Talk:Little Jack Horner
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Color me skeptical
The claim that this rhyme is about a real person named Horner--presented here as fact--strikes me as something that very much needs a cite from a reputable source. It has the air of a not-so-very-old urban legend, like the (false) claim that Ring Around the Rosie is about the Black Death.
The many joke versions of the poem need citation too--without some indication that these parodies are notable, they should just go. Nareek 05:08, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a website giving the "real person" theory:
Beware, there is a horrible pop-up on that page. Ogg 19:15, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Jacob Horner
Have added a reference to Jacob Horner, the protagonist of John Barth's second book, The End of the Road. --Teetotaler
little jack horner sat in the corner eating a christmas pie he stuck in his phumb and pulled out a plumb and said what a good boy am i —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.17.35 (talk) 20:13, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
Unencyclopaedic allusions
I repeat Nareek's remark above: The many joke versions of the poem need citation too--without some indication that these parodies are notable, they should just go.
Mere allusion, whether by writers of reputation or Tin-Pan-Alley lyricists, do not extend our knowledge of the rhyme or demonstrate a new creative use and have no place in an encyclopaedia. Since they do not meet the WP:IINFO guidelines on indiscriminate collection of information, they have been purged from this article and further repetitions will be deleted too. The reference to Lord Byron's allusion may be taken to cover every unnoteworthy use since then. Mzilikazi1939 (talk) 10:32, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- With you on that one.--SabreBD (talk) 11:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
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Opportunism
This article doesn't say anything about how a boy pulling out a plum from his Christmas pie equates to opportunism. I know there is a metaphor of the "plum assignment," but that doesn't appear here. 67.208.31.164 (talk) 17:54, 12 December 2022 (UTC)
Popular culture
Blockhaj is trying to force through an "In popular culture" subsection in ways that transgress all kinds of editorial guidance:
- Since a nursery rhyme is already part of popular culture, such a title is inappropriate
- There needs to be a reliable source that says that the character in the film is meant to be a grown-up version of the nursery rhyme character. Another WP article is not considered reliable because anyone can edit here
- Details of who voices the character, and other details from the film, are definitely WP:OFFTOPIC in an article which is supposed to be only about the nursery rhyme
- The consequent length of the entry gives WP:UNDUE weight to the film
- The proper procedure where there is a difference of opinion over editorial appropriateness is to discuss the matter here, not to argue the case as part of the edit summary
Blockhaj has been editing on WP since 2018 and really should be acquainted with editorial guidelines by now. Sweetpool50 (talk) 21:50, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- Your framing of this as @Blockhaj "trying to force through" some text seems a tad stong: so far as I can see, Blockhaj has simply reverted you on one occasion, with a reasoned revert. That said, I agree that the proposed subsection is improper, as it quite clearly fails MOS:CULTURALREFS. MichaelMaggs (talk) 22:10, 26 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks MichaelMaggs. What Blockhaj had done in the way of starting an edit war was to copy and paste FishandChipper's reverted edit from 24 January. Sweetpool50 (talk) 00:02, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
- How about changing it to "Adaptations" then? Other characters like Puss in Boots, Goldilocks and the Three Bears, Humpty Dumpty etc all mention the films, with Humpty Dumpty being an especially poignant example for also being a nursery rhyme. I think this is just random pettyness for no reason and will be reinstating the section with the new title. FishandChipper 🐟🍟 18:48, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- You make no attempt to address infringement of the guidelines listed above, however the section might be retitled. Another guideline mentions that "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" such as the trivia you wish to insert. At the most, a very brief mention of the film character might be acceptable, if you can provide a reliable source to substantiate that there is a connection to the nursery rhyme. Please be aware that WP:Edit warring against guidelines is not a good idea. Sweetpool50 (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- But this isn't indiscriminate, if Horner was simply a minor character or a cameo in the movie then sure you could make that argument but he is clearly one of if not the main antagonist of the movie. Also it's bad practice to tell others to not edit war when you start the edit war lmao FishandChipper 🐟🍟 20:37, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- You make no attempt to address infringement of the guidelines listed above, however the section might be retitled. Another guideline mentions that "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" such as the trivia you wish to insert. At the most, a very brief mention of the film character might be acceptable, if you can provide a reliable source to substantiate that there is a connection to the nursery rhyme. Please be aware that WP:Edit warring against guidelines is not a good idea. Sweetpool50 (talk) 19:57, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- I think the pop culture bit is warranted. We normally look for WP:SECONDARY confirmation that the media have been looking at the issue, to show that the issue is important to the topic. I'm seeing such confirmation at the Collider article which is clearly about the character depicted in the rhyme. This is not a case where the character is merely listed somewhere. Binksternet (talk) 20:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- FYI, I spend a lot of time (a LOT) removing poorly supported pop culture. That's not what I'm seeing here! The disputed pop culture bit is definitely supported by an uninvolved media source. It should stay in. Binksternet (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Thank you! All of Sweetpool's arguments seem to be for a completely different article. FishandChipper 🐟🍟 21:20, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Well spotted, Binksternet, you're an example to other editors. That article has exactly what is needed with its focus on the nursery rhyme and the continuation in character. Sweetpool50 (talk) 09:50, 29 January 2023 (UTC)
- FYI, I spend a lot of time (a LOT) removing poorly supported pop culture. That's not what I'm seeing here! The disputed pop culture bit is definitely supported by an uninvolved media source. It should stay in. Binksternet (talk) 21:15, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ummm yeah sweetie, but sorry you havent seen the film but they are absolutely a character b ased On The Film because They even say the Rhyme in the Film. 2600:8801:1389:9800:99A5:5165:C90:3384 (talk) 17:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)
Alternative histories
It seems that the new section has attracted more disruptive edits than the article has ever known. In order to miminimise this, I'd like to propose a rewrite to Binksternet and FishandChipper which focuses mainly on character change rather than details of the film itself. To begin with, Horner's appearance in the film clearly belongs in the "Alternative histories" section of the article as a later derivative of the nursery rhyme character. There it might read, with appropriate sourcing, as a separate paragraph that sets Horner's appearance in a new context: "In 2022, an adult version of the character appears as a major antagonist in the Universal Pictures/DreamWorks Animation movie Puss in Boots: The Last Wish.<ref 34> In this he has grown up to be the evil owner of his own pie-selling business and calls himself "Big" Jack Horner, in full reaction to his childhood reputation in the nursery rhyme.<ref 35> The link to the film provides all the other details an interested reader might require without straying into WP:UNDUE emphasis. Would this be an acceptable solution? Sweetpool50 (talk) 11:28, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
- Yes, in principle, absolutely, assuming the sources are OK. The disruption is coming from editors who want to turn this into another article about the film, and your suggestion properly returns the focus to the derivative version of the original character. MichaelMaggs (talk) 11:46, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
Unfair block of the article.
Why my edit on the article has been reverted and the article has been even protected? There was no disruptive vandalism, just a case of a user confusing one for another, people who come to edit an article for the first time cannot be considered disruptive vandals. Jack Horner is the main antagonist, not a major antagonist in Puss in Boots: The Last Wish. 151.36.154.191 (talk) 12:07, 18 February 2023 (UTC)
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