Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons

Applying BLP:Crime to deceased persons

I know this is about living persons, but it seems unfair to me that living persons get afforded the benefit of having accusations against them treated as not conclusive enough (on their own) to label them as criminals, yet deceased alleged criminals (some school shooters for instance) are treated not only as having committed or perpetrated what they’re accused of but also as criminals. Double standard?

BLPCRIME

This is a mess of a policy. It asks Wikipedia editors to wait for a "conviction," where the vast majority of cases never go to trial. It is also in direct contradiction with WP:PUBLICFIGURE, which requires that we defer to reliable sources where an allegation has been made. Whether the allegation is merely one of immoral conduct or a crime, reliable source should be the primary determinant of what is included -- not the faux legal opinions of Wikipedia editors. I suggest we seriously consider revising this policy to conform with PUBLICFIGURE or eliminate it entirely. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:24, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I support a revision or rewrite. Convictions take years or sometimes decades in different legal systems. There is nothing encyclopedic with relying on legal processes to run its course. Jay ^(Talk) 18:30, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. I really believe it should simply conform to PUBLICFIGURE. Not all crimes involve otherwise notable persons, but some crimes become notable in of themselves. It puts editors in an extraordinarily awkward position where, on the one hand, a crime is notable enough for inclusion, but on the other, we have this well-intentioned but completely misguided policy instructing them to "wait" on some sort of process to play out. In no other area of Wikipedia are we asked to rely on primary sources rather than reliable, secondary sources. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 18:41, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

If the fact finding process has not come to a conclusion, then there are no reliable secondary sources on the facts. Reliability is always relative to the subject, and with regards to crimes, there are no reliable sources on whether a crime was committed until after a conviction has been secured. --Kyohyi (talk) 19:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Any results directly generated by the judicial system would be a primary source, and thus inappropriate. The New York Times reporting on the matter would be a reliable secondary source. Please explain the thought process here a little better, Kyohyi, because I just don't follow. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:45, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Also, if you're suggesting that somehow the only reliable fact-finding process is one performed by police and prosecutors... Wow. Respectfully, this is a naive and untenable position. Indeed, results produced by police and prosecutors are often rife with errors and bias, as I'm sure you must know. We simply cannot assume that primary "judicial" determinations have to take precedence over what's reported in reliable sources. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

The fact finding process is the trial, yes the police and prosecutors are a part of that, but it's not until the conviction portion where guilt can be determined. Prior to conviction, any source opining on whether or not a person has committed a crime is not reliable for facts since the process which determines guilt in crimes has not finished. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:02, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

PUBLICFIGURE does not require material to be included just because RSes have reported it, that's a failing of the premise above. PUBLICFIGURE only states that we don't have to worry about the privacy of such individuals should such allegations come to light, compared to those that are not public figures. But that said, BLPCRIME does acknowledge that public people can be accused of crimes that are widely reported, but trials can go on forever or be settled out of court or be dismissed quietly. Whether to include those initial accusations is something that should be taken in light over the overall BLP policy (in general "do no harm") - even if it is something widely reported, is this having a long-term affect on a person? And that might take a few days to actually figure out. But assuming it does, we can include that material without waiting for a conviction, we just can't state in any factual way they were guilty of the crime. So there's zero conflict here in the policies; this is exactly keeping with the legal implications of BLP to avoid libel/slander. But key is that WP is not meant to document a laundry list of every negative facet about a person - we're supposed to summarize sources in broad strokes, and thus usually when an event like a potential criminal conviction or a sexual harassment allegation is raised we want to see how that comes down to write in those broad strokes rather than jump to be accusationial; that's part of being neutral, dispassionate, and impartial about BLP topics as required by policy. --Masem (t) 18:50, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't agree with that interpretation of PUBLICFIGURE, which states:

In the case of public figures, there will be a multitude of reliable published sources, and BLPs should simply document what these sources say. If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.

