Talk:Armenia

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kingdom of Armenia

The Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) is missing on the info box in the establishment section 331 BC

Geography of Armenia

@Archives908: I’m gonna ping you because I saw in the archives that you created the current consensus. That conversation was very messy and was full of personal opinions and original research and not an objective analysis of sources. It seems that the conversation was cut short without a real consensus to save time and omits important information. The fact is that Armenia is occasionally considered part of the middle east. The other conversation was mistaken into thinking that the terms Middle East and Europe are mutually exclusive which is not the case at all. As the CIA World Factbook aptly puts it, Armenia can be considered to be geopolitically European, Middle Eastern, or both. Many reliable sources/definitions place Armenia in the middle east, I see no valid argument to omit the fact that Armenia is occasionally considered to be part of the middle east. “Is Armenia in the Middle East?” is one of the top google questions about Armenia and this article right now is taking a position that an Encyclopedia shouldn’t be taking, Encyclopedias present all major viewpoints, it’s not our job as editors to let our own personal beliefs decide which viewpoint gets included if there is significant scholarship supporting multiple viewpoints. This doesn’t have to be a drawn out discussion, my consensus is to mention that Armenia can be considered European, Middle Eastern or Both while also leaving the part that Armenia generally aligns more with Europe.

This is my proposed consensus:

Occasionally, Armenia is considered part of the Middle East due to historical and cultural ties to the region. Geopolitically, Armenia can be considered European, Middle Eastern, or both. Since Armenia aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations…

