Talk:No Time to Die

Steve Mazzaro

Hans Zimmer puts out a tweet saying the Super Bowl commercial doesn’t include any of his music. He says he’s still working on the score with Steve Mazzaro. Steve scored Eon’s The Rhythm Section." For The Rhythm Section they are in the credits as : Music Score Produced by HANS ZIMMER Music by STEVE MAZZARO Ofcourse we don't know if the same will be for this movie. But Steve Mazzaro is now confirmed working on this movie. Should he also be added in the article? Lobo151 (talk) 15:37, 3 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lobo151: I'm not sure I understand what this means. Is "The Rhythm Section" referring to a specific song or a piece of music, or is it referring the rhythm section of the score? Or is it just referring to the music in the trailer? (If it's the latter, then he shouldn't be mentioned in the article.) Mclarenfan17 (talk) 04:24, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

It is about the movie The Rhythm Section which is also produced by Eon productions. In the Tweet Hans Zimmer made it clear that the trailers released so far doesn't contain his music because he still is working on it with Steve Mazzaro . Lobo151 (talk) 05:33, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@Lobo151: I see. Thank you for the explanation. However, I don't think Mazzaro should be mentioned in the article unless something he writes is included in the film. There is a trend in film-making at the moment where content produced for trailers is cut from the final film. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 05:40, 4 February 2020 (UTC)

@Aria1561: it has been well-documented that Scott Z. Burns contributed to the screenplay. However, because he is not being credited for his work, he is not included in the infobox. Could you please a) provide a source that shows Johnny Marr (and/or Steve Mazzaro) is being credited alongside Zimmer or b) explain why Marr should be included in the infobox despite not being credited for his work when Burns has been omitted because he is not being credited.

The infobox should only contain the names of people who are credited. It is not (and, to the best of my knowledge, never has been) intended to list every single person who worked on the film. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 07:38, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

@NewAccountEdits: this goes for you, too, please. So far the only evidence we have of Mazzaro's involvement is Zimmer's tweet about his composing music for the trailers. Do you have evidence that he will be credited for the film? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:51, 13 February 2020 (UTC)

Link to No Time to Die (song)

@Mclarenfan17: Please stop removing the link to No Time to Die (song). Just because you nominated the song page for deletion (which editors seem to be disagreeing with), this is the current page about the theme song. If sourcing confirms a different song title, then the page can be moved, but you're removing access to the current entry. The current text in this article's text says "theme song" and does specifically suggest the song title is also "No Time to Die", so I'm not sure why this is problematic. Thanks. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 21:19, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

There is simply no evidence that the song is called "No Time to Die". Nobody who is quoted in any of the articles that you have provided as sources actually names the song. In your rush to create the article you didn't bother to check your sources and so the article is just repeating the usual PR hype about being excited to compose a theme and how Eilish is a fresh voice. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:43, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Mclarenfan17, You've already expressed your opinion on multiple pages, which is fine, but that's not the issue here. As long as the song article exists, I think it's appropriate to link to the page within this article. Here, the song is linked but not mentioned by name, which seems like a good compromise. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:11, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it a song article, but a press release. In its original form, that's all it was—just lengthy quotes ripped from various news articles. There was nothing encyclopaedic about it. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 00:14, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Mclarenfan17, Yes, again, that's your opinion, but other editors seem to disagree with you. I'll let other editors weigh in here, but I think we should keep the link to the song article as long as the page is live. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:33, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

Update: The single "No Time to Die" was released today, so no need to debate this further. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 00:38, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• MV5BYTI1OGMwMjktN2VmOS00NGY4LTk3M2UtZjMzODkwZDYxMTdhXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTAyMTcwMDY1. V1 .jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 16:06, 16 February 2020 (UTC)

Title footnote

The article should have some explanation of the title being shared with another film. Key people involved in the production of the 1958 film are closely associated with the Bond franchise, and while the film is relatively obscure, page analytics show that the 1958 had a spike in page views when the 2020 film title was revealed. Reducing this to a footnote understates this significance. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:21, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Unless there's a source that says the title of this title was influence by that film, that's original research and can't be included. --Masem (t) 21:35, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

The article is not claiming that the title of the 1958 film influenced the title of the 2020 film. It is simply pointing out that there are two films called No Time to Die. One is a James Bond film and the other was made by people who played a pivotal role in establishing the James Bond franchise. All of this is supported by reliable and verifiable sources. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:45, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot of original research and inaccessible citations. Your job as an editor is not to bump page views for other articles. A coincidence in titling doesn't make it important. --MustTryHarder (talk) 21:55, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

There's a lot of original research

It's not original research. Everything the article states is fact and supported by sources.

and inaccessible citations

Then you should read WP:SOURCEACCESS, which clearly states that we should not reject reliable sources just because they are difficult or costly to access. 