The notion that Wikipedia should subtly filter out negative information isn't consistent with policy. Rather, we should filter out non-notable information, and the rest -- positive or negative -- should be included.

Tell me, what does BLPCRIME add to these basic concerns? What is the point of asking editors to "wait" on a "conviction?" Not only is this language irrelevant to the vast majority of criminal cases, it asks editors to make legal conclusions on matters that are best left to reliable sources. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 19:12, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

BLPCRIME doesn't say we can't include mention of cases that yet to have achieved conviction; just that when the person is question is not a public figure, we don't include that. But it does say that if for a person is of public figure, and we are including material before a conviction has been made, we must presume innocent regardless of how the media play it. --Masem (t) 19:50, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

What does it mean to "presume innocent?" This is not a court of law. If BLPCRIME were merely a reminder to use objective, neutral language and be sure to describe allegations as just that, not fact, that would be fine.

Also, it is not true that we don't include crimes that don't involve notable people. Crimes in of themselves become notable vis-a-vis coverage in reliable secondary sources.

None of this has anything to do with "waiting for a conviction." It's just a confusing instruction, and out of touch with other policies. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 20:46, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

We absolutely are following the courts of law related to anything involve legally defined crimes. As Kyohyi has pointed out, the only authority on determining criminal conviction is the court of law and law authorities, not newspapers, and we must wait until that conviction has been given to actually claim a person is guilty. Otherwise we have to presume and write as if the person was innocent. That doesn't mean we can't talk about any charges placed on them, just that we don't assume they are guilty of them. Very straight forward. The only aspect about waiting for a conviction is when we can factually state if they were guilty, in the eyes of the court of law. --Masem (t) 20:57, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

the only authority on determining criminal conviction is the court of law and law authorities, not newspapers What on earth does this mean? Who is disputing this? Are you saying we can't describe allegations or accusations without implying guilt? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:03, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

I think my point might be getting lost here. I am not arguing for the obviously incorrect point that we should call someone a "criminal" or claim they are "convicted" if they are not. That would fail WP:V along with any number of policies. I am saying that we should include criminal accusations as they are described in reliable, secondary sources, no more, no less. Reference to "judicial rulings," "convictions," pleas, jury verdicts, are not necessary except as through reliable, secondary sources. BLPCRIME as written is unnecessary. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 22:18, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

We can include them, but we should also consider the weight of them relative to the overall biography. Just because someone may be caught in an initial criminal accusation that is heavily covered (such as sexual harassment) doesn't necessarily mean that in the long term that it should be kept if that accusation doesn't pan out in any type of impact on the person's life or career. This is why BLPCRIME is necessary because we tend to have people that think we need to document these indents to the moment which typically assume guilt if we're documenting that detailed a level. This is trying to keep the line from simply spinning gossip on a non-story that has no impact. For example, lots of famous actors get in routine traffic crimes or the like and celebrity magazines will cover all those nitty gritty details, but that's not the type of thing we should be covering at all - unless of course they become notorous for those types of traffic violations. Similarly, if a person accuses a famous person of sexual harassment, that being covered by mainstream sources, but no one that has ties to the professional aspects of that accused person appears to take it seriously and the accusations go nowhere, we shouldn't be documenting them. That's why BLPCRIME is necessary to emphasis that we treat all BLP as innocent of any such allegations made to them, and thus should consider what content to include in that manner, which may include not including the material at all if its its only been reported but not been treated as a serious matter. We're supposed to take a lot more care around BLP and BLPCRIME is one of those needed to help guide editors around these types of matters. --Masem (t) 23:29, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Your elaborations are not reflected in BLPCRIME, and the fact that it requires so much defending and expansion in these explanations alone suggests revisions are in order, to my mind. A few more points:

• Inclusion should not be equated with guilt.
• Your statement If a person accuses a famous person of sexual harassment, that being covered by mainstream sources, but no one that has ties to the professional aspects of that accused person appears to take it seriously and the accusations go nowhere, we shouldn't be documenting them is flatly incorrect. If they are covered in reliable, mainstream sources, we must include them per PUBLICFIGURE.
• BLPCRIME is necessary to emphasis that we treat all BLP as innocent of any such allegations made to them This is obvious. What do you mean by "treat as innocent?" That we have to censor and whitewash accusations?

