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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 169.0.0.32 (talk) at 08:55, 11 January 2022 (→‎No Bias here: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Sources list

Retain this thread indefinitely, do not archive 
--Geoffry Thomas (talk) 08:13, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than further circular argument, it may be useful to focus on which main sources are considered reliable and to what extent they can be used if the source is a strong advocate of one viewpoint. As an example of this in action Talk:Israel Shamir has a list of agreed sources that were used to re-build this controversial subject after it was reduced to a stub. With such a basic list of agreed sources, justifying text for inclusion creates far less heat. Fæ (talk) 09:18, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some initial suggestions, online in english (particularly for the incidental biographical and contextual information): --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 09:59, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(Reformated only, please add opinions on reliability or suggested limitations due to bias next to each source. Fæ (talk) 10:09, 23 November 2010 (UTC))[reply]
Sources listing

1-10

  1. Hameed, S (2008), "Bracing for Islamic Creationism" (PDF), Science, 322 (5908): 1637–1638, doi:10.1126/science.1163672, ISSN 0036-8075, OCLC 297161310
  2. Riexinger, Martin (2008), "Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet", Masaryk U. J.L. & Tech., 99
    I am unable to find this listed on WorldCat. The link appears to be to the abstract rather than the article. The journal is Masaryk University journal of law and technology, Faculty of Law, Masaryk University, ISSN 1802-5951, OCLC 299175896 {{citation}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |1= (help) and I am unclear on how significant or respected this journal is, there are very few citations to the Journal listed in Google Scholar. Fæ (talk) 10:27, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Kjaergaard, P C (2008), Western front: Creationism is on the march in Europe (PDF), New humanist : the bimonthly journal of the Rationalist Press Association. 123, no. 3: The Association, pp. 39–41, ISSN 0306512, OCLC 229319553 {{citation}}: Check |issn= value (help)CS1 maint: location (link)
  4. Clash Of Discourses: The Discussions On Evolution And Creationism In Turkey Elif Cavuslu.
    Red XN This appears unpublished and so probably not peer reviewed. I find no matches to this author on WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 10:41, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Evolving Allah: Can one man Succeed in Stirring up the Muslim World Against Darwin? doi:10.3200/SRCH.20.2.24-30, Nathan Schneider
    No abstract and behind paywall. Unable to find this article on JSTOR or WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Akhtar, Shabbir (1990), A faith for all seasons : Islam and the challenge of the modern world, I.R. Dee, ISBN 9780929587639
    Green tickY I find this book cited in Google Scholar 21 times. Fæ (talk) 11:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  7. Taner Edis (1994), "Islamic Creationism In Turkey", Creation/Evolution, 34.1
    Green tickY Appears to be a suitable summary though being 16 years old this might be superseded or factually out of date (see #34 below as an alternate). Fæ (talk) 14:29, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. Mohd. Nor bin Ngah (1983), Kitab Jawi: Islamic Thought of the Malay Muslim Scholars Kitab Jawi : Islamic thought of the Malay Muslim scholars, Research notes and discussions paper, no. 33, Institute of Southeast Asian Studies, ISBN 9789971902292 {{citation}}: Check |url= value (help) also see review in Asian Studies Review doi:10.1080/03147538408712353
  9. Yudhijit Bhattacharjee (May 23, 2008), "Newsmakers", Science, 320 (5879), American Association for the Advancement of Science: 995
    Green tickY This news item (not an article) is probably covered in easier to access sources. The relevant text is extracted below for those without access:
    Newsmakers - In The Courts

    PROLIFIC. An Istanbul court has sentenced an influential Islamic creationist to 3 years in prison for starting a criminal organization and profiting from it. But the conviction, which Adnan Oktar says he will appeal, seems unlikely to stem the flood of creationist books and DVDs he is publishing. Oktar, who uses the pen name Harun Yahya, became well-known outside Turkey when his Foundation for Scientific Research (BAV) widely distributed its Atlas of Creation, a stunning, 768-page tome (Science, 16 February 2007, p. 925). BAV is not directly linked to the activities that landed Oktar in trouble, and creationism had nothing to do with the charges. Even so, a BAV spokesperson says Oktar is being persecuted “because of his ideas.” Given the political pressures on Turkey’s justice system, that’s “not entirely implausible,” says physicist Taner Edis of Truman State University in Kirksville, Missouri, who has followed the case closely. BAV says “the work will go on” even if its leader goes to prison.

