Talk:2020 coronavirus pandemic in Italy

General statistics about deaths in Italy

I miss general statistics about death rates in Italy. In order to form a more objective mind about the epidemic, we also need these data. The number of expected deaths per day is according to the mortality rate about 1600 (rounded). It is a little bit more in winter than in summer (I don't know how much). If someone finds this (totally objective) information (I couldn't), we should put it here for compare. I think it is quite obvious what it would mean, if this number hasn't change drastically (if not, I can put here later a thorough explanation). If someone has a source about it, please put it here. Once more: what I need is an as thorough as possible analysis of all deaths in Italy in the last 15 days according to cause of death (all causes, not just coronavirus) and day and if possible also according to region and age. Thanks in advance. Yomomo (talk) 11:56, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

This is not a website to create original research, this is an encyclopedia. If there are reliable sources reporting such an analysis as the one you are looking for, then we are happy to include it here. --Ritchie92 (talk) 12:17, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

I thought it was clear, that this is what I ment :-). But I cannot find anything myself. So, I would be happy, if anyone finds some info with a reliable source and brings it here in Discussion. Greetings Yomomo (talk) 13:51, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Just a suggestion: In many articles on this topic, it is stressed that the much higher death rate in older age ranges is due primarily to underlying conditions. Many of these are related to smoking, and it has been suggested that due to the much higher levels of smoking in this population, this is also a partial reason for the elevated numbers of deaths in older individuals in these regions. Would it be feasible to include columns or rows in the ongoing statistics here to report on which underlying conditions were present in the fatality rate, if said information is collected and available? 47.149.23.152 (talk) 12:49, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Statistics Chart

Comment about the chart. In the statistics by region chart, why are we listing 19 out of 20 regions, then splitting the 20th region, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol, into its two provinces (Trentino and South Tyrol), thus having a chart of 21 columns. I suggest we combine the Trentino column and the South Tyrol column into one Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol region column for consistency.MicroManagingAH (talk) 03:42, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

The two autonomous provinces of Trento and Bolzano (i.e. Trentino and South Tyrol) are de facto and de jure two separate entities, similarly to two different regions in Italy. So usually they are listed separately when it comes to classification in regions. The region of Trentino/South Tyrol is in fact not a very relevant institution, but just a geographical identification (other more expert editors e.g. Checco can possibly confirm). Furthermore, the data provided by the Ministry and Protezione Civile separates the two autonomous provinces as we do in the table here. So instead of "elaborating" the data ourselves by summing the counts of Trento and Bolzano, keeping them separated would be more faithful to the source. --Ritchie92 (talk) 10:18, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

I completely agree with User:Ritchie92. Trentino and South Tyrol should always be mentioned this way (per consensus) and should always be treated separately (as I have argued also in other contexts—see Talk:List of political parties in Italy#Regional presidents in infoboxes). --Checco (talk) 17:29, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

But you are leaving the titles of both the chart and graph as "by region" when it's really by region AND two autonomous provinces. Are you now considering them two regions, so we have now 21 regions in Italy? What consensus?MicroManagingAH (talk) 21:23, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Graph “Is Coronavirus just like flu?”

Something is very wrong about the graph titled “Coronavirus just like flu?” citations listed as (199 and 200). The weekly numbers of deaths due to “flu” in 2019 shown in this graph are far too low. If one adds the week-by-week total numbers of deaths due to “flu” in 2019, the total for the entire flu season is less than 500. This cannot be the case in a country with a population 60 million. In the USA, with a population of 350 million, between 20,000 and 40,000 typically die of flu each season. Like in Italy, the vast majority that die of flu in the USA are elderly or immunocompromised. So this comparison of deaths in Italy due to COVID-19 vs. typical flu cannot be valid. WashZ (talk) 20:14, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Deaths from flu are nothing like as high as you say they are. Jim Michael (talk) 01:19, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Flu deaths in Italy are up to 25,000 per year, see https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971219303285 'Just' flu is also quite misleading since influenza is a very severe disease. That whole graph seems more like a propaganda piece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.187.168.217 (talk) 20:38, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry I did not reference: "Seasonal influenza – flu symptoms & severity". CDC. 2009. Retrieved 2009-09-13. “An average of about 36,000 people per year in the United States die from influenza-related causes” This is a CDC report. What is your reference? WashZ (talk) 02:23, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

