Talk:Benjamin Disraeli

Depictions

Rjensen (and anyone else), do you think it worth a mention that the Conservative leader in Trollope's Palliser novels, Mr. Daubeny, was based on Disraeli? See for example, here.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:36, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

yes that is relevant to popular culture portrayals. Rjensen (talk) 13:19, 29 August 2017 (UTC)

Hartlebury and homosexuality

• He co-wrote the novel Hartlebury with his sister Sarah, a fact "only comparatively recently" discovered by the editors of the BD Letters. This is according to William Kuhn's The Politics of Pleasure: A Portrait of Benjamin Disraeli, p. 146. We need to add this to his bibliography.

• This is the same William Kuhn who is referred to at Talk:Benjamin Disraeli/Archive 1#Homosexual propensity totally ignored. I recommend it for an eye-opening perspective on Disraeli's dandyism and clear interest in younger men. There is a wealth of material presented, although Kuhn admits there is no smoking gun that proves Disraeli ever had sexual relations with other men. But his emotional and romantic attachment to men is indisputable. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:58, 25 May 2018 (UTC)

The references provide enough about his ancestry

The problem is, the way it's written is terrible.

The source says, "Disraeli's mother's ancestors included Isaac Aboab, the last Gaon of Castille, the Cardoso family (among whose members were Isaac Cardoso and Miguel Cardoso), the Rothschilds, and other prominent families".

Also, "Both Disraeli's grandfathers were born in Italy; Isaac's father, Benjamin, moved in 1748 from Venice to England. His second wife, Disraeli's grandmother, was Sarah Shiprut de Gabay Villareal. The maternal grandfather, Naphtali Basevi from Verona, settled in London in 1762. He married in 1767 Rebecca Rieti, born in England, the daughter of Sarah Cardoso and granddaughter of Jacob Aboab Cardoso who was already born in London (from this line, Disraeli had already four generations born in the UK)."

And another one, "Of these surnames, Shiprut de Gabay, Cardoso, Aboab, and, most likely, Israeli are Sephardic, Basevi is of Ashkenazic origin, while Rieti was originally taken by a family whose ancestors lived in Italy for centuries; see Beider, Alexander."

Now, what is written in the text? Let's see, "The family was mainly of Sephardic Jewish Italian mercantile background."

That's entirely missing the point! First of all, not all Jew living in Italy are Sephardic, there is also a group called Italkim that is neither Ashkenazi nor Sephardi, and that's about the Rieti family.

As for his descent of the Rothschilds and Basevi, that's Ashkenazi origin.

The rest is Sephardic. You can't just say he was of one ancestry when he actually belonged to three different Jewish rites, in terms of ancestry. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 20:23, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

This is very interesting, but unfortunately the changes now say, falsely, that the cited Wolf essay mentions the Rothschilds and Cardoso. It doesn't. If you wish to mention them you will need to find a source to substantiate the statement rather than sneak it in under the pretence that an existing citation covers it. Tim riley talk 20:54, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

But it does, here it is: "Disraeli's mother's ancestors included Isaac Aboab, the last Gaon of Castille, the Cardoso family (among whose members were Isaac Cardoso and Miguel Cardoso), the Rothschilds, and other prominent families; Disraeli was described in The Times as having "some of the best blood in Jewry".

You can find it under 7 Wolf, Lucien. "The Disraeli Family", The Times, 21 December 1904, p. 12 in references, or 1-3 sources in the notes. Sometimes you need to point at the reference at the end of a note for more information.

Have a thorough look at the references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 21:20, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

Your addition is, I am sure sincere, but it still says, mendaciously, that the Times article says what you say it says. It doesn't. I have a copy of it in front of me. What you say may be true, but you must provide honest citations. Tim riley talk 21:58, 11 September 2019 (UTC)

But the citations are honest, and I didn't provide them - they were always there! I'm confused, what point exactly do you think isn't referenced well enough? Could you please provide me with a specific quote from the text? I'll be happy to address any point. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 12:31, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I don't know how more clearly I can put it. You have ascribed to the Times article mention of the Rothschilds and Cardoso that are not mentioned in it. That is dishonest and unacceptable. Tim riley talk 19:40, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

OK, I see - got you. Allow me to add a few sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 22:14, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

The principle is described in WP:INTEGRITY. The cited source needs to support the details in the main text. Adding new facts but not new sources to support them undermines the integrity of the text. Mackensen (talk) 21:43, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

And may I suggest, Maxim, that for everyone's convenience, please use easily accessible sources so we can look at them. Do not place them beyond the sea, so that we should ask "Who should cross the sea and get them for us, so that we may read them and check them?"--Wehwalt (talk) 22:21, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

I understand that, I've added another source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxim.il89 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

MP in post-nominals

Would it be procedurally correct to give "MP" among his postnominals when for the last five years of his life he was no longer in the House of Commons but in the Lords? MPs normally bear the postnominal while sitting.Cloptonson (talk) 14:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Jew in categories?

This man had nothing to do with Jewish identity: he was never in Judaism, he never declared his commitment to Jewish ethnicity and did not participate in Jewish life. Considering that he was an Anglican and an Englishman all his life, also the twice prime minister not of Israel, but of Great Britain, is there any sense in these categories of him as a Jew? By analogy: by consensus in discussion, Karl Marx is should not considered a Jew in any form, despite his Jewish origin of his parents. Should this gentleman be? 31.40.131.100 (talk) 14:28, 17 February 2022 (UTC)