Talk:Libs of TikTok
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Should LibsOfTikTOk be categorized as Category:Disinformation operations?
Chaya Raichik is about to be sued by a drag queen whom she defamed with doctored material. She spread the fake video even after it had been debunked by media and authorities clarified no crime was depicted in it. She has never deleted the slanderous tweet, though. And she's spread fake news before, some instances of which are already explained in the entry. What are you all's opinions? Peleio Aquiles (talk) 17:59, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
- I don't think we have any sources which talk about a disinformation operation, remember it isn't the same thing as spreading disinformation. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:03, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
- No because it is not disinformation and honestly this whole article is siting a left wing source with no proof or evidence. It has been reveal as of rachak's instagram that there has beeen no bomb threat and the local police also did not know what happened. The narrative was an attempt to defame rachiak ExperimentXOfficial (talk) 02:57, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- What are you even talking about? If it's about the bomb threat to the Boston Children's Hospital, an arrest has already been made in connection to that. And police have already confirmed that, actually, dozens of bomb threats have been made against that target following Chaya Raichik's posts. You're either confused or lying, and you should not be allowed to edit this entry. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 12:35, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
- No because it is not disinformation and honestly this whole article is siting a left wing source with no proof or evidence. It has been reveal as of rachak's instagram that there has beeen no bomb threat and the local police also did not know what happened. The narrative was an attempt to defame rachiak ExperimentXOfficial (talk) 02:57, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
This article needs work (neutrality)
Raichik remained anonymous until her identity was revealed in April 2022 by both software developer Travis Brown and Washington Post journalist Taylor Lorenz. Some conservatives accused Lorenz of doxxing as a result, while others defended Lorenz from criticism
You can't give a 1:1 description of doxing and then claim that it wasn't. recentlyryan RecentlyRyan 09:49, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia repeats what reliable sources report, which in this case is that it is disputed whether the reveal was doxxing. It would be original research to assert that the report was doxxing based on our own interpretation of the circumstances. ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 09:54, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
- It needs to be included in the entry that Chaya Raichik has a long history of posting people's personal and employment information online to provoke harassment from her followers, something that Taylor Lorenz never did to her, and that she only stopped so doing after lawyering up. It is not neutral to write line after line describing her and her followers whining about her being "doxed", when her own blatant participation in this practice is left without acknowledgement. Peleio Aquiles (talk) 17:52, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
another day, another SPA starting a fake debate over a completely wrong interpretation of NPOV Dronebogus (talk) 10:05, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
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How is this article any way "neutral"? If I were to say "Clearly this article is written from a radical leftists point of view." I am no longer being neutral, I am labeling the author with an opinion and setting the reader in a specific way of thinking before they have even read what I have to say. I have no idea if the author is an extremist with their politics, so its unfair to lable them as extreme. The term "Far Right" has incredibly negative connotations associated with it (as does the term "Radical Left"). So I feel it shouldn't be included in the article. In fact the terms "Far Right" and "Radical Left" should never be used as a descriptor unless said person has publicly stated they are in one of these categories. Far right and radical left are labels created by the opposing party in an attempt to discredit anyone givin such a lable, thereby giving the impression that they are "extreme" or don't represent the main stream views of their respective parties. If most of the people on the right or left agree with the view point of someone labeled "far right" or "radical left", then the person with said label is just right or left. There is nothing extreme or radical with their view point (at least within their own party) if most others in the party hold the same point of view. And Libs of Tik Tok isn't even presenting its own point of view when posting videos. It is literally just reposting the videos of other creators while adding no original content or commentary. Now the comments section on any of Libs of Tik Tok is an entirely different story. There are many people who post in the comments section who definitely hold extreme views, but again thats the comments section and if you've ever been on the internet before you'll know that any video on the internet will have its share of extremist down in the comments. Druskeet (talk) 05:54, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
Wow. I really wish you read my entire post, because that statement says alot and I now have a completely different understanding of Wikipedia. There's alot to unpack from such a short statement but Im going to start with the important part: "..we follow sources, not opinions." Do you really not see what you just said??? Claiming LoTT is far right IS AN OPINION. So any sorces you follow or quote from that say LoTT is far right, are also just giving there opinions. The other part, and the most alarming part that proves you're not actually looking for neutrality: "Unfortunately (for you)..."