Particular guidance as to sourcing requirements and objective language are certainly advisable. None of that is provided in BLPCRIME, which makes a vague, confusing reference to "convictions." Do you agree that the policy could be revised to reflect these points more clearly? And is there anything specifically above that I wrote that you disagree with? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 00:17, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

You are absolutely wrong that PUBLICFIGURE says "must include", it has nothing of the source requiring that inclusion. There is never a need to rush to include anything that may be widely reported but has yet to be known if it will have an impact on that person's life, as we are an encyclopedia and meant to summarize biographical details, not day-by-day events. (This applies across all topics but more critical to BLP). BLPCRIME is but just one way to make sure of that, that this is a serious aspect to consider and we should only be including such details when they have been verified by reliable sources and have been shown to have some type of long-term impact on a person's life, rather than just rushing to include just because they have been reported. You're missing the purpose of an encyclopedia if you are trying to include on-the-spot type inclusion before we really know how that should be incorporated and balanced with all other factors related to the person. --Masem (t) 01:50, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

NPOV/PUBLICFIGURE do require that we include weighty information, negative or positive. We are not here to evaluate the "impact on someone's personal life." Say the president of some unnamed country has an affair with a porn star and pays hush money to cover it up, and later claims election fraud. It becomes an international scandal. Are you saying we're here to protect their personal life? Is that what the purpose of Wikipedia is? To act as the personal publicist and caretaker of living persons?

No. The purpose of WP is to present such information responsibly. That means negative and positive information must always be reliably sourced and neutrally presented.

BLPCRIME does not serve those purposes, especially with regard to crime. First of all, most editors don't know what a "conviction" means. Furthermore, we do not actively evaluate legal proceedings for their level of importance. The touchstone of inclusion should always be reliable source coverage, and not vague, fluid, subjective standards. By arguing for more precision and specificity, I am actually arguing for something that should present stronger BLP standards. You are arguing that this should remain as a vague, fluid, and in my opinion poorly worded summary that asks editors to replace the weight in reliable sources with their own, possibly misconceived, opinions and analysis. Why is that necessary? Wikieditor19920 (talk) 06:05, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we want to present such information responsibly, which is not something that most newspapers and other mainstream sources have to worry about, nor are they worried about long-term coverage. That's why we are going to hold back on inclusion of material in BLP that we don't know if it is going to be "weighty information" that actually will be part of how a person's life would be summarized. Of course if a world leader gets caught up in a scandal like the one you described, we would include it, but only after there's been sufficient corroboration that sources agree that the scandal actually exists and not simply because one person, repeated in many sources, claims it exists. We do have a responsibility to be cautious of unsubstantiated claims even if published in RSes related to BLP, and make sure that there's wider agreement that the claims are being taken seriously and would impact the person. And this is also why we use legal standards in considering BLPCRIME and not typical reliable sources, because again, they do not have the responsibility we have. Most editors do know what a conviction is, because that's a well defined legal standard based on actions that are done by judges, and not what RSes claim. The media tends to paint people guilty before the law actually assigns guilt, and that's a key part of why BLPCRIME is necessary because we are sticking to the well-defined legal standards here. The approach you're suggesting would open the door for WP to have the same type of problems that the media constantly faces of defamation because they aren't careful with the standards here and often slip around that. Again, that doesn't mean we can't include when people have been accused of crimes but we have to consider several other factors at play, and the wording cannot at all imply guilt; this is often a problem in the media as they often presume guilt before the trial is even complete. --Masem (t) 06:26, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate your thoughtful replies. At the same time, it is a bit frustrating to repeatedly hear articulations of policies that render them unrecognizable. Of course, this does not mean unfamiliar -- I frequently hear these talking points applied selectively by editors with an agenda seeking to whitewash pages. I am not saying that's you, but these misconceptions are the weapons of choice for biased editors with an agenda, typically seeking to keep negative information out of the article of a favored politician. We will ultimately have to work this out with an RfC, perhaps. However, a few specific responses above.

which is not something that most newspapers and other mainstream sources have to worry about That is why we use high-quality sources rather than tabloids or poor quality sources.

