Talk:Doug TenNapel

Should this be mentioned?

Should it be mentioned that Doug is big blogger on Big Hollywood, a conservative blogging website?PokeHomsar (talk) 07:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

yeah, TenNapel's extreme homophobic views should be mentioned. --86.145.239.141 (talk) 21:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

I don't mind the included information, but being Christian is not homophobic. It is you who shows real intolerance - to his beliefs/opinions.

Here are a series of facts, to show that I am not taking a side about gay marriage on Wikipedia. 1.) The implication probably isn't that he's homophobic because he's christian. 2) Doug TenNapel has said that he opposes gay marriage, and has made some comparisons that people have found crass, most notably present in this conversation: http://gaygamer.net/2011/05/on_ratfist_doug_tennapel_and_w.html. A complex argument took place, and Wikipedia should strive to cover the proceedings objectively. Minorfixaccount (talk) 03:11, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.205.29.168 (talk) 00:05, 5 December 2011 (UTC) 

Just want to point this out, but gaygamer.net is hardly a reputable source, and the cited article is a second-hand opinion piece. Regardless, it hardly has any business being included in this entry at all. Furthermore, something like that is better suited to being a footnote, after his career. After all, Doug doesn't have a Wikipedia entry because he's known as antihomosexual; he's here because he's a well known artist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.22.211.144 (talk) 04:10, 31 May 2013 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning, but yes, the source is not reliable - it also just quotes an exchange TenNapel had on a comment thread on another site. Also, the way it was worded was poor. TenNapel's comments clearly show he's not for same-sex marriage, but he never says he's against homosexuality or gays. Cleaned it up per WP:BLP. --Jtalledo (talk) 11:31, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

He seems to be very transphobic too, as mentioned at NeoGAF#Industry response. -- Kazerniel (talk) 16:47, 24 October 2017 (UTC)

His homophobia and transphobia is entirely substantiated even by himself, it is not libelous in any way. Nobody has said it has to do with his christianity. Next time you defend someone's bigotry, please come up with a better excuse than persecution complex. Dragonzeanse (talk) 13:26, 12 July 2019 (UTC)

The issue is that I don't think that "has opinions and has been criticised for them" really passes the notability test. If he was an anti LGBT activist sure, but just getting into a twitter fight with a journalist doesn't really count. This is not knmowyourmeme, encyclopediadramatica or rationalwiki. Duckwalk71 (talk) 09:33, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Have removed the reference to the criticisms of his behavior on twitter, as this really does pass the notability test: WP:NOTROUTINE. There is a difference between someone like Tennapel and, for example, Graham Linehan who has made his twitter account a specific space for his gender activism. Duckwalk71 (talk) 15:10, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

@Duckwalk71: Could you explain how the essay WP:NOTROUTINE relates in the slightest to this case? PeterTheFourth (talk) 15:41, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Doug's recently claimed that the backlash to his (outspoken) positions has cost him work, so that's probably relevant. Mockingbus (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

Category of Dutch descent

Can we find a source for this and add it to the early life section?--Malerooster (talk) 19:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Subjective language

Can somebody please explain why my latest edit was reverted and why my corrections are considered edit warring, but removing my edits is not? Anime20XX (talk) 02:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Regarding this edit: Among other issues, nowhere do any of the multiple sources say anything about any specific phrase. Articles summarize independent, reliable sources. They do not include original research, and Wikipedia isn't a platform for public relations. You had previously been blocked for edit-warring to remove this sourced content, and these edits are a continuation of that edit war. Grayfell (talk) 20:00, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Doug TenNapel misgendered the journalist in question: There are multiple definitions of the word "man" and "woman", and "he" and "she". The terms can be used to refer to a person's psychological gender, and they can also be used to refer to a person's biological gender.

It is very likely that TenNapel was simply referring to the journalist's biological gender: There is no evidence that TenNapel was making any claims regarding the journalist's psychological gender.

