in the entry list, we have to include their overall result. Wait, what tables are you suggesting for results (different from Rally Turkey page)? Top10 and point scorers both? Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:16, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- Yep, WRC-3 is history, my bad. So, just WRC/WRC-2 (Pro)/J-WRC entries. And how do we difine "notable" in retirement/penalty table. I think they should include WRC/WRC-2 (Pro)/J-WRC crews.
- Regarding the results, top 10 and point scorers both, yep, because the WRC crews who score the Power stage points but not finish in the top ten and J-WRC crews who achieve stage wins but retire will not list in the top ten table. So, I think we need point scorers table to list all the crews who score points. --Unnamelessness (talk) 23:56, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with listing only those crews that take part in those championships (wrc3 is history though). And then we shouldn't include any other un-notable crews in retirements/penalties either. But, every crew we mention in the entry list, we have to include their overall result. Wait, what tables are you suggesting for results (different from Rally Turkey page)? Top10 and point scorers both? Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:16, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
Ford
There is an ongoing dispute on the page World Rally Championship about 2017's manufacturer champion. My prospective is to use " M-Sport", because
a) In 2017, Ford did not contest the championship.
b) The manufacturer champion of 2017 is M-Sport, which is a British team.
c) Ford competed from 1973–1985 with a U.S. racing license, and has competed since 1986 with a British racing licence.
Per c), 2006 & 2007 are British as well. — Unnamelessness (talk) 03:58, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
Multiple proposals
Per Talk:2019 World Rally Championship#Proposal: rounds column, multiple proposals were raised in order to improve the readability.
- Tvx1, Pelmeen10, Kovpastish — Feel free to comment and add new proposals below if you have. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 11:06, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
Rounds column
Should the rounds column treats by the number of rounds a crew contested or relates to the specific rounds?
A:Treating by the number of rounds a crew contested.
Manufacturer | Entrant | Car | Tyre | No. | Driver name | Co-driver name | Rounds |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Hyundai | ![]() |
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC | M | 4 | ![]() |
![]() |
All |
5 | ![]() |
![]() |
All | ||||
6 | ![]() |
![]() |
1, 3–5, 9, 12 | ||||
![]() |
![]() |
2, 6–8, 10–11, 13 |
B:Relating to the specific rounds.
Manufacturer | Entrant | Car | Tyre | No. | Driver name | Co-driver name | Rounds |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Hyundai | ![]() |
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC | M | 4 | ![]() |
![]() |
All |
5 | ![]() |
![]() |
All | ||||
6 | ![]() |
![]() |
5 | ||||
![]() |
![]() |
7 |
Comment
- Neutral. I have no strong perspectives on this. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 10:42, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- It does not look that good if a driver has multiple co-drivers. And to be consistent, then all season's article's should be changed (which is too much work). It's also confusing during the season. Imagine how would it look mid-season. So, I don't see any gain from this change. Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:13, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- A — I think it's fine the way it is now. Kovpastish (talk) 18:02, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- A I simply cannot understand what the numbers in the second table's round column are supposed to mean.Tvx1 00:13, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Entry list
Should we have only one entry list or two entry lists?
A:One.
B:Two.
Comment
- Neutral. It would be fine with the current two, but if it has to be one, then I suggest like:
Manufacturer | Entrant | Car | Tyre | No. | Driver name | Co-driver name | Rounds |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
World Rally Car entries eligible to score manufacturer points | |||||||
Manufacturer name | Entrant name | Car model | Tyre brand | Car number | Driver name | Co-driver name | Rounds |
World Rally Car entries ineligible to score manufacturer points | |||||||
Manufacturer name | Entrant name | Car model | Tyre brand | Car number | Driver name | Co-driver name | Rounds |
Source: |
-- Unnamelessness (talk) 10:48, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- This kind of looks better than the current tables, with no major changes. Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:02, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: we should have one entry list with equal weight given to drivers, co-drivers and manufacturers. Indicating manufacturer entries in a more subtle way should be possible. Or we could just leave it to the results matrix since that is limited to manufacturer entries anyway. 1.144.108.234 (talk) 11:03, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- Then would you please give us a sandbox? -- Unnamelessness (talk) 23:44, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness — in its simplest form, it would look like this:
Manufacturer Entrant Car Tyre Crew details No. Driver name Co-driver name Rounds Ford M-Sport Ford WRT
Ford Fiesta WRC M 4 Elfyn Evans
Scott Martin
All 25 Teemu Suninen
Marko Salminen
All 38 Pontus Tidemand
Emil Axelsson
1—2 54 Tiabeanie Grunkwitz
Elfo the Elf
3–14 66 Homer Simpson
Marge Simpson
11 91 Phillip J. Fry
Bender B. Rodriguez
5, 8
- We would then use the WCM matrix to indicate which cars were eligible to score points. That means using the number column (which is unpopular, I know), but the entry list is for the entries and the matrix is for the results. They shouldn't be trying to do the job of the other.
- Since the number column in the results matrix is unpopular, an alternative might look like this:
Manufacturer Entrant Car Tyre Crew details No. Driver name Co-driver name Rounds Ford M-Sport Ford WRT
Ford Fiesta WRC M 4 Elfyn Evans
Scott Martin
All 25 Teemu Suninen
Marko Salminen
All 38 Pontus Tidemand
Emil Axelsson
1—2 54 Tiabeanie Grunkwitz
Elfo the Elf
3–14 66[a] Homer Simpson
Marge Simpson
11 91[a] Phillip J. Fry
Bender B. Rodriguez
5, 8
- We use the footnotes to indicate which entries were not eligible to score points. Other options might include a shaded background (such as MotoGP articles), an icon within an extra column or a coloured border for the number.
- And yes, I am a Matt Groening fan. 1.129.105.121 (talk) 06:40, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- For the record, my personal preference would be to keep the entry list as neutral as possible and worry about points eligibility elsewhere. Yes, that means keeping the numbers column in the matrix, but it's a small price to pay for keeping the functions of the tables separate. 1.129.105.121 (talk) 06:43, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- Using (foot)notes like your second example does not make the table simpler or more understandable. I don't get the unequal weight you're expressing. Two wikitables or a simple way of seperating two different things in 1 table is justified. And the results table is too late to explain something that is left out previously (entry list). Something that may seem simple, is not always better. Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:02, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- In the season article, if we keep the style of including only World Rally Car entries, there's not much needed to change. Event articles are a different thing, IMO we should keep them similar to season article and also mention in their entry list (example 2018_Rally_Turkey#Entry_list) their manuf points eligibility - WRC-2 or other championship eligibility is mentioned. As for the explanation - "Only crews contesting the World Rally Championship, World Rally Championship-2 and World Rally Championship-3 are listed." - if this note is even necessary then "Only crews contesting with World Rally Cars or in the World Rally Championship-2 and World Rally Championship-3 are listed." is more accurate.
- My other suggestion in event articles is if we'd have the full results wikitable from Wales Rally GB article (we don't have to iclude private crews anywhere else than overall results), maybe even add points to that same table to save space. Or just keep ignoring private entries. Just something changed in the table(s) for final results and points scored, that it would look better. Prisonermonkeys mentioned we should not dublicate info (like flags) everywhere, then maybe entrant/car can be removed - we're not showing manuf. points anyway - so the width can be used to mention points. Pelmeen10 (talk) 08:20, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- It's not the job of the entry list to show who is eligible for which points. 1.129.105.121 (talk) 09:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- Why not? Entry list on wrc.com and ewrc-results.com both include eligibility - M, WRC2, WRC3, WRC3J and NONE. Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:16, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- So long as we keep all of the content, we are under no obligation to perfectly recreate the style of the sources. Formula 1 entry lists give three names, the entrant, the constructor and the team's trading name—but the trading name is irrelevant, so it is not included in articles.
- Why not? Entry list on wrc.com and ewrc-results.com both include eligibility - M, WRC2, WRC3, WRC3J and NONE. Pelmeen10 (talk) 22:16, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- It's not the job of the entry list to show who is eligible for which points. 1.129.105.121 (talk) 09:44, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- The entry list should be presented in the most straightforward way. Points eligibility is an unnecessary layer of complexity, especially when we have a results matrix that shows the results breakdown. The difference between Wikipedia and wrc.com is that our entry list and results matrix are on the same webpage. 1.129.107.93 (talk) 22:31, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- I think it is okay, but it has a small problem. What if we encounter the circumstance like Dani Sordo in 2018, when he is eligible to score manufacturer points in six rounds but ineligible at Portugal, how could we do?
|
|
This is probably the solution. I prefer coloured borders for rounds like MotoGP articles do. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 10:06, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- Neutral as well. Kovpastish (talk) 18:07, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- B:Two. We have used this system for years and it works just fine. Moreover the proposed table is not accessibility compliant. The table wide headers cause problems for people using assertive technology.Tvx1 00:11, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- Comment: you do know that there's more than two proposals here, right? 1.129.107.93 (talk) 00:21, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Results matrices
Should the results matrices indicate positions or points?
