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Changing the name

Google:

  • matsoun-6.360.000
  • matsoni-91.100

I think it should be changed to Matsoun.--46.241.179.18 (talk) 08:01, 22 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its in your Armenian google --Obitauri (talk) 13:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOR

This article was written: It supposedly originated from ancient Georgia and later propagated to many neighbor countries, e.g. Armenia. With reference to the book Goldstein, Darra: The Georgian Feast.
In this book is not written about it. This is original research!!!!! On the referenced page is written about milk:
Page 36

Yogurt (matsoni), pungent cheese, and immature wine (machari) often serve as counterpoints to ground walnuts; vinegar or fruit juices and fruit leathers likewise lend balance. But even though ground walnuts find their way into many dishes, the flavors of Georgian food are not redundant


Page 51

YOGURT (matsoni). Georgian yogurt is some of the best in the world, whether made from cow's milk or the even richer water buffalo milk. Matsoni is never gelatinous but always shimmery, with a pleasant tartness.

Reference added Zolokin, forever blocked in the Russian section. I deleted the original study--Lori-m (talk) 16:33, 28 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why are there Wikipedia entries for both "matsun" and "matsoni"? They appear to be the same thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rks22 (talk • contribs) 23:39, 29 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Matsoni is Georgian food not Armenian. Armenians just took it to their region and everyone knows its Georgian Obitauri (talk) 11:34, 9 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Vandalism. In this article there are sources. You delete the word not only from the article, but from the quote of source--Lori-m (talk) 09:25, 11 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see some fake Armenian sources. You armenians want to steal everything and say its yours. I wont let you do this! Get off this fake sources! --Obitauri (talk) 15:28, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Did you forget about the rules of ethical behavior (see Wikipedia:Civility)? In this article there is no Armenian source! You're breaking the rules. Your actions is vandalism. In English, the drink is called Matzoon, not Matsoni--Lori-m (talk) 23:47, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The name is what the reliable sources say it is, which you deleted without any excuse because they do not suit you. Moreover, the only source related to Matsoni and Armenia, which you cited, says that the product is "used in Armenia", not that is necessarily Armenian or of Armenian origin.--Permaveli (talk) 23:51, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
What are the sources speak of Georgian origin? What are the sources said Matsoni and not Matzoon?--Lori-m (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The ones that you keep deleting. Also, if you find sources to the contrary, that does not give you the right to delete previous sources. You will have to reconcile the two, instead of crying vandalism.--Permaveli (talk) 00:29, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I do not cry, I'm telling the truth--Lori-m (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Matzoon or Matsoni

In English, the drink is called Matzoon, not Matsoni. See Google Books and scholar.google. Also in contrast to the Matsoni, the word Matzoon use all the encyclopedia and dictionaries.

The name "matzoon" was changed to "matsoni" contrary to logic and rules of Wikipedia. I return to the previous more correct title--Lori-m (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

source

  • Anya Von Bremzen, John C. Welchman. Please to the Table: The Russian Cookbook. - is not IRS. This is not a book of science, it is a book of recipes
  • Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia - Darra Goldstein does not say that the drink of Georgian origin. This conclusion is the original study
  • David Shrayer-Petrov. Jonah and Sarah: Jewish Stories of Russia and America- is not IRS. It's also not a book of science, it is a book of stories and memories. In addition vney also does not say that a drink of Georgian origin.
  • Joseph A. Kurmann, Jeremija Lj Rašić, Manfred Kroger: Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products - In this book, no mention of the Georgian origin of the drink, but it speaks directly about Armenian origin ( See reference [1]). In the book is written: Of Armenian origin. But you ignore the source of the article and delete the word "Armenian", and in the quotation from the book replaces the word "Armenian" in the "Georgian". This is vanadlizm! ( See Wikipedia:Vandalism)
  • Columbia Encyclopedia // fermented milk // The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. Columbia University Press. - In this book, the word "Georgian" is missing. It used the phrase "Armenian matzoon"

