Talk:World Trade Center controlled demolition conspiracy theories
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Popular Mechanics
Is Popular Mechanics some sort of scientific journal? I don't understand how their analysis can be used as "proof" of anything.2CrudeDudes (talk) 13:11, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
~Popular Mechanics is a very well respected publication in the field of engineering whether you agree with their analysis of the situation or not. TheMadcapSyd (talk) 02:47, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
-No it is not. It serves more like an entertainment magazine, replete with predictions of what we will be driving in the future like hovercars and such. On one hand, the article talks about peer-reviewed scientific journals and the next it is citing Popular Mechanics....
67.71.58.61 (talk) 18:31, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
- It's actually a little of both. ----DanTD (talk) 03:33, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Popular Mechanics has a lot of stories leading you to believe in UFO's, unfortunately, I can't say that in the article because it would be WP:OR, original research, and I can't find an "reliable source" (WP:RS) article debunking Popular Mechanics for the tabloid journalism that it is. Raquel Baranow (talk) 18:14, 14 January 2016 (UTC)
- It's pretty much the only journal that bothered to go to the trouble of authoritatively debunking the obvious nonsense peddled by Truthers. Guy (Help!) 18:01, 15 January 2016 (UTC)
I am most decidedly not in the conspiracy camp, but it seems ridiculous to use Popular Mechanics as a credible source. Nicmart (talk) 04:15, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
- "authoritatively debunking" is not possible when you're not an authority. It's a ridiculous ref to use here, a DIY tool and entertainment mag. I agree with Nicmart and Raquel.
The Term "Conspiracy Theory"
Total waste of time and bandwidth by someone who can't assume good faith or comprehend the idea of "mainstream" because that's not what they're here to do |
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I want to point out that this is a theory, not a conspiracy theory. Truth be told, the accepted narrative about what happened on 9/11 is a conspiracy theory. It proposes that a conspiracy of foreign nationals flew planes into buildings and so forth. It is a conspiracy theory that happens to be true. On the other hand, the theory about controlled demolitions isn't necessarily a conspiracy theory. It is a theory about how the buildings may have come down that is different from the accepted narrative. Who may have planted the bombs / thermite / whatever there is not determined by the theory. One might say the government, or one might say it was Al Qaida. But terming this theory a "conspiracy theory" is a way to discredit it from the get go. For the record, I do not believe the theory of controlled demolitions. But slanting the theory as merely a conspiracy theory, in the negative sense, does us no favors. This is a structural problem with the article itself. A fairer article would term it a theory, and explore along the way how some people dismiss it as a conspiracy theory in the negative sense. 202.62.73.138 (talk) 09:03, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
It is worth noting the obvious conflict of interest in the NIST report, and that their models were kept secret in spite of Freedom of Information Act requests. NIST's work has not been peer reviewed. Popular Mechanics bases the entire article on the NIST report. To suggest that these two organizations independently examined the evidence is misleading. It does not imply in any way that the scientific community generally accepts the standard explanation. This article should acknowledge that the scientific community has not reached consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.181.15 (talk) 07:39, 4 December 2016 (UTC) It makes little sense to claim the CD theory is generally accepted to be wrong solely on the basis of people who would have a conflict or interest in claiming otherwise. This article does not make a compelling case for the existence of a large number of scientists who independently reject the CD theory. NIST report has caused controversy among physicists and engineers. NIST has acknowledged that it is unable to explain the free fall in the collapse of WTC 7. The P M article and other articles that reject CD theories carefully ignore this piece of evidence which in itself makes a very strong case for CD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.61.181.15 (talk) 07:49, 4 December 2016 (UTC) The title of this article is absurd and absolutely non factual. One thing is "controlled demolition theory" - the theory that claims (wrongly or not) that the buildings went down by a controlled demolition. another thing is: "controlled demolition conspiracy theory" - the theory that claims (wrongly or not) that the buildings went down by a controlled demolition in the context of a certain conspiracy. As far as i know, the controlled demolition theorists that stick to the technical and factual analysis of the 9/11 don't analyze the "conspiracy context", they only analyze if the buildings went down by plane, controlled demolition, or whatever other technical cause. They don't analyze the facts of why, who, and when conspired to bring the buildings down. The conspiracy subject is not the subject of many controlled demolition theorists. So the article title is highly innacurate and it doesn't reflect its content that only analyzes and describes the theory that claims (wrongly or not) that the buildings went down by a controlled demolition. Simple logic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.49.178.239 (talk) 23:04, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Every event in the course of human interaction involves conspiracy. To label something as a "conspiracy theory" is to suggest that is