Talk:Sushant Singh Rajput

FAQ — READ THIS FIRST if you are requesting changes

• Why are you saying it's suicide? The investigation is ongoing!

Various credible secondary sources - in this case, mainstream news outlets - reported that Mumbai's and the AIIMS' medical examiners determined it was suicide and that Rhea Chakraborty is being accused of abetment of suicide. Note that the final determination of death doesn't mean the investigation is over, especially in a case involving a celebrity (see also Chris Benoit double-murder and suicide). We are also not allowed to cite investigation or government documents as they are considered primary sources.

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• This death is mysterious! Why aren't you calling it as such?

The actual mechanism of death - asphyxia via hanging - is publicly known and not seriously disputed by any sensible party. We also do not use words or terms that imply profoundness where there is only vagueness in Wikipedia's voice - they must always be attributed.

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• This is a case of murder! Why aren't you saying so?

No official investigations or credible news reports are calling Rajput's death a murder, with the CBI-sanctioned AIIMS autopsy review definitively ruling it out. Wikipedia does not include fringe or conspiracy theories that no credible source is taking seriously, and our biographical policy likewise forbids us from including them in this particular instance.

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• Why are you rejecting my interpretation of the sources?

We're not allowed to synthesize new information by "reading between the lines". We are limited to whatever information the source explicitly says. Creative interpretations of sources also flagrantly violate our biographical policy.

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• The Central Bureau of Investigation said (something)! Why aren't you mentioning this?!

The CBI has outright stated that they are not shar[ing] any details of the investigation with the media and that any claims attributed to it (As of the time of this writing, 19 September 2020 UTC) are not credible. It should be noted this is generally standard operating procedure for serious investigations the world over, generally to avoid prejudicing the case before it goes to a jury or (as has happened here) inflaming a trial by media.

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• Why are you censoring his height?

Unless a person is notable specifically for their height or their height is otherwise relevant (such as for sports where height/weight is a major factor), Wikipedia's policy is to omit height from a person's article and infoboxes. Sushant Singh Rajput's article is no exception; the only time height was ever mentioned in the article was either as the result of unsourced edits prior to the announcement of his death or additions made immediately after the news broke on social media, all instances of which were reverted quickly on the English-language Wikipedia for having no source and which would shortly after be removed from the article on Hindi Wikipedia for the same reason. See Talk:Sushant_Singh_Rajput/Archive_1#Height for more details.

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• If the news of Rajput's demise broke around 2:15 p.m. then why did the article have death info around 9 am?

The confusion here is of time zones. News broke around 2:15 p.m. IST. Wikipedia shows timestamps in UTC. IST is 5 hour 30 minutes ahead of UTC. Death info first appeared in article at 8:55 UTC (this edit) which means at 14:25 IST (2:25 p.m.)

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• What about Sushant's sister Priyanka? Doesn't she get a say in this?

Unless she (or one of her supporters) has additional sources that can back up her assertions, no. It should be noted that Priyanka is herself the subject of an FIR in connection with the case.

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• Why are you rejecting my edit request out of hand?

When someone requests an edit that is very likely to be challenged, they are required to provide links to credible published secondary sources that support the edit they wish to make. In addition, requests to make edits against a consensus or that are part of an ongoing dispute will generally be declined.

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 March 2021

You can add the fact his performance in Dil Bechara got a posthumous nomination for the Filmfare Award for Best Actor Correctoryamum (talk) 11:34, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Please provide sourcing. Thanks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:50, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 May 2021

Change the cause of death from suicide by hanging to death under investigation as CBI has not officially declared anything . You can further verify this by visiting CBI website or by coroborrating with the letter sent by CBI to Dr Subramanyam Swami Raj jadhav2000 (talk) 19:01, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Change cause of death Raj jadhav2000 (talk) 19:02, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Raj jadhav2000 We don't wait for official determinations, we summarize what independent reliable sources say. If those sources are incorrect, please take that up with them. Please review the frequently asked questions at the top of this page. 331dot (talk) 19:27, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Asphyxia due to Hanging

We don't know if he had suicided or been killed but one thing is for sure, he died due to Asphyxia (deficient supply of oxygen) so why not change it from "Suicide by Hanging" to "Asphyxia due to Hanging"?