    —Fæ (talk) 11:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  10. Abdul Majid. "The Muslim Responses To Evolution". Islamic Research Foundation International, Inc.
    Red XN Unable to find this paper on WorldCat. The author might be the author of the book "The glorious Qur'ān : text, translation and commentary". As the website/organization exists to "promote the understanding of al-Qur'an and Hadith in the light of modern knowledge" this website should be considered unsuitable as an independent source. As the website states "Anyone disagrees with any specific article, he/she may write an article with his/her opposing view points giving pertinent reference", it would fail WP:RS or WP:ELNO as it would count as an open forum rather than a publisher. Fæ (talk) 11:25, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

11-20

  1. Williams, N (2008), "Secular Turkeys evolution battle", Current biology, 18.10, Current Biology Ltd: R398–R399, ISSN 0960-9822, OCLC 346906884
    Green tickY This is a relatively short feature, generally about creationism vs. evolutionism with one relevant statement - "Headed by Adnan Oktar, BAV made headlines internationally in February last year when it mailed copies of a weighty and lavishly illustrated Atlas of Creation to teachers and researchers both in Turkey and worldwide. BAV's activities are integrally connected to the rise of Islamic fundamentalism in Turkey, where secularism and science have become more rooted and strongly established than in many other Islamic countries." Fæ (talk) 22:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Pasquale, Frank L. (2008), "The Cultural Particularity of Conflict between "Religion" and "Science" in a Global Context", Secularism & science in the 21st century, Institute for the Study of Secularism in Society and Culture, p. 75, ISBN 0615196349
    Green tickY Brief mention on page 75. Probably too tangential to be a useful reference. Fæ (talk) 22:27, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Turkey's EU Accession Reaches an Impasse, William Chislett, Working Paper 34/2009, 3/7/2009, Elcano Royal Institute Madrid http://www.realinstitutoelcano.org
    Green tickY+ Quality source (probably) but unlikely to be that useful as the only mention of Oktar in this long document is to say "Intelligent design is taught in some Turkish schools, thanks to some extent to Adnan Oktar, a preacher who set up the Bilim Arastirma Vakfi (Scientific Research Foundation), and the schools of Fetullah Gülen. Oktar’s Atlas of Creation has been distributed around the Muslim world and Europe." I would also like to see where exactly this is published in terms of judging authority, it is a working paper and does not appear on WorldCat. Fæ (talk) 11:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    I suggested this source to provide context. The shift from Evolutionism to Creationism in Turkey was part of a general shift in political ideology accompanying the rejection of Turkey from joining the EU, and its leaning towards becoming a regional power. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:04, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Context is useful, however I would suggest a well respected book on the subject would be more authoritative than a (non-neutral) organization's working paper. Fæ (talk) 12:18, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Riexinger, Martin (2009), "Responses of South Asian Muslims to the Theory of Evolution", Die Welt des Islams, 49.2, BRILL: 212–247, ISSN 0043-2539, OCLC 439756576
    Unable to get access, not available via JSTOR. Fæ (talk) 12:03, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Guessoum, Nidhal (2008), "The Qur'an, Science, And The (Related) Contemporary Muslim Discourse", Zygon, 43.2, Blackwell Publishing: 411–431, doi:10.1111/j.1467-9744.2008.00925.x, ISSN 0591-2385, OCLC 438137469
    Red XN Extensive paper, however the only mention of Oktar is once on page 429 in a footnote rather than in the text and even then he is only mentioned in a list of four writers. Fæ (talk) 12:14, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Again for context, these and several of the following were to highlight Evolution vs Creation in Islamic thought. I thought it was better if the source at least mentioned Oktar. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Propagating Islamic Creationism on the Internet
  7. Filiu, Jean-Pierre (May 21, 2009), "The Return of Political Mahdism", Current Trends In Islamist Ideology, 8, Chapter 8{{citation}}: CS1 maint: location (link) (PDF)
    Suggested for context, Islamic Messianism is mentioned in several of the sources already quoted, but not covered in the wikipage. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:37, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    Green tickY+ Possibly a reliable source, however the publishing organization has a particular non-academic political mission and their own statement "To contribute to the development of American policy options and public diplomacy efforts within the Muslim world and to strategies to prosecute and to win the war against radical Islam." seems rather partisan and may influence the choice and content of publications. Fæ (talk) 10:30, 25 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  8. The Anti‐Christ and the End of Time in Christian and Muslim Eschatological Literature
  9. Apocalypse in Islam
  10. Islam at the Dawn of the New Christian Millennium

21-30

  1. Constantinople and the End Time: The Ottoman Conquest as a Portent of the Last Hour
  2. New Muslim discourses on pluralism in the postmodern age: Nursi on religious pluralism and tolerance.
    Suggested for context, Bediuzzaman Said Nursi, and his influence on Oktar, is mentioned in several of the sources already quoted, but not covered in the wikipage. --Geoffry Thomas (talk) 12:38, 24 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Bediuzzaman Said Nursi's Discourse on Belief in Allah: A Study of Texts from Risale-i Nur Collection
  4. God, Life, and the Cosmos: Christian and Islamic Perspectives Edited by Ted Peters, Muzaffar Iqbal and Syed Nomanul Haq
  5. Reflections on Gülen Movement: How Islam is Promoting Liberal Democracy in Turkey
  6. Turkish Islam's Moderate Face
  7. Fethullah Gulen and His Liberal" Turkish Islam" Movement
  8. Intercivilizational Conflict: Some Guidelines and Some Fault Lines
  9. Post-Islamism and the Religious Discourse of Abd Al-Salam Yasin
  10. Religion and politics in Turkey

