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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 166.62.226.25 (talk) at 03:10, 28 August 2021 (→‎Stalin era mass grave: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Point of information - Kiev has been renamed Kyiv

Now that the move request succeeded and Kyiv is the name of the main article in Wikipedia, this Odessa article is the only one of the eight listed by the Ukraine Ministry of Foreign Affairs #CorrectUA initiative that is inconsistent [1]. All of the others below:

  1. Ukraine
  2. Kyiv
  3. Lviv
  4. Odesa (redirect)
  5. Kharkiv
  6. Mykolaiv
  7. Rivne
  8. Ternopil

Just thought this was useful regarding the debate in the above sections. -- Fuzheado | Talk 13:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Given that Wikipedia now does not use the Russian transliteration of the name of the capital of Ukraine, it would be logical now to use the Ukrainian transliteration of the city and oblast Odesa. Odesa is the last city that still has Russian transliteration. -- vitaliyf261 | Talk 16:35, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Odessa is different than every other city on this list because it is more firmly entrenched as an English language place name than any of these other cities. There are eight cities in the United States named Odessa. Unlike the problematic claim that "Kiev" was a "Russian name" and not an English one, "Odessa" is an American name, fully and completely. Its origins may have been in Russian, but it is 100% English now. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No, also Chernobyl, but the Ukrainian state propaganda does not seem to be interested in this one.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:33, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming (September 2020)

I propose to rename this article to Odesa according to the Ukrainian, not Russian transliteration, which was recently done with the Ukrainian capital.— Preceding unsigned comment added by vitaliyf261 (talk • contribs)

Strong oppose, no fucking way this is a common English name.--Ymblanter (talk) 16:30, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

They were saying the same about Kyiv, but eventually pro-Russian lobby gave up. Odesa is next.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.110.102.235 (talk • contribs) 01:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You clearly don't understand that Odessa is a completely different case from Kyiv. There are no American cities named "Kiev". There are no less than eight American cities named "Odessa" along with dozens of other colleges, hills, streams, streets, businesses, etc. While "Kiev" was never deeply rooted in the English language other than the name of Ukraine's capital and a chicken dinner, "Odessa" is an entirely different matter. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 07:44, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
No idea what that has to do with this, but FYI, Kief, North Dakota was named after Kyiv in 1908, and I suppose its name is deeply rooted among North Dakotan Kiefites. Maybe you can point out some references indicating that Odessa is more deeply rooted than Kiev in the English language (what percentage of English-speakers worldwide has ever heard of Odessa, USA, but not Kyiv—is it zero point zero?), and what the article naming guidelines say about it. —Michael Z. 18:39, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I still can imagine a situation when most English sources refer to Odessa, Ukraine as Odesa and Odessa, Delaware as Odessa. However, first, we are nowhere close to this, and, second, the reason that Kiev was renamed from what Ukrainian propagandidts think was the Russian version to what they think is the Ukrainian version is not a reason to rename Odessa. The topic starter has been already, unsurprisingly, blocked for disruption.--Ymblanter (talk) 08:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ymblanter, Please don’t belittle editors as “propagandidts” (is that a typo, or are we propagand-idiots?). Every source about the name says Kiev is the Russian version, e.g., NYT: “The New York Times changed its style of spelling for the capital of Ukraine to Kyiv, reflecting the transliteration from Ukrainian, rather than Russian. The change is reflected in articles published after Nov. 18.” I know where you can find a whole list of such references, in case you are skeptical. —Michael Z. 18:39, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This was a typo indeed, thanks. No, I am sorry that NYT do not understand elementary things, but Kiev is not a Russian spelling. The Russian spelling is Киев. Russian does not use Latin alphabet, and never did. Kiev is an English spelling. It is indeed historically derived from the Russian name of the city, but nobody cared until the 2000s, when Ukraine started massive propaganda (which was part of the national building). The propaganda understandably intensified in 2014. This explanation was given here on wiki multiple times, but whoever prefers not to hear it but listen to the Ukrainian state propaganda instead, I am afraid I can not help. (For the record, since I will likely be accused again in being a Russian aggressor / Putin defender whatever, as it already happened many times before, I find actually Russian state propaganda much worse. It just works with the English Wikipedia in a completely different way).--Ymblanter (talk) 18:54, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
↑↑↑↑ [Original research][Citation needed] —Michael Z. 20:04, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As you wish.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:07, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
User:Ymblanter I am very grateful to your for not threatening to block User:Mzajac for merely stating the fact that Kiev is the Russian-[based] version, [and Kyiv is a Ukrainian-based version]: it is a very welcome evolution of your opinions on Ukraine-related topics (and Kyiv/Kiev in particular). I am also hoping that this softening of your stance is a result of a genuine shift in your world-view, and is not because User:Mzajac is a sysop and not a regular editor/IP (because from what I saw in the 15 pages of Talk:Kiev/naming archives, in 2019 and prior years other non-sysop editors were not as lucky as User:Mzajac to get such a generous response from you; i.e., if they said things like "Kiev" is the former (and now outdated) English spelling. The modern English spelling is "Kyiv." diff they would get threatened with a partial block/topic-ban.--73.75.115.5 (talk) 19:33, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is great that after being partially blocked from that page you started collecting everything I have ever said on Wikipedia (I have now 168K edits, so you have still a lot of work ahead of you). I would, however, appreciate that you (i) stop citing things out of the context (I am sure you have carefully analyzed what Roman Spinner said on that page prior to my diff, and whether he was previously sanctioned by the community, which was highly relevant to what I said then); (ii) stop making things up; (iii) stop making assumptions about my motives and views, including my political views. May I please remind you that Wikipedia:No personal attacks, which is a Wikipedia policy, starts from "Comment on content, not on the contributor". Wikipedia:Casting aspersions applies here as well. If you think I am breaking Wikipedia policies, you should go to ANI. As you have already figured out, there is even a topic on Kiev/Kyiv disruption there, or you can start a new topic.--Ymblanter (talk) 19:45, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strange. The Odessa city council still seems to think its English name is "Odessa" (e.g. Odessa tourism site). Must be infiltrated by the Russian lobby propagandists. Walrasiad (talk) 20:13, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. Your authoritative source on English spelling is the “Odessa City Counsil.” —Michael Z. 03:38, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the law mandates them to use Odesa, so this is strange indeed.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:19, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I guess when tourist dollars are at stake, recognizability matters more than grandstanding. Walrasiad (talk) 20:27, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
When Odessans themselves have chosen an English name, and we change Kiev to Kyiv because Kyivans want it that way, then we have to respect Odessans who want two esses. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 00:00, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
But, in the end, as I always argued at Talk:Kyiv, it doesn't matter a hill of beans what Ukrainians want their English names to be. It matters what English speakers use. And Odessa is spelled with two esses in English. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 09:52, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Odesa is spelled two different ways in English. Guess which one’s older. —Michael Z. 18:42, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I am not quite sure, are you going to convince us that there are sources using whatever spelling which mention the city of Odessa and were published before 1794?--Ymblanter (talk) 18:58, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
"Older" has never mattered. "More common in contemporary English" is all that matters. There's simply no comparison at this time. "Odessa" is far more common. --TaivoLinguist (Taivo) (talk) 19:34, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Missing history???