@331dot: Please give a reason on why my edit got undone. Thank you Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 10:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

‎Kartsriv (ec) Please see the FAQ at the top of this page, which should answer your questions. Reliable sources describe the death as a suicide, we don't wait for official determinations. If the reliable sources are incorrect, you will need to take that up with them to get them to issue retractions. I still don't totally understand why it is so hard to believe this man might have committed suicide, where I live celebrities committing suicide is not uncommon(such as Robin Williams, Kurt Cobain). 331dot (talk) 10:43, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

[1] has some hints on "why", warning, it's long. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:56, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: Thank you for your reply, 331dot! I'd like to point out the there are reliable sources which suggest that the investigation is on going and there is a possibility that this might not be a suicide but one thing is certain which is the fact the he died due to Asphyxia so why not put that instead of suicide? Having a mutual discussion. Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 10:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

‎Kartsriv Again, please review the FAQ above, this will address your questions. As I said, we don't wait for official determinations, we summarize what independent reliable sources say, and they say suicide. It is true that the investigation is not finished, and the article states this- that doesn't change what the reliable sources are saying. 331dot (talk) 10:57, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: But those same articles also say "Asphyxia due to Hanging" which is sorta the same as "Suicide by Hanging". By changing it to the former we are being a little more specific on the reason of death. The fact is Asphyxia is more accurate than suicide. Sorry to bother you but I am just trying my best to keep the data accurate. The official postmortem reports concluded that Rajput died of asphyxia due to hanging. So to keep the facts straight, 100% he has died from Asphyxia but there is a slight uncertainty for suicide to being the cause so why not go for it? Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 11:04, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

‎Kartsriv There is a difference between the cause of death and the motivation of the death. Asphyxia can be caused by means other than suicide(accidents, murder) so it isn't the same at all. 331dot (talk) 11:09, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: This makes sense. Thank you for your time taken for explaining me this. Have a good day! - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 11:16, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

There is no need to mention either murder or suicide at this time. VV 17:52, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Sources questioning the credibility of the AIIMS report

- AIIMS and AIIMS Panel is not the same
- Official AIIMS report has not been made public
- Major News Articles which reported the AIIM confirmation specifies that it had been LEAKED to them
SOURCES:
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- The credibility of the Doctor of AIIMS who told "SSR's death is suicide" has been tarnished since he had switched his statements multiple times. His audio tape has leaked which stated that SSR was murder and had not suicided. Doc's words are not reliable.
SOURCES:
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- The postmortem report is invalid because no time of death is mentioned.
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My point is:
AIIMS didn't confirm it as suicide. One AIIMS doctor representing the panel told who has a history of flipping statements and had leaked an audio clip stating that SSR was murdered. The doctor is uncertain hence we can't take him as a reliable source. There is no proper source stating that it was a suicide hence we can for time being remove the reason for death. I have too many articles against the AIIMS report. This means we basically don't have any reliable sources for his suicide. So it's best if we remove the term Suicide as we are not certain. Thank you - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 15:47, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

You are not listening to what you've been told. We don't need official confirmation. If you don't like what the sources have said, you need to take that up with them, not us. 331dot (talk) 15:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: Your own sources states that it was not AIIMS which confirmed SSR's death rather it was one Doc with bad credibility representing one panel of AIIMS not the whole AIIM. AIIM as an entity never released any confirmation. Just got blocked from Wiki Discord Server. Please don't block me. I am just trying to shine light on actual fact. Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 16:08, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I want to add on to that; what you are doing is original research. Things like "The doctor is uncertain hence we can't take him as a reliable source" or "There is no proper source stating that it was a suicide" are just your own interpretation of various news articles. If reliable sources claim something, as they claim this was a suicide, we follow them. Wikipedia doesn't operate based on the "truth" but what reliable sources tell us. We cannot use information from various reliable sources to make an original argument, as you are doing. Zoozaz1 talk 16:09, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Kartsriv Zoozaz1 is quite correct. Reliable sources call this a suicide, and Wikipedia summarizes those sources, so that's the terminology we use. If you think those sources are incorrect, you will need to speak to them throughout the world and get them to issue retractions, not rewrite this article based on your conclusions. 331dot (talk) 16:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: and @Zoozaz1:, Thank for your response! I will go step by step. The article which you're mentioning says that it was confirmed by one doctor representing one panel and not the complete AIIMS. This is not my original research. Please READ THAT ARTICLE. Thank you - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 16:19, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