You'll need to provide an online link to that. Related doesn't mean that it's the sole or main cause of death. Jim Michael (talk) 08:05, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Article from which the graph is taken (http://www.biotecnologi.org/is-coronavirus-just-like-a-flu/) says that: "In the season 2018-2019, flu was responsible (...) and 205 deaths in a span of 33 weeks (...)" For flu cases, the article cites: https://www.epicentro.iss.it/influenza/FluNews18-19#casi On epicentro.iss.it one can find an article about mortality of flu: https://www.epicentro.iss.it/influenza/sorveglianza-mortalita-influenza where they seem to say (I don't know Italian, so I quote automatic translation): "It is thanks to these methodologies that we get to attribute on average 8000 deaths from flu and its complications every year in Italy." and also: "For the reasons described above, neither monitoring system provides the total number of deaths that seasonal flu causes in Italy each year. For the latter, it is also necessary to underline an additional element to keep in mind. If we analyze the specific mortality data due to flu that Istat provides every year in Italy, the deaths due to flu are a few hundred. The main reason is that the flu virus often aggravates the already compromised conditions of patients suffering from other pathologies (for example respiratory or cardiovascular) up to causing their death. In these cases, the flu virus is often not identified either because it is not sought or because death is attributed to general pneumonia." Would be good if someone who speaks Italian and has time for this took a look if the translation was reasonable. 195.150.224.156 (talk) 12:29, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2020

Matant94 (talk) 17:44, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for my english, there is a serious error, all our case of CoViD-19 are domestic h2h transmitted and not linked with the couple from China as reported by our High Health Institute (Istituto Superiore di Sanità) page 6, 7: Bollettino CoViD-19 - Istituto Superiore Sanità I think a correction will help to fight the stima Have a nice day, at least better then our Matteo

 Not done I am puzzled of what you are trying to say and PDF might not be reliable to prove your statement. Stay safe. Abishe (talk) 15:39, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 March 2020

The article states: "By 21 March, Italy had conducted 233,222 tests for the virus.[16]"

The source [16] leads to a pdf that is from 18th of March and was retrieved on 19th of March.

I request to find a provable source for that statement or leave it with [citation needed] TheWalkingStarfish (talk) 19:37, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done --Ritchie92 (talk) 20:18, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

Russia military aid for Italy

I can't edit main page. Please add that info to article about Russia aid. From news: The Russian military will start sending medical help to Italy from Sunday in order to help it battle the new coronavirus after receiving an order from President Vladimir Putin, Russia's Defence Ministry said in a statement. Putin spoke to Italian Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte on Saturday, the Kremlin said, saying the Russian leader had offered his support and help in the form of mobile disinfection vehicles and specialists to help the worst hit Italian regions. The Russian Defence Ministry said military transport planes would deliver eight mobile brigades of military medics, special disinfection vehicles, and other medical equipment to Italy starting from Sunday. --88.200.215.154 (talk) 06:51, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Two useful articles about COVID-19 in Italy

Some of the content from these articles might be useful, but I am personally more interested in the pandemic articles about Canada.

1. https://www.thelocal.it/20200318/learn-from-our-mistakes-italians-plead-with-people-abroad-to-take-coronavirus-risks-seriously 'Learn from our mistakes': Italians plead

  "While Italy imposed a localised lockdown immediately after its first deaths, people outside of the "red zone" carried on going to bars and discos, eating meals at crowded restaurants, and hugging and kissing each other despite government advice telling them to limit social contact.

  As reality hit home, Italians watched in horror as some in other countries shrugged it off as "just a case of the flu" – as some in Italy had done weeks earlier."

2. Hospitals might be “the main” source of Covid-19 transmission, the Bergamo doctors warned.

https://www.statnews.com/2020/03/21/coronavirus-plea-from-italy-treat-patients-at-home/?fbclid=IwAR0AM7hvtlnaANE_TtRz0Nhx_gvLQWpTlcn_xuzhIDH9Ywu0kcphsBzm3eU A plea from doctors in Italy: To avoid Covid-19 disaster, treat more patients at home

... “[Covid-19] patients started arriving and the rate of infection in other patients soared. That is one thing that probably led to the current disaster.”

“Managing patients at home is a brilliant thing,” “Bring them nutrition, measure their oxygen levels, even bring them oxygen, and you can probably keep many of them at home.

Peter K Burian (talk) 11:18, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Italy was too slow to impose wide-spread lockdowns: NEW YORK TIMES: https://bdnews24.com/world/europe/2020/03/22/italy-pandemics-new-epicentre-has-lessons-for-the-world

  As Italy’s coronavirus infections ticked above 400 cases and deaths hit the double digits, the leader of the governing Democratic Party posted a picture of himself clinking glasses for “an aperitivo in Milan,” urging people “not to change our habits.” That was on Feb 27. Not 10 days later, as the toll hit 5,883 infections and 233 dead, the party boss, Nicola Zingaretti, posted a new video, this time informing Italy that he, too, had the virus.