You have perfected the war edits. You're breaking a few rules wikipedia (WP:EW, WP:IRS, WP:CON).--Lori-m (talk) 14:42, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

CANT YOU SEE THIS SOURCE AND STOP TAKING HERE FAKE SOURCES EVERYONE KNOWS MATSONI IS GEORGIAN! http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1740-0929.2006.00409.x/abstract — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obitauri (talk • contribs) 20:07, 17 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It does not say that the Georgian origin. There is no mention of the origin--Lori-m (talk) 08:12, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Clean your eyes and READ IN REFERENCES ONE SOURCE WHAT SAYS! --Obitauri (talk) 11:43, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

^ Kenji Uchidai, Tadasu Urashima, Nino Chaniashvili, Ikiti Arai, Hidemasa Motoshima. Major microbiota of lactic acid bacteria from Matsoni, a traditional Georgian fermented milk. Animal Science Journal, Vol. 78, Issue 1, pp. 85-91, February 2007

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1740-0929.2006.00409.x/abstract

Check references! --Obitauri (talk) 11:46, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


^ Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 34 --Obitauri (talk) 11:49, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see everything. In the source is no mention of the Georgian origin of the drink. The word "traditional" doesn't say anything about the of origin. In contrast to this source we have in the article references that speak directly about the origin.--Lori-m (talk) 18:30, 18 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It snot ARMENIAN STOP TRYING TO STEAL IT! It is Georgian! Bringing sources From USA dont prooves its Armenian... Why? Cause you armenians went in Usa and brought Matsoni here, Americans thought it was Armenian and wrote in their book its Armenian. I dont care and no one cares, YOU KNOW ITS NOT ARMENIAN AND ITS GEORGIAN YOU JUST WANT TO STEAL IT I WOTN LET YOU DO THIS! --Obitauri (talk) 12:17, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go: "Lawrence Eldred Kirk // Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, 1948 , p.12 (41)

Matsoni, originating in Georgia. A lactobacillus (L. mazun) , a streptococcus, a spore-producing bacillus and a sugar- fermenting yeast are responsible for the fermentation of this product" Enough? --Obitauri (talk) 13:21, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51&dq=%22Matsoni%22&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=NbHBUYC0FYv0sgbQmYHoDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Matsoni%22&f=false

^ Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 51

See what is here: "Yogurt (matsoni). Georgian yogurt is some of the best in the world..." and continue reading. It completely says its Georgian and not Armenian, you can see other sources too just dont choose ones which say Armenian origin which is not true --Obitauri (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

First of all I checked and you was removing sources which said Matsoni was Georgian, Then replacing with sources which says its Armenian and crying vandalism then. First of all discuss which source is true, then edit them. --Lori-m (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Obitauri (talk • contribs) 13:43, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Matsoni, originating in Georgia. A lactobacillus (L. mazun) , a streptococcus, a spore-producing bacillus and a sugar- fermenting yeast are responsible for the fermentation of this product" Enough? — What? You're a liar. I added this source. It says, "Matzoon or mazun, originating in Armenia". See [2].
See what is here: "Yogurt (matsoni). Georgian yogurt is some of the best in the world.." — Show me where it says "Georgian origin"? There's no such. This original study. I have already spoken on the talk page. A hundred times I will not repeat. Call the administrator. I will not let you engage in vandalism--Lori-m (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]


you are great vandal and why I am liar first time you REMOVED several SOURCES saying GEORGIAN ORIGIN! HERE YOU GO AND CHECK: 

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 51

http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51&dq=%22Matsoni%22&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=NbHBUYC0FYv0sgbQmYHoDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Matsoni%22&f=false

THIS Source says GEORGIAN. I am not breaking any rule, here is source --Obitauri (talk) 18:49, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In your source is no mention of Georgian origin. "Georgian yogurt" does not mean that the drink of Georgian origin. As well as the "Armenian cognac" does not mean that cognac is of Armenian descent--Lori-m (talk) 07:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Source says Georgian Origin which later was removed by other before