That's why we are going to hold back on inclusion of material in BLP that we don't know if it is going to be "weighty information" that actually will be part of how a person's life would be summarized. Weight is determined purely by coverage in reliable sources, not by the subjective value assigned by individual editors. This objective standard--where followed--ensures neutrality and that no preferential treatment is applied. It is very dangerous to veer away from this.

Again, that doesn't mean we can't include when people have been accused of crimes but we have to consider several other factors at play, and the wording cannot at all imply guilt; This is a given. Let's move past the things we agree on.

The approach you're suggesting would open the door for WP to have the same type of problems that the media constantly faces of defamation because they aren't careful with the standards here and often slip around that. We don't have to worry about accusations of defamation, as long as high quality sources are utilized.

Of course if a world leader gets caught up in a scandal like the one you described, we would include it, but only after there's been sufficient corroboration that sources agree that the scandal actually exists and not simply because one person, repeated in many sources, claims it exists. This is disturbing to me, because it both misrepresents the meaning of substantial coverage and flouts PUBLICFIGURE, which explicitly notes we do not need to wait for allegations to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. This is not a court of law.

Again, these are general discussions about BLP -- but clearly you have some views that are very different from what I've interpreted in the actual policy pages. That's allowed, of course. Nonetheless, I'd like to focus on the issues specific to NOTNEWS that I raised above. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 07:45, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

• Very strongly oppose scrapping it. Also, it doesn't contradict PUBLICFIGURE at all: For individuals who are not public figures; that is, individuals not covered by § Public figures, editors must ... ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 08:11, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

  Don't think it should be scrapped. But the reference to "convictions" is ludicrous. Policies should not require or suggest WP editors do legal analysis or look at primary sources, as opposed to deferring to reliable, secondary sources.

  BLPCRIME should be about:

  1) only using the highest quality sources for criminal charges

  2) avoiding inclusion of information not reported in high quality sources

  3) avoid using court documents or other primary sources

  4) neutral wording to not imply guilt

  None of this is served by the current policy.

  Wikieditor19920 (talk) 09:28, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

  Not to sound condescending, but reading your messages it seems like you're just misunderstanding the purpose of BLPCRIME, which has nothing to do with high quality sources. You can disagree with that purpose, but it would help to first understand why others value the policy before writing verbose arguments as to why it's a bad policy. Editors aren't required to do legal analysis or look at primary sources. You can (and should) look at a secondary source reporting that the Crown Court has convicted XYZ of (for example) rape. BLPCRIME simply says that an allegation that someone has committed rape is not the same as a conviction. Disseminating unconfirmed allegations is harmful to any person, but the line is drawn for private persons. High quality sources are irrelevant because they generally don't judge the evidence, nor do they have access to all of it. They might summarise what the charges are, but even the Daily Mail probably doesn't lie about a court proceeding about XYZ existing. So again, high quality sources are completely irrelevant. The entire purpose of BLPCRIME is to exclude information even when it's reported in high quality sources. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 10:56, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

  @ProcrastinatingReader: If my answers are "verbose," it's only because there's a lot to unpack in what I'm replying to. Trying my best here. And not to worry, you don't sound condescending. Frankly, you sound like you haven't read or understood what I've written.

  To repeat: BLPCRIME simply says that an allegation that someone has committed rape is not the same as a conviction. Why on earth would we need a separate policy to remind users of this? High quality sources are not irrelevant; they are the crux of what we build an article on. An accusation leveled in court by a witness or police officer is no more reliable than anything else. If the New York Times reports an allegation, at least we'll be relying on a proper secondary source.

