Jump to content

Talk:Little Jack Horner

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 151.36.154.191 (talk) at 12:07, 18 February 2023 (→‎Unfair block of the article.: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Color me skeptical

The claim that this rhyme is about a real person named Horner--presented here as fact--strikes me as something that very much needs a cite from a reputable source. It has the air of a not-so-very-old urban legend, like the (false) claim that Ring Around the Rosie is about the Black Death.

The many joke versions of the poem need citation too--without some indication that these parodies are notable, they should just go. Nareek 05:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a website giving the "real person" theory:

Beware, there is a horrible pop-up on that page. Ogg 19:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jacob Horner

Have added a reference to Jacob Horner, the protagonist of John Barth's second book, The End of the Road. --Teetotaler

little jack horner sat in the corner eating a christmas pie he stuck in his phumb and pulled out a plumb and said what a good boy am i —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.17.35 (talk) 20:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unencyclopaedic allusions

I repeat Nareek's remark above: The many joke versions of the poem need citation too--without some indication that these parodies are notable, they should just go.

Mere allusion, whether by writers of reputation or Tin-Pan-Alley lyricists, do not extend our knowledge of the rhyme or demonstrate a new creative use and have no place in an encyclopaedia. Since they do not meet the WP:IINFO guidelines on indiscriminate collection of information, they have been purged from this article and further repetitions will be deleted too. The reference to Lord Byron's allusion may be taken to cover every unnoteworthy use since then. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 10:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

With you on that one.--SabreBD (talk) 11:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Little Jack Horner. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 21:31, 3 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Opportunism

This article doesn't say anything about how a boy pulling out a plum from his Christmas pie equates to opportunism. I know there is a metaphor of the "plum assignment," but that doesn't appear here. 67.208.31.164 (talk) 17:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Blockhaj is trying to force through an "In popular culture" subsection in ways that transgress all kinds of editorial guidance:

  1. Since a nursery rhyme is already part of popular culture, such a title is inappropriate
  2. There needs to be a reliable source that says that the character in the film is meant to be a grown-up version of the nursery rhyme character. Another WP article is not considered reliable because anyone can edit here
  3. Details of who voices the character, and other details from the film, are definitely WP:OFFTOPIC in an article which is supposed to be only about the nursery rhyme
  4. The consequent length of the entry gives WP:UNDUE weight to the film
  5. The proper procedure where there is a difference of opinion over editorial appropriateness is to discuss the matter here, not to argue the case as part of the edit summary

Blockhaj has been editing on WP since 2018 and really should be acquainted with editorial guidelines by now. Sweetpool50 (talk) 21:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your framing of this as @Blockhaj "trying to force through" some text seems a tad stong: so far as I can see, Blockhaj has simply reverted you on one occasion, with a reasoned revert. That said, I agree that the proposed subsection is improper, as it quite clearly fails MOS:CULTURALREFS. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks MichaelMaggs. What Blockhaj had done in the way of starting an edit war was to copy and paste FishandChipper's reverted edit from 24 January. Sweetpool50 (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How about changing it to "Adaptations" then? Other characters like Puss in Boots, Goldilocks and the Three Bears, Humpty Dumpty etc all mention the films, with Humpty Dumpty being an especially poignant example for also being a nursery rhyme. I think this is just random pettyness for no reason and will be reinstating the section with the new title. FishandChipper 🐟🍟 18:48, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You make no attempt to address infringement of the guidelines listed above, however the section might be retitled. Another guideline mentions that "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" such as the trivia you wish to insert. At the most, a very brief mention of the film character might be acceptable, if you can provide a reliable source to substantiate that there is a connection to the nursery rhyme. Please be aware that WP:Edit warring against guidelines is not a good idea. Sweetpool50 (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
But this isn't indiscriminate, if Horner was simply a minor character or a cameo in the movie then sure you could make that argument but he is clearly one of if not the main antagonist of the movie. Also it's bad practice to tell others to not edit war when you start the edit war lmao FishandChipper 🐟🍟 20:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think the pop culture bit is warranted. We normally look for WP:SECONDARY confirmation that the media have been looking at the issue, to show that the issue is important to the topic. I'm seeing such confirmation at the Collider article which is clearly about the character depicted in the rhyme. This is not a case where the character is merely listed somewhere. Binksternet (talk) 20:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FYI, I spend a lot of time (a LOT) removing poorly supported pop culture. That's not what I'm seeing here! The disputed pop culture bit is definitely supported by an uninvolved media source. It should stay in. Binksternet (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you! All of Sweetpool's arguments seem to be for a completely different article. FishandChipper 🐟🍟 21:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well spotted, Binksternet, you're an example to other editors. That article has exactly what is needed with its focus on the nursery rhyme and the continuation in character. Sweetpool50 (talk) 09:50, 29 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ummm yeah sweetie, but sorry you havent seen the film but they are absolutely a character b ased On The Film because They even say the Rhyme in the Film. 2600:8801:1389:9800:99A5:5165:C90:3384 (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative histories

It seems that the new section has attracted more disruptive edits than the article has ever known. In order to miminimise this, I'd like to propose a rewrite to Binksternet and FishandChipper which focuses mainly on character change rather than details of the film itself. To begin with, Horner's appearance in the film clearly belongs in the "Alternative histories" section of the article as a later derivative of the nursery rhyme character. There it might read, with appropriate sourcing, as a separate paragraph that sets Horner's appearance in a new context: "In 2022, an adult version of the character appears as a major antagonist in the Universal Pictures/DreamWorks Animation movie Puss in Boots: The Last Wish.<ref 34> In this he has grown up to be the evil owner of his own pie-selling business and calls himself "Big" Jack Horner, in full reaction to his childhood reputation in the nursery rhyme.<ref 35> The link to the film provides all the other details an interested reader might require without straying into WP:UNDUE emphasis. Would this be an acceptable solution? Sweetpool50 (talk) 11:28, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, in principle, absolutely, assuming the sources are OK. The disruption is coming from editors who want to turn this into another article about the film, and your suggestion properly returns the focus to the derivative version of the original character. MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unfair block of the article.

Why my edit on the article has been reverted and the article has been even protected? There was no disruptive vandalism, just a case of a user confusing one for another, people who come to edit an article for the first time cannot be considered disruptive vandals. Jack Horner is the main antagonist, not a major antagonist in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. 151.36.154.191 (talk) 12:07, 18 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Little_Jack_Horner&oldid=1140099167"