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 51

http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51&dq=%22Matsoni%22&hl=ru&sa=X&ei=NbHBUYC0FYv0sgbQmYHoDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Matsoni%22&f=false

This totally shows its Georgian. "University of California Press", this is one of most reliable sources. We need to discuss both sources, which says Armenian and other which says Georgian as of this article became battlefield of editing... We need to check both sources... But before we must not say anything about origin in article cause we found 2 sources one says other, 2nd other thing we need to remove origin from article --Obitauri (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC) --Obitauri (talk) 18:57, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In your source is no mention of Georgian origin. "Georgian yogurt" does not mean that the drink of Georgian origin. As well as the "Armenian cognac" does not mean that cognac is of Armenian descent--Lori-m (talk) 07:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This source exactly says it... Georgian Yogurt, why to say Georgian origin yogurt which is non-grammar correct form? Georgian Yogurt means its Georgian --Obitauri (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That could be very problematic. If a source talks about American pizza, then we cannot conclude that pizza originated in America. That would be wp:original research of the worst kind. - DVdm (talk) 13:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This I said to him. However, he does not want to listen to and understand it--Lori-m (talk) 13:48, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I know that you said that, but up to now I couldn't verify the source. Now I can with this: http://books.google.ru/books?id=3PM_FnWgPBAC&pg=PA51. Indeed there is nothing in that supports the assertion.

Obitauri, do you have source that explicitly supports your assertion? - DVdm (talk) 13:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Permaveli also tried to remove Armenian origin and add the Georgian. But then went to set up another article on the same drink (see Matsoni). It is also a violation. Matsoni this is Matzoon. In English, they say "Matzoon", in Russian "Matsoni".--Lori-m (talk) 14:29, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
We have two sources who say the Armenian origin of the drink. About Georgian origin does not say a single source. The fact that you say it's original research.--Lori-m (talk) 13:45, 20 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Obitauri, you're going to answer the question of DVdm [3]? If you do not bring a higher burden of proof then I'll edit the article--Lori-m (talk) 09:53, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Go ahead. That source does not back the statement, not even close. Further reverts by Obitauri can be immediately undone per wp:unsourced and standard user warnings {{uw-unsourced}} can be put on their talk page. Without another source there is nothing to discuss here. - DVdm (talk) 14:14, 29 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. Thanks. What do you think about the article "Matsoni"? "Matzoon" and "Matsoni" is the same thing. It is also a violation. In English, they say "Matzoon", in Russian "Matsoni". Matsoni this is Matzoon--Lori-m (talk) 10:25, 30 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I have no problem with that. I was about to create the Matzoon article, redirecting to Matsoni, but I see that user Permaveli was there first. - DVdm (talk) 11:07, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You dont understand. Look sources. This article and the article "Matsoni" the same thing. It is necessary to remove the article, "Matsoni" and do a redirect to this article.--Lori-m (talk) 13:43, 1 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Edit warring

Note - I have reported the user who made the most recent edits at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring. - DVdm (talk) 20:34, 19 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Matsoni and Matzoon is not same

Sources say: Matzoon or mazun, originating in Armenia. A lactobacillus (L. mazun) , a streptococcus, a spore-producing bacillus and a sugar- fermenting yeast are responsible for the fermentation of this product

Here is no Matzoon, Mazun OR MATSONI. 

Joseph A. Kurmann, Jeremija Lj Rašić, Manfred Kroger: Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products, p. 212. Springer, 1992. ISBN 978-0-442-00869-7.

Also Matsoni is not made like this: MATZOON, mat-soon', a milk food used in Armenia; prepared by exposing milk in open vessels to a heat of 90°F., and when coagulation takes place the curd is broken up by a churning process and salt is added

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p.