It is not appropriate to use Wikipedia as a platform to push any particular viewpoint or use of language. That is why it is important to use objective descriptions rather than subjective ones.

BoiledAlaska (talk) 05:30, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi again,

There is no evidence to suggest that TenNapel was referring to the journalist's psychological gender or gender identity when using the word "man".

The word "man" has several definitions, including:

• A person who is psychologically male.
• A person who is biologically male.

Many people (likely including TenNapel) use the term "man" to mean "person who is biologically male". Using the term in this way makes no judgement or assumption about whether the person is psychcologically male or whether or not they identify as a man.

So there is no evidence that any misgendering occurred.

Now, if TenNapel had insisted that the journalist was psychcologically male, or that they identified as a man, then misgendering would have indeed occurred.

It is vital to understand that words have multiple meanings, and that not all people use the word "man" to mean the same thing.

BoiledAlaska (talk) 00:08, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Particularly, more care needs to be taken to adhere to a neutral point of view in order to avoid Wikipedia:Libel. Any accusations against TenNapel must be accompanied by a substantive source that has given TenNapel the right of reply.

I feel there is the possibility here that the editors' personal opinions of TenNapel are affecting their judgement with respect to these two considerations.

BoiledAlaska (talk) 00:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the new wording that describes TenNapel referring to the birth-assigned gender of the journalist is a big improvement on the previous assumption that he mis-gendered the journalist.

So although I think it is far more likely that TenNapel was simply referring to the biological gender of the journalist, I can accept "birth-assigned gender" as a proxy for this concept.

BoiledAlaska (talk) 10:31, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

You are fundamentally mistaken about the purpose of Wikipedia, and specifically the purpose of this talk page. The goal is to summarize reliable sources, not to extrapolate from those sources. This page is not a platform for providing TenNapel's public relations efforts.

Wikipedia is not the place to share original research on the difference between sex (which is based on biology, but is still more complicated than you are describing) and gender (which is a social construct, and is also more complicated than you are describing). Reliable sources have already discussed this in exhaustive depth. Your over-simplification of these topics is at odds with mainstream science, but more importantly, your opinions on these issues are totally irrelevant to this article.

Clumsy euphemisms such as "birth assigned gender" are not neutral, and are also not in the formal tone expected of Wikipedia articles. Grayfell (talk) 19:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, as for libel, this term has legal implications. Wikipedia doesn't allow editors to make legal threats on talk pages. Talk pages are not the proper channel for this. If you don't intend to bring legal action, bringing it up here will only be seen as an attempt to cause a chilling effect, and will also be seen as disruptive. Grayfell (talk) 20:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

You are fundamentally mistaken about the purpose of Wikipedia, and specifically the purpose of this talk page. The goal is to summarize reliable sources, not to extrapolate from those sources. This page is not a platform for providing TenNapel's public relations efforts.

What type of assumption is this? I would say that you have no idea about basic logic or the English language. But out opinions of each others' abilities are irrelevant, and I expect you to keep those sorts of comments to yourself, as I will mine from now on.

Your over-simplification of these topics is at odds with mainstream science, ...

I *agree* with mainstream science: And I believe TenNapel was referring to the biological gender of the journalist. There is no evidence that TenNapel was making any judgement about any other aspect of the journalist's gender.

Clumsy euphemisms such as "birth assigned gender" are not neutral, and are also not in the formal tone expected of Wikipedia articles.

It is also important not to use clumsy dis-phemisms such as "mis-gendered". I vote that we simply stick with the observed facts, and state that TenNapel referred to the "biological gender" of the journalist.

The rest of your comment is completely baseless.

In summary, there is no evidence that TenNapel was using the term "he" to refer to anything other than biological gender. No reputable sources have attempted to contact him to clarify his stance. If it turns out that TenNapel was using the word "he" to delineate the person as a man in every sense of the word, I would agree that TenNapel had misidentified the gender of the journalist.

BoiledAlaska (talk) 20:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)