Nothing I wrote was insulting or derogatory towards anyone so the only reason to insult me would be that you found my idea insulting. If my idea was just wrong you'd simply explain why I was wrong but that's not what happened. My idea was offensive to you so you felt like you could be offensive to me, and that just proves you dont care about neutrality. A truly neutral sorce reports only fact, and all facts, even if those facts are not in alignment with their own personal views. I realize what said was lengthy, but I felt everything I said, needed to be said in order to show that I was coming from a neutral point of view as well as show why terms like "far right" and "radical left" are inflammatory and definitely dont reflect neutrality. Druskeet (talk) 07:46, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
And in case you didn't read that. Terms like "Far Right" and "Radical Left" are opinions that set the reader in a specific frame of mind. I am against both terms. They should not be used to describe a person or institution (unless said person or institution specifically claims the label) on site that most people view as FACT only. Most people believe this site is like the encyclopedia (it used to be) in that no opinions are givin and therefore anything they read can be taken as fact. Druskeet (talk) 08:02, 26 November 2022 (UTC) Well then the word neutrality shouldnt be used. Because again, up until now, I like most other people assuming Wikipedia to be a neutral sorce of information where you could get the facts. Druskeet (talk) 08:06, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
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Colorado
collapse as mostly unproductive wall of text
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LOTT posted nothing directly about the Colorado night club. It's a complete stretch to even include an article about it. Why not include the same for anyone/everyone who has said something against drag queen shows? 2600:1700:F21:9570:3CF3:F0DF:7311:22E2 (talk) 13:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
You used "incite" in both justifications for the inclusion of referencing articles. Could you please cite the specific "incitement" of harassment and/or violence from LoTT? 2600:1700:1CD0:D9C0:8C3F:AC03:2FCB:E6D3 (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
A reminder that Korny has voiced support for some the hate rhetoric and conspiracy theories that Chaya Raichik has spread, such as the idea that the Trevor Project is a covert grooming operation. Wasn't there a discussion in the administration board to topic-ban him from LGBT entries a little while ago? Peleio Aquiles (talk) 16:18, 22 November 2022 (UTC)
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Colorado Springs shooter is "non-binary"
another wall of text Dronebogus (talk)
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The latest news about the Colorado Springs gay nightclub shooting is that the shooter now claims to be non-binary. Is this proof that Libs of TikTok is not somehow responsible for the shooting? No - the shooter could be trolling, or maybe he's sincere but still a fan of Libs of TikTok, and was motivated as a result to specifically target gay people. And no matter what the real situation is, the fact remains that the previous speculation by The Independent, PinkNews, Juliette Kayyem etc. was published in reliable sources, and will forever be notable by Wikipedia standards, even if it turns out to be completely false. However, I think this news underscores the pointlessness of simply arguing that anything published in reliable sources belongs in Wikipedia. We exercise editorial discretion, and that includes avoiding speculation that appears to be baseless, even if supposedly reliable journalists state it. I think WP:NOTSCANDAL applies here, as does a general sense that we should wait for the real facts to emerge. Korny O'Near (talk) 14:32, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
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Disinformation from editors about Colorado shooting
Since Korny won't let me edit his tendentious title, I'll leave this here as proof that he was likely spreading disinformation when he excitedly came to announce that the shooter is "non-binary":
Xavier Kraus, a neighbor of the accused shooter, said he and his girlfriend lived across the hall from Aldrich and their mother until September. Kraus said they mostly played video games together, often in Aldrich’s apartment.
Aldrich would occasionally express hateful attitudes toward people, Kraus recalled.
Kraus said he specifically remembered one time “Aldrich vocalized verbally” that they “did not like or slash hated the gays. Using a derogatory term for them.” He added that many other “outbursts” were “racial.”
Aldrich was “not someone I would have around my gay friends,” Kraus said. He said the alleged shooter never mentioned they were non-binary.