Anya Von Bremzen, John C. Welchman. Please to the Table: The Russian Cookbook. New York, NY: Workman Publishing 1990, p. 349

Matsoni and Matzoon is not same thing --Obitauri (talk) 10:30, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Matzoon" and "Matsoni" is the name of one drink. You know it. See Joseph A. Kurmann, Jeremija Lj Rašić, Manfred Kroger //Encyclopedia of fermented fresh milk products: an international inventory of fermented milk, cream, buttermilk, whey, and related products p. 212. Springer, 1992.[4] (MATZOON (En); mazun (Fr, De); matsun, matsoni, maconi.)--Lori-m (talk) 18:54, 17 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]
You said Matzoon is a drink, Matsoni is not drink so are they same --Obitauri (talk) 08:31, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Matzoon and Matsoni are Armenian and Georgian names, corespondigly, for the same milk produkt. And for the sake of clarity it's not a drink. It's served on plates not in glass. Stop miningless arguing--Hayordi (talk) 21:45, 17 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Matsoni is Georgian product and stop writing it comes from Armenia !!!! MGTG (talk) 07:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

bacteria species

The cited paper lists the same organisms as in Bulgarian yogurt, but elsewhere I find a completely different pair: Lactobacillis lactis subsp. cremoris and Acetobacter orientalis.

Oddly, another wiki that claims to be sourced from here also lists the cremoris/Acetobacter combination instead:

Not R (talk) 18:30, 6 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]


Georgian Origin and not "Matzoon"

Matsoni is traditional Georgian food. Some wrong sources, saying its Armenian originated but here are sources supporting Georgian origin: Matsoni (Georgian) 2nd 3rd

Darra Goldstein. The Georgian Feast: The Vibrant Culture and Savory Food of the Republic of Georgia. University of California Press, 1999, p. 34

Someone said that they dont say Georgian Origin but they say Georgian Matsoni, this does not needs to say Origin. They say Georgian. This is enough to get that it means its from Georgia. As here is 2 side and one says Georgian, 2nd Armenian, we must not write origin so people will decide themselves from reading sources, which is true. --Obitauri (talk) 17:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A source that talks about "French cheese" does not support the assertion that cheese originated in France.
A source that talks about "Georgian Matsoni" does not support the assertion that Matsoni originated in Georgia.
None of your sources provide evidence that Matsoni originated in Georgia.
This was explained to you about 15 times now on this talk page and on your user talk page. You have been blocked 3 times for this. Are you aiming at a 4th block?
DVdm (talk) 17:50, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Are you terroring me with block? I do not care. I am starting discussion here AND read source which says GEORGIAN MATSONI, DOES IT NEEDS TO SAY MATSONI GEORGIAN ORIGIN OR WHAT? I can bring many Georgian source talking about Matsoni Georgian origin soon so this article will not stay as Armenian bias wants and also I will not get blocked --Obitauri (talk) 21:30, 4 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Matsoni comes from Georgia!! MGTG (talk) 07:32, 10 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

