Talk:Manchester United F.C.: Difference between revisions
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I was expecting a criticism section here because of their reputation amongst non-fans. [[User:Wolf O'Donnel|Wolf O'Donnel]] ([[User talk:Wolf O'Donnel|talk]]) 23:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC) |
I was expecting a criticism section here because of their reputation amongst non-fans. [[User:Wolf O'Donnel|Wolf O'Donnel]] ([[User talk:Wolf O'Donnel|talk]]) 23:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC) |
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:Criticism sections are generally not approved. They usually fail to add notable information in a neutral war, and end up sections where just any negative news article congregates. [[User:Koncorde|Koncorde]] ([[User talk:Koncorde|talk]]) 23:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) |
:Criticism sections are generally not approved. They usually fail to add notable information in a neutral war, and end up sections where just any negative news article congregates. [[User:Koncorde|Koncorde]] ([[User talk:Koncorde|talk]]) 23:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC) |
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== Lead lacks a uniform scheme for numbers. == |
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In the intro/lead it currently says this "with a record 20 League titles, 12 FA Cups, five League Cups and a record 21 FA Community Shields" |
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Should it not say "5 League Cups" instead of "five League Cups" it looks weird using two standards to represent numbers in the same sentence. |
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The next sentence goes on to use "Three" and "One" instead of "3" and "1". In my opinion everything should be an integer 0-9 or everything |
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should be written out explicitly, but the current system of using them intermixed is a mess. [[Special:Contributions/80.5.174.91|80.5.174.91]] ([[User talk:80.5.174.91|talk]]) 04:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC) |
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Semi-protected edit request on 26 February 2020
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Nathan Bishop has been given the squad number 30 after his move from Southend United.
Inclusion of three UEFA trophies in separate years as a 'treble'
While it is clearly a noteworthy fact that Manchester United are the only team to win all three UEFA competitions, certainly worthy of mention in the relevant section of the article, there is no justification for its inclusion as a 'treble' in the Doubles and Trebles section of the article; it is not a treble. I removed the 'treble' from the section with an explanation in this edit, before it was re-added by another editor.
A treble is clearly defined as "when a club team wins three trophies in a single season" excluding exceedingly short competitions such as Community Shields, Super Cups etc. To redefine winning three UEFA competitions across different years as a treble is clearly puffery, and, given the already extraordinary list of achievements of the club (more trophies than any other), I really don't understand the need to overstate achievements by warping clear definitions to claim some 'extra' level of achievement that simply isn't recognised as a treble. —Formulaonewiki 18:27, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- It's not "puffery" though. UEFA has referred to the accomplishment as a treble (see here). If you want to find somewhere else to put it in the Honours section, be my guest, but I object to it being removed outright. – PeeJay 18:46, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- The only reference in that article to the achievement of winning all three competitions as being a treble is as follows
"By that time, [Bayern] had already completed their European 'treble' with a two-legged defeat of FC Girondins de Bordeaux in the UEFA Cup showpiece"
. The inverted commas around 'treble', and the fact that is the only explicit reference in that article to the feat being defined as such, clearly indicates it was described as such in a tongue-in-cheek manner, and this is no basis to override the widely-accepted definition of a treble as being three trophies in the same year. —Formulaonewiki 18:55, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- The only reference in that article to the achievement of winning all three competitions as being a treble is as follows
- It is already mentioned in the prose in the Honours section of the article, where I absolutely agree it should be mentioned as an accomplishment. I only object to it being listed as a technical treble alongside true trebles such as the remarkable European treble of 1998–99. It is worth noting this is also what has been done on the Chelsea article. —Formulaonewiki 18:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- The use of the inverted commas does not suggest it was tongue in cheek, unless you are also suggesting "Ajax's brand of 'total football' overwhelmed opponents at the start of the 1970s" is also being tongue in cheek. Instead it is more likely to attribute emphasis to the naming of the convention of having won the three unique trophies across multiple seasons. Koncorde (talk) 19:12, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- I remain unconvinced that a single passing mention provides any basis to overhaul an age-old definition of a treble as being three trophies in the same year. Context is important to the use of the inverted commas, and I disagree that the use of them around 'total football' is the same. Either way, as I just said, I fail to see how a passing mention of the word 'treble' in an article defies conventional definitions. For example, articles such as this popularly claim that Liverpool achieved an 'international treble'; this clearly doesn't provide a basis to start redefining the term treble as including Super cups etc. —Formulaonewiki 19:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- You can