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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ErnestKrause (talk | contribs) at 00:45, 19 May 2023 (→‎Military leaders: re). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The heading above is a link to the RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine, closed 30 December 2022.

See also earlier RfCs: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022; and, Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022. All RfCs were closed with "no consensus". In the most recent RfC, the closer made the following statement:

Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Military leaders

There’s no longer any excuse. ISW has written an article on the notable subject of Russian leadership in this conflict, and even included a handy graph.[1] This should be included in the article as soon as someone can incorporate it, and into the infobox immediately as it’s a key aspect of this subject.  —Michael Z. 23:38, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The ISW chart definitely proves this is “a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text” (MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE).  —Michael Z. 23:40, 1 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Left to right: Aleksandr Dvornikov (Commander of Field Operations in 2022), Sergey Shoigu (Defense Minister) and Valery Gerasimov assigned in 2023 after Dvornikov.
Images added. Update with prominent names in Michael's list as needed. ErnestKrause (talk) 21:15, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The gallery to the right has no relationship to the cited graphic: 1) Alexander Dvornikov is mentioned as a speculative theatre commander, not a confirmed one; 2) Shoigu isn't mentioned anywhere, it should be Surovikin; 3) speculated threate commander Zhidko is ignored; 4) the fact of the theatre commander being unknown (even speculatively) from the day of the invasion to April 8th is omitted; 5) Gerasimov took the post from Surovikin not from Dvornikov, and Surovikin took the post from (speculated) Zhidko. Is a different source being consulted for the gallery? Mr rnddude (talk) 21:09, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Forgot to mention that Surovikin took the post on October 8th, 2022, not in 2023, as stated in the caption. Mr rnddude (talk) 21:13, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. The point that the subject is notable and belongs in the article is still supported. Please go ahead and collect the sources to support the best version.  —Michael Z. 05:00, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I don’t know how to respond. The gallery was appended by someone else and I have nothing to do with it. Dvornikov is mentioned where and what has that to do with my comment? Etcetera.  —Michael Z. 05:28, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The assertion: that The ISW chart definitely proves this is “a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text”, is a statement made without substance. Nothing is proven. Rather, it is belied by the statement: This should be included in the article as soon as someone can incorporate it. For information, the ISW article can be seen here. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:36, 2 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Right now, in the infobox's "leaders" parameter we've got a serious case of great man theory going on with only Vladimir vs. Volodymyr.
Can anyone recap any previous discussions that were held regarding that line of the infobox?
I have no objection to fleshing it out, although it would probably generate further controversy on who should and should not be included 😏 RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 03:29, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
RadioactiveBoulevardier, the discussions relate to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and that entries to the infobox should be supported by the article and show how the leaders reported are key and significant. The infobox has only Vladimir and Volodymyr because the article as written doesn't really mention others except in passing or as a talking head (x announced) that would show any others are significant. The infobox is a reflection of the article. If this is a serious case of great man theory, then that is a criticism of the article and not the infobox. Dropping in a name in the infobox (without any other context because that is all it is) doesn't fix the problem. It doesn't tell us why they were important or what they did that was significant, remembering that articles should to stand alone. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The great man reference was tongue-in-cheek.
About determining significance, I'd say people like Syrskyi and Zaluzhnyi on the Ukrainian side, and Shoigu, Gerasimov, and Prigozhin on the Russian side, are self-evidently important enough. Usually military infoboxes have several top leaders listed. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 06:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
RadioactiveBoulevardier, how does a reader know who any of those you have listed are in consequence of reading the article, let alone why they are key or significant to the invasion? Cinderella157 (talk) 06:57, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm…well…they definitely played important roles… RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 07:37, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well then, the article should explain how and why their role was important. Your great man theory may have been tongue-in-cheek but the truest things are often said in jest. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't seem out of the question to add actions and decisions made by specific commanders that have had notable impacts on the war, the sources exist, here is one on Valerii Zaluzhnyi for example. If such content is added, it would be logical to include more people in the infobox. TylerBurden (talk) 09:01, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Last year there was an image of Putin seated next to General Shoigu in the article, which has been since removed. It looks like Archive #12 from this Talk page has one of the previous discussions about the military command images. ErnestKrause (talk) 14:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion on inclusion was deadlocked because some insisted that only leaders discussed in the article can be included, specifically because the military chain of command was claimed not to be “key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text” as defined in MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. However an RFC at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#RfC about exceptions to WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE and commanders/leaders in Template:Infobox military conflict did not find consensus.
The civilian supreme C-in-C’s (VVP and VZ) are already present.
What’s most important for this war is the supreme commanders of forces, because of the contrast and effect. Ukraine’s military C-in-C of the Armed Forces, Valerii Zaluzhnyi, and commander of Ground Forces Oleksandr Syrskyi have been constants, and are credited with the competence that has resulted in Ukrainian success shocking the world. In contrast, Russian forces started without a supreme commander and five uncoordinated military districts. After initial failures, Putin has pushed various officers through a revolving door based on his whims and favours and fear of any “war hero” accumulating political clout (cf. Stalin and Zhukov), most of them retaining other commands, to the point that the ISW resorted to a timeline chart to represent its understanding of it.[2]
Also important are the military C-in-C’s (Zaluzhnyi’s counterpart Valerii Gerasimov) and defence ministers (Sergei Shoigu and Oleksii Reznikov).  —Michael Z. 20:11, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Much of what has been written above could be incorporated into the article with appropriate sources. It belies the assertion that commanders fall to the exception under WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. As I stated above, simply adding names to the infobox tells us nothing about how or why those named are key or significant - unless that is supported by the body of the article. And a WP article is written to stand alone. This particular point was not raised in the RfC linked. On the other hand, the type of information exampled as an exception at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE such as physical properties of chemicals or language classification codes do stand alone as information. Commanders clearly does not fall to the spirit and intend of the exception at WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. The closer of the RfC stated: maybe everyone can take what they've learned so far, and if wanted, start a new discussion. Do we? Cinderella157 (talk) 01:59, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The RFC clearly determined that that there is no consensus that that is “clearly.”  —Michael Z. 13:50, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is I think the 3rd Talk page discussion of this with the last one in Archive 12. At the diplomatic level this has been Putin versus Zelensky, with Shoigu occasionally coming forward to support Putin. There was a photo of Putin with Shoigu in this article last year which was deleted and I'm not really seeing a difficulty if Michael would like to bring it back. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:48, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And none of it is about images. If you want to discuss adding photos of leaders, please start an actual discussion on the topic. Continually making tangential comments about photos in discussions about the infobox is unproductive and disruptive.  —Michael Z. 19:33, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Opposed, to this