Reading through the entry, I noticed that after the Red Army takeover of Odessa there is ZERO substantive historical information until the German/Romanian invasion in 1941. Similarly, there is a near blank in surround the city's history post WWII. So much history missing. Mind, life wasn't dull as this recent article shows.

https://www.rbc.ua/rus/styler/odesse-obnaruzhili-odin-samyh-krupnyh-mogilnikov-1629640908.html

Comments?

It probably needs to be written, but the link you provide is based on a Facebook post of a propaganda outlet (which is unfortunately common for Ukrainian media who report social media content rather than perform their own investigation) and is not suitable for Wikipedia.--Ymblanter (talk) 18:19, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Media do that in many countries. No need to set an example for broadcasting anti-national prejudices on talk pages. This article and talk page are subject to WP:ACDS. —Michael Z. 22:40, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Duly noting one more personal attack from this user.--Ymblanter (talk) 05:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, it’s not personal. I draw attention to such comments before they get normalized and snowball, which we have seen happen before. If you can’t see it’s inappropriate, at least other editors can make note that such behaviour doesn’t get a free pass. —Michael Z. 13:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I will use it when I ask to extend your topic ban to the whole Ukrainian topic. AE admins will then decide whether this is personal or not, and whether it was a good idea to keep accusing me in anti-national prejudices after I have many times objected and asked you not to.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:33, 27 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Here’s another article, maybe a bit more detailed, based on the same sources. —Michael Z. 23:05, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Stalin era mass grave

A mass grave has been found in Odessa recently, should that info be part of the page since this is a big and historically-relevant one (5000 to 8000 bodies approximately)? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/8-000-more-victims-of-stalin-purges-unearthed-in-29-graves-in-odessa-southern-ukraine-0g7sm0gqs --166.62.226.25 (talk) 03:10, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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