a fringe theory, far from proven, and probably not true. This is not the case with the demolition of the world trade center. It simply *is* a demolition. I would consider that scientific mainstream. I find it very strange the Wikipedia does not report accurately on this. There are two possibilities: they are willfully complicit in the cover-up - or they are unable to suspend trust in authority long enough to see that this was plainly a controlled demolition. At least they should knowledge the magnitude of the group of scientists pushing for truth. These are not people who normally dabble in conspiracy theory or revisionist history. The fact that so many respectable scientists are convinced that this as a demolition deserves attention. "Reality takes precedence over public relations for nature cannot be fooled" -- Richard Feynman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 07:29, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Ian.thomson - your refusal to look at the evidence instead of tossing around insults suggests you are part of the cover-up. I mean it's pretty simple stuff - a building cannot crush itself at free fall acceleration. Free fall implies 0 resistance. I have yet to hear anyone explain how that can happen without explosives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 07:52, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
Sure. But at the end of the day there is no ministry of truth and the individual is forced to evaluate source based on hi/her own intuition. How do we know the NYT is reliable? Because it says so in the NYT of course! I am hoping to appeal to common intuition that the WTC was brought down by demolition. That is in fact very easy to see if you just watch the video. Having convinced yourself that it was a demolition you will realize that the msm is not free. If it were, it would have reported this fact already. So the least wikipedia could do is admit that this is not a settled issue. That there is a huge number of respectable scientists speaking out against the government. That the government does not always tell the truth - that the msm is not independent. As it is, wikipedia is just part of the propaganda machine on this issue. They make it seem as tho this is a settled issue. And citing popular mechanics is so weak - that's not a peer reviewed journal. The case against cd theories revolves around one engineer - Bazant. There are many more engineers who support controlled demo theories— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk • contribs)
Your confounding several different theories. There are thousands of architects, engineers, and scientists who support the controlled demolition theory. These are not the same people who study reptilians etc. You are trying to taint the truth movement by associating it with other conspiracies and ignoring the fact that it is rooted in hard science — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 09:04, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
This is clear evidence that the engineering community does not generally accept the standard collapse theory. Regardless of the interviewer, these scientists and engineers have credentials. What makes A&E911 Truth an unreliable source? Wikipedia cites a paper by a single engineer Bazant as proof of its claim? what makes him a reliable source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:11, 23 February 2017 (UTC) How is Lynn Margulis, recipient of the National Medal of Science, not worth anything? Why is Popular Mechanics more reliable than Europhysucs News? I would like to see an equivalent number of engineers/scientists outside of the government who can defend the official collapse theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:19, 23 February 2017 (UTC) The Washington Journal is not a reliable source? Wikipedia is not a reliable source? Did you even look at all these links? Who decides what is a reliable source? I thought the whole point of Wikipedia was to transcend the bias of mainstream sources. There is a large number of engineers/scientists who disagree with NIST's findings. This article should reflect that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:27, 23 February 2017 (UTC) I understand it is not WIkipedia's job to determine the truth of this theory. But they should accurately represent the nature of the movement. These sources confirm that a large number of scientists and engineers believe the CD theory. Whether or not they are correct, wikipedia should cover AE4 9 9 11 truth, Scentists for 9 11 truth. They aren't even mentioned here. You make it sound like Jones is the only one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 19:47, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
The fact that you tried to hide the links I provided when they are not that different to links already cited in this article suggest a conscious effort to hide the truth on this subject. I repeat "The structural engineering community rejects the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory. Its consensus is that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was a fire-induced, gravity-driven collapse, an explanation that does not involve the use of explosives." IS FALSE. "Consensus" implies that (almost) everyone agrees. And yet there are thousands of dissenters, some of them quite outspoken. This article deliberately downplays and covers up this fact. Bazant seems to be just about the only non-government engineer who is willing to defend the official theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 04:34, 24 February 2017 (UTC) You have non-mainstream sources already cited all over this article. You have a C-span interview with David Ray Griffin. You said the C-span interview with Richard Gage is not reliable. You have the Daily Mail as a source and you declared the Daily Express to be unreliable. I want an answer to this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 04:50, 24 February 2017 (UTC) And I want a real citation for "The structural engineering community rejects the controlled-demolition conspiracy theory. Its consensus is that the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings was a fire-induced, gravity-driven collapse, an explanation that does not involve the use of explosives" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 04:54, 24 February 2017 (UTC) I just notice that Architects and Engineers for 9 11 Truth is already listed as a source for this article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:01, 24 February 2017 (UTC) This article claims the engineering community has reached consensus in agreement with NIST. It does not provide a source for this or acknowledge the scale of the dissenting group of engineers and scientists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:11, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Please provide sources for those statements. The links provided don't lead anywhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:26, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
Also the dissenting engineers are not "Conspiracy Theorists." They are professional engineers who have never before researched "conspiracy theories." And they are far more numerous than the engineers who defend the government theory. Neither group speaks for the majority of engineers. The majority of engineers are silent on this issue. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:30, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
How exactly do distinguish a "mainstream" engineer from a non-mainstream one? lol. You have not provided sources for the ASCE, ISE claims. There is almost no literature in peer reviewed journals defending the official collapse theory. Bazant and one or two others. I sent links to at least 5 - 10 professionals who support CD theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:46, 24 February 2017 (UTC) The dissenting petition has thousands of signatures from professional architects and engineers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:50, 24 February 2017 (UTC) You have not provided sources for the ASCE claim. Thus your entire proof of the engineering "consensus" rests on Bazant and Eagar. Yet there are thousands of engineers who disagree. How can you claim there is a consensus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 05:54, 24 February 2017 (UTC) Perhaps a video of the collapse of Building 7 should appear somewhere in this article - just to give an intuitive motivation for the theory |
More waste of time and bandwidth by someone who can't comprehend the idea of "mainstream" because that's not what they're here to do |
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Relying on Bazant"Allegations of controlled demolition have been found to be devoid of scientific merit by mainstream engineering scholarship." The only sources for this claim are the same papers by Bazant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 07:25, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
FundingAs far as I know, Wikipedia is not government funded, and therefore should have no incentive to cover up the truth about the WTC collapse. If we were do divide all the engineers into 3 categories: 1) those who support the CD theory 2) those who support the fire-induced collapse theory 3) those who don't voice an opinion - then most engineers would fall in category 3. Several thousand would fall in category 1. In category 2 we have the NIST engineers and a few others. In the controversy over whether the government is lying about 9 11, NIST's testimony is not worth anything because they are hired by the government. So it comes down to Bazant and Eagar, and maybe a few others in category 2. There are very few examples of non-government engineers defending the fire induced collapse theory. There are many examples of engineers defending the CD theory. Wikipedia distorts the situation, making it look like the CD theory is a fringe theory in the engineering community. Anyone with two eyes can see that this was a controlled demolition. It is easy to see why the NYT and Washington Post would be afraid to report on this. But Wikipedia is based on user donations. What is holding them back? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.188.115.27 (talk) 07:55, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
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Open Chemical Physics Journal
Block evading waste of time and bandwidth |
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What does the line "The paper contained no scientific rebuttal" mean? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 06:33, 12 March 2017 (UTC) If no one knows what it means, I am going to remove it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 06:30, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
You did not have to remove my edit. I could have easily found a source http://www.alaskapublic.org/2016/06/27/uaf-researcher-looks-at-causes-of-the-911-world-trade-center-attack/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs)
I don't understand. The University of Alaska is not a conspiracy group. This has been confirmed by many news sources. How about the Daily Express? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 07:19, 14 March 2017 (UTC) It's also on the University Website http://ine.uaf.edu/werc/seminars/seminars/2016-2017/2016-10-7/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 07:22, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Yes they are funded by AE911. The statement of the fact that the university is conducting the study is what we're trying to source. Not the credibility of the study. Shouldn't the University's website be sufficient to verify a statement about themselves? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 07:36, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