  And high quality sources are "irrelevant," are you saying we cannot discuss pending charges in an article, absent a "conviction?" What about a conviction of one party to a crime, but not the others? Do you consider a plea deal a conviction? Excluding information that's contained in high quality sources because the matter happens to involve the legal system is a concept pulled out of thin air and totally inconsonant with the rest of how we handle content on Wikipedia. The fact that an editor could interpret BLPCRIME in this manner is exactly why the policy needs to be reworked. Wikieditor19920 (talk) 01:41, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

• I would also be opposed to getting rid of an important policy such as WP:BLPCRIME. The policy also explicitly says that it does not conflict with WP:PUBLICFIGURE, and so I am not sure how that concern is relevant at all. It seems like the primary concern being expressed is that determining when to include criminal accusations and even sometimes convictions is difficult, which is always going to be the case when dealing with one of the most serious areas involving WP:BLP concerns. However, without specific suggestions for improvement of the policy, I'm not sure there is going to be a lot of value in the discussion. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 00:28, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
• I certainly oppose getting rid of WP:BLPCRIME and no actionable proposals for changes have been made. This is about low profile people, not public figures. The initial observation that "vast majority of cases never go to trial" is of no value here because the majority of these cases result in a guilty plea to a lesser charge or with an agreement for a lesser sentence. Those cases result in a criminal conviction just as much as a jury trial, in the United States as well as most other countries that I know about. If charges are dropped, the matter does not belong in the article. This policy language is needed because indignant inexperienced editors frequently try to add salacious allegations to biographies of low profile people, and there needs to be policy language that makes it clear that this is inappropriate. Perhaps there can be some adjustments to the language to improve clarity. If so, propose the changes. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:10, 2 October 2021 (UTC)

• I don't think we should remove it, but it needs rewording: "must seriously consider" is practically an oxymoron in a policy document. Must implies a specific course of action seriously consider is vague and ill-defined. What must we consider when making that decision? inserting "Must not name them until their name has been published by an official source, such as a state prosecutor or police force.. and seriously consider not including.." would be one way to end that sentence. i.e. 'reports in the media' are insufficient. Also, the policy doesn't make it clear what suggesting that they are accused of committing the crime means. can you state that a person has been arrested, linked, or is 'wanted' in connection with a crime, or otherwise imply that they are linked to the crime (without saying they are accused?) All subject to WP:Verifiable of course. JeffUK (talk) 12:27, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

BLP1E change

In looking at BLP1E, some of the wording strikes me as problematic when comparing it to policy at WP:CRYSTAL (and the relevant essay WP:TOOSOON). It seems to me that the words "likely to remain" a low profile individual are often used at AFD to make people prove that the person won't be notable in the future. I often find such arguments impossible to make because we are essentially arguing about the future. Isn't this essentially encoding a predictive element into the guideline in violation of CRYSTAL and TOOSOON? Keeping a low profile person who is likely to become high profile in the future doesn't seem like a good policy in light of the fact that the world is unpredictable. I would think that it would be better to just make BLP1E people wait until a second notable event actually happens with sources proving it in order to have an article on wikipedia. I mean anything can happen. People with promise suddenly disappear for all sorts of reasons (illness, death, personal tragedy, world events, etc.). There's nothing wrong with making people wait to have an article until they truly are notable for more than one event. I am starting this discussion to get a feeling for other's opinions. If there is a consensus that a change is needed, then maybe the next step would be an RFC.4meter4 (talk) 18:58, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I agree, and would support removing the words "and is likely to remain" from WP:BLP1E. It would be inappropriate for us to claim that BLP1E doesn't apply to someone who remains a low-profile individual, based only on speculation that they might not be one in the future. Particularly given how low-profile individual is explained, there is absolutely no way for us to know whether or not it will apply in the future.--Trystan (talk) 13:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

WP:BLPEDU?