(Source) Peleio Aquiles (talk) 16:48, 29 November 2022 (UTC)
- I put "non-binary" in quotes, because I was quoting the shooter. Korny O'Near (talk) 04:18, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Has nobody here anything better to do than edit-war over a talk page section heading? ■ ∃ Madeline ⇔ ∃ Part of me ; 17:59, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
"Disinformation"
How is LoTT primarily disinformation when all of its content are reposts of other people's videos? Is the "disinformation" you're talking about simply LoTT's summarization of the video via opinion/editorialization? If that's the case, most news websites are guilty of the same thing, as headlines are often exaggerated/misleading to paint a narrative. LoTT is not creating issues out of thin air; at most they are exaggerated summaries of a video that leads to LoTT drawing some conclusion based off opinion. It is by no means a news social media account, another reason why calling it a disinformation account is a stretch. And as said above, even if LoTT is guilty of disinformation, is there genuinely enough for it to be seen as an account that spreads *primarily* disinformation (as it is in the very first sentence of the opening)? 24.156.179.25 (talk) 01:49, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
all of its content are reposts of other people's videos
this is blatantly false. Agree that describing the account as disinformation may be a bit much, though I would still mention it in the first paragraph (something along the lines of "the account has been known to spread disinformation"). Elli (talk | contribs) 01:55, 30 November 2022 (UTC)- Then the rest of its content would be essentially be political/cultural commentary, correct? 24.156.179.25 (talk) 02:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- That Chaya Raichik is a distributor of disinformation is more than adequately sourced in the article. Zaathras (talk) 02:05, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, we have excellent sourcing attesting that she has spread disinformation. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 22:36, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Whether or not she has spread disinformation is not the point. The point is how *much* disinformation has to be spread in order for the account be deemed as a disinformation account; thus putting that in the very first sentence of the article? If it just takes one instance, that could apply to virtually every social media account. There has to be proof her account is used to *frequently* spread disinformation, and based on her tweets, they primarily seem to be sharing of TikToks with her opinionized summary of the video. And you would also need to distinguish a wrong opinion from disinformation; perhaps this article (and many others) conflates the two. 24.156.179.25 (talk) 01:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Asked and answered. Zaathras (talk) 01:53, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Not really actually. Just because articles say LoTT is a disinformation account doesn't mean it automatically is. What is their criteria for calling it so? These articles are often partisan which do sway credibility. There is no basis as to how frequent "disinformation" has to be in order for the account to be considered a disinformation account. If I tweeted 2 + 2 = 5 on twitter does that make my account a disinformation account?
- Also saying LoTT reposts content with "hostile/derogatory commentary" is simply hyperbolic. Most of the time the commentary is more or less neutral. Take this tweet for instance, nothing hostile here. https://twitter.com/libsoftiktok/status/1598034705164926976?s=20&t=js3vQTejA9Hyh49WhqtFhQ
- That sentence in the article makes it seem as if every tweet is of that nature, when in reality, yes while you can see some partisanship/opinionated view from the tweets, they are not outright "inflammatory". As I've reiterated, a simple opinion of others' content is not inherently derogatory. There is little to no actual commentary made by LoTT, instead there are mostly summaries with, again, slight partisanship after some analyzation. 24.156.179.25 (talk) 02:06, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- "Just because articles say LoTT is a disinformation account doesn't mean it automatically is." If the sources are reliable, then as far as Wikipedia is concerned, it does mean that. Everything else you're saying is just your own opinion, which is irrelevant. We follow the sources, period. --Pokelova (talk) 02:15, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- But that's part of the problem. The sources are "reliable" as long as they don't lean right. If they lean left (such as Media Matters) more often than not Wikipedia will find them a-OK to use. Meanwhile sites like the New York Post & Daily Wire are seen as far-right disinformation sources. There is no objective "reliability" when it comes to politics as it is not math or science. Maybe one day NYP & DW will be seen as reliable enough to be used on this website, and then these sources can be used to counter the narrative that LoTT is some hate machine only used to spread false information (rather than opinion). 24.156.179.25 (talk) 02:25, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- "Just because articles say LoTT is a disinformation account doesn't mean it automatically is." If the sources are reliable, then as far as Wikipedia is concerned, it does mean that. Everything else you're saying is just your own opinion, which is irrelevant. We follow the sources, period. --Pokelova (talk) 02:15, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Asked and answered. Zaathras (talk) 01:53, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Whether or not she has spread disinformation is not the point. The point is how *much* disinformation has to be spread in order for the account be deemed as a disinformation account; thus putting that in the very first sentence of the article? If it just takes one instance, that could apply to virtually every social media account. There has to be proof her account is used to *frequently* spread disinformation, and based on her tweets, they primarily seem to be sharing of TikToks with her opinionized summary of the video. And you would also need to distinguish a wrong opinion from disinformation; perhaps this article (and many others) conflates the two. 24.156.179.25 (talk) 01:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, we have excellent sourcing attesting that she has spread disinformation. — Shibbolethink (♔ ♕) 22:36, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- That Chaya Raichik is a distributor of disinformation is more than adequately sourced in the article. Zaathras (talk) 02:05, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
- Then the rest of its content would be essentially be political/cultural commentary, correct? 24.156.179.25 (talk) 02:02, 30 November 2022 (UTC)
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