A:Positions.
Pos. | Driver | MON![]() |
SWE![]() |
MEX![]() |
FRA![]() |
ARG![]() |
POR![]() |
ITA![]() |
FIN![]() |
DEU![]() |
TUR![]() |
GBR![]() |
CAT![]() |
AUS![]() |
Points |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | ![]() |
15 | 102 | 1 | 13 | 42 | Ret | 22 | 5 | 41 | 102 | 13 | 22 | 51 | 219 |
B:Points.
Pos. | Driver | MON![]() |
SWE![]() |
MEX![]() |
FRA![]() |
ARG![]() |
POR![]() |
ITA![]() |
FIN![]() |
DEU![]() |
TUR![]() |
GBR![]() |
CAT![]() |
AUS![]() |
Points |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | ![]() |
26 | 5 | 25 | 28 | 18 | 0 | 22 | 10 | 19 | 5 | 28 | 22 | 15 | 219 |
Comment
- A — If we use B, we won't know where the driver finshes at each rally (4th or below). If two divers score exactly the same points at the end of season, how would we know who ranks ahead? -- Unnamelessness (talk) 10:52, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- I think there is a better way to show points or even both. And the Power Stage (or stage win) points should be divided from other points. Pelmeen10 (talk) 17:17, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- A little sketch of including both position and score, can be modified further.
Pos. Driver MON SWE MEX FRA ARG POR ITA FIN DEU TUR GBR CAT AUS Points 1 Sébastien Ogier
1
2610
51
251
284
16Ret
02
225
104
1710
51
282
225
15219
- Looks decent and is what most other results sites use, but if we are voting between either points or positions I vote for A. Kovpastish (talk) 17:57, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yes I would vote for that, but still Power stage points should be divided. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:16, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- That's a great idea! -- Unnamelessness (talk) 23:45, 28 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, PS points should be divided, I agree with that. Should the first row have position or points? In my first example it's position that's first. This is how it would look with points in the first row:
- This is also similar to how sites like eWRC-results and WRC present it. For Manufacturers' table I now think we would have to limit the results to two cars instead of three, to do a sum of the two classified cars. Kovpastish (talk) 13:42, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- Position first like:
- Using "{ { small| } }" to replace "< small >< /small >" to save size.
- "For Manufacturers' table I now think we would have to limit the results to two cars instead of three, to do a sum of the two classified cars."
How to design? I hope you can open a new sub-section to discuss. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 14:14, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- We cannot limit it to two cars instead of three, as was explained at length in the recent discussion on the 2019 talk page. 1.129.110.50 (talk) 18:49, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- Quite on the contrary. That discussion actually shows a clear support to limit to the two result they are actually credited with. Your are literally the only contributor who opposes the removal.Tvx1 00:15, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- We cannot limit it to two cars instead of three, as was explained at length in the recent discussion on the 2019 talk page. 1.129.110.50 (talk) 18:49, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- A I really can't see much benefit in overhauling this system. The positions are necessary as they act as tie-breakers in case of a tie on points.Tvx1 00:27, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- So, coming to the end, we try to include both positions and points in the table to avoid that problem. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 02:57, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- Whatever we do to one table, we need to do it to all of them. 1.129.107.54 (talk) 03:01, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
Results table (Manufacturers)
Something that first came to mind:
Pos. | Manufacturer | MON![]() |
SWE![]() |
MEX![]() |
FRA![]() |
ARG![]() |
POR![]() |
ITA![]() |
FIN![]() |
DEU![]() |
TUR![]() |
GBR![]() |
CAT![]() |
AUS![]() |
Points |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
3 | ![]() |
1 | 324 | ||||||||||||
6 | |||||||||||||||
25+8 | |||||||||||||||
Pos. | Manufacturer | MON![]() |
SWE![]() |
MEX![]() |
FRA![]() |
ARG![]() |
POR![]() |
ITA![]() |
FIN![]() |
DEU![]() |
TUR![]() |
GBR![]() |
CAT![]() |
AUS![]() |
Points |
--Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:42, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
Comment
I was imagining something like that. Kovpastish (talk) 21:21, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- We've been over this—we absolutely cannot get rid of the third result. Those cars were eligible to score points at the start of the event and recorded a result even if that result did not contrubute to the WCM score, it was still a result. Plus, there are too many thorny issues that arise if a team has two retirements; removing the third car implies it was never there to begin with. 1.129.107.93 (talk) 21:48, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
- Sure we can. The discussion on the 2019 article shows a clear support to do so. What you claim removing the third car implies is just no true. The entry list includes them, the drivers' table includes them and the co-drivers' table includes them. The manufacturers' standings table sole purpose is to show the outcome of that championship. Listing just the two cars that were credited with results does achieve to show which manufacturer finished where and how. You desperately want that sole table to explain the full story of the entire World Rally Championship and simple isn't suitable for that. We have a combination of tables and proses to detail all eventualities, not just one table. The problematic implication is actually created by including the third car. It implies the manufacturers are credited with a result they are in reality not credited with.Tvx1 00:24, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- They are credited with a result—"Not Classified". It means that they finished the event but their result did not contribute to the team's result. By removing it, you imply that there was never a third car that was eligible. Teams do have the ability to forgo WCM points. When he was driving for Volkswagen, Andreas Mikkelsen contested at least three rallies where he was not nominated to score points. Similarly, they may only enter two cars to begin with. Likewise, you have never addressed what to do if a team has two retirements so that only one of three eligible cars scores points. That's three key scenarios related to the structure of the team and its ability to score points that should be in the matrix.
- "It implies the manufacturers are credited with a result they are in reality not credited with."
- In which parallel universe does "not classified" mean the opposite of not being classified? It means the car recorded a result, but that result was not counted as part of the WCM result.
- "We have a combination of tables and proses to detail all eventualities, not just one table."
- Then why have the results table at all? 1.129.107.93 (talk) 00:34, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- They are credited with a result—"Not Classified". It means that they finished the event but their result did not contribute to the team's result. By removing it, you imply that there was never a third car that was eligible. Teams do have the ability to forgo WCM points. When he was driving for Volkswagen, Andreas Mikkelsen contested at least three rallies where he was not nominated to score points. Similarly, they may only enter two cars to begin with. Likewise, you have never addressed what to do if a team has two retirements so that only one of three eligible cars scores points. That's three key scenarios related to the structure of the team and its ability to score points that should be in the matrix.
- WCM table is the place to point out the manufacturers' standing. It isn't the place to count how many crews are eligible to score points. Because we are going to add points in this table, which is the form of "A+B". Correspondingly, only two cars should be on the table for each manufacturer. As for the problem you mentioned about, i.e. two retirements, just a "Ret" fills in the table will be fine, because it indicates one score points for the manufacturer while the other two both retire. If you are still worried about the situation that one Ret, one DNS/WD/DSQ, I would say this is very unlikey to happen. We don't need to over-think on this. It's not too late to discuss how to solve this problem when it really happens. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 03:23, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- So what happens when, say, Tidemand, Suninen and Lappi retire in Monte Carlo? We'll be in a situation where both teams are implied to have the same number of entries, even though we know that's incorrect. 1.129.107.54 (talk) 03:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- The place where Evans finishes + Ret for Ford; the place where Ogier finishes + Ret for Citroën. There's no problems. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 03:50, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- So what happens when, say, Tidemand, Suninen and Lappi retire in Monte Carlo? We'll be in a situation where both teams are implied to have the same number of entries, even though we know that's incorrect. 1.129.107.54 (talk) 03:41, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
I've just got an idea to fix the problem I mentioned before. As we all known, the crew with more completed distance is listed ahead of the crew with fewer completed distance in the final official result. According to this theory, we can know which car is the second-best car for the manufacturer. For example, Jari-Matti Latvala retired at SS12 while Kris Meeke is disqualified at SS14, that's a DSQ should be filled in that second blank. If Jari-Matti Latvala retired at SS14 while Kris Meeke is disqualified at SS12, then that's a Ret. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 03:50, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- Here's the problem:
- "As we all known, the crew with more completed distance is listed ahead of the crew with fewer completed distance in the final official result."
- You're assuming that anyone reading the article will be familiar with this, but I don't think that fits in with what we can reasonably expect the reader to know. Especially since there are other things—like Power Stage points only being awarded to drivers and co-drivers—which are more practical but need to be detailed in the article.