31-40

  1. Towards an Islamic Jurisprudence of the Environment
  2. Technology and religious change: Islam and the impact of print
  3. Cultural transitions in the Middle East
  4. Access Controlled: The Shaping of Power, Rights, and Rule in Cyberspace‎
  5. Sayin, Umit; Kence, Aykut (Nov–Dec 1999), Islamic Scientific Creationism: A New Challenge in Turkey, vol. 19, Reports of the National Center for Science Education, pp. 18–20, 25–29, ISSN 1064-2358, OCLC 425451166{{citation}}: CS1 maint: date format (link) CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link) Summary: Compares "being Muslim" in Turkey with other Islamic countries and describes the regime changes of the Ottoman Empire to the Turkish Republic. Explains evolution in Islamic understanding and discusses creationism's effects and evolution's place in the high school biology curriculum. Defines the Science Research Foundation's (BAV) and Harun Yahya's roles in the Creationist movement.
  6. Emergence of the Islamic creationists by Jeffrey A. Stratford. Pdf-version here
  7. Harun Yahya's Legal Troubles
  8. Harrison, Peter (2010). The Cambridge Companion to Science and Religion. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 141. ISBN 0521712513. -- has about half a page on Oktar. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:41, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  9. Spencer, Robert (2003). Islam Unveiled. San Francisco: Encounter Books. p. 27. ISBN 1893554775. -- 1/3 page. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 07:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

41-

  1. Numbers, Ronald (2009). Galileo Goes to Jail. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. p. 222. ISBN 0674033272.
  2. "The Creationists: From Scientific Creationism to Intelligent Design" by Ronald Numbers
  3. "The Illusion of Harmony" by Taner Edis
  4. "TAXONOMY ALIVE AND KICKING: OR HOW TAXONOMY CAN HELP DEBUNKING CREATIONIST THINKING" by Thierry Backeljau, Kurt Jordaens & António M. de Frias Martins; published at the Gent University website; 2011
  5. "AN ATTEMPT TO DESCRIBE ISLAMIC CREATIONISM" by Andya Primanda, Gadjah Mada University, 2004
  6. THE MAHDI WEARS ARMANI, An Analysis of the Harun Yahya Enterprise; by Anne Ross Solberg, Södertörn Doctoral Dissertations, Department of Literature, History of Ideas, and Religion, University of Gothenburg, 2013
  7. Police cracks down on obscure sect by Amberin Zaman, turkeyupdate.com, 8 December 1999; via archive.org

General comments on sources

  1. It would be preferable to have had information on where these were published, and who the author is -- the first two elements in checking reliability.
  2. The first three sources appear to be prima facie reliable.
  3. The fourth I've got insufficient information to assess reliability.
  4. The 5th seems to be reliable, but are behind a paywall (can't even find out what journal its from) -- please don't link to pdfs that are behind paywalls -- they're a complete and utter pain -- you end up with html mislabelled as pdf (and thus unreadable without changing file suffixes).
  5. 6 & 7 appear to be prima facie reliable.
  6. 8 I've got insufficient information to assess reliability.
  7. 9 behind a paywall , but reliable.
  8. 10 okay reliability (not published, but respectable author & website)
  9. 11 behind a paywall , but reliable.
  10. 12 reliable
  11. 13 no page from link
  12. 14&15 reliable
  13. 16=2

Will take a break now. HrafnTalkStalk(P) 10:57, 23 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Academic source

Found this https://gupea.ub.gu.se/bitstream/2077/32080/1/gupea_2077_32080_1.pdf which is not listed in the Refs.

sami.olcun@weforum.org

Sami Olcun is one of the names he used Seedyoil (talk) 07:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Adnan_Oktar/Archive_3#%22Sami_Olcun%22_name_is_wrong._should_change_2 Shadow4dark (talk) 14:17, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Translation of sources

Please provide translation of non-English language sources as these are disputed.

82.17.78.24 (talk) 23:50, 14 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sami Olcun

Sami Olcun was a blackmail asset working for MIT and the 13 eyes. Its the same person, no other record of a Sami Olcun, Australian intelligence listed him as the head of the sex industry in Istanbul as early as 1987. Darwinmy (talk) 13:34, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please see above, we need more sources. Shadow4dark (talk) 13:44, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
More like an expired Turkish intelligence asset Privavive (talk) 12:43, 22 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No Bias here

I can tell someone who really loved him wrote this article. I think the NPOV of this entire article needs to be flagged. He runs a sex cult. --169.0.0.32 (talk) 08:55, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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