With this note (Note: The Middle East has no set boundaries and is defined by multiple definitions. The South Caucasus, where Armenia is located, is occasionally considered to be the northern extent or an extension of the Middle East due to its close cultural and historical ties to the region. The CIA World Factbook as well as multiple scholarly publications place the Republic of Armenia in the Middle East. Other definitions exclude Armenia or nclude it rather in the Greater Middle East due to its geopolitical alignment.}}) I believe this is more than fair, not purposefully omitting viewpoints that have significant scholarship behind them for personal political reasons. I see absolutely no reason that some mention of this classification shouldn’t be included in this article, it’s only serves to confuse readers more and takes a stance on a debated issue which is not what Wikipedia is for.TagaworShah (talk) 02:13, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Please, let's try to avoid relying on WP:POV and personally attacking the contributions of other editors from the get go- it is not constructive nor appreciated. Now to the discussion- I hope you took the time to read the entire consensus in full. If you did, you would see that the consensus was not in fact solely reached by myself, as you so erroneously claim. If that were the case, it would not be called a consensus. The ensuing and riveting discussions held on talk pages sometimes do get "messy"- that's the point. The primary topic of that discussion was centered around Armenia's geopolitical alignment towards Europe. It had nothing to do with geography. Armenia is located in the South Caucasus region of West Asia. This is undisputed. Armenia's geopolitical alignment with Europe, on the other hand, had been omitted from the article and it was agreed that 1-2 sentences would be included highlighting the country's indisputable connections with/to Europe. Again- not changing anything about Armenia's geographic location. The first area of concern- rather then addressing the talk page, you decided (unilaterally) to alter the established consensus and add a new geographical component to this section (which, typically speaking, should not include additional geographical information). The 4th paragraph in most country articles is reserved for economic/geopolitical/international relations information. The existing wording of the paragraph, follows that rule by focusing strictly on geopolitics- not geography. The second area of concern- your arguments that Armenia is generally included in the definitions of the Middle East is incorrect. The South Caucasus is in fact a distinct region of West Asia. Most scholars and academics would agree with this. Britannica, arguably one of the most reliable heavyweight sources, does not mention the Middle East at all for Armenia. It clearly states that Armenia is in the Caucasus/ Transcaucasia region. Even Transcaucasia isn't listed as part of the Middle East according to Britannica. Rather, they label the entire region as a unique region of Eurasia. The BBC, one of the most reliable international news agencies, likewise mentions nothing of the Middle East in relation to Armenia. Furthermore, Armenia is not listed as one of the countries of the Middle East proper (on the very article about the Middle East), so to include that here is slightly baffling. No mention of the Middle East at Caucasus either. Hmm I wonder why? The United Nations geoscheme for Asia correctly categorizes the region as "West Asia", not "Middle East", the UN has also placed Armenia within the Eastern European Group. While the Government of Armenia makes zero claims that they are part of the Middle East. As for the concept of "Greater Middle East", it is extremely vague, arbitrary, loosely defined, not backed up by enough scholarly work, and definitely not notable enough to categorically state "Armenia is a part of the Greater Middle East". It is for those reasons that the existing consensus should be maintained. I also must point out that your arguments presented above are eerily identical to QeeGeeBee's persistent determination to include Armenia in the "Greater Middle East". In fact, you both have identical arguments when comparing both talk page discussions. Looks like QeeGeeBee stopped editing on 21 February 2021, while your account became active a day later on 22 February 2021. Hmm, coincidence? Archives908 (talk) 04:08, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@Archives908: Woah Woah Woah, what is with the hostility? Accusing an editor you have literally never interacted with of sock puppetry, especially when my edits, command of the english language, and interests are so vastly different from that user?? Accusing editors of bad faith or sock puppetry from the get go is neither constructive nor appreciated and it’s not considered civil under Wikipedia guidelines. Talk pages discussions while riveting and extensive should remain civil. Now I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I didn’t accuse any editor of POV editing at all, I simply stated the wikipedia guidelines in critique to an edit which I am perfectly within my right to do, that’s what the talk page is for. I know how a consensus works, I simply stated you were the one who wrote it. Also Geography includes the discipline of geopolitics, it’s in the name, I was specifically talking about geopolitics as my edits make clear, I’m well aware Armenia is geographically in Western Asia, thats not disputed and has nothing to do with this conversation. While Armenia’s physical geography isn’t disputed, Armenia’s geopolitical alignment is, and therefore each significant viewpoint should be given its due weight according to Wikipedia guidelines. I never once claimed that Armenia is “generally” considered part of the Middle east, it’s not, it’s occasionally included in the Middle East by certain definitions, that’s a fact and multiple reliable sources state that. Certain sources not mentioning Armenia as part of the Middle East is not a valid argument for not including that viewpoint when other reliable sources clearly do, again with proper due weight. The Middle East article does mention the South Caucasus as being occasionally grouped with the Middle East, it’s in the body of the article. There is simply no valid argument as to why the viewpoint that Armenia belongs to the Middle East should be omitted, it’s a significant(not dominant but still significant) viewpoint and there are milt reliable sources backing it, unless you can disprove the reliability of the sources, it should be included with its due weight. I still don’t understand why we can’t just say “Armenia can be considered geopolitically European, Middle Eastern, or both” that’s the most proper comprise that includes all the significant viewpoints in order of their weight while not changing any other part of the article. Regardless, there needs to be mention that Armenia is occasionally considered part of the Middle East, that doesn’t cancel out its geopolitical alignment with Europe, the terms are not mutually exclusive, it’s still a significant viewpoint and as an Encyclopedia, Wiki should not be omitting these viewpoints. I have yet to see a single valid argument on why this significant and well sourced viewpoint should be omitted.TagaworShah (talk) 05:56, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Let's rewind. You were the one starting off the conversation on a hostile note, and practically belittling and undermining the previously established consensus. I did not call you a sockmaster/puppet at all....I simply called a spade a spade. Your account did become active 24hrs after QeeGeeBee's became inactive. And your argument is identical to QeeGeeBee's near obsession's to include Armenia in the "Greater Middle East". Have I got anything wrong here? Illuminate me. The consensus at hand took time to establish and its focus was to highlight Armenia's predominate geopolitical connection with/to Europe. New content should not take away from that. There is an entire article to include additional information about Armenia's geopolitical "connections" with the Middle East. But to add it to the lede is ludacris. Even you admitted that Armenia is only "occasionally considered part of the Middle East". So, why would any editor add that to the lede (especially for a lede that is already cluttered). It is not notable enough to be placed in the lede, even by your own admission. Furthermore, to put