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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Chamboz (talk | contribs) at 23:13, 11 August 2021 (→born Possibly c. 1191–1193 in the infobox). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Comment

Just curious: Why do I only find Dutch web sites when googling for Ertogrül? Is there an alternative spelling? -- JeLuF 20:47 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)

His name is spelled "Ertuğrul" in modern Turkish.

Ertuğrul's father was named Gündüz Alp. Süleyman was attributed in later centuries seeking a claim to the inheritence of Süleyman Şah bin Qutalmış, founder of the Selçuq-Rûm dynasty. Ref. Oğuznâme, Tevârih-i Âl-i Osman. Compare with Uzunçarşılı, İ.H

I moved the above here since it wasn't really encyclopedic. I have renamed the page Ertugrul but I do not understand your claim that his father wasn't Süleyman. According to this site Ertuğrul had a son named Gündüz Alp, but his father was Süleyman. Süleyman Ibn Kutalmish died in 1086 in Anatolia, while Süleyman, the father of Ertuğrul, fled Central Asia from the Mongol onslaught in the 1220s. –The Phoenix 08:03, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The previous text must be replaced as it is recently proved by a historical document that the father of Ertugrul Gazi was Gunduz Alp. It can be confirmed at Islam Ansiklopedisi (Islamic Encyclopedia) published by Turkiye Diyanet Vakfi Islam Arastirmalari Merkezi which is an official scientific institute. Ryu701 18:07, 26 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The name in Osmanlici

The name in Osmanlici seems mispelled.

ارطغرل غازي 

UzzIYI (talk) 07:14, 15 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ship

The text on the ship should be removed to its own article. Kablammo 23:38, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Now done, courtesy of Wwoods. The link to the new page is in this article. Kablammo 11:42, 31 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dates born/death are confusing

need clarity. --68.94.164.169 (talk) 09:15, 28 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Born in 1190 Death in 1281 Qasim23khan (talk) 11:17, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We have a decent source for death (circa), what's your source for birthyear? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:24, 16 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Haplogroup

Because so many people today claim to be a Prince of the Ottoman Dynasty, and were therefore entitled to inherit, The true male members of the House of Osman, currently twenty-four Princes now in the Line of succession to the former Ottoman throne, and their cousin, the Amuca Kabilesi who are descendants of Gündüz Bey the older brother of Osman I, tested their Y-DNA.

Genetic history of the Turkish people, shows that the common ancestor Ertuğrul of the Kayı tribe, belonged to haplogroup: R1a=6.9% - Typical of Central Asian, Caucasus, Eastern Europeans and Indo-Aryan people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dilek2 (talk • contribs) 17:26, 12 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Infobox and semi-legendary people

Jytdog and Alephb and anyone interested, can I have your input on what should be included in the infobox? Since the facts surrounding this person are disputable, it´s a problem that the infobox looks the way it does. Removing it might be a solution, but we should keep the coin. The articles about his wife and mother have similar problems. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:38, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

we have a ref for his death which is kind of important and i guess recorded since that his when his son took over (here); so that is factual enough. Not his birth date, in fact one of the footnotes says that date is not known. So that should come out. Jytdog (talk) 14:03, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And nobody seems to doubt Osman was his son (Jr is said to have had coins made) so he can stay too. How about father, mother, spouse and burial place? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:40, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I don't know Ottoman history very well, but I see this in the lead: "While his historicity is proven by coins minted by Osman I which identify Ertuğrul as the name of his father, nothing else is known for certain about his life or activities." Unless something's very wrong with that sentence, I'd think the rest should come out. Of course, I'd be open to hearing from someone who knows the subject better in case I'm missing some crucial detail here. Alephb (talk) 18:10, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Come to think of it, it would be nice to have a picture of one of those coins. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:12, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This [1] may very well be it. Of course, we can´t use it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 1 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Gündüz Alp

Phso2, Teavannaa, CLCStudent, anyone interested.

There's been some back-and-forth editing about this [2], the subjects father, lately. The source is clear that Gündüz Alp is a possibility, but this WP-article also claims (currently without ref) that Gündüz Alp is the name of one of his sons, which is a little confusing. Gündüz Alp has one ref that may support this, but I can't read Turkish and have no idea if it's a good source or not. Any good ideas on how to improve the article?