As I've said, we don't need an official determination. Frankly, you are just going around in circles. 331dot (talk) 16:25, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I agree with 331dot here. The most I could see is an attribution to Gupta, but that is already in the article. Unless you show a consensus of reliable sources directly stating that it was not suicide (or it was uncertain) because we cannot rely on Gupta then the current content will remain. Zoozaz1 talk 16:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

And if that were the case, they would have said that already and we wouldn't be having this discussion. 331dot (talk) 16:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: and @Zoozaz1:. Okay fine, Let's go step by step. Your article states that Gupta is the one who confirmed that SSR's reason of death is Suicide. Do you agree with this? - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 16:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

We are going in circles. Yes, Gupta was the one who confirmed it, and the rest of the steps you outlined above may or may not be true. You are trying to prove that what you believe is the truth, but that is not what Wikipedia is for. Again, you are trying to create your own argument from various reliable sources, but what we need is a consensus of reliable sources explicitly saying your argument, which do not exist. I don't think there is much of a point to continuing this since those sources don't exist. Zoozaz1 talk 17:02, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: and @Zoozaz1:, I got a source which explains my exact point. Please read this. Thank you - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 16:54, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Please read this: Breaking its silence over the Sushant Singh Rajput probe, AIIMS on Monday issued a statement that it has submitted the expert opinion report on Rajput's post-mortem to the CBI directly. Affirming that it is a legal matter, AIIMS said that any inputs on the report by the Medical boars must be obtained by CBI. This statement comes after AIIMS panel's chief Dr Sudhir Gupta's alleged leak to several media outlets claiming that murder had been ruled out.

You need to show a consensus of sources for your position. Otherwise it would violate due weight. Zoozaz1 talk 17:02, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Please check these two links: 1 and 2. These two links clearly mention that AIIMS gave the report to CBI and Gupta leaked it prior. AIIMS didn't confirm Gupta's claims. I know this is getting heated up so I want to tell you something. I have nothing against any admins. I just want to get the truth. I am sorry @331dot: and @Zoozaz1: for stressing you up. This has become a nation phenomenon. Thank you. - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 17:13, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

All the source says is that Gupta leaked the report. It doesn't dispute the reliability of the report itself and it certainly doesn't say he was murdered. I'm going to repeat myself; you need a consensus of reliable sources saying "Sushant Singh Rajput was murdered," and that consensus of reliable does not exist. Right now, the vast majority of reliable sources say Gupta committed suicide, and even if you or I believe otherwise according to Wikipedia's policies we must follow those reliable sources. Zoozaz1 talk 17:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@Zoozaz1: Yes all the sources indeed says Gupta leaked the report. So you're citing Gupta's words not AIIMS's words. You don't have any proper proof that SSR died other than a report from someone (Gupta) who has a history of twisting his claims. If you have AIIMS (The Organization's) word them this would be reliable. Stating SSR died due to suicide by quoting Gupta is not correct. I want to make sure everyone gets this. Gupta (Unreliable Person) told SSR committed suicide not AIIMS. AIIMS just sent a undisclosed report to CBI. Now all this dispute can be fixed if we remove the word "Suicide" or use something else like "Asphyxia due to Hanging", "Not Confirmed", "Under Investigation" or something like that. Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the article says these are Gupta's words. That's what I was talking about with attribution before. When you say "you don't have any proper proof that SSR died other than a report from someone (Gupta) who has a history of twisting his claims" you again are misinterpreting how Wikipedia works. I, you, or proof you bring up is not relevant here. What's relevant is what the consensus of reliable sources directly say, and they say this was suicide. I don't see a point in continuing this discussion because the only thing that matters is what those sources explicitly say, and there are no or very few reliable sources that explicitly say it is uncertain if this was a suicide. Zoozaz1 talk 18:31, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@Zoozaz1: Non of the sources say it's a suicide. They say it's a claim which Gupta has done. Please cite me a line from a link which confirms his suicide. If you have a proper source then I will stop right here. Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Here is a source cited in the lead: https://www.freepressjournal.in/mumbai/sushant-singh-rajputs-death-complete-timeline-of-investigation-from-june-14-till-present-day. If you look at the death section of the article there are a plethora of sources declaring his death suicide. Zoozaz1 talk 18:49, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@Zoozaz1: I see. Thanks for sending the link! The only thing which is a reliable is the Mumbai Police Autopsy (Postmortem) which states the cause of death as asphyxia due to hanging