that in the lede, creates the false assumption that Armenia's geopolitical alignment with Europe is equal/on par with its alignment with the Middle East. It's not. Armenia does not have any major political integration pacts/alliances/treaties with its Mid East neighbors, and does not even have full diplomatic relations with the entire region. Armenia has on the other hand, signed dozens among dozens of treaties (in various sectors from sport, culture, education, travel, airfare, health, etc...) with its European partners, is a full member of dozens of European integration organizations like the Eastern Partnership and the Euronest Parliamentary Assembly, and has active political association agreements with the EU (such as the Armenia-EU Comprehensive and Enhanced Partnership Agreement). Let's not forget, Armenia is a full member of the Council of Europe, which itself stipulates that a member must be "European" to accede. Not to mention that there are several Armenian political parties which advocate for closer ties with Europe/EU, not a single party advocates for "Middle Eastern" integration. The point is, Armenia does not have the same level and depth of geopolitical integration with the Middle East as it does with Europe in the 21st Century. You have neglected to justify that crucial point. You have not proved that Armenia maintains an equal level of geopolitical association/alignment with the Middle East as it currently does with Europe. Therefore, your suggestion is quite misleading to the reader and is not an improvement to the lede. You have also failed to provide any legitimate source(s) showing that Armenia itself considers it to be part of the "Middle East". I would think that would be important to back up your bold claims. In terms of the Middle East article, like I already said, the countries are not listed as countries of the Middle East. There is one sentence stating they are "sometimes associated". That just goes to show that this addition is pretty insignificant, even on the Middle East article, and is certainly not lede worthy material here. I remain unconvinced that your recommendation will drastically benefit the lede. Archives908 (talk) 14:36, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@Archives908:That is the whole point of talk pages is to critique the edits of other editors, I never said anything about any specific editor, just the edits which is completely within my right and not hostile at all, it’s important to not take critiques to your edits personally. Since you are always looking for ways to improve as an editor, I suggest reading this conduct policy titled Wikipedia:Don't call a spade a spade; assigning false labels to other editors in order to prevent valid discussion and review is considered uncivil and is frankly embarrassing when you’re wrong, such as in this case (me and that editor don’t resemble each other in style whatsoever, you indirectly accused me of sock puppetry for no apparent reason other than to prevent discussion, also, I would never hastily end a discussion like that without proper consideration of my viewpoint). On to the topic at hand, again you are coming from the false pretenses that Europe and the Middle East are mutually exclusive terms and that being part of one somehow negates the other, this is very far from the truth. It is entirely possible to be seen geopolitically as both European and Middle Eastern, take Turkey for example. Saying Armenia is occasionally considered as being part of the Middle East, in no way takes away from that, I suggest familiarizing yourself with the term. Armenia being part of the middle east is significant according to Wikipedia guidelines since there is significant scholarship for that matter, saying the lede is “too cluttered” for a sentence is a very poor argument. Every significant viewpoint needs to be given it’s due weight, I provided reliable sources, unless you can prove that these sources don’t merit inclusion for some reason than they should be included. Completely omitting a significant viewpoint is a flaw of this article and clarifying Armenia’s complex geopolitical position is important. It is far too oversimplified now, even for a lede. Also Armenia doesn’t need to explicitly say “We are Middle Eastern” to act geopolitically as part of the region or to have cultural and historical ties to the region, cultural and historical ties are included in this discussion per my first source. Armenia borders and has very close ties to Iran, especially now, and is also an observer state in the Arab League. I don’t have time right now to provide a full geopolitical analysis of Armenia’s situation but the fact that many countries and definitions, notably the United States, consider Armenia to be geopolitically part of the Middle East is significant and should be included especially when it is one of the most googled questions about Armenia. Also the Wikipedia article on the Middle east needs a lot of work, that’s not a valid argument either, let’s stick to actual sources for now.TagaworShah (talk) 15:39, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring all of my counter arguments, while repeating yours. A tactic I encountered while discussing with QeeGeeBee. That won't work with me. I will recommend you to re-read my paragraph above, carefully. Armenia is not part of the Middle East proper. As per Britannica, Armenia belongs to the Caucasus region of West Asia, a distinct region separate from the Middle East. Zero mention of Armenia's association or alignment with the Middle East. I will continue to default to Britannica, not your outdated sources from 22 years ago. Gayane Novikova does not provide sources for much of her analysis or bold claims. "Armenians consider themselves linking the Middle East with Europe", where did she get that? Where are the sources/polls/statistics used? It is not a WP:RS. Karen Culcasi's article from 11 years ago is extremely broad and vague, you need to specifically cite the exact reference/page where it says "Armenia is categorically party of the Greater Middle East". As for the work of Michael B. Bishku, I have actually read his work and if you read it carefully, he actually supports my position more then yours. He points out that the Caucasus region is in fact on the very margin of a very loosely defined "Middle East". Nothing solid to be found there. Meanwhile, Adam Garfinkle's work from 22 years ago says 1 line of the Cacausus belonging in the Greater Middle East and actually says nothing about Armenia. Have you even read your sources? They certainly do not reinforce much validity to your claims. I have done extensive research to try and find anything that systematically proves myself wrong, but I can't find any recent publication(s) that talk about Armenia's firm position within the "Greater Middle East". I have addressed your points and your sources directly, while you continue to ignore my arguments. We cannot, in WP:GF, say that Armenia is as much of Europe as it is the Middle East, geopolitically. I am fully aware that the terms need not be mutually exclusive. If Armenia had its "foot in both doors", I would say you're right- we should add it to the lede. But that isn't the case here. I have provided recent and reliable sources affirming that the Caucasus is a distinct region, that Armenia does affiliate itself more with Europe geopolitically then with the Middle East, and have highlighted those connections above. You bring up the topic of the Arab League, which interestingly enough so did QeeGeeBee. Another coincidence? You should know that Armenia is not an active member of the Arab League, they were invited to participate in 1 meeting back in 2004. Yet, you have the audacity to say that because of that, Armenia should belong to the "Greater Middle East", while ignoring 100% of the geopolitical links with Europe I cited above. As for Iran, just because a country maintains good relations with one of its neighbors, that does not justify it belonging to the Middle East. You have provided nothing substantial to change my mind and certainly nothing which would warrant altering the lede or the previously established consensus. Armenia has a plethora of geopolitical connections with Europe as of 2021, we cannot say the same about the Middle East. Therefore, your suggestion is not notable enough to be included in the lede. Feel free to change my mind- I for one appreciate a good debate! Archives908 (talk) 17:04, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