   Also in late February: In Milan, only miles from the centre of the outbreak, the mayor, Beppe Sala, publicised a “Milan Doesn’t Stop” campaign, and the Duomo, the city’s landmark cathedral that is a draw for tourists, reopened. People went out.

 March 8: broader restrictions in Lombardy also effectively lifted the quarantine on Codogno and other “red zone” towns linked to the original outbreak. Checkpoints disappeared. Local mayors complained that their sacrifices had been wasted.

   A day later, on March 9, when the positive cases reached 9,172 and the death toll climbed to 463, Conte toughened the restrictions and extended them nationally. by then, some experts say, it was already too late.

  Now we are running after it,” said Sandra Zampa, undersecretary at the Ministry of Health, who said Italy did the best it could given the information it had. “We closed gradually 

Peter K Burian (talk) 13:01, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Why are deaths shown in black?

I just don't like that. It's like Halloween.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:07, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Why it spread so fast

I just glanced briefly at the article and can't tell whether this has been covered, but a radio newscast I just heard stated that there were more older people and testing was not as extensive as in other countries, which apparently means more people spread the disease without knowing it.— Vchimpanzee • talk • contributions • 16:10, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Copan group, one of the world leading producer of the swabs needed to collect samples, just happen to be right in the middle of the red spot in Italy : [1]. And we never made enough test since the first diagnosed case. Italy is the first country to reach enough tests to cover an amount of deaths comparable to what a common season of coronavirus would be expected to do. Iluvalar (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Foreign cases linked to Italy

@Abductive: this is the second time in 24 hours that you have removed a huge established and well-sourced section from the article. Since the first time you got reverted, you should look for consensus on the talk page first, before keeping stubbornly deleting the section. The section stays until new consensus is achieved about deleting it.

Regarding the objections in the second edit message. There is no obvious original research in the section, because the text (or at least the vast majority the text that was deleted) does not imply that the cases were infected in Italy, but states that they are merely linked to Italy (hence the section title), i.e. involving Italian nationals abroad or people travelling to Italy. This is a statement of sourced facts, not original research. One can discuss about whether this kind of list is redundant on this page, but this surely deserves a debate, since the section has been on this article for virtually all its existence. I would say the editor who removed it first should have opened this thread here. --Ritchie92 (talk) 00:23, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

• Please see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject COVID-19#Foreign cases linked to Italy. Abductive (reasoning) 02:05, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

We should mention "Match Zero"

On 19 Feb at San Siro Stadium in Bergamo the game Italian Atalanta Bergamo and Spanish Valencia has been described as one of the big events to spread the virus. We mention it briefly in the section on "Foreign cases linked to Italy" but the article doesn't discuss it in the history of disease's spread in Italy. Sources:

• Template:Pl icon [2] Sorry its in Polish but the newspaper is reliable and the author is renowned Jerzy Duszyński (biochemist). Quote: "Mecz na San Siro określany jest teraz jako biologiczna bomba lub mecz zero. Uważa się, że dramatyczna sytuacja epidemiologiczna, która zapanowała w Bergamo po kilku tygodniach od meczu, ma z nim związek." Translation: "The San Siro match is now referred to as the biological bomb or zero match. It is believed that the dramatic epidemiological situation that prevailed in Bergamo a few weeks after the match is associated with it."
• Template:Fr icon [3] Eurosport article
• there is a bunch of other news for search key 'San Siro "match zero"' but not that much in English ([4]). Term "game zero" is also used but I think less often. ([5]).

I hope editors working on this article can incorporate this into the chronology. Sorry I couldn't find more reliable sources in English. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 12:55, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Hadn't even noticed this when I added it, but it's added now in Lombardy cluster. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 02:33, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Daily Death and Infections

Can we get a new graph which shows the daily number of new infections and deaths. This is important for readers to show if the the daily number of infections and deaths are going up or down. That way it will show whether coronavirus has peaked. Right now I have to use a calculator to figure out. We should add another graph to show that. Mercenary2k (talk) 18:12, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Look more closely and you will find it. It was there all the time. --Ritchie92 (talk) 18:48, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Oh LOL.

It cured pneumonia yay !

