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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 71.223.22.101 (talk) at 16:42, 15 January 2023 (→‎"modifications": new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Revising article name

RESOLVED
Consensus is that Mormonism is an accurate title for the article. Arguments for changing the name are based on the LDS religion relinquishing the term "Mormon". However, that is a void point because this article is about Mormon sects at large, not just the LDS religion. (non-admin closure) ––FORMALDUDE(talk) 03:35, 19 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The Church has recently put out a statement asking to be referred to as its full name- The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints- instead of the nickname "Mormons" or "Mormonism". In relation to this article, their style guide says: "The term "Mormonism" is inaccurate and should not be used. When describing the combination of doctrine, culture and lifestyle unique to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the term "the restored gospel of Jesus Christ" is accurate and preferred."[1] Would it be okay to proceed with a name change, or would an RfC be required? Audrey (talk) 01:06, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Audrey: Replied here ~Awilley (talk) 02:04, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS Church) has its own Wikipedia page. The LDS Church is actually one of many sects under the larger umbrella of Mormonism, so Mormonism isn’t a specific church, it’s a theology. Both topics are distinctive enough and notable enough in their own right to merit separate articles on Wikipedia. I hope this helps you understand. Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 12:32, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I hope we change the name. This is not about not "understanding." IT has to do with using a slang term that is offensive to many people. I don't think there's any such thing as "Mormonism" outside of Wikipedia. As to the term applying to other churches besides the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you are right, but there is no church that falls under your category of "Mormonism" that does not believe in 3 Nephi 27:8 and D&C 115, which details the proper term. CsikosLo (talk) 17:43, 23 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Churches such as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can call themselves what they want, but the term Mormonism doesn't refer to any particular church, including that one. It's a widely-used term that refers to a broad religious tradition. Many who practice Mormonism aren't even members of any particular church. So regardless of the preference of that organization, I don't see the term Mormonism going out of use any time soon. Besides, even The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, on its website, recognizes that the word Mormonism is "a common term used to describe the teachings and doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints." [2] COGDEN 19:01, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mormonism in the above context is not substantially different from the Latter Day Saint Movement, is frankly archaic, and needs to be merged into it. DavidBailey (talk) 19:17, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Mormonism is a religious tradition and theology flowing from the Book of Mormon and should not be merged with the article on the LDS movement, which is about the various sects that follow it. Jonathunder (talk) 23:16, 9 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, the actual content of the page doesn't reflect that. The article uses the word Mormons frequently, which can be confusing. It talks about their (our, I'm a member) practices and history. The article states "The LDS church believes" on a number of occasions too, and confusingly uses the term "Mormon scripture". I do see this article as a useful place for summarizing the doctrine and then comparing doctrinal differences between different groups in the LDS Restorationalist movement. However, as it stands now the article is confusing and uses the term Mormon in ways that members of those churches would disagree with. Ph03n1x77 (talk) 17:35, 16 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

NPOV: "Mystery cult" introduces negative bias

As a new reader of this article (who is not Mormon / LDS) the term "mystery cult" (in spite of the reliable source and the divergent meanings of the term "cult") appears to be an NPOV violation. Assuming the historian is using "cult" in the non-pejorative sense, the negative connotations among many other readers should still be taken into account. Negativity bias also shows that small negative associations can have outsized impact. Note that this WP article is the top result for "Mormonism" in Google for me, and likely other readers as well.

I think using the entire quote (that includes the words "mystery cult") is OK in context. It's not saying definitively that it is a mystery cult. Good Ol’factory (talk) 08:13, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's important to take into account negativity bias. Even though it is a small part of the quote, the phrase can overwhelm this otherwise neutral information in the introduction. The quote itself is also quite indirect, vague and alludes to different forms Mormonism take (with a great deal of uncertainty).Zukisama (talk) 16:12, 5 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If nobody has any further discussion points on this, I will propose a NPOV alternative.