@331dot: and @Zoozaz1: This article just confirmed something groundbreaking. AIIMS sent the following: The medical board has submitted the report directly to the CBI as required. Being a legal matter, any inputs on the report submitted by the Medical Board would have to be obtained from the CBI," read the AIIMS statement. - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 17:30, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Please someone help me to contact other admins. Thank you Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I am not particularly stressed about this. There is no specific need for admins here. I am not commenting here as an admin. You are still doing as Zoozaz1 has said. Your points should be raised with the media outlets with whose reporting you disagree with. When they change, we will. Not before. Thank you. 331dot (talk) 18:24, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: Please read what I sent to Zoozaz1: Yes all the sources indeed says Gupta leaked the report. So you're citing Gupta's words not AIIMS's words. You don't have any proper proof that SSR died other than a report from someone (Gupta) who has a history of twisting his claims. If you have AIIMS (The Organization's) word them this would be reliable. Stating SSR died due to suicide by quoting Gupta is not correct. I want to make sure everyone gets this. Gupta (Unreliable Person) told SSR committed suicide not AIIMS. AIIMS just sent a undisclosed report to CBI. Now all this dispute can be fixed if we remove the word "Suicide" or use something else like "Asphyxia due to Hanging", "Not Confirmed", "Under Investigation" or something like that. Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 18:22, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: After all this gets resolved. I hope we'll still be in good terms. Cheers - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 18:32, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

Kartsriv I am not on bad terms with you. But I will say that your persistence on this matter is becoming disruptive. You've been told why your argument is not acceptable. 331dot (talk) 18:36, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: No I still can't understand. Please cite me one source from AIIMS (The organization itself not Gupta) where it says SSR dies by commuting suicide. If the source is good then I will stop. Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 18:42, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

I'm not here to do original research. You are free to believe as you wish, but Wikipedia will not be changed to match your research and conclusions. You need to go to the media outlets of the world to get them to change their reporting. Good luck. 331dot (talk) 18:51, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: and @Zoozaz1: I have a source which is much more reliable than your source. This is from the CBI. A press release which states that no aspect has been ruled out as of date. SOURCE IMAGE You can see the press release on CBI's website archive and use the date 28.09.2020. I am pretty sure this would be enough to remove suicide as the reason.

Other Reputed News Articles.
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- Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 19:21, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

It's not, we already know that. Have you even read the FAQ up top? 331dot (talk) 19:28, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

@331dot: Your proof for Suicide is not reliable. My proof is from the CBI is from the government. CBI said that no aspect has been ruled out. You don't need to add murder or anything. Just remove the term suicide (We both know it's not confirmed). So just don't mention anything. Asphyxia due to hanging is the most accurate as it can get. Information is not diluted. Asphyxia has been caused due to hanging. This is proper and accurate. Thanks - Call me Karthik 😉🤞 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 20 May 2021 (UTC)

PS: The source I linked is not the same from the FAQ infact it was released after the one in the FAQ. Please read it.