I propose that Matzoon be merged into Yogurt. I think that the content in the Matzoon article can easily be explained in the context of Yogurt, and the Yogurt article is of a reasonable size that the merging of the small Matzoon article will not cause any problems as far as article size or undue weight is concerned. Note the existing reference to "madzoon" within the Yogurt article. One is essentially a national or regional subset of the other, and madzoon or matzoon are generally terms used among ethnic communities throughout the world to refer to yogurt in general. Discussion of the Caucasus varieties could easily be done within the context of yogurt and as a sub within the Yogurt article. There is otherwise considerable duplication and overlap between the articles. Xenophonix (talk) 22:34, 23 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support, for all the reasons stated, and more—see the history. - DVdm (talk) 07:49, 24 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Unacceptable Proposing to turkify the product is the solution? Matzoon is a distinct milk product documented in numerous medieval manuscrips sourced in the article. Or are you suggesting that all milk products should be merged into the Yoghurt article Hayordi (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 16:03, 27 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Support Multiple reliable sources indicate that matzoon and matsoni are simply alternate names for a kind of yogurt.[5][6][7] There may be minor differences (perhaps in country A, more sheep milk is used and in country B, it is more sour), but they appear to be part of the yogurt family. That the Armenian name was used in medieval manuscripts is irrelevant. To the extent that there are any systematic differences between yogurt as found in Turkey, Greece, Persia, etc., and matzoon found in Armenia and the Caucasus, they can be discussed in the yogurt article itself. PS Please avoid uncivil and ad hominem arguments. --Macrakis (talk) 18:38, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Needs more thorough assessment As yogurt became a general term in English for milk products fermented with mesophile bacteria, matzoon/matsoni can be merged in it. However, it can be kept separate if there is sufficient amount of content justifying it. Currently it's too short, but potentially may be longer. Other similar examples are Qatiq, Bulgarian yogurt, Stewler and Ryazhenka (the latter integrated into Baked milk article). Analogously, Skyr is kept separately from Strained yogurt. The Russian and Japanese articles for matzoon are longer and may contain some useful information. The Russian one also describes e.g. the strained version kamats matzoon. The Japanese one tells how it came to Japan where it is known as Kaspian sea yogurt. This needs to be checked first. --Off-shell (talk) 19:32, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for pointing out the other articles. The Bulgarian yogurt article seems like an equally good candidate for merging into yogurt -- the section "What distinguishes Bulgarian yogurt" gives no compelling reasoning, and has no sources. The "origin" section says it is made "using a unique variety of micro-organism called Lactobacillus bulgaricus" -- but all yogurt uses L. bulgaricus and the cited article is clearly of poor quality.
There used to be an article called "Greek yogurt", but it was renamed strained yogurt some time ago (though "Greek yogurt" has bizarrely come to mean "strained yogurt", most yogurt in Greece is not strained, and most strained yogurt is not from Greece...), so there is no longer the argument from "fairness".
There is no question that there is a range of properties found in yogurt -- from pourable to very stiff, from mild to very acid -- and there are probably differences in the microorganism populations. Even so, it doesn't seem useful to have multiple articles. --Macrakis (talk) 20:50, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The existence of separate articles is justified if their combination would make up a too long and thus unreadable article. I just ran the Japanese article through Google translator to have an idea of the content. It provides some amount of additional information with many references. --Off-shell (talk) 21:13, 15 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why you're bringing up the Japanese Caspian Sea Yogurt. We were discussing this page, Matzoon, and I mentioned Bulgarian yogurt. In each of those, I only see a handful of sentences which would have to be added to the general yogurt article. Perhaps at some point there will be (say) detailed gastronomic, microbiological, and cultural information on each of these, at which point a special article with a {{main|...}} link would be appropriate, but we are far from that. Also, the categories seem to overlap. If we consider that the defining characteristic of Matzoon is that it is pourable, well, there are pourable yogurts made elsewhere as well.... --Macrakis (talk) 14:39, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I brought up the Japanese Caspian Sea Yogurt, because it is Matzoon. This page in Japanese Wikipedia is linked to Matzoon. In a former version of the Matzoon article, it was mentioned that it is called Caspian Sea Yogurt in Japan, but someone deleted it recently for unclear reasons. The sentence is still available in the Yogurt article: "Matsoni is also popular in Japan under the name Caspian Sea Yogurt". The Matzoon cultures were brought to Japan and it is studied in detail there because of its suggested health benefits. The information from the Japanese article can be evaluated and may be put in the Matzoon article here. Then it may become sufficiently long, such that a merger may become unjustified. --Off-shell (talk) 21:08, 16 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. As others have noted, matzoon is simply the Armenian word for "yogurt". That's how it's commonly used in English. Unless there is enough content to warrant a WP:SPLIT, well, the split is unwarranted. We need to remember to separate topics from titles. There should be only one article per topic; though that topic may have multiple titles (the actual title of the article, and all the redirects to it). --В²C ☎ 20:15, 8 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Incorrect Matzoon and yoghurt are two different products and both exist in Armenia under different respective names. Should all Fermented milk products be included in yoghurt article, most of them are either short or don't even have a content at all?--Hayordi (talk) 22:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Unacceptable This is a concrete milk product, different from yogurt. People claiming it's only the Armenian word for Yogurt are not aware with the subject. There are many sorts of Yogurts in Armenia, and not all of them are matzoon and are called matzoon. --Хаченци (talk) 00:32, 12 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • sigh IF the two articles were not merged, would it be appropriate to mention, in both articles, that there is a dispute whether madzoon is a distinct product from yoghurt? I do not see use of the term "yaghurt" as "turkification." It is the word most commonly used in the US and in most countries, regardless of variety. I can say that "madzoon" is, in fact, commonly used in Armenian to refer to a food product which, when switching to English, is called "yoghurt." Yev grnam essel vor mer andanikè, yev urish hy andanikner, zhisht asiga genen. Madzoon and yoghurt are the same product. Xenophonix (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 17:20, 30 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The term yoghurt is turkish, while matzoon is distincly Armenian. It's etymology, history is well documented in Armenian medieval manuscripts starting from 11th century(Grigor Magistros). Armenians where introduced to yogurt after the mongolo-turkish invasion of Armenian Highland, it's subsequent devision and later incorporation of Western Armenia into Ottoman Empire in 16th century. This products have separate origins, separate history. That's the definition of distinction itself. Don't you agree? Hayordi (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per Hayordi. Makes a good argument for distinct and separate histories. -Kai445 (talk) 15:00, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