- And no, explaining the structure of the table to the reader is not an option. If you need to explain the format, then the format is poorly designed. 1.129.107.54 (talk) 05:06, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- "If you need to explain the format, then the format is poorly designed."
- Why do you always strive for perfection? Moreover, the problem I mentioned before seldom happens, which means nearly all the time, the table is uncontroversial becuase it simply lists the best and the second-best car. So, we completely don't need any explaination about how the table works because it is easy to understand. That is to say, this table is not poorly designed. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 06:15, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- "Why do you always strive for perfection?"
- Because it's achievable and because I don't settle for second-best. Especially when I know that more is possible because we're already doing it.
- "the problem I mentioned before seldom happens"
- But it can happen, so shouldn't we have a table format that is flexible enough to account for these scenarios if we know it is possible? The three-car format has worked well through 2017 and 2018. Why change what isn't broken? 1.129.107.54 (talk) 06:35, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- "Why change what isn't broken?"
- Because you suggest we should add points in the table, which is the form of "A+B". If we use the form of "A+B+0", I will support you. However, according to the rule "For any one Manufacturer, a maximum of three nominated drivers may be eligible to score points of which only the 2 best placed will score points according to their relative position." the form of "A+B+0" is misleading. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 06:45, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- Except that the use of "NC" makes it clear that the result the crew achieved did not contribute to to the team's WCM result. It's not misleading at all, and it explains why three crews from one team can score WCD and WCCD points, but only two crews score WCM points. 1.129.107.54 (talk) 07:13, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- Why do we even have to write "Ret"? We can leave the cell blank if no points were scored. So add a sentence "Only scoring finishes are included." or something in that matter. If someone find a better solution to add a third car, that does not make the table too long, I want to see that. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:54, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
- "Why do we even have to write "Ret"? We can leave the cell blank if no points were scored."
- There are several different ways that a crew can fail to score points. Leaving it blank implies that there was no entry in the first place.
- "So add a sentence "Only scoring finishes are included." or something in that matter."
- If you have to explain the format of the article in the article, it's a bad format.
- "If someone find a better solution to add a third car, that does not make the table too long, I want to see that."
- We already have one—including all three cars. Even if all four teams enter three cars, the table is still wider than it is tall. With all four teams entering three cars, the table would have twelve rows; by comparison, a results matrix in a Formula 1 article currently has twenty rows and the matrix in a Supercars article has twenty-four. So I don't really see how you can suggest that the table is too long when other articles need longer tables just to meet the minimum requirements of the article. 1.129.107.159 (talk) 01:30, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
Then it would be like:
Pos. Manufacturer MON SWE MEX FRA ARG POR ITA FIN DEU TUR GBR CAT AUS Points 3 M-Sport Ford WRT
1 324 6 NC 25+8+0 Pos. Manufacturer MON SWE MEX FRA ARG POR ITA FIN DEU TUR GBR CAT AUS Points
Correspondingly, the points line should be like "25+8+0", i.e. "A+B+0". I don't think that extra "+0" is necessary. It is redundant and none of the results sites list points like this. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 03:36, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
- I mean if we have to add points, then the table should be limited to two cars for each manufacturer. If the table should have three cars, then we shouldn't add points. In that way, both WCD and WCCD tables shouldn't add points, which means they should keep the original ones. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 03:42, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
- "In that way, both WCD and WCCD tables shouldn't add points, which means they should keep the original ones."
- I'm okay with that. I think including all three cars is more important than swapping positions for points. The reason I floated the idea of changing the format was to discuss the current format. I'm not a fan of change for the sake of it; if what we're currently doing is the best way of doing it, then that's what we should keep doing. 1.129.106.255 (talk) 04:18, 31 December 2018 (UTC)
- Yes we know very well what you think by now. However what's very clear as well is that no-one agrees with you with regards to third cars. It's high time that you accept that there is a clear preference to remove the third car from these tables.Tvx1 13:10, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
Based on the driver tables, also a possibility:
Pos. | Manufacturer | MON![]() |
SWE![]() |
MEX![]() |
FRA![]() |
ARG![]() |
POR![]() |
ITA![]() |
FIN![]() |
DEU![]() |
TUR![]() |
GBR![]() |
CAT![]() |
AUS![]() |
Points |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
3 | ![]() |
1 25 |
324 | ||||||||||||
6 8 |
|||||||||||||||
NC 0 |
|||||||||||||||
Pos. | Manufacturer | MON![]() |
SWE![]() |
MEX![]() |
FRA![]() |
ARG![]() |
POR![]() |
ITA![]() |
FIN![]() |
DEU![]() |
TUR![]() |
GBR![]() |
CAT![]() |
AUS![]() |
Points |
--Pelmeen10 (talk) 19:46, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
- The question is the third line is impossible to score any points, so why do we add that "0" below? Since the WCM is a whole, I'd prefer to count the total points of each manufacturer scores at each rally. But, as I said before, then it has to be limited to two cars. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 15:14, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
- But given that our opinions are different, it can be accepted as a compromise. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
- I think this is ok. If we use this format, then we, possibly, can remove the key for position scores? I'm talking about this one:
Position 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th Points 25 18 15 12 10 8 6 4 2 1
- Since the points are now in the table it should make it more self-explanatory. Kovpastish (talk) 16:54, 2 January 2019 (UTC)
Entries table
An IP editor wants to change style of the entries table. As a continuation of the previous discussion here, that ended without any conclusive solution. The question asked was Should we have only one entry list or two entry lists?
Unnamelessness Stated their neutralness on the question and suggested just to join the tables without making any other changes and got support from Pelmeen10
An anonymous IP wished more equality between drivers, co-drivers and manufacturers. And that they wished that Indicating manufacturer entries in a more subtle way should be possible. Pelmeen10 disagreed with IP proposals. And they argued if entry list should show who is eligible for manufacturers points. Unnamelessness intervened with a question about Dani Sordos situation in 2018 season, who at Rally Portugal competed without being eligible to score manufacturer points and proposed to use a table with colour backgrounds for rounds column. Kovpastish stated their neutralness, and Tvx1 was against. --Klõps (talk) 15:17, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
My oppinion. Looking at the media clearly the focus is on manufacturers teams drivers. Which driver are signed by which team. These are the drivers that compete for the rally wins. Then there are private entries who do not compete for manufacturers points. They usually take part at a limited number of rallies and usually even do not compete for points. They are mostly using cars from previous seasons. The coverage they get from media is much less than drivers contracted by manufacturer teams. Looking at the 2018 season, we see that there are 13 such drivers and 10 of them competed at one rally each. Now joining those tables would create really confusing table were full season drivers are mixed with drivers who competed for one event. For me it makes no sense. --Klõps (talk) 15:33, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- The split-table format is a bad hangover from the early- and mid-2000s when the sport had a series of complex rules designed to allow private teams to enter as manufacturers separately to manufacturer-backed teams. It was mostly done to compensate for a lack of manufacturer-backed teams. Those rules have long since been simplified, so the table format should be changed as well.
- "Looking at the media clearly the focus is on manufacturers teams drivers."
- Making the article proportional to media coverage runs the risk of introducing WP:RECENTISM and WP:UNDUE. In the eyes of the FIA, all World Rally Cars are considered part of the RC1 category of Group R; their crews are Priority 1 crews. We cannot and should not be treating them differently based on whether or not they score manufacturer points.
- "Now joining those tables would create really confusing table were full season drivers are mixed with drivers who competed for one event."
- Motorsport championship articles regularly do this without a problem. Case in point, 2018 MotoGP season.
- "Unnamelessness intervened with a question about Dani Sordos situation in 2018 season, who at Rally Portugal competed without being eligible to score manufacturer points and proposed to use a table with colour backgrounds for rounds column."
- I think his comments make it pretty clear that he supported the use of coloured backgrounds and was asking the question about Sordo for clarity, not because he was proposing that the colours only be limited to manufacturer-backed entries. 1.144.105.6 (talk) 20:03, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- For the record, the IP is Prisonermonkeys and is the same IP that took part in the earlier discussion. I disagree with the notion that the format should be changes. Despite the evolution of the rules, there is still clear separation with between manufacturer and non-manufacturer points eligible entries. It is clear from the recent edits to the articles that the one table format does create confusion for our readers. The two table format is still the most efficient and clear format to list the two groups of entries the sport deals with. Moreover using colored cells as sole means of conveying information is, as a user like Prisonermonekys suffering from a form of colorblindness should know, very poor practice per MOS:ACCESS. Lastly, the MotoGP article is not a good example as that sports does not make such a clear distinction between manufacturer and non-manufacturer points entries. In MotoGP every bike entered having been manufacturer by a certain manufacturer is eligible to score points for the manufacturer standings, with the highest finisher on a bike from that manufacturer scoring a result.Tvx1 20:21, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- "Despite the evolution of the rules, there is still clear separation with between manufacturer and non-manufacturer points eligible entries."