For the record, Britannica is not a reliable source.[1] - LouisAragon (talk) 20:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

It also states that Britannica is "useful for basic and uncontroversial facts". Armenia being located in West Asia is a basic and uncontroversial fact, if I'm not mistaken. Also, I'd prefer a wiki policy rather then someone's random talk page from 2017. Thanks though... Archives908 (talk) 21:37, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

@Archives908: Lets leave the indirect sock puppetry accusations behind, it doesn’t reflect good on your part and doesn’t benefit this discussion at all, it’s common sense that editors on the same side of a debate will have the same viewpoint, nevertheless, me and that editor have completely different editing styles, commands of English, and focuses. I am not ignoring your arguments, I am just saying they don’t contradict mine, the middle east has many definitions, Armenia is included in some of those definitions, that’s not controversial that’s just how it is. Brittany a can be very helpful as a source but what I have learned from an Administrator in the Flamenco talk discussion is that Britannica, as a tertiary source, is often too vague and broad to solve disputes of this matter, it not being included in Brittanica does not mean it shouldn’t be included here, secondary sources or more specialized tertiary sources are preferred. Also as I said before due to time constraints I can’t provide you a full geopolitical analysis of Armenia, I was just giving some examples there are plenty more where that came from. But you know who can? The Central Intelligence Agency of the United States, Geopolitics is one of their main focuses, the CIA clearly states that Armenia can be considered geopolitically middle eastern. I’m ignoring your points on how Armenia is geopolitically European because that’s not what i’m arguing against, nobody is saying to exclude that, just to add Middle East as a significant viewpoint which also does not contradict European since it’s entirely possible to be both. IMO the CIA is more than enough proof of significance and inclusion in the article but I will still provide some other sources for a more comprehensive debate. Also you don’t have to say Armenia is as Middle Eastern as European, that is a very poor way of approaching this debate, they are not mutually exclusive and we will give each viewpoint it’s due weight, nowhere in my edits did I suggest that it carries more weight than it being European, however, it’s still very significant and deserves inclusion. Karen Culcasi specifically mentions that certain definitions include Armenia in the Middle East, I provided a quote for you if you check the ref. 21 years is certainly not outdated for the purpose of this article, if it were medical information etc. maybe but something like this definitely still relevant. Novikova’s work is published in a peer reviewed journal from a well regarded academic press, it’s definitely reliable, she doesn’t need to cite sources because it comes directly from her own research, that’s how research works, the page probably excluded the means of which she gathered the research to make it more brief and easy to read, it’s most likely in the journal if you can access that. Bishku clearly states that the Caucasus is the northern extent of the middle east, which even I recognize is loosely defined, I don’t see how that supports your point to completely omit the occasional classification of Armenia in the middle east. In scholarly studies, Armenia is also occasionally included within the geopolitical term of “Middle East” as well[2] [3] [4] These are 3 very reliable studies that include Armenia within the Middle East, I would love to go more in depth on them but unfortunately I am on a time constraint, they all do support my point though, I don’t throw sources on the table without reading them. Also, Increased trade and people-to-people ties with the Middle East are evident.[5] Armenia is looking towards the Middle Eastern market and establishing deeper geopolitical connections with the Middle East.[6] Again i’m unable to provide a comprehensive review of Armenia’s geopolitical position but the CIA is more than able which is why we should be taking that into account and giving the position it’s due weight. Also as stated above Brittanica isn’t comprehensive enough to be used in this situation, I don’t know why we need to establish Western Asia, everyone here agrees on that, this however is controversial.TagaworShah (talk) 04:25, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