if the bacterial cultures are the same they can be merged else they are not identical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.200.96.190 (talk) 15:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Strongly Oppose; Unacceptable Matzoon and yogurt are two different things, there are multiple articles for different kinds of milks, breads, fruits, etc. that are not being condensed into one, this one should not be as well. --Hyrudagon (talk) 19:30, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Origins of Matsoni

As I see above this issue had controversy here and mentioned sources supported both sides but now I am providing upper level source that is National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti, here is a link of the patent with description that Matsoni is a traditional Georgian fermented milk product ► http://www.sakpatenti.org.ge/index.php?lang_id=geo&sec_id=325#4 (web-site's English version is under construction but you can easily translate it by Google translate, it will show the text as ""Sour" Georgian traditional fermented milk product"). It was registered by Ministry of Agriculture in 06.09.2011 and approved in 24.01.2012. So by 100% now we can say that this product is definitely from Georgia. Patent also provides additional information that in other parts of Georgia Matsoni also know as Tsvela (in Kiziki area, part of Kakheti), Martsven (in Svaneti), and Tsola (in Saingilo)--g. balaxaZe★ 19:43, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The product is traditional for both countries. It might be even impossible to determine who was the first. If it is possible, this must be a dedicated study done by professional historians / archeologists / ethnographers etc. who could really trace the origin and spread of this product through time. I believe, neither a patent bureau, nor a Ministry, nor the United Nations is a reliable source on this if they don't point to a proper academic study. It looks like, the Armenian origin is supported by medieval literature and language studies. If there is a similar level study supporting Georgian origin, please quote it. --Off-shell (talk) 19:55, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In Armenian literature you can find many things that are far from truth for example that Shota Rustaveli is Armenain author and etc. This is a patent and official recognition it's not a book or an article in newspaper, National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti is weighty institution and it is recognized and respected in the world so when they approved patent this means that it is definitely Georgian because patent could be impossible if it comes from other country.--g. balaxaZe★ 20:11, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
We can simply say that Matsoni and making of Matsoni is an intellectual property of Georgian people and by accepting this in National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti it is automatically accepted in the World Intellectual Property Organization and European Intellectual Property Office. These are so weighty sources and argument that one can't jump over them by medieval fairy tales. --g. balaxaZe★ 20:26, 28 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Medieval sources are primary sources. They just tell you that this product was known in Armenia at that time. Language studies may derive an etymological connection to other words in the language. This is all I learned from this article. I don't know how one prooves that this product originated in Armenia or in Georgia. If the Georgian center has a scientific proof that the product originated in Georgia they must have published it somewhere. In principle, they can simply register the "Matsoni" trademark, while the Armenians may register the "Matzoon" trademark. --Off-shell (talk) 13:24, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]
It is not only about trademark there is a description how it is made, so we should divide Georgian making of Matsoni and Armenian one but Armenian side has no official statement like Georgia.--g. balaxaZe★ 22:09, 29 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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New Sources about Matsoni