- Not in the eyes of the FIA. All World Rally Cars are classified as RC1 and given Priority 1 status. A stage at the 2018 Wales Rally GB was cancelled due to an accident that took time to be cleared away, but RC1 crews are Priority 1 crews, so it had to be run in such a way that the RC1 crews could complete it.
- "Moreover using colored cells as sole means of conveying information is, as a user like Prisonermonekys suffering from a form of colorblindness should know, very poor practice per MOS:ACCESS."
- And as I have explained to you on multiple occasions, colourblindness works on the combinations of colours—red and green rather than red alone. There are some rare conditions that mean people cannot distinguish between colours at all (I once knew someone who could not see the colour violet; they just saw white in its place), so if you want to form an argument based on MOS:ACCESS, there are much bigger issues at hand that apply across Wikipedia and this is not the venue for that discussion.
- Furthermore, the move to a single-table format does not require the shading. There are other ways of representing it.
- "It is clear from the recent edits to the articles that the one table format does create confusion for our readers."
- It is equally clear from some of that editor's comments that they don't understand the issues that they are talking about. He seems to think that the table was explicitly for manufacturer-entered cars, like the first table in the split-table format, even though the table was clearly for all RC1 entries. 1.144.105.6 (talk) 21:14, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- Furthermore, the move to a single-table format does not require the shading. There are other ways of representing it.
- Articles should be written based on coverage. In any sport the coverage is mostly media. I doubt that even in history books these non-manufacturer drivers would get the same attention as full time drivers competing for the championship. There is no undue weight as all the drivers are listed and no one has been left out. The question is how they are sorted. I don't see any problem on sorting the main protagonists of the season before than those privateers that only compete at a limited number of rallies. I think the system as it is gives a clear overview that a person reading the season review is looking for. Mixing things up because of some strange claims of equality between drivers and co-drivers sounds unnecessary. As said before. MotoGP has different rules and article there definitely has accessibility issues with green and red used for markings, but this as said goes under Other stuff exists. And on RC1 argument – we are talking about how to present the season article, as said before all the cars competing under RC1 rules are listed, not a single one has been left out.
- NB! I don't think that proving me incompetent (which seems to be one of Your main arguments through all the discussions we have had) can help You to prove your arguments. --Klõps (talk) 22:28, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- "I don't see any problem on sorting the main protagonists of the season before than those privateers that only compete at a limited number of rallies."
Because you're assuming that they're the "protagonists" before the championship even begins. Citroën withdrew from the sport in 2006 and their team was run by Kronos Racing. Although Citroën gave permission for the Citroën World Rally Team name to be used, they were effectively a privateer team. Likewise M-Sport, who only got factory backing in 2017. There are circumstances in which privateer teams can compete with—and beat—manufacturers.
Here's s hypothetical for you: what would you have us do if Marcus Grönholm finishes on the podium in Sweden? He is entered separately to Toyota's entries and ineligible to score manufacturer points. However, we can reasonably infer that he would get significant media coverage. I know that's a hypothetical and thus speculation, but your argument for the split format is that manufacturer entries will be the most competitive. What would you do if a non-manufacturer entry is competitive, such at Craig Breen at the 2017 Monte Carlo Rally?
- "And on RC1 argument – we are talking about how to present the season article, as said before all the cars competing under RC1 rules are listed, not a single one has been left out."
Except that in the eyes of the FIA and rally organisers, all RC1 cars are the same; some are just eligible for separate points. If the regulations classify them the same way, we should too.
- "I don't think that proving me incompetent (which seems to be one of Your main arguments through all the discussions we have had) can help You to prove your arguments."
I'm not trying to prove you're incompetent. I know you're not. I'm simply trying to highlight that at least part of your opposition to the single-table format is based on a lack of understanding about that format. My question is thus: if you understood the single-table format, would you still be opposed to it?
- "Mixing things up because of some strange claims of equality between drivers and co-drivers sounds unnecessary."
It's not strange at all. Check any entry list—all WRC cars are listed as "P(riority) 1" and all WRC-2 cars are "P2". 1.144.105.6 (talk) 22:51, 25 January 2019 (UTC)
- I would like to hear what @Unnamelessness, @Pelmeen10 and @Kovpastish have to say about this since they were all involved in the original discussion. 1.144.107.217 (talk) 21:32, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
- As I said before, I am neutral on this. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 05:26, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness — I'm afraid neutrality does not really help here. We need a consensus one way or the other. We have got one in favour, two opposed and at least one neutral. The next stage is a third opinion or an RfC, assuming we can get one (they don't always get responses in the allotted time).
- As it is, the rules clearly state that all WRC cars are Priority 1 cars regardless of their eligibility for points. It is written into everything from the sporting regulations down to the operations manual for an event; for example, if a stage cannot be completed, organisers have to try and get all P1 cars through before they abandon it (case in point, the 2018 Rally GB). They're not allowed to run manufacturer cars but not WRC privateers. The FIA makes no special distinction between manufacturer and non-manufacturer cars.
- Secondly, there is a distinction between who is entering a car and who is operating it. This may seem more evident in the WRC-2 at the moment, but Marcus Grönholm's Rally Sweden entry is a privateer in name only; Toyota Gazoo Racing is overseeing everything else. The distinction between manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries is no longer clear-cut.
- Thirdly, the WRC-2 has multiple classes within it, with crews competing for different titles despite using the same regulations within each class. No such distinction exists within the WRC(-1). There is a manufacturers' championship, but no separate championship for privateer entries. To separate the entries places undue emphasis on manufacturer teams as those crews are eligible for their own individual championships. All that is needed is an indication of which teams are manufacturers, which can be achieved with a single sentence.
- Finally, as I have stated before, the split format is unnecessary and redundant, a result of complex decade-old rules that were designed to allow privateers to enter as manufacturers; rules that no longer exist, and so splitting the table makes no sense.
- In short, Wikipedia is the only place that makes such an overt distinction between manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries. It offers no discernable benefit to an article, is at odds with the sport's governance, and weighs the article down with redundant markup. 1.144.107.50 (talk) 06:05, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- Ultimately I'd vote for two seperate tables, the way we've had it for years is fine.Kovpastish (talk) 14:50, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Kovpastish — First, consensus is not a vote. Secondly, is there a reason you feel that way? We could easily apply the single-table format to other articles and "we've always done it that way" is not really an argument. 1.144.107.179 (talk) 19:19, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- I was neutral when this was first discussed and would like to say I still am. The only way I could describe why I lean toward two tables is because a "major entries" table includes entries that can affect both manufacturers' and drivers' World Rally Championships which the article essentially is covering. Kovpastish (talk) 20:59, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Kovpastish — a single table with something to mark the manufacturer entries would do exactly the same thing. Plus, we would have the added benefit of including the sort function (like Formula 1 entry lists) which would further enable distinctions between manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries. 1.144.107.179 (talk) 22:15, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Adding the sortable function
@Unnamelessness, @Pelmeen10, @Kovpastish, @Tvx1, @Klõps — I've been playing around with some of the markup and if I have done this right, I have added the sortable function to the table. It's a bit of a kludge because I've borrowed from another article, but if I have done it right you should be able to sort based on manufacturer, entrant number and rounds. Most importantly, I have worked the rounds column so that when you sort in descending order, all of the manufacturer entries will be listed first and all of the manufacturer entries at the bottom of the table. This removes the need for two tables but still allows the reader to organise the table based on their preference. The net effect is that it satisfies both sides of the argument.