About the Neils Harrit paper - I'm not an expert on this, but as far as I know, that paper is undisputed in peer-reviewed scientific literature. This is a highly charged political issue which is probably why people refer to it as a "conspiracy theory." But generally mainstream news is not an authority on pure science. So although it may appear as a fringe theory in a sociology-political sense, it is somewhat mainstream in peer-reviewed scientific literature. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 07:48, 14 March 2017 (UTC) The problem with this article, is that it confounds the science with the political implications. If you consider the science separate, it is not a conspiracy theory and not a fringe theory. Most of the scientists and engineers who support this theory are not conspiracy theorists by trade. Many of them specifically state that they do not speculate on the conspiratorial implications of the demolition theory.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs)
I would say the moon landing hoax is a fringe theory. There are no scientific peer reviewed papers on that subject. To put WTC demolition in the same category is somewhat misleading - there are many peer-reviewed scientific papers on the subject. Just a few here https://911inacademia.com/journal-papers/ Until you find a good source, I would suggest removing "Allegations of controlled demolition have been found to be devoid of scientific merit by mainstream engineering scholarship." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 08:07, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
Lol the "waist of bandwidth" guy? I'm not saying the kind of stuff he was saying. I've had this account. You don't have to take the group's word for it. Go to the journals themselves. Bazant doesn't represent mainstream academia either, and his paper has been shown to be fraudulent. Not saying the theory is true or false, but it is certainly not fringe in the scientific literature. This article paints it as a fringe theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adrionwells (talk • contribs) 08:20, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
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Stop trying to push the official story
Conspiracy promotion-only account blocked |
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You've already shoved it down everyone's throats in the 'September 11 attacks' article. In this article you're supposed to solely write about the arguments of the 'conspiracy theories'. I put those apostrophes there because a lot of you still haven't figured out that the official story is by definition a conspiracy theory, so everyone who believes the official story is a conspiracy theorist too. You have absolutely no reason to start debunking (or attempting to, because most of the statements in this article are completely false) the theories, the only thing you need to do is provide the statements and give the evidence behind those statements. Let the reader come to their own conclusions. I don't think I'm the only one who thinks this article is utterly biased towards the official narrative. I've said it already but I'll say it again, it's articles like these that make Wikipedia an untrustworthy source. Also, can you back off on the apathy towards the people who think it was an inside job? SpreaderOfTruth (talk) 17:23, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
@Ian.thomson: Oh so I'm not allowed to correct statements and voice my opinions Ian? SpreaderOfTruth (talk) 17:30, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
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The late Danny Jowenko's expert conclusions should be quoted in the WTC7 section
http://www1.ae911truth.org/home/550-jowenko.html He wasn't wishy-washy at all what his training and extensive experience led him to conclude from watching videos of the collapse, and the videos made of the interviews with him are available online. 98.118.22.14 (talk) 19:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
AE911 Truth is not a WP:RS (and we've gone over this a million times), but rather a WP:FRINGE source that tries to inflate the credentials of people to make it sound like their position is mainstream. If Danny Jowenko wants to be taken seriously he should publish his work in a proper scientific journal. Harizotoh9 (talk) 22:43, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- He's dead, Jim. Acroterion (talk) 23:44, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
- More specifically, if the late Mr. Jowenko's comments have received substantial coverage in major mainstream journalism and scholarship, they might be appropriate for inclusion as a prominent conspiracy theory proponent. However, such coverage should only be in proportion to coverage in mainstream discussions, and cannot be a platform for promotion of conspiracy theories. Acroterion (talk) 00:43, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
If all sources have to be "mainstream", then maybe you should define and list mainstream sources.
2601:181:8301:4510:7959:9701:7D39:F2B7 (talk) 05:14, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- See WP:RS. Acroterion (talk) 09:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- This is an oxymoron (please see the definition of that word in the event you attempt to claim it's an attack or insult). Just how can a 9/11 conspiracy theory ever be classed as 'mainstream' as if that ever happened, they would no longer be written off as 'conspiracy theories'. They simply cannot be two things Apeholder (talk) 00:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
- No, this is how Wikipedia works. We rely on reliable sources, not one-off hypotheses that fail scrutiny.
- No one takes AE911 seriously, because their conjectures have been soundly rebutted in mainstream scientific publications. We are not asking for "mainstream" conspiracy theories because, by their very nature, they are not mainstream opinions. We want what reliable sources say about the conspiracy theories.