Also, we need to improve the lead, there's stuff in it that's not in the body, some moving may be a solution. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:40, 28 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Almost all major contemporary historians cite Gündüz Alp as Ertugrul's father and say the connection to Suleyman Shah has no basis; Different Ottoman chronicles say different things....the earliest only name Osman as Ertugrul's son and don't mention who his other children were. It's completely plausible that Ertugrul had a son Gündüz Alp who was named AFTER Ertugrul's father. There is a lot of conflicting info. Below is a pic of the honorary tomb of Gündüz Alp, with the clear listing as Osman's "dedesi" (grandfather) and Ertugrul's "babasi" (father), so that's the "official" narrative of the nation it seems. The coin that was found stating the same should be sufficient, I think? I'll look into more sources as soon as I have time! (Picture: https://www.tarihinicinden.com/2019/04/ertugrul-beyin-babasi-gunduzalp.html) Teavannaa (talk) 01:37, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sounds good to me. It would be nice if there are any free images of these coins we could use in the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:18, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Another thing is that the cite for birthdate: unknown seems to be about Osman, not E. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:29, 29 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
If someone has access to this book [3] it may have something useful. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:08, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hello Gråbergs Gråa Sång! The coins minted in Osman I's era do not show the relation of Ertuğrul to Gündüz Alp. There are only names written on the coins as "Osman Ertuğrul Gündüz". So this name "Gunduz" can be of his son and brother of Osman I. I think this should be added to the content 'Biography':

"However, a website on numismatics mentions that the graving only names Ertugrul and makes no mention of his father".(source)

IAmAtHome (talk) 07:21, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

While Aaj News may to some extent be a WP:RS (and they hint at some interesting sources), IMO "a website on numismatics" is not something we should use/include. Per [4] it appears WP:USERG. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
BeshogurTeavannaa, you may want to peek at the Aaj News article as well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anjum bhai?

I have no idea what it is, so I can't tell if it belongs or not. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:05, 4 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Aşıkpaşazade

Lambiam and other interested helpful people. I found something interesting on Quora [5]:

"However, I will give you the relevant parts about Ertuğrul Gazi from Aşıkpaşazade’s Tevârihi Âl-i Osman: The History Of the House Of Osman. This 15th Century history book is the earliest source about Ertuğrul Gazi to the best of my knowledge:

“These three brothers returned whence they had come. They went back to the Plains of Pasin and the Valley of Sürmeli. Ertuğrul did not return with his brothers but remained where he was with four hundred nomads. His two brothers returned to their homeland. Ertuğrul remained at that place for a long time. He went to summer pastures and he went to winter pastures.

“… Ertuğrul sent his son Saru Yatı to Sultan Alaüddin [of the Sultanate of Rum]. He said, “Let him direct us to a home.” Sultan Alaüddin gave them Söğüt between Karacahisar and Bilecik. He gave them Domaniç Beli and Ermeni Beli as pastures. They went there from Ankara and entered this province. After many a year from their arrival, Ertuğrul Gazi passed away.” [1]

That is about it."

Now, Quora is not a WP:RS, but this looks like a good addition to me. Does someone has access to an English translation of Aşıkpaşazade's book (or even better, a historybook that comments on Ertuğrul in it), or a Turkish one they can translate from for inclusion in the article? If there's a good source for this being "earliest source about Ertuğrul" that's excellent, if not we'll do without. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:31, 11 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Last will

Not necessarily a bad inclusion, but I'd like to know when it was written and by whom. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:35, 31 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Can't hurt to ask

Beshogur, [6] disputed, sure, but what decent sources do you have that even suggests it? An infobox is generally supposed to contain uncontroversial and cited stuff from the article. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:57, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in favor to remove it but people keep adding it, and since there are source used in article Halime Hatun, I added "disputed" to avoid the [citation needed] tag. Beshogur (talk) 10:42, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Beshogur What source in that article supports that HH was his spouse? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:55, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, found one, will add. I'm still curious when this name appeared in sources. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:05, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 09:38, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If deleted, we can go back to File:TM-2001-500manat-Ärtogrul Gazy-b.png. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:57, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth

I saw many sources where the birth date of Ertugrul Gazi is 1188,1191, 1198. I have a question why the article about Ertugrul and Halime Khatun is protected from editing.https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/ertugrul-gazi Başar, 1995; Kozan; Imber, 1987; İnalcık,Ansiklopedisi, 2007.https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%AD%D1%80%D1%82%D0%BE%D0%B3%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BB 

İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 487.
İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 489.
İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 488.
Başar, 1995; İnalcık,Ansiklopedisi, 2007.
İnalcık, Belleten, 2007, p. 486.Эртугрул Гази (talk) 15:56, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


If you have WP:Reliable sources that mentions possible birthyears, that's interesting if you can reference it (and if you found 3 different ones, "unknown" is a pretty fair description). The islamansiklopedisi doesn't mention a birthyear afaict, and Wikipedias of any language are not reliable sources. The articles have been protected from editing because of high levels of WP:Disruptive editing, for example adding stuff without a good reference, or removing well referenced stuff. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:51, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It's pretty much unknown, even Osman's birth date is shown "middle of 13th century" by Ottoman historians which lived 100 years later. Beshogur (talk) 17:02, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 5 July 2020

This information is wrong according to turkish history so would like to make changes 86.29.116.204 (talk) 10:51, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: this is not the right page to request additional user rights. You may reopen this request with the specific changes to be made and someone will add them for you, or if you have an account, you can wait until you are autoconfirmed and edit the page yourself. Rummskartoffel (talk) 11:02, 5 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Boat

IAmAtHome, on what page [7] does it say the boat was named after him? Good find, btw. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:11, 24 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Reason?