A coincidence in titling doesn't make it important.

A coincidence does not automatically make it unimportant, either. It is notable given the number or correlations. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 22:13, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

It is your original research that a non-Bond film that happens to share the same name as this one and has a few common crew members is relevant to this film. That's trivia, per WP:TRIVIA and needs reliable sourcing to include. Sometimes such sourcing is possible, but you have to find it to include. Just sourcing the credits on the older films is not sufficient. --Masem (t) 22:18, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. Editors constantly have to decide what is relevant to an article and what is not. Take, for example, a Formula 1 championship article. Teams have three names: the "constructor name", to which all results are credited (which is also the common name); the "official name", which is the name that the team uses to refer to itself and usually includes sponsors; and the "trading name", which is the name the team uses when it is being run as a business. The entry list published at the start of the year contains all three names for each team, but editors of these articles only use the constructor name and the official name because the trading name is not relevant. I don't see this situation as being any different, and I don't think the decision of what is and what is not relevant should be solely in the hands of someone with a history of cutting content indiscriminately. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 22:42, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Some sources such as this BBC article make the connection between the films, but I think the footnote location is adequate for capturing this coincidental information. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 22:45, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

I agree, a footnote will be enough. El Millo (talk) 22:49, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

• This is basically a matter of, I think this is article section material or I think this is footnote material. Since we all say what we think, I happen to agree with User:Mclarenfan17, that this is clearly more than footnote material. Why? That is a matter of experience and common sense. I would not hide this information in a footnote. Debresser (talk) 23:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Why? It's barely relevant. El Millo (talk) 23:50, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Well, that is your opinion, which you have stated before. I, however, feel otherwise. It is my opinion, that anything that avoids reader's confusion between two different things, is essential and should be in the article itself. Debresser (talk) 15:00, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

To avoid readers' confusion, we could add the 1958 film to the Other uses template at the top of the article. El Millo (talk) 17:42, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

It already points to a general disambiguation page and the film's listed there. It is not well-known enough to be listed separately here. --Masem (t) 17:53, 1 March 2020 (UTC)

Except that this article madd it better-known. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 00:49, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

If for "better known" you mean that it received more views, that is probably because they clicked on that one by mistake instead of this one. That's not being better-known. El Millo (talk) 03:34, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Even if it was by mistake, people became aware of its existence. That's becoming better-known. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 03:51, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Roundabout fallacy. It's still original research to make the connection you want to make and argue the end result as a means to keep it. Let sources come to say that.

Which, by the way, took all of 5 seconds to find [1] which you can use to source. --Masem (t) 04:04, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Added. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:40, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

This is questionable, so I'll leave this here --MustTryHarder (talk) 22:15, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

• I think having it as a footnote is a good way to include the information but not give it excessive prominence. - SchroCat (talk) 23:08, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Grammar/commas

There appears to be a disagreement between SchroCat and me about 4 commas in the lead. SchroCat recently removed a few serial commas, but per MOS:OXFORD, these should remain, because the rest of the article uses the serial comma (or at least it did until recently). SchroCat also removed a necessary comma in the second paragraph. The sentence that begins "Both left due to creative differences..." should have a comma to separate parts of a compound sentence. Can other editors please weigh in on this? If everyone disagrees with me, I'll go with consensus. Thanks! GrammarDamner (talk) 23:11, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

How tedious. I'll point out that the rest of the Bond films don't use them, and neither do most of the articles written in British English (they're fine in US English and if you're using Oxford English, but not so much in normal English). If you really want to keep forcing it in as your personal preference, then it speaks volumes. - SchroCat (talk) 23:15, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

With all due respect, I'll point out that at least some of the Bond films (Skyfall and Spectre, for example) do use them. GrammarDamner (talk) 23:33, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

"With all due respect"? If they have, it's because US editors have seen fit to add them at some point, regardless of the lack of need. I see you do little else but add the otiose nonsense to BrEng articles, regardless of the fact that British and American usage differs considerably. - SchroCat (talk) 23:47, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

SchroCat, I assure you that I was not using some sort of WikiSpeak euphemism. I often start by saying "With all due respect" in an effort to keep things civil. GrammarDamner (talk) 23:55, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

There is no need, and please stop pinging me: I have this page watchlisted. - SchroCat (talk) 23:58, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

SchroCat, I do much more than add the otiose nonsense to BrEng articles, thanks, please AGF. GrammarDamner (talk) 15:45, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

No. - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

SchroCat, I'm not trying to start something, just trying to clarify (I'm still fairly new at all this). Per your comment below, we should AGF for you, but per your comment above, nobody should AGF for me. Is this correct? GrammarDamner (talk) 16:29, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I have not said that anywhere, obviously. - SchroCat (talk) 16:38, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

SchroCat, then when I said "please AGF", and you said "no", what did that mean? GrammarDamner (talk) 17:46, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

GrammarDamner, WP:DROPTHESTICK and step away. This is nothing to do with the improvement of the article (which is the reason for this page), so it's time to move on. I'll leave you with the parting advice that next time you are editing an article in British Eglish, don't carpet bomb the bloody thing with commas, particulary those favoured in US circles: US and UK usage differs, and if you can't work out the dfference, then leave them alone. - SchroCat (talk) 18:23, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

SchroCat, drop the stick? Is that what you say when you don't feel like taking responsibility for your actions? You asked Debresser to AGF for you, but you refused to do the same for me. But sure, I'll let it go now. As for "the good, normal English", as you put it, I'll do my best not to introduce other versions of English in BrEng articles, and I'll try to only add Oxford commas to BrEng articles when necessary (clarification of ambiguity, internal consistency, etc.). My parting advice for you: work on your civility. GrammarDamner (talk) 18:59, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Take it elsewhere: not interested. - SchroCat (talk) 19:04, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

• I agree with User:SchroCat that the Oxford comma should not be used, in general, but at the same time I would remind him that according to the essay at Wikipedia:Guidance_on_applying_the_Manual_of_Style#Oxford_comma: "Official style is: Do not change the form of standard English adopted by an article without good reason.", and I subscribe to that wholeheartedly. In simple words, he should stop actively removing the Oxford comma, from this and any article on Wikipedia. Debresser (talk) 23:43, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I do not go round actively removing them, thanks (and please AGF; given our last interaction you should be sure of what you are talking about). If someone keeps idiotically adding them where they are not needed, I will remove them, however. - SchroCat (talk) 23:49, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

I don't remember our last interaction. I do however notice that for reasons unclear to me you interpreted my comment as a lack of good faith. Which in itself is a lack of good faith, IMHO. See WP:AOBF. Debresser (talk) 10:24, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

You get blocked so often that you don't remember getting blocked during our last interaction, even though that was only last week? My good faith only stretches so far - but further than your memory, it seems. - SchroCat (talk) 10:30, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Not really. :) I just don't hold a grudge. I reverted your edits because of what you did, not who did it. Debresser (talk) 21:58, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

Debresser thanks. Do you have any thoughts on the comma in the compound sentence? GrammarDamner (talk) 23:56, 2 March 2020 (UTC)

Should have one, of course. Debresser (talk) 10:24, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

• The compound sentence should have a comma since it is joining two independent clauses, and it is easier to read with the comma. I also support the use of the serial comma if it had already been in the article. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 00:03, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

• You need to read what this is about: the commas were changed in the lead. The serial comma is not used in the article. What I did was to put the lazy change in the lead back to being consistent throughout the article. - SchroCat (talk) 00:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

You apparently need to read what this is about, since the OP opened this discussion about both the use of serial commas as well as the use of commas for compound sentences. Also, when you say that "the serial comma is not used in the article", that seems to only be because you had already removed them [2], contrary to the guidance cited above. Not sure why you removed them, or why you are attempting to claim that they were not part of the article. That seems disingenuous. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 19:23, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I know what it's about. Early version: no serial commas. It's disingenuous of you to try and attack me for returning the comma use back to the original version used. They're not needed and weren't used in the original version. You want t get antsy with someone, get antsy with the people who revert it to the lazy-arse version for nothing more than their personal preference. We're done here. - SchroCat (talk) 19:33, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

I can only see one person who is being hostile. You need to lose the attitude of "I know better than everyone else" and stop being so dismissive. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 21:31, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Nope. if people keep introducing AmEng into the article I'll keep the attitude up. I'm not being dismissive: I just do happen to know better. - SchroCat (talk) 21:45, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Your attitude is rude and unnecessary, and it would be nice if you spoke more civilly with other editors. Where do MOS guidelines say that the serial comma should not be used on articles that use British English? – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 22:00, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh ffs... read the above about the changing from one version to another and work it out yourself. - SchroCat (talk) 22:21, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

if people keep introducing AmEng into the article I'll keep the attitude up. I'm not being dismissive: I just do happen to know better

... Do you want to end up at ANI for uncivil behaviour? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 22:23, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the threat, but if you think that's worthy of ANI, you'll find out it's a long way off that. Now, if you can look at the top of the page it says "This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the No Time to Die article". If you have anything to say that will improve the article, feel free to raise it, but there is little of benefit to man to beast in this thread. - SchroCat (talk) 22:41, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

If you have anything to say that will improve the article, feel free to raise it

Okay: you and the way you are acting like a condescending pain in the backside towards anybody who disagrees with you even slightly. You've already been asked by two editors to change your tone. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 23:46, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

So nothing to improve the article? Good. We're done here, and you can stop the baiting, unless you really, really want to have The Last Word. - SchroCat (talk) 06:33, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm not baiting you. I'm simply giving you the opportunity to act like a decent human being, but you instead opt for hostility and come across as an arrogant, entitled know-it-all.