Hello, I'm highly suspecting all the pneumonia cases caused by complications of the COVID are falling in the COVID-19 bucket at the moment ? Meaning we should have on paper an abnormal low amount of cases leading to pneumonia ? As the level where the deaths seems to be capping, it would most likely impact the fatality rate by at least 5% ish ? Which would be relevant to know. Any source ? Iluvalar (talk) 19:00, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Number of death

The Civil Protection did not include in its daily bulletin 50 deaths from Piedmont, so the correct number of victims is 8,215. (BBC, Worldometers, Lorenzo Pregliasco). I think they "simply" forgot to include them in the death toll, let's see if they'll include these 50 victims in tomorrow bulletin (as I hope so). -- Nick.mon (talk) 20:04, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Ritchie92, I’m quite sure that even the total number of cases is incorrect. Worldometers counts 80,589 cases. Moreover if you look to the bulletin’s table you’ll se that they did’t add the 50 deaths even in the totals column. -- Nick.mon (talk) 23:41, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Ok. Fixed in the tables. --Ritchie92 (talk) 23:49, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 March 2020

Italy is one of world's centers

Please change this to

Italy is one of the world's centres

"The" is needed and this article is written in British English, where "centers" is not proper spelling. Thank you. 208.95.49.53 (talk) 14:09, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

 Done --Ritchie92 (talk) 15:33, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

wrong numbers

No. of cases for 2020-03-26 is 80539, not 80589 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jarni (talk • contribs) 17:46, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The given number was the consequence of a typo on the Piedmont total deaths number (499 real number instead of 449). This is reported here in the "Latest updates" section about the 26 March. Officials from Piedmont confirmed it. --Ritchie92 (talk) 17:56, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

But this didn't mean that they also didn't count 50 addition cases in the total (the correction should have been made only on the active cases (-50), not on the total by adding 50).--79.44.25.206 (talk) 14:54, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

No, the error was in the Excel data sheet that they , where the total number of cases is the total of deaths + recovered + new_active. Again, see what is written and reported here. --Ritchie92 (talk) 17:36, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

The data of Piedmont reported by PC is 6.534, the same of the region last update before the bulletin at 13:00, the error of PC was only in the number of deaths. Both PC and worldometers are wrong, instead in this case (like how it was done with Lombardy on 26/02) we should use data directly from the region.--79.44.25.206 (talk) 21:35, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Death cases map

Hello, I would suggest to include a map of Italy that show the death cases per million by sub-national divisions. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.39.208.224 (talk) 12:10, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Why doesn't Italian La Repubblica apologize for false charges against Czech authorities?

Graph: "No. of new cases" seems to show wrong count

Hello,

I'm looking at the chart showing "No. of new cases" . I think that the numbers shown there are not the right ones. It's a while I'm looking at them. These are always higher than the ones of national official report .

It seems that to the actual number of registered new infections, the number of deaths and new recoveries are added. That's not correct. Deaths and New Recoveries should not be counted as "new cases".

For instance:

       date    |    official new cases count   |   new recoveries   |   deaths   |     value showed in "new cases graph"
               |                               |                    |            |
       03-25   |             3491              |        1036        |     683    |          (3491 + 1036 + 683) = 5210  BUT should be 3491  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stanoc001 (talk • contribs) 18:25, 28 March 2020 (UTC) 

No, the number given in sources (3491) is the "new active cases", meaning: total_new_cases - new_deaths - new_recoveries. --Ritchie92 (talk) 18:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Edit warring

Abductive, Ritchie92, please stop edit warring. Per WP:ONUS, the status quo ante version is the version that should be displayed while the dispute remains unresolved. I ask you both to please observe that principle and discuss your dispute, here, on the article talk page. Thank you both in advance for your close attention. El_C 19:21, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

• Very well. It's quite simple: cobbling together a list of individual cases of transmissions from primary sources is WP:OR, and it bloats up the article WP:UNDUEly with a huge list of little interest to most readers. Abductive (reasoning) 19:27, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Sure, however the established status quo ante is the one where the section is in place. See history for verification. --Ritchie92 (talk) 19:28, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

At any case, if you both reach an impasse on the article talk page, I recommend you make use of any dispute resolution request you see fit to advance the dispute toward resolution. El_C 19:31, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree. I was waiting for the user's reply in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject COVID-19#Foreign cases linked to Italy, but they kept reiterating their edit, removing the whole section once or twice a day. My reverts where just a restoration of the previous state of the article until a consensus will be reached. --Ritchie92 (talk) 19:37, 28 March 2020 (UTC)

Which date?

From "Background":

In late January 2020, following the developments of COVID-19 outbreak in mainland China, on 3 February, Italy set up enhanced screening measures, including thermal cameras and medical staff at airports.

Late January or 3 February?--Jack Upland (talk) 21:22, 28 March 2020 (UTC)