Hello Beshogur, I don't know what's reason of reverting my last edit? Ertuğrul is commonly known as Ertuğrul Gazi. I was just adding this in the topic sentence. There are plenty of sources available:[8][9][10][11].

IAmAtHome (talk) 11:41, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, it's not an "or" but a MOS:HONORIFIC. I don't really mind adding (often with the added title Gazi) to the lead, but since the body says pretty much that, I don't think it's necessary either. Then again, stuff like sir, dame, count etc are almost always in the lead of such people (it's not a perfect comparison). Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:16, 15 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Portrait of Ertuğrul

Is there an old portrait of Ertuğrul Gazi ? Or some remains from the time of Ertuğrul like turbans, coins etc ? Artist Aaqib (talk) 20:47, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Very unlikely, since there's none of Osman I. If these people sat for portraits (which may have been considered unwise in their religion), the portraits didn't make it to our time. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:42, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More about Ertuğrul bey

Yeah, i know that very little is known about Ertuğrul's life or the events happened that time. But there must be books and articles which tells everything that is known about him. Cause, I wanna know more about Ertuğrul Gazi, the Father of Osman l. Artist Aaqib (talk) 20:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Afaict, this article summarizes most of what is known about him, but you can check the references, and seek out the 15th century texts. Quora may have something you find interesting. This page (Talk:Ertuğrul) is meant for suggesting improvements to the WP-article, but you can try asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:38, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Historians and Ertuğrul's History

Are the Historians still trying to explore about Ertuğrul ? Artist Aaqib (talk) 14:59, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? Plus this is not a forum, fyi. Beshogur (talk) 15:05, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The Wife of Ertuğrul

Did she Belonged to a royal family ? Is she Halime Hatun or Halime Sultan in history ? Artist Aaqib (talk) 15:07, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Talk:Ertuğrul is meant for suggesting improvements to the WP-article, but you can try asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Humanities. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:47, 13 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1231?

Beshogur, other interested. There are some sources, [12][13], not obviously awful, that gives 1231 as birthyear. Should we use it/mention it? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:12, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: seems like 2 of them are modern, one 16 or 17th century (Historie des Turcs) Turkish one says that Sogut was given to Ertugrul in 1231. tdv ia says Ertugrul captured Karacahisar Castle in 1231. No idea perhaps that when he came into Seljuk command? Beshogur (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, maybe it's more "reign". Nevermind. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 22:28, 21 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A mosque with a well in Söğüt

I think I have found something new. Yet not looked for more sources about it. Gråbergs Gråa Sång & Beshogur: What's your opinion on this First Ottoman masjid built by Ertugrul Gazi? If looks better, add in content:Legacy. Thank You. IAmAtHome (talk) 17:59, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@IAmAtHome: of course if there's no copyright issue. Beshogur (talk) 18:02, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If I read this correctly, Taner Bilgin says that based on local legends, E had a dream and dug the well, but this is not written down anywhere. And then the E-fan Abdülhamid II "restored" it. This sounds pretty weak to me, and per WP:RSP I'm not that happy with the source (ANADOLU AGENCY). What text do you suggest adding to the article based on this source? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 18:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The age

The age of death of Ertugrul Gazi is known and needs to be added to this page he died Aged 90 AsadRehman654 (talk) 23:58, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What WP:RS do you have for that? Since this is a history-article, a history-book would be a good source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:59, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Updated picture of

Updated picture of Ertuğrul Gazi is need from Google prefer to use no copyright image thanks AsadRehman654 (talk) 00:02, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean the WP:LEADIMAGE, that one is in the public domain, so copyright is not a problem. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:01, 21 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