I mentioned it before, and now I will reference some other sources indicating that Matsoni if not primarily Georgian at least belongs to both countries. Here in the list National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia - Sakpatenti provides Geographical Indications registered in Georgia where we can easily find Matsoni:


This list provides official documentation for such Georgian products like - Chacha, Churchkhela, Sulguni, Guda, Qvevri, Khvanchkara, Mukuzani, Kindzmarauli, Borjomi and etc..

In addition, there are not only Georgian official sources but also a third party European Patent Office, which also provides links to patents for Matsoni[8]. The only source there about Matzoon was Aloe Matzoon[9] which proves once again that Matsoni is a more Georgian product, or at least can be called Georgian-Armenian.--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 21:40, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is trying to discredit the name "Matsoni". But when the name and origin of the dish are both not Georgian, there exists no reason for that name to be featured as a bold, primary name. It acts subordinately to the original, Armenian designation. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 21:52, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, and by the way, the "National Intellectual Property Center of Georgia" is very much NOT an objective source. Of course the Georgian government will claim the dish as its own. Not a reliable source, I'm afraid. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 21:53, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BaxçeyêReş firstly, you say the name and origin of the dish are both not Georgian but I have already provided sources, which claim otherwise, at least what you say is disputed and not a solid fact. Secondly, there exists a reason WP:COMMONNAME, and as I said (twice[10][11]) per Google NGRAM viewer both names are common in English and can be used in bold. Regarding your comment, "Of course the Georgian government will claim the dish as its own" this shows your attitude and pro-Armenian bias, that is not a fact but just your emotion. The Georgian government doesn't claim Lavash or Dolma but the product which is widely used in the country and definitely has local historical roots. BTW since it is your edit that causes dispute, I will revert to stable version and please stop pushing it. Regards. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 22:26, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Oh BaxçeyêReş and almost forgot to mention, do not jump over thid-party source European Patent Office which clearly says starter (dedo) for "matsoni", wholesome and innocuous Georgian fermented milk product--Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 22:33, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wonderful! Now you have a third-party source to back up the existence of Matsoni. But it still does not change the fact that Matsoni is a VARIATION of Matzoon. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 22:36, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Giorgi Balakhadze If wanting to preserve cultural heritage in the face of Georgian and Azerbaijani revisionism means having a "pro-Armenian bias", then so be it. After all, my own Kurdish culture is being appropriated by the Turkish state.
Tacos are consumed in the United States as much as they are in Central/South American countries. Does that make it an American dish? No. Matsoni is a variation of Matzoon and thus secondary. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 22:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
BaxçeyêReş if you are running out of arguments please stay calm, and do not take it personal and do not edit-war. All this Taco and United States example is nonsense. Again, Lavash and Dolma are also popular in Georgia but no-one claims them. I've provided enough sources and arguments and please do not push that disputed edit. --Ⴂ. ႡႠႪႠႾႠႻႤ★ 22:44, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
What is it with the sudden ad-hominem attacks, Giorgi Balakhadze? Your source only strengthens my arguments. Acknowledge that, and move on, because this is clearly not going anywhere. BaxçeyêReş (talk) 22:49, 21 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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