I just removed a privacy violation from Ludwig Ahgren, that violation being a PDF of a list of students who graduated Arizona State University with him, which includes himself. I replaced the PDF with a less concerning source, a Looper article. Because of PDFs like the one I just mentioned, I believe that there should be a guideline pertaining to education privacy, two of the shortcuts I will call WP:BLPEDUCATION and WP:BLPEDU. Let me know your opinions. Thank you all in advance for your inputs. L33tm4n (talk) 15:30, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

That ASU posted the graduation pamphlet to its website would not make it a privacy violation to use it as a reference, much in the same manner that we absolutely use sources that name people that would would not name under BLPCRIME or the like. It would be inappropriate to recreate that list in full here. It would be inappropriate if the pamphlet was not made public by the school and we were dealing with a scanned image provided by an attendee from their own personal website. --Masem (t) 15:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

@Masem: Thank you for your input.

Not only is this about Ahgren, I also wanted to talk about minors and their education statuses. I couldn't find any guidelines pertaining to a minor's education status. If there are any, let me know. Thanks. L33tm4n (talk) 23:23, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Non-notable minors (including children of notable people, since notability is not inherited) we generally avoid naming or identifying in any capability unless it is clearly shown relevant to the BLP involved. I could have sworn there was something about this specifically at WP:BLP but I don't see it, outside of what BLPPRIVACY states. But that doesn't mean that sources that identify minors by name or other details can't be used if they are otherwise reliable, for the same reasons above. --Masem (t) 02:06, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

Masem, maybe you were thinking of the guidance from Template:Infobox person, which says "only list names of independently notable or particularly relevant children" and "For privacy reasons, consider omitting the names of living children, unless notable"? I don't think there is anything specific regarding the main body, as many articles contain the names and birth dates of the children of notable people, such as politicians and celebrities. Policies like WP:BLPPRIMARY, WP:BLPPRIVACY, and WP:BLPNAME are helpful in many situations to at least limit the amount of information, such as only including the first name and year of birth for children and others who are not notable but have been mentioned in some sources. Regarding the original question, I'm not sure what "education privacy" means, but people graduating from Arizona State University are not going to be minors. BLPPRIMARY says to "exercise extreme caution in using primary sources", and BLPPRIVACY is clear that full names would have to be widely published to be included in an article. For what type of external links can be used in an article, Wikipedia:External links is not very specific, but I think that type of link could be argued to violate "the spirit of WP:BLP". However, those types of discussions are probably better done on case-by-case basis, with the understanding that there is a strong presumption in favor of privacy. – wallyfromdilbert (talk) 03:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

​@Wallyfromdilbert: Thank you. One, I meant to say where a minor is being educated, not their education status; and two, I never said people graduating from ASU were going to be minors, I just said that we should also take the location of a minor's education into consideration, as they would most likely want it private. L33tm4n (talk) 17:21, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

BLPs and image sourcing

I wrote an opinion piece in the Signpost on the recent Nathaniel White legal case: Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2021-10-31/Opinion

This involved a police photograph of a living person being used for several years as the lead image in the WP article on a serial killer of the same name.

There are obvious BLP and image sourcing implications, and it would be great to see some discussion about how to address them, and how to minimise the chances of similar cases arising in the future. Thanks, --Andreas JN466 19:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

I would think that if we cannot readily collaborate the person identified in an image by other images of that person (read: this is the only image of that person that can be found at this time), then we should expect that the source of that image should be a BLP-qualifying RS so that we know they are (to the best of their ability) affirming the validity of that person. (This would be different if, for example, I went to Flickr and found a random CC-BY of Michael Jordan by an unknown (and pretty much assured its not flickrwashing), as I can readily compare that picture to other photos of Jordan to verify). Or as a more broader rule, for people who we do not identify as public figures (WP:PUBLICFIGURE) that any image should have this type of RS source confirmation, since someone who is a public figure is expected to have good visibility and already likely to have been photographed. --Masem (t) 00:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