born Possibly c. 1191–1193 in the infobox

IronManCapUchiha Madara 17Beshogur An infobox is meant to, generally, mention "simple" cited facts from the article text. I can't read the source[14], so I ask those who can: Is this a good source from the WP-POV? What does it say about this birthdate, who says it, based on what, and how should we use this in the article? Per WP:NOENG, an English translation of the relevant text is encouraged. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:20, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I also do not understand Arabic unfortunately, although no recognisable numbers jump out to me that would confirm such a date (though I may be wrong). I guess the WP:BURDEN is on Uchiha Madara 17 to explain how these dates are supported by the source, so I would appreciate an explanation and/or translation too. – IronManCap (talk) 19:49, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, I do not understand Arabic as well. So I will remove the information pertaining to this source in the article. Uchiha Madara 17 (talk) 15:06, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Also, adding sources you can't read yourself kind of goes against the purpose of sourcing. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:08, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The source was already used to say Ertuğrul's reign started from c.1191-93, so I guess Uchiha Madara 17 inferred that was also his birth date from that. --IronManCap (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fwiw, Turkish WP doesn't have a birthdate either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:12, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a source that says "said to have been born 1181". Yeni Şafak is not a WP:RS for history, but their source might be. Whatever that was. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll add it with a {{better source needed}} tag for now. IronManCap (talk) 18:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Undone per WP:EXTRAORDINARY. You also changed "said to have been" to "actually was" in WP-voice, making WP less sceptical than the source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 20:54, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I don't actually think this is WP:EXTROADINARY, but I understand the WP:VOICE issue. I added it expecting a better source to possibly validate it later on, hence the better source tag, although that reasoning sounds a bit WP:CRYSTALy in hindsight. No objections. IronManCap (talk) 21:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk), you are most welcome, and thank you so much for letting me know. Actually, I found this source at Osman I's article (citation #23), where it mentioned Ertuğrul's death date and approximate age at the time of death, from which I inferred his approximate birth year. If it has been removed from Ertuğrul's article, it should be removed from Osman I's as well since currently we are unable to verify it. Uchiha Madara 17 (talk) 05:14, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with this as well. We should keep this for a while and see if we can find better sources. This has become a very popular and important Turkish history article after all, so adding more information is necessary. Uchiha Madara 17 (talk) 05:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is a common problem in Wikipedia articles dealing with famous historical figures about whom little is actually known. Historians simply do not know when Ertuğrul was born. Basically everything about his life is known only from sources of questionable reliability written more than a hundred years after his death. But when articles say someone's birth date or another basic piece of biographical information is "unknown", editors inevitably come along who treat it as if it's a problem to be solved, supposing that it's just Wikipedia that doesn't know this information and therefore it needs to be added to the article somehow. They then try to fill in this "missing" information with whatever sources they can find on the internet, in the process making the article *less* accurate. But Ertuğrul's birth date is just that: unknown. Any attempt to fill it in is just misguided and will be misleading to readers, who should be informed that it is actually not a known piece of information. Chamboz (talk) 05:25, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to a request by Grabergs. Very apt comments from all; I was asked to take a look at the Arabic source. Unfortunately, I can't get the wayback machine link to load; I'm just seeing a blank page. On the Arabic version of this article, for what it's worth, the claim of a 1191 birth is also there, and also with unsatisfying sources: this personal webpage and this...newspaper clipping? High school textbook page? I'm not exactly sure since, despite being a source from the Arabic version of Wikipedia, the source itself is in Turkish. MezzoMezzo (talk) 06:31, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@MezzoMezzo Thank you very much. The "OP-source" is a 600+ page pdf, it took awhile to load for me. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, your "newspaper clipping" seems to be a version of https://islamansiklopedisi.org.tr/ertugrul-gazi, which I think may actually be RS, at least partly. I don't know Turkish either, but it seems clear it doesn't have a birthyear, perhaps a mark of RS-ness. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:09, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I do know Turkish, and this is indeed the article from the Turkish version of the Encyclopedia of Islam, like you said. It is a reliable academic source, but it (correctly) does not list a birth date, and if it's being used as a citation to support a birth date, then it's being misused. Chamboz (talk) 15:54, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Ertuğrul Ghazi ( 1191-1281 ) , is strongly believed to have been born in Ahlat in 1191. He was the son of a chieftain of one of the 24 branches of the...", from publication issued by the General Directorate of Press and Information, 2001, "Ertuğrul Bey (Gazi) as well (b` 1198 (a.o.s. 1191)" [15] --Soman (talk) 20:23, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The book in your first link, archive.org version, says on page 54 "However, if the date of Ertugruls birth, given in some chronicles as 1198, is at all correct..." The quote from the second link checks out, I don't how good it is. It refers to among others islamansiklopedisi, which as we have seen does not give a YOB. It's a pity Alderson doesn't say which chronicles. Still, this could be good enough to add "given in some chronicles as 1198" to the article-text. Chamboz, opinion? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:06, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It should be noted that sources may spell Ertuğrul diffrently. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep in mind that Anderson's book is nearly 70 years old. The fundamental issue is that most modern historians are highly skeptical of the reliability of the early Ottoman chronicles because of the late dates of their composition. Everything we "know" about Ertuğrul comes from sources written more than a hundred years after his death and is highly legendary in character. This is the basic reality of the study of Ertuğrul and other very early Ottoman figures. It is possible to find sources that claim one date or another, but historians do not accept these claims: the proper answer is to say that we don't know when he was born. Even the fact that Ertuğrul was a real person to begin with was something only recently proven to satisfaction. Chamboz (talk) 23:13, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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