You are overlooking a Catch-22 in your main argument. Armenia is located in Western Asia, correct? The Middle East is located in Western Asia, correct? If the Middle East is itself in West Asia, and if West Asia is already very clearly mentioned in this article, then your argument becomes virtually redundant. You are suggesting that we highlight that Armenia has "close relations" with a region in West Asia, even though Armenia is already in West Asia. Furthermore, you keep claiming that this topic of discussion has nothing to do with geography, yet I find it odd that you titled this discussion "Geography of Armenia" and your own edit summary was "Clarifying Armenia’s geographical situation". Archives908 (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Let's review- you claim this has nothing to do with geography and only geopolitics...yet your edit summary and pursuing talk page conversation suggests that something was inherently wrong/missing regarding Armenia's geography. Again, those were the words you used, and they all centre around geography- not geopolitics. So then, if were focusing on "Armenia's geographical situation" as you originally stated, what is your concern that needed fixing? The article very clearly states (in the first sentence of the lede) that Armenia is located in West Asia, the exact same region that the Middle East belongs too. So what exactly is the geographical situation? Archives908 (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

In terms of the original consensus, I couldn't find anything in the article of substance that highlighted Armenia's growing connections/ integration with Europe. Despite Armenia's physical geographical location in West Asia, there should have been some information of Armenia's geopolitical alignment with/to Europe, especially since the ratification of CEPA which brings Armenia much closer politically to the EU. A consensus was finally established to include 1-2 sentences in the lede (strictly focusing on geopolitics). Final result- Armenia's geography in West Asia is aptly covered, and now so too is its geopolitical alignment with Europe. It's balanced and accurate. Archives908 (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

You then decide to include the "Middle East" into that equation, completely overlooking why Europe had been added there in the first place and thus undermining the established consensus. The whole point of adding Europe was because Armenia already had clear apparent connections with West Asia, a region the Middle East belongs too. By adding the Middle East to that 1-2 sentences, detracts from the original goal/purpose of including Europe. Granted, I understand that Middle East/Europe need not be mutually exclusive, but Armenia's connections with Asia are already present, while its connections with Europe were limited. Archives908 (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

You have provided some sources which vaguely classify Armenia as part of the "Greater Middle East", well done. But you have still failed to demonstrate notability. As per WP:NRV, no subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists. Just because a source states that Armenia may be included in the "Greater Middle East", that does not mean the topic has gained significant independent coverage or recognition. Armenia does not currently maintain the same level of geopolitical connections with the Middle East as it does with Europe. I agree with you that they are not mutually exclusive, but they are also not on par. So, why would we (as diligent editors) allow the same level of coverage? Surely, that is misleading to readers. You have not shown any quantifiable proof that Armenia has any significant integration pacts with the Middle East. The only evidence you provided was that Armenia is an observer state in the Arab League. Attending one meeting in 2004 is not notable enough to support your claims. Archives908 (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

The truth is, Armenia and the Caucasus countries in general are left out of most geopolitical pacts involving other Middle Eastern countries. Perhaps that is why the Foreign Ministry of Armenia has confirmed that bilateral relations with the EU and the implementation of CEPA is a top priority. Perhaps that is why the current Government of Armenia makes no mention of its own inclusion within in the GME. Perhaps that is why the EU is the largest/most significant trading partner of Armenia (nearly 30% of all trade is done with the EU). Perhaps that is why Donald Tusk and countless other high ranking European officials reiterate that "Armenia is an integral part of the European family and culture." Perhaps that is why the President of Armenia Armen Sarkissian stated in 2019 that “Armenia is not only a country that signed an agreement with the European Union, but also a country that is and has always been deeply European in terms of culture. Therefore, coming closer to the EU is very natural for us. Armenia is a cradle of European values, from our religion and culture to literature and music.” Perhaps that is why public opinion polls (as of 2020) show increased support of the EU and of prospective membership by the Armenian public. This is quantifiable. I'll request a second time for any polls or statistics you have showing current support for the GME in Armenia? Where is the proof? Archives908 (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

It is for those, and so many other examples (I have dozens more sources) why Armenia is generally considered geopolitically European, not Middle Eastern. Now, if it is a question of geography (as I believe it was, based from your original wording), may I remind you that the article has a geography section which may be more appropriate to include a line or two about the GME, rather then the lede. I believe that would be more appropriate since all of your sources mostly refer to geography, not geopolitics. I am open to compromise, otherwise this conversation will go on for eternity. Needless to say, if we include a line or two about the GME under the geography section, it would still need to be very well sourced (not just relying on the CIA factbook), since by your own admission the definition is very loosely defined. But, as a sign of WP:GF, I'm open to your thoughts on that fair proposal. Archives908 (talk) 15:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

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Please add the Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) in the establishment section. İt was the empire of tigranes the great. And also fix the presidents name back to sarkissian.