disagree all you like, but without you inserting your opinion on what the writer intended with the inverted commas it doesn't stand as an argument. There is also no formal definition of "treble" either. There is a colloquial one, but as per any such list it is full of personal bias, club bias, national bias, league and trophy bias. Which ones count, which ones don't, is it in one calendar year, or is it in one annual year, or "season" (which is problematic with the Nordic leagues for instance) bla bla bla. In effect, if someone says "this was a treble" in a reliable source that can be attributed to then it really doesn't matter because you'll struggle to find any single authoritative source on what is a formal definition. Our own article on the matter lacks any single source attributing the meaning Treble (association football) and is a massive case of WP:SYNTH and Original Research. Koncorde (talk) 20:24, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- I remain unconvinced that a single passing mention provides any basis to overhaul an age-old definition of a treble as being three trophies in the same year. Context is important to the use of the inverted commas, and I disagree that the use of them around 'total football' is the same. Either way, as I just said, I fail to see how a passing mention of the word 'treble' in an article defies conventional definitions. For example, articles such as this popularly claim that Liverpool achieved an 'international treble'; this clearly doesn't provide a basis to start redefining the term treble as including Super cups etc. —Formulaonewiki 19:57, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- The use of the inverted commas does not suggest it was tongue in cheek, unless you are also suggesting "Ajax's brand of 'total football' overwhelmed opponents at the start of the 1970s" is also being tongue in cheek. Instead it is more likely to attribute emphasis to the naming of the convention of having won the three unique trophies across multiple seasons. Koncorde (talk) 19:12, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
- It is already mentioned in the prose in the Honours section of the article, where I absolutely agree it should be mentioned as an accomplishment. I only object to it being listed as a technical treble alongside true trebles such as the remarkable European treble of 1998–99. It is worth noting this is also what has been done on the Chelsea article. —Formulaonewiki 18:58, 5 July 2020 (UTC)
Squad numbers- Academy players
I do not see why we have u23s/u18s on this page as they have their own dedicated page. All U23/U18 players have squad numbers so in theory all players need to be added to this page. Which would over load the system, surely it is better to keep 1st team players only on here and use the reserves/academy page for these players 5.198.42.106 (talk) 15:20, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- They don't all have squad numbers. They have numbers they wear on their training kit that happen to match with their squad numbers (for those who have been registered for competitions), but they don't all have squad numbers. Having this list here is useful to indicate players who aren't considered part of the first team but who have played the odd senior game. – PeeJay 18:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think it should be mentioned only the players that have been included in the first-team games, like it was in the last season. There were players who played in EFL Trophy, but only players that played for the first team were included in that list. BORNinOHRIDmacedonia (talk) 21:28, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- These are the players registered to play for the season at premierleague.com and they are the players that should be on the main article, the Reserves and academy and the loans from there shouldn't be on this page. Govvy (talk) 10:44, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe it has to be named "List of under-23s and academy players to have featured in a first-team matchday squad" instead of "List of under-23s and academy players with senior squad numbers". It sounds much better. BORNinOHRIDmacedonia (talk) 13:23, 12 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think it should be mentioned only the players that have been included in the first-team games, like it was in the last season. There were players who played in EFL Trophy, but only players that played for the first team were included in that list. BORNinOHRIDmacedonia (talk) 21:28, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2020
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For the 'Short name' in the info box, should there not be a slash (/) between "Utd" and "United"? Looking at the source it looks like someone has put a line break there instead. 194.28.127.53 (talk) 01:14, 11 October 2020 (UTC)
- "United" in itself seems to be another nickname. I've added bullet points to make that clear. ◢ Ganbaruby! (Say hi!) 06:59, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Criticism section
I was expecting a criticism section here because of their reputation amongst non-fans. Wolf O'Donnel (talk) 23:09, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
- Criticism sections are generally not approved. They usually fail to add notable information in a neutral war, and end up sections where just any negative news article congregates. Koncorde (talk) 23:42, 21 December 2020 (UTC)
Lead lacks a uniform scheme for numbers.
In the intro/lead it currently says this "with a record 20 League titles, 12 FA Cups, five League Cups and a record 21 FA Community Shields" Should it not say "5 League Cups" instead of "five League Cups" it looks weird using two standards to represent numbers in the same sentence. The next sentence goes on to use "Three" and "One" instead of "3" and "1". In my opinion everything should be an integer 0-9 or everything should be written out explicitly, but the current system of using them intermixed is a mess. 80.5.174.91 (talk) 04:55, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
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