For starters, we should require that all mugshots be sourced to reliable sources. Scraping mugshots from Murderpedia and tabloids should not be acceptable. It's amazing that there haven't been more cases like Nathaniel White's given our lax standards. Nosferattus (talk) 06:18, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I went ahead and added the following sentence: Mugshots, when used in articles, must be sourced to reliable sources. Nosferattus (talk) 06:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

It is a good step, but I think we can make it a bit stronger, as it isn't so much mugshots (even though I agree they are a significant issue) but potentially any photo of a person charged or convicted of a major crime. - Bilby (talk) 06:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Yes, a good step, and glad to see we're making headway. Can we put some thought into distinguishing the types of sources we consider reliable enough for this purpose, i.e. sources that we consider to have a sufficient "reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", from more questionable sources that might cause us and the people depicted a problem? --Andreas JN466 13:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Diff. What do you think? --Andreas JN466 16:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this was the intention, but this seems to have the effect of weakening the previous wording, in the sense that it only requires RS sourcing for mugshots if they're "used to imply that the person depicted was charged with or convicted of a specific crime". Colin M (talk) 17:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

I see what you mean, though I'm not sure what problematic cases there might be that would not involve tying the person depicted to an instance of being charged or convicted of a crime. I really just meant it to get people thinking about what they are doing, and act responsibly.

Separate issue: I wonder whether we should explicitly deprecate true crime sources, as they're by definition sensationalist. Thoughts? --Andreas JN466 19:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

[1] "Any police photograph used to imply that the person depicted was charged with or convicted of a specific crime must be sourced to a top-quality reliable source with a widely acknowledged reputation for fact-checking and accuracy that links the relevant image to the specific incident or crime in question." Does that work? --Andreas JN466 21:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Has there ever been such a thing as a non-top-quality reliable source? By definition, if the reliable source is enough not-top-quality to matter, it's not a reliable source at all. So the phrase has no meaning, and all references to "top-quality" reliable sources should be purged from Wikipedia. Ken Arromdee (talk) 14:43, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Plenty of generally reliable sites have a poor track record when it comes to claims about living persons. Take a look through WP:RSP and you'll see that many entries have specific notes about BLP content. In addition, reliability is contextual. Additionally, you can have experts that are absolutely reliable in their area of expertise—whether it's model railroads or plant genetics or astrophysics—that simply aren't qualified to talk about mugshots. Woodroar (talk) 15:24, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

I would just call that scenario "reliable for railroads but not for mugshots".

If "not top quality relaible source" actually means "reliable for some purposes but not others", we would be saying "well, mugshots need top quality reliable sources, but some other things only need low quality reliable sources". I have never seen anyone on Wikipedia even claim that a low quality reliable source exists, let alone that there's anything that it's okay to use one for. "Top quality", when there is no such thing as low quality, is marketing-speak and has no place in Wikipedia. Ken Arromdee (talk) 17:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

It's probably wrong to assume that a small tweak to policy will prevent situations like this. The broader issue appears to have been the simple lack of any real editorial oversight at all, and that affects everything. Even after this BLP was lit up, still nobody has even noticed the DOB isn't even sourced. Policy says that should be removed immediately. Mackabrillion (talk) 18:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Absolutely (and well spotted with the date ). There must be thousands of police photographs on Wikipedia ... a substantial proportion of them will be as poorly sourced as this one was. Who will check them all? Even if this policy change sticks, many people will carry on as before. Lasting and pervasive change of practices will take years. (That can happen though ... the other day, I looked at BLP edits from 2008 ... things have moved on a bit.) Cheers, --Andreas JN466 19:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

WP:BLPSTYLE - Actions vs beliefs or identity

• WP:VPP § WP:BLPSTYLE - Actions vs beliefs or identity

A proposal related to this policy page is being discussed at VPP, input welcome, —PaleoNeonate – 11:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

Suggestion for WP:COPSEP

See this discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 10:35, 6 November 2021 (UTC)