For what it's worth, a change in your attitude would improve the article because it would make the consensus-building process collaborative rather than confrontational. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 08:04, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

False titles and definite artices

But you keep making grammatical changes throughout the article. Case in point, this like from the premise:

He is approached by Felix Leiter, his friend and a CIA officer, who enlists his help in the search for Valdo Obruchev, a missing scientist.

The problem here is that it is written in passive voice. There are also problems with verb-subject disagreement since "he" (which is to say Bond) is the subject and "enlists" is the verb. The problem here is the passive voice turns Obruchev into a subject where "missing" becomes the verb. The sentence should read like this instead:

He is approached by Felix Leiter, his friend and a CIA officer, who enlists his help in the search for missing scientist Valdo Obruchev.

I have no idea what you meant by "false titles" and "avoiding WP:SEASON" when you reverted it the first time. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 02:49, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

This isn't to do with the commas, but never mind. For the false title, see False title. It's prevalent in journalism and common in US English, but should not be used in the good, formal English that an encyclopaedia should aim for. It's not in a passive voice, and the use of the false title isn't great, grammatically speaking.

The SEASONS part wasn't to do with this, but was for the other part of that edit, where I changed "the spring of 2016". - SchroCat (talk) 04:31, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

It's prevalent in journalism and common in US English, but should not be used in the good, formal English that an encyclopaedia should aim for.

I think that in trying to solve one comparatively minor problem, you've gone and created a bigger problem in the verb-subject disagreement

The SEASONS part wasn't to do with this, but was for the other part

Then can you please make that clear in your edit summaries? Mclarenfan17 (talk) 04:59, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

There isn't a verb-subject disagreement

I numbered the changes, and it should have been self-evident from the context. Short of doing two smaller edits (which is pointless), or writing an essay as a summary, this should be clear enough. - SchroCat (talk) 05:41, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

This is the phrase that forms the sentence:

He is approached by Felix Leiter, who enlists his help in the search for Valdo Obruchev.

"He" (which is to say Bond) is the subject of the sentence. "Enlists" is the verb; Bond is enlisted to help.

This is the clause that is inserted into the sentence:

his friend and a CIA officer

"His" still refers to Bond, but the clause is used to show who does the enlisting. Together thet form this:

He is approached by Felix Leiter, his friend and a CIA officer, who enlists his help in the search for Valdo Obruchev.

Grammatically this sentence is fine.

However, you then add another clause onto the end of the phrase:

Valdo Obruchev, a missing scientist.

Because "missing" is used as a verb and refers to Obruchev, Obruchev becomes the subject. However, the subject of the sentence is Bond. You cannot have a sentence with two subjects. In your haste to overcome the use of a false title—which, as the article you linked to makes clear, is not universally unacceptable and which I doubt anyone would have picked up on if you had not raised it—you have introduced a significantly bigger problem to the article. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 10:50, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

"However, you then add another clause onto the end of the phrase": I didn't add the phrase: I moved a pre-existing one to avoid the bloody awful false title. And yes, people would have picked up on it, but they wouldn't have been Americans, who are happy to use the term, as are journalists. As this is an encyclopaedic article, however, avoiding the otiose use of the title is the only way to go. I do not think the sentence needs redrafting from its current form, but I will look at it again to avoid the perceived problem. - SchroCat (talk) 11:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

I do not think the sentence needs redrafting from its current form, but I will look at it again to avoid the perceived problem.

I want to believe that you're willing to work on it, but then you go and post this in your edit summary:

more dross up to where the rest of the nonsense is

It doesn't inspire confidence. Mclarenfan17 (talk) 09:53, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Meh. It was dross and it was moved into the section where there was nonsense. I have separated this thread into a new section as it's not about the nonsense about commas. - SchroCat (talk) 11:13, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

United Kingdom and United States Vs UK and US

Is there any reason we have United Kingdom and United States written in full throughout the article, rather than UK and US? Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations#Exceptions the full version is not needed a time all, and having the full terms written out makes for clunky reading in places. - SchroCat (talk) 06:47, 5 March 2020 (UTC)