- Also, you're replying to a thread that's been dead since May. — The Hand That Feeds You:Bite 20:17, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
- This is an oxymoron (please see the definition of that word in the event you attempt to claim it's an attack or insult). Just how can a 9/11 conspiracy theory ever be classed as 'mainstream' as if that ever happened, they would no longer be written off as 'conspiracy theories'. They simply cannot be two things Apeholder (talk) 00:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Error/false statement re seismic info
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Seismic
A sentence is incorrect and needs reediting: In the section "Proposals...", the sentence now reads, "There are many noises...seismic..." Additional seismic analyses from 2010 and 2012 render the statement false.
It needs correcting and reediting to read as :
Seismic signals
Seismic signals on 11 September 2001 were collected from the Columbia University's Palisades station, the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory (LDEO), whose data and report[1] was used by FEMA and NIST in their reports. The 9/11 Commission Report also used LDEOs report, but replaced LDEOs seismic event timestamps with timestamps from National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) ground radars tracking the planes that impacted WTC1 and WTC2, but not WTC7.
The LDEO station is 34 km (approximately 11 miles) from WTC, and additional seismic signals were registered in neighboring states. By 2006, Craig Furlong, Ross Gordon and J. Hoffman were reexamining the seismic event information, as did Graeme MacQueen in 2006 and again in 2009.
In 2010, French geologist and geophysicist Dr André Rousseau of the National Center of Scientific Research (Centre national des recherches scientifiques, CNRS), whose speciality is acoustic wave signals, reanalysed the raw seismic data from LDEO.[2] He found major descrepancies in the timing of the seismic signals, as compared to the timing of the impacts of the planes; in the different magnitudes of signals for the identical twin towers; and in the wave frequencies of the signals, which do not correspond to plane impacts nor to falling debris from buildings.
Rousseau's seismic analysis, which states LDEOs claims as to the causes of the seismic events are "geophysically impossible", was republished in 2012 and entitled, "Were Explosives the Source of the Seismic Signals Emitted from New York on September 11, 2001?".[3] His conclusions in the seismic signal events also correspond to four testimonials compiled by the New York Fire Department,[4] which are eyewitness accounts of apparent controlled demolitions, and which Rousseau states are confirmed:
Finally, controlled demolition of the three towers, suggested by the visual and audio witness testimony as well as by observations of video recordings of their collapses, is thus confirmed and demonstrated by analysis of the seismic waves emitted near the time of the plane impacts and at the moments of the collapses.
It's reported that Rousseau's seismic signal analyses from 2010 and 2012 have not been refuted in academic journals as of 11 September 2021. 93.23.198.36 (talk) 03:29, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
References
- ^ Kim W.Y., Sykes L.R., Armitage J.H., Xie J.K., Jacob K.H., Richards P.G., West M., Waldhauser F., Armbruster J., Seeber L., Du W.X. and Lerner-Lam A. 2001. "Seismic Waves Generated by Aircraft Impacts and Building Collapses at World Trade Center, New York City," EOS, Transactions American Geophysical Union, Vol. 82, No. 47: 565, 570-571, 20 November 2001.
- ^ André Rousseau (18 février 2010)."Des signaux sismiques révèlent l’utilisation d’explosifs au WTC le 11/9, selon le géophysicien André Rousseau", Agoravox, 12 mars 2010.
- ^ André Rousseau, 2012. "Were Explosives the Source of the Seismic Signals Emitted from New York on September 11, 2001?" Edited by Tod Fletcher. Journal of 9/11 Studies, Vol 34:1-23.
- ^ "Oral Histories from Sept 11". Compiled by the New York Fire Department. New York Times, 12 August 2005.
- Nor have they been endorsed, or received significant notice over the past ten years, probably because they were published in a fringe journal dedicated to publishing material that supports conspriacy theories. Acroterion (talk) 03:35, 12 September 2021 (UTC)
- With the subject being 9/11, which has rendered changes to modern life as we know/knew it, it seems more likely that no self respecting geo scientist could disagree with Rousseau's analyses. Glad to see it's an accepted change, and including the information is a good editorial decision.
- Also, the NYFD's testimonies include those from EMT personnel and cops. Those that loosely toss around the term "fringe/conspiracy theory" would likely be shocked to know this fact.
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