I have a lot of problems with that sentence. It looks like it was added by User:Ph03n1x77 in a bold rewrite of the Lead in January [3] along with a lot of other problematic changes that went unnoticed. For instance [4] seems to be deleting a lot of sourced material and scrubbing the article of the word "Mormon", introducing weird constructions like "The displaced Mormons fled to Illinois" --> "The displaced church fled to Illinois". (I'm imagining a church version of Baba Yaga's house.) But getting back to the "mystery cult" quote, I think it's problematic to have that extended quote by Sydney E. Ahlstrom taking up valuable real estate in the 2nd paragraph of the Lead. Especially when it's not in the body of the article. And especially because it's not adding a lot of value. You don't start writing an encyclopedia article with "Ho hum we're not really sure if [subject] is this or that or something else, maybe it's all of them." You say concisely what it is. I think some manual rollbacking is needed. ~Awilley (talk) 05:39, 9 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Baba Yaga church movement definitely paints an interesting picture. Thanks for the research. Agreed in full about the equivocating introduction. I looked over a bit of this diff and am still trying to decipher what value was added. I hope to do some more digging / research in the next few days. Thanks for weighing in. Zukisama (talk) 05:38, 17 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Page move from Mormonism to Latter-day Saint belief

Not sure I support this page move. What's the justification/reasoning behind it? @Johnpacklambert. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 18:54, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • The term "Mormonism" is rejected as a descriptor by virtually all groups that make up the Latter-day Saint movement and these groups make up the vast majority of the movement. It is not only not liked, it is explicitly and proactively not liked. This [5] talk highlights how deep this dislike is. Clearly we should not be using a term to describe something that is rejected by those who affirm it. Groups has a right to describe themselves on their own terms, and the old term used for this article did not conform to current usage.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:58, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here [6] as well as here [7]. Here [8] is another article on the subject.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:02, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)

I think "Mormonism" or a merge with "Latter Day Saint movement" would be more accurate. This page contains beliefs outside of the Latter-day Saint religion. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:28, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
You ignore that fact that at one point people argued to continue using the term because of its connection specifically to beliefs of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. You also ignore the fact that a huge percentage of those who accept Joseph Smith as a propher belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This fact is little recognized in Wikipedia. The size differentials mean that we do not conflate the Catholic Church with various break away movements, but somehow it is ok and often encoraged to conflate The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints with various break away movements.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:49, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Do you think that is is perhaps possible that your personal affiliation with this topic is clouding your judgement? ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 19:59, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure where to best discuss this since JPL went and moved like 20 pages without consensus. In any case, I have reverted all of those moves as inappropriate. Maybe we should start (another) thread at MOS:LDS? Though nothing has changed since the last discussion there. ~Awilley (talk) 22:48, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'm open to starting a thread at MOS:LDS, good idea. And thanks for taking the time to revert those moves. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 22:51, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Johnpacklambert: Can you please stop restoring your preferred version of LDS related articles without prior discussion or consensus? This is disruptive editing behavior and you clearly know better, given your experience. Start a new thread and make your arguments at MOS:LDS, please. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 23:36, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Mormon" as a "depreciated" term

The word depreciated has two meanings:

  1. diminish in value over a period of time.
  2. disparage or belittle (something).

The first is accurate, the second is not. I suggest redoing this edit with a more accurate word like "relinquish" which means voluntarily cease to keep or claim; give up. I also do not think it's necessary to remove all the mentions of Mormon throughout this article. ––𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲 talk 19:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think I pinged everyone, but in case others are watching who haven't contributed: Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Topic_Ban_for_Johnpacklambert. I'm not watching this page, so please ping me if needed. Star Mississippi 16:00, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with those that have stated that the title and the word "Mormon" are inaccurate. The official name is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Any personal opinions cannot change that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.38.62.90 (talk) 18:25, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is only one of the Mormon denominations, and is not particularly relevant in the article about the wider religious movement. Dimadick (talk) 08:41, 16 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education assignment: Linguistics in the Digital Age

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 August 2022 and 7 December 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Abby Crandall (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Abby Crandall (talk) 00:47, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"modifications"

It's known as "further revelation" from what I know 71.223.22.101 (talk) 16:42, 15 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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