Manufacturer | Entrant | Car | Tyre | Crew details | |||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
No. | Driver name | Co-driver name | Rounds | ||||
Citroën | ![]() |
Citroën C3 WRC | M | 1 4 |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() |
All All |
![]() |
Citroën DS3 WRC | M | 20 | ![]() |
![]() |
1 | |
Ford | ![]() |
Ford Fiesta WRC | M | 3 7 33 |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
All All 1–2 |
37 | ![]() |
![]() |
2 | ||||
![]() |
M | 92 | ![]() |
![]() |
2 | ||
Hyundai | ![]() |
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC | M | 6 11 19 89 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
3–4 All 1–2 All |
Toyota | ![]() |
Toyota Yaris WRC | M | 5 8 10 |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() |
All All All |
![]() |
M | 68 | ![]() |
![]() |
2 |
I have to stress that it's not perfect—but it is a start. 1.144.105.152 (talk) 11:06, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure that I could apply this to driver names (so they're alphabetical), car numbers (so the table is sequential) and rounds (so we can sort based on the number of appearances), but it's a big job and it's too late to start right now. There is a lot of potentisl here. 1.144.107.158 (talk) 11:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter to me. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 05:24, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness — would you be interested in applying the sort function to results matrices? It might be possible to give the reader the chance to sort based on the most recent results, but it would require some complex, extensive markup. I would have to apply everything to a sortable entry list first (since I already have most of what I need in place there). 1.144.108.17 (talk) 08:37, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- I just did a experiment based on 2018 tables, and I think it is too complex and messy. Plus, it will take a lot of effort (I spent an hour modifying the 2018 tables). -- Unnamelessness (talk) 12:52, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness — would you be interested in applying the sort function to results matrices? It might be possible to give the reader the chance to sort based on the most recent results, but it would require some complex, extensive markup. I would have to apply everything to a sortable entry list first (since I already have most of what I need in place there). 1.144.108.17 (talk) 08:37, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Why would it be necessary to sort drivers based on their car numbers? It's a random number. It's as useful as to sort drivers by their names last letter. Sorting does not give any meaningful new info there. Also in the rounds column, adding invisible parameter is kind of an easteregg. And we already have drivers sorted by entrants. So there's no value added by adding the sortable function here. I do think that Season summary should be sortable as there the function helps to see each driver wins listed, each team wins listed etc. --Klõps (talk) 20:26, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- "Why would it be necessary to sort drivers based on their car numbers?"
Some users prefer sequential numbers. You might have noticed some activity before Monte Carlo where someone was swapping Toyota and Hyundai around because Toyota's lowest number is 5 and Hyundai's is 6.
- "Also in the rounds column, adding invisible parameter is kind of an easteregg."
It doesn't have to be called the "rounds" column. 1.144.108.69 (talk) 21:58, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- Still does not make any sense. Car number is a random number. Some may prefer drivers listed by their height also. This is a really niche thing. --Klõps (talk) 22:24, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- Well, the rules clearly state that all RC1 cars are treated equally, so the split table needs to go. None of the sources we use for entry lists split RC1 cars like that. 1.129.105.42 (talk) 08:25, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- So You run out of arguments and just said that wikipedia article has to follow FIA rules for rallies? There is no inequality, all the drivers are listed. The question is how are they sorted. It is logical, that based on the media coverage, the reader wants to get on overview which are the main drivers for the teams. Structuring the information based on different factors for the reader is the way things have been. There are other sources also not only official entry lists (btw entry list do not treat drivers equally, but list them by the championship standing). If we want to make all the drivers equal as they are in the rally entry lists, the table should look like this...
- All drivers sorted alphabetically, so that all RC1 cars are treated equally as rules say. --Klõps (talk) 20:42, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- "So You run out of arguments and just said that wikipedia article has to follow FIA rules for rallies?"
- No, I'm pointing out that the sources distinguish between Priority 1 and Priority 2 cars. All WRC cars are P1 cars regardless of their eligibility to score points. Separating them implies the existence of multiple classes within P1, like the WRC-2 and WRC-2 Pro within P2.
- Show me a source that says manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries are treated differently in running a rally and we can talk. Because right now, your position is not supported by any reliabke sources that I am aware of. 1.129.105.124 (talk) 00:54, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
Do not edit war! These tables are same in all the WRC season articles. I restore the table to the format that all the other articles have. Do not change it before we have reached consensus. --Klõps (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- And regarding Your last comment. The way the drivers are sorted does not in any way imply that there are multiple classes. The table has one headline Entries and under it drivers are sorted first the drivers eligible to score manufacturer points, because the media coverage (autosport.com. wrc.com eurosport.com etc) the focus is on who is contracted for which team. The reader gets clear overview of the drivers market situation. Then we have sorted all the drivers not racing for manufacturer points. These are private drivers, young drivers getting the change to try WRC cars etc. Looking at 2018 season, there were 14 such private entries and all together they have 18 participations. 1.3 rallies per entry! You can clearly see why it is useful to sort by this category first. The way drivers are sorted in no way imply that these drivers are treated differently in rallies. --Klõps (talk) 12:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- Again, where is your source? All of the sources clearly state that all WRC cars are Priority 1 crews regardless of manufacturer points.
- "The way the drivers are sorted does not in any way imply that there are multiple classes."
- Except that it does because multiple tables are used for just such a purpose at 2019 World Rally Championship-2 where there is a clear division in Priority 2 cars. 14:27, 5 February 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.144.110.255 (talk)
- Again, where is your source? All of the sources clearly state that all WRC cars are Priority 1 crews regardless of manufacturer points.
DO NOT EDIT WAR! I see that You are edit warring at many pages using Your dynamic IP. I will report this if You continue this! --Klõps (talk) 15:46, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not some official database that has to follow official FIA policies. Articles must present information in the most simplest and clearest form. Your table format does not do this and has clear accessibility issues as You have been told above.
- The sources You talk about are entry lists for rallies. Some of them list drivers by number, some use championship order, some list drivers by team etc. It is really strange to say that Wikipedia table format has to follow sources and official rules from some international organisation. What is in the table is all in the sources. The question is how is it presented. Right now, all over the project pages, the table format is as it is. Before You start to edit war on one season article we must reach consensus here first. Using edit warring to get things the way you want is not the solution.
- The table as it is in the projects season articles DOES NOT imply in any way that the cars are not in the same class, same priority etc what ever You think. To say that is as logical as to say that sorting table by manufacturer implies that drivers driving for different manufacturers are not treated equally. How many times I must repeat that only You are thinking that there are two classes. Nothing in the article says that. Have a look at 2019 World Rally Championship-2 this is how two separate classes look like – different sections with subheadings and prose about the separate classes. I posted above how a table should look actually if it was fully according to Your demands. --Klõps (talk) 16:33, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- "The sources You talk about are entry lists for rallies."
- And the sporting regulations and the operations manual, the guide to how a rally is to be run. You have not been able to provide a source that contradicts these.
- "I posted above how a table should look actually if it was fully according to Your demands."
- No, you didn't. That looks nothing like what I have proposed and you know it.
- "To say that is as logical as to say that sorting table by manufacturer implies that drivers driving for different manufacturers are not treated equally."
- I suggested no such thing, so once again you are trying to argue against a point that you clearly don't understand. 1.129.105.65 (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
For the 3rd time! No edit warring to make the changes you like. I will report this! Klõps (talk) 19:23, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
For the 100th time! — provide a reliable source to support your changes. 1.129.105.65 (talk) 19:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- And to answer Your last comment. You say that You are following the sporting regulations and the operations manual, the guide to how a rally is to be run. This is simply not right approach. This is Wikipedia article, not a bureaucratic form. This wiki article is not the document under which rallies are held. This article does not have to follow the rules under which rallies are held.
- This is an season article that has to in a simple and easy to understand format summarise the season.
- The entry list of rallies do not support Your way of reorganising the table. Everything from the entry lists are in the table both in the project accepted style and in your style. The difference is how the information is presented. In Your style sorted first by manufacturer. In project style first by eligibility to score manufacturer points and then by manufacturer.
- The table above which I posted is how entry lists are at wrc.com. This is exactly as you want things to be. Drivers are all equal, sorted by name.
- And we finish with personal attack again how I do not understand what I am talking about. I do understand. You are stuck in Your way of thinking that the way table is sorted somehow implies that there are multiple classes. You are the only one who thinks this way. You just repeat Yourself over and over. --Klõps (talk) 19:48, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- How many times I have to repeat the issue is how tables are sorted. All the information is there that is in the sources. It just sorted in a different way. This is Wikipedia, the table does not have to be sorted according to FIA rules. Stop this bureaucratic nonsense. This is not an argument! --Klõps (talk) 19:51, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- How many times do I need to ask you for a source to support your claims? Every source that we have shows that P1 crews are treated equally. The article has a bigger scope than the manufacturers' championship.
- "This is Wikipedia, the table does not have to be sorted according to FIA rules. Stop this bureaucratic nonsense."
- This "bureaucratic nonsense" is Wikipedia policy—articles must be supported by reliable sources. Show me the reliable source that says manufacturer entries are treated differently to non-manufacturer entries. Because everything that I have says that all Priority 1 crews must complete a stage for it to be valid. If a stage is cancelled before all P1 crews complete it, the stage does not count; if there is a position change among crews and the stage is cancelled, the position change is undone. This is precisely what happened at the 2018 Wales Rally GB, when the final stage was interrupted and run in a way to allow all P1 crews to complete it because championships were on the line. If your concern is who scored manufacturer points, that is what thd results table is for. 1.129.105.65 (talk) 20:07, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- How many times do I need to ask you for a source to support your claims? Every source that we have shows that P1 crews are treated equally. The article has a bigger scope than the manufacturers' championship.
- NO the bureaucratic nonsense is Your claim that wikipedia article has to follow FIA rally rules.
- I repeat the table has all the same information (from the same sources) in both formations. Only organized in different order. The sources are the same. You can't claim that the table has to be sorted according to the FIA rules. This is bureaucratic nonsense.
- There isn't anything in the tables, in the current format, that implies that the crews are not treated equally and that they aren't all at RC1 category. --Klõps (talk) 20:16, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- By splitting the tables, you suggest that there is a greater distinction between manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries than there actually is. Especially since 2019 World Rally Championship-2 uses a split table because it is a multi-class championship. 1.129.105.144 (talk) 21:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- In both ways the table consists of all the information from the sources. So stop playing this stupid game and demanding sources while there is no new information added. Only thing that changes is the format of the table.
- No, splitting the table does not suggest that there are any distinction between the crews. This is only the way to sort the information based on coverage. This sorting is done to give the reader the best overview of the drivers market in the season. The goal of the article is to simple and well structured summary of the season. Wikipedia is not a database. This here is a summary based on the sources. First are the main drivers. If You noticed almost all the coverage between the seasons that WRC got was about which driver will be signed by which team. Then there are private entries. As said above there were 14 of those crews in 2018 and 13 of them only took of part one rally each. Sorting them together with full time drivers only creates confusion for the readers. Well structured table is better option than to strictly follow FIA rulebooks. I repeat this is a summary article not some official database. Looking at 2019 WRC-2 we can clearly see how there are two different headings and the prose clarifying the situation. More over there are results tables showing that the points are counted in two different classes. This is different than the situation at the 2019 WRC season. --Klõps (talk) 22:12, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
- "So stop playing this stupid game and demanding sources while there is no new information added."
The FIA consider all P1 cars to be equal regardless of points eligibility. They do not separate them. If a stage is interrupted and cannot be restarted before all P1 cars complete it, the results do not count. Separating them in the entry list implies that they are treated differently from the start. I would like to see a source that says they are treated differently because the article is about MORE than the manufacturers' championship.
- "More over there are results tables showing that the points are counted in two different classes."
If there are points tables that show who scored points in which championship, why is it so important that the entry lists show who was eligible to score points? Surely the first priority of the entry list is to show who entered.
- "Well structured table is better option than to strictly follow FIA rulebooks."
I agree that a well-structured table works best. And a single well-structured table is precisely what I have provided. You are the one insisting on two tables that unnecessarily split the entries and over-emphasise the importance of the manufacturers' championship. 1.129.105.169 (talk) 00:18, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- STOP edit warring. This is not the way to make changes. You changed something. It was reverted. We discussed. Theres no consensus supporting Your changes to project standard. It is really hard, because of Your dynamic IP, but I will report this. --Klõps (talk) 05:18, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- How many times I have told You that the way tables are sorted does not imply that the crews are not equal. There is no separation etc etc etc. It is just how table is sorted. This is nonsense argument. This can be said on every way the table is sorted. If sorted by manufacturer one can ask why this manufacturer is sorted before are they are they treated separately. The solution for this problem would be to remove the table at all. Because in any list somebody is in front of somebody else.
- Again all the same information is in the table, it is just sorted differently. FIA rules aren't source, because this is Wikipedia. Wiki articles do not need to follow rules from some international organisation. WP:NOT. This is not an official entry list.
- Having no structure is not well structured. For the simple overview for the reader we sort drivers who are getting the most coverage before. And private drivers (out of 14 private drivers in 2018 season 13 participated in 1 rally each). It is logical to sort by this parameter first. --Klõps (talk) 05:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- "Theres no consensus supporting Your changes to project standard."
- Your claim of consensus is specious at best. You have two in support, one opposed and one completely neutral. Furthermore, you have been unable to provide any sources to support the division of the table. Indeed, all of the reliable sources that we have clearly show that P1 cars are treated equally. I am simply restoring the version of the article that the sources support. While a consensus is important, it cannot contradict the sources.
- "FIA rules aren't source, because this is Wikipedia."
- The FIA rules are a source because they dictate how rallies are run. If a rally is not run according to the rules, the result can be invalidated. All P1 cars are afforded the same privileges regardless of their manufacturer status and the article should reflect this. You cannot simply ignore a source because it is inconvenient or because you don't like it.
- "How many times I have told You that the way tables are sorted does not imply that the crews are not equal."
- Saying it does not make it true. 1.129.105.227 (talk) 06:46, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Stop edit Warring!!!
- Its nonsense. How table is sorted is not question about sources. The official entry tables are not sources supporting you. The FIA rules do not say haw Wikipedia article must be written. I have repeated this over and over and over.
- Stop edit Warring!!!
- There is long time project standard. You do not have any support nor any argument based reason except that You do not like it!.
- Saying Wiki article must be written according to FIA rules is pure bureaucracy. FIA rules in any way do not define how drivers in groups are ordered. In the rallies they use seeded order based on championship standing.
- There is nothing that implies that the way tables are sorted does not imply that the crews are not equal. You have not argued against it. You say that Saying it does not make it true this is pure I don't like it style argument. --Klõps (talk) 07:02, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- You want to change a long time project standard that is used over on large umber of season articles. This must be discussed and agreed here before. You just can't take one article and edit war on it, because You do not like how things are. You did Your thing. It was reverted. In discussion we have weak consensus keeping the project standard. If You want to change it make clear proposal here before! --Klõps (talk) 07:22, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- "If You want to change it make clear proposal here before!"
- Do you honestly have no idea what I am proposing after all this time? I am proposing that we use one table for entries, not two.
- I have raised this at WP:DRN. Please contribute there. 1.144.104.87 (talk) 22:32, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Again, proving me incompetent is one of Your main arguments. I do understand Your view and I am against. You are pushing for bureaucratic indiscriminate presentation of the lists. In wikipedia all the information should be presented in organized and sorted way. You are not pushing for to join the tables, You are pushing for the one table to be sorted on your preferred way with coloured key added to the table.
- You are calling the project standard way unsourced. This is absurd. Both Your way and current way have all the same information from the same sources, only in different order. You are claiming that Your way is following the fia rules also absurd, there are no FIA rules how Wikipedia article should list WRC crews. You claim that the current way implies there to be more than one class and that the RC1 class crews aren't treated equally. Again there is nothing in the article that suggest this. You are the only one who has the problem and sees it this way. Its clear that You just don't like it. --Klõps (talk) 17:00, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
I'm not the one sitting on an article reverting changes on sight and refusing to take part in the dispute resoltion process. That's not how consensus-building works. 1.144.104.174 (talk) 19:38, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
- "You are not pushing for to join the tables, You are pushing for the one table to be sorted on your preferred way with coloured key added to the tab."
No, I want to remove all mention of manufacturer points from the table entirely. I am, however, proposing a single table with the sortable function as a WP:COMPROMISE. You are the one who insists that a very weak consensus somehow overrides the objections of everyone and gives you the right to unilaterally revert edits on sight and are exempt from the negotiation process. 1.144.104.15 (talk) 00:02, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
The purpose of an "entrant" column in WRC-2
I would just like to ask -- if entry in the World Rally Championship-2 is dictated by the driver entering, why put an "entrant" column? Because all it'll do is create a duplicate "driver" column in the entries table, and we don't need that. Besides, even though we know the details relating to which drivers rally for which teams (i.e. Takamoto Katsuta rallies for Tommi Mäkinen Racing, Jari Huttunen is going to rally for Printsport, Nikolay Gryazin for Sports Racing Technologies, etc.), the entry lists that we go by do not publish the teams. It seems to me as though that's actually a rule; look at Katsuta at Monte Carlo. He's not entered in the WRC-2 there, yet he is entered as "Tommi Mäkinen Racing." At Sweden, a rally in which he's participating for WRC-2 points, he's just entered as himself, despite evidence to the contrary.
Sorry to rant for a little bit, but I would just like to know if we still need an "entrant" column, considering this. Johannes275 (talk) 16:29, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Johannes275 Sometimes, it's the co-driver that enters the rally as the entrant. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 06:11, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness That hasn't happened in any case yet. Well, either way, the point is, the team ISN'T the entrant, even if they are the ones entering the car. It seems to be mandated by the rules that a part of the crew is the entrant. If this didn't exist, we'd see Tommi Mäkinen Racing be the entrant for Katsuta's car at Sweden. Johannes275 (talk) 14:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Johannes275 I can tell you that does happen based on my experience in editing 2018 rally pages althrough it is not not very often, which means the entrant is either driver or co-driver (sometimes pseudonym as well). As a result, we have to distinguish them despite the fact that it is the driver that enters a rally as the entrant in majority. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 13:01, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness You haven't yet addressed what I'm talking about. I know that the co-driver is sometimes the entrant, but that's not what I'm arguing. What I'm arguing is that, an "entrant" column usually distinguishes not just entrants entering as just the driver or co-driver, but also teams, like Tommi Makinen Racing, or Printsport, or the Toksport World Rally Team, or what have you. I know it has only been two rallies, but so far none of the WRC-2 entrants are entering under a team name, even if said team is very clearly present at the rally helping the crew out. We can argue about entering as a driver or co-driver, but the fact of the matter is, they both indicate an independent entry. And since it seems to be required that all entrants in WRC-2 enter as independents, regardless of which team runs the car, I am wondering whether or not we need an "entrant" column. Besides, both drivers and co-drivers are distinguished in their own columns, so there isn't much need to display them twice in my opinion.
- @Johannes275 Whatever it is a private crew or a team-entried crew, the first thing they have to do is to register, which requires an entrant. Without the entrant, you cannot enter any rally. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 05:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
Remove the column. FIA probably has decided not to use team names in Championship 2 this season. Only exception in the list is Pietarinen, and in his case the team name is speculation. --Klõps (talk) 20:48, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Klõps You do have read any official entry list and do understand the rule, right? -- Unnamelessness (talk) 05:04, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- Removing the column implies that all crews are entered/operated by the same team, which we know to be untrue. 1.144.108.227 (talk) 05:33, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- In both, Monte Carlo and Sweden, official lists have all WRC-2 (not pro) drivers with the drivers name written in the competitors column. Takamoto Katsuta/Daniel Barritt are listed as racing for Takamoto Katsuta not for Tommi Mäkinen Racing (the team that prepares their car) etc. That means in this class there are no teams. The column Entrant is the copy of the column Driver. These can be merged with no info lost. --Klõps (talk) 22:51, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness @Klõps I have a very reputable source known as the 2019 FIA WRC Sporting Regulations, Section 8.3.1 of which confirms exactly what I am talking about. Section 8.3.1 specifically states that "Registration in the WRC-2 Championship...must be made in the name of a driver holding a current and valid competitor's licence." That means that, like Klõps said, there will not be any teams entering the championship, because the rules require the driver name.
I just made this edit in the WRC-2 section of the page, but I made a disclaimer at the top, stating that they are all independent entries per the regulations.
- @Johannes275 You still didn't get my points.
- a) Per 8.3.1, yes, no teams any more. But no co-drivers or pseudonyms as well?
- b) Removing/merging the column cannot distinguish the situation of whether the entrant is diver, co-driver or pseudonym.
- c) Removing/merging the column implies the crew no longer need to register, which obviously aganists the regulation.
- d) Removing/merging the column is a big modification, which requires a consensus. And, clearly, there is no consensus. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 08:32, 1 February 2019 (UTC)
- The change should be for this format only (WRC-2 2019). It's pointless to have two separate columns that are exactly the same except the title. It is wiki article not a bureaucratic form. If FIA itself said that in the WRC-2 in 2019 format the registration will be made in the name of the driver then why to keep the column that is the result of FIA coping the drivers name to the entrants column?
- a) who said anything about removing co-drivers column?
- b) right now its 100% driver. As also FIA rules say. Pseudonym equals (co-)driver. Why would somebody using pseudonym be treated differently?
- c) It's wiki article not an official bureaucratic form. We can simplify things and do not need to follow strict FIA rules.
- d) Clearly there is a question why we need two columns that duplicate each other? I understand Your arguments, but is it still necessary to follow the FIA rules here? Could we use prose to address all these concerns? --Klõps (talk) 21:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
- Using prose to explain the rule is not a good idea. If the explanation is inappropriate or incorrect, ambiguity will arise. Nothing is better than following the format of the source. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 09:16, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
- Remove the column and add an explanation to the "(rule) changes" section. Pelmeen10 (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Discussion of Table Format
There is discussion in progress of the table format at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#2019_World_Rally_Championship_2 . Any editors are welcome to come to the Dispute Resolution Noticeboard and take part in moderated discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:40, 17 February 2019 (UTC)
- As per discussion at the DRN, several proposals for the table have been put forward. I have put them on my sandbox page to keep them centralised. The first of these is the shaded cells format where manufacturer points eligibility is indicated by one or more shaded cells. The second is an icon system, indicating which entries are eligible to score points with an icon (I stress that this is more of a concept than anything else; both tyres and points eligibility are indicated with an "M"). Are there any other formats that editors would like to see put together?
- I'm going to tag @Robert McClenon since he volunteered to moderate the discussion at WP:DRN, and @Klõps since he was involved in the discussion there. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 09:38, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Shaded cells look bad and i won't support that. TBH the second option does not look that good either, just a bunch of coloured M-s everywhere. I lean towards using the old format. Pelmeen10 (talk) 18:34, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
- Form should follow function. As I have repeatedly said in the past, splitting the tables overstates the importance of the manufacturer entries.
- More importantly, the line between manufacturer and non-manufacturer is nowhere near as clear-cut as it once was. Marcus Gronholm entered Rally Sweden, but the whole operation was run by Toyota Gazoo Racing. His name appeared on the entry list and on the car, but that's it. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 19:49, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
I have also created a third style, the rally article style, which is based om the entry lists used in rally articles such as 2019 Rally Sweden. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 08:46, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
UPDATE: I've added bold markup to the rally artivle style. It occured to me that the current format of the table is largely derived from Formula 1 championship articles and only loosely adapted to fit the needs of the WRC. It's this that I've been pushing back against, but then I realised that I could instead run with it. Formula 1 race articles use (such as 2018 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix) use bold font in the race results table to indicate who scored points. That could be adapted to fit here—bold entries indicate WCM eligibility. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 09:52, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- From my personal prospective, I would lean on with shaded cells, but I am also okay with the rally article style (but it may require more effort to optimize). The icon system is shocking, especially with the icon that contains light-yellow-coloured background and black-colouered M in the "Points" column and still need someone to explain that M means manufacturer cars. That's just making the thing bad, I am afraid. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 14:20, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness — I stress that the icon system is just a mock-up. If we were to choose it, we could re-design the icons to be something more palatable. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:26, 22 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Klõps — are you going to contribute here? Moving the discussion to the WikiProject was your idea. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 05:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- There's nothing new here. I'm sorry, but none of the proposals look convincing for me and will not convince me that mixing up manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries would be step forward. In the end of the season there will be 15 to 20 private entries, which will make the unsorted table massive and confusing for the reader. Option 1 & 2 are basically the same with 2 being the development without invisible parameter for manufacturer points, but the title "points" is confusing, and the M icon borrowed from tyre markings... Option 3 is even bigger step backwards, from sorted and organised to totally unorganised. It's totally against the principle of making things easy and clearly understandable for the reader. After all wikipedia is not a database. --Klõps (talk) 22:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- How predictable. You agree to the discussion at DRN, propose moving to to the WikiProject and then immediately dismiss it once you get here. This is exactly what I suggested would happen and what @Robert McClenon described as a legitimate concern.
- "Option 3 is even bigger step backwards, from sorted and organised to totally unorganised."
- It is organised—entries are arranged sequentially by car number (which gives added stability in future when numbers change). Nobody is grouped together based on manufacturer so there is no over-emphasis on manufacturers. You yourself repeatedly referred to the need for the table style to be consistent with other tables, and it is; it is consistent with the 2019 rally articles. The bold font highlights the manufacturer entries without being distracting (as opposed to highlighting non-manufacturer entries), using a method with a proven track record in other articles. This table was specifically drafted to address all of your concerns, so for you to dismiss it so quickly tells me that you never intended to agree to any proposal.
- As for the sorting, that can always be applied separately. It just takes me a long time to do the markup. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 23:20, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- How predictable. You agree to the discussion at DRN, propose moving to to the WikiProject and then immediately dismiss it once you get here. This is exactly what I suggested would happen and what @Robert McClenon described as a legitimate concern.
- There's nothing new here. I'm sorry, but none of the proposals look convincing for me and will not convince me that mixing up manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries would be step forward. In the end of the season there will be 15 to 20 private entries, which will make the unsorted table massive and confusing for the reader. Option 1 & 2 are basically the same with 2 being the development without invisible parameter for manufacturer points, but the title "points" is confusing, and the M icon borrowed from tyre markings... Option 3 is even bigger step backwards, from sorted and organised to totally unorganised. It's totally against the principle of making things easy and clearly understandable for the reader. After all wikipedia is not a database. --Klõps (talk) 22:28, 25 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Klõps — are you going to contribute here? Moving the discussion to the WikiProject was your idea. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 05:01, 24 February 2019 (UTC)
- All in all, I still feel that keeping the two table is the best way forward. It's still the most efficient way to present the sets of information and we haven't had any complaints by any readers to the contrary.Tvx1 13:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- "It's still the most efficient way to present the sets of information"
- What are you basing that on? I've already pointed out the redundancy of having two tables, the decade-old rules that no longer apply, the misleading nature of the split format and the changes in the organisational structure of teams that mean the distinction between entries is significantly smaller than it used to be. If you're going to oppose the changes, could you at least present an argument as to why?
- "we haven't had any complaints by any readers to the contrary"
- This whole discussion is based on a reader complaining. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 16:58, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
The Way Forward?
Since I was asked to close the discussion at DRN and bring it here, I will ask everyone what they think is the best way to go forward to resolve this. Option 1 is discussion. This will work if there is the possibility of compromise, or of new ideas. I think that User:Mclarenfan17 has presented some new ideas, although it appears that User:Klõps has dismissed them, but I will ask everyone again. Option 2 is an RFC. We do not need to list options that are known not to work, either because they are contrary to policy, such as edit-warring, or because they don't work, such as shouting matches. (I didn't say that anyone has tried those yet.) You may describe an option 3 as a way to go forward also. So, do we continue discussion, do we use an RFC, or what? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:41, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon — I think continuing the discussion is the right way to go. We have had a few extra voices in @Pelmeen10 and @Unnamelessness but we haven't really discussed everything because there has been no chance to explore what they would consider an acceptable substitute. If they contribute we're still in a stalemate, then it might be time for an RfC. I'm just disappointed that I took the time to create the "rally article style" based on Klõps feedback and specifically designed it to address his concerns and he dismissed it in such a way that showed he had barely even considered it. What I took from the DRN discussion was that there is a desire for change and that compromise is possible (and probably needed). To regress to people stubbornly refusing to accept anything other than what we already have means we wasted our time and goes against the spirit of WP:CONSENSUS. The whole purpose of achieving a consensus is to satisfy as many people as possible and to satisfy them as much as possible. I think that digging in and refusing to consider the alternatives when the possibility of compromise is real, achievable and practical really goes against the spirit of Wikipedia. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 02:45, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
- @Robert McClenon — looks like we will need an RfC after all. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 08:54, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Request for Comment on table format
![]() |
|
I've started this RfC because after lengthy discussion here and on article talk pages and an attempt to resolve the issue at DRN, the WikiProject is deadlocked on the issue of the table format in championship articles such as this one. What format should these tables take? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 04:06, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- I believe that the split table format should be abandoned in favour of a single table for all entries. There are several reasons for this:
- The style of table with competitors grouped by their entrants has been commonly used by motorsports articles since Wikipedia's inception. However, I feel that this "one size fits all" approach was born out of necessity rather than being designed to address the needs of specific articles and that this is now restrictive. Many championship articles such as MotoGP, Supercars and IndyCar have their own bespoke table formats, but the WRC does not and I think it needs one.
- The table is split based on the entrant, but the definition of "entrant" has changed. Once upon a time, a team would enter and run the cars and the whole thing would be a single operation. However, in 2019 teams often operate multiple cars under different names. For example, Marcus Grönholm's Rally Sweden car was entered by "GRX Team", but per this source the car was run by Toyota's works team ("GRX Team" is Grönholm's rallycross team, but had nothing to do with the running of the car). Likewise, Lorenzo Bertelli's entry in Sweden was run by M-Sport WRT quite separately to their manufacturer team.
- The split-table format was introduced into WRC articles in 2006 owing to a complex series of rules (designed to encourage more entries) that were written out of the sport a decade ago. Continuing to use the split-table format does not meet the needs of the article.
- The tables are split based on who is eligible for points in the manufacturers' championship. However, all crews are eligible for entry in the drivers' and co-drivers' championships regardless of their manufacturers' eligibility. Splitting the table over-emphasises the importance of the manufacturers' championship.
- You will notice that there are some drivers (such as Yoann Bonato) who are included in the results matrix, but not in the entry list. That is because Bonato entered the series' support championship, but finished high enough to score points in the main championship. A long-standing consensus among rally editors is to limit the entry list to "RC1" entries (the sport's designation for the top class); in other words, crews that entered the World Rally Championship first. This choice was made because rallies often attract dozens of entries; this year's Monte Carlo Rally had 84. Splitting the table effectively creates three separate categories: manufacturer entries, non-manufacturer entries, and entries outside the RC1 designation.
- Speaking of RC1 entries, the sport make no distinction between manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries when it comes to the running of the sport. Both are classified as RC1 entries, and the regulations state that all RC1 entries that are capable of completing a stage must complete the stage for the result to be considered valid (this literally came up overnight when an RC1 car caused a stage stoppage; one of the other crews picked up a puncture and lost several places, but gained them back because their time was invalidated).
- With this in mind, I have created several possible formats to introduce to the articles, and I believe that this one works best. It merges the two tables into one but still distinguishes between manufacturer and non-manufacturer entries (and in a way that highlights the manufacturers), and is far more flexible than the split-table format when introducing the ability to sort the table (which I have not added here as it takes me forever to do the markup). Proponents of the split-table format have repeatedly argued that the table format must be consistent with the formats used in other, similar articles (though I have not seen any policy that dictates this) and this proposal does exactly that—it uses a style consistent with the entry lists that appear in individual rally articles going back to 2013. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 04:44, 10 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Mclarenfan17 Yes, Option 3 looks pretty good. But to sort out the problem like Sordo last year I mentioned before (which is some rounds are eligible, while some rounds are ineligible), I believe boldface the rounds would be much better. --Unnamelessness (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- @Unnamelessness — that's easily fixed:
- @Mclarenfan17 Yes, Option 3 looks pretty good. But to sort out the problem like Sordo last year I mentioned before (which is some rounds are eligible, while some rounds are ineligible), I believe boldface the rounds would be much better. --Unnamelessness (talk) 14:05, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
No. Driver Co-Driver Entrant Car Tyre Rounds 6 Dani Sordo
Carlos del Barrio
Hyundai Shell Mobis WRT
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC M 3–4 Hyundai Shell Mobis WRT
5
- The boldface can be expanded to the rounds column, too. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 19:48, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, that's good. But I mean we can simplify it like:
- The boldface can be expanded to the rounds column, too. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 19:48, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
No. Driver Co-Driver Entrant Car Tyre Rounds 6 Dani Sordo
Carlos del Barrio
Hyundai Shell Mobis WRT
Hyundai i20 Coupe WRC M 3–4, 5, 6–7
- Anyway, that's just my personal preference. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 02:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Option 3: rally article style More appropriate under today's regulations and much easier to do copy-edit when creating an entry list. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 14:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- In that case, I would suggest applying it to all WRC, WRC-2, WRC-3 and JWRC articles since 2017 as 2017 is when the regulations were changed. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 19:48, 11 March 2019 (UTC)
- I feel free to that, but it mainly depends on other editors' opinions. -- Unnamelessness (talk) 02:35, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
- Well, I'm hoping we'll be able to hear from otherwise-uninvolved editors soon. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 08:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)
I didn't want to answer as we were instructed by Robert McClenon in the closing statement of DRN "...or don't continue the dispute. The latter is recommended" [1] and You clearly have an issue respecting other peoples opinions if they are not agreeing with you. I'd suggest You to learn it as it will help You in life. Also the question isn't deadlocked, rather, in my opinion, your proposals have been rejected, but as said You don't respect the opinions of other people.
I think the overly long introduction You have made above just scares away any uninvolved editors, because its hard to understand what really is the problem You have. So lets but it simply:
In season articles should the entries table be:
- Option 1: (current) sorted so that entries eligible to score manufacturer points are listed before entries ineligible to score manufacturer points.
- Option 2: all drivers mixed up and not sorted to manufacturer and non manufacturer points eligible entries
I support Option 1 because it gives clearer overview for the reader about the drivers market situation. The media (main coverage) clearly focuses on the manufacturer contracted drivers. The non manufacturer points drivers usually only take part one event during the season (in 2018 season there's 14 private entries and 12 of them only participate in one event only) so it is a lot of drivers but they make up a small part of the season. And over all I think that at the and of season, there will be more private entries than contracted manufacturer drivers, the table will be long and massive. Reader looking in the article will be really confused if they look in the table and it is full of unknown one race drivers such as Jean-Charles Beaubelique, Robert Simonetti, Armando Pereira etc. I understand that for the bureaucratic approach this option goes against general rules of database-ism, but Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy nor a database. Wikipedia articles have to be copyedited, clear and sorted so that reader gets fast overview it is more important than following some FIA rules etc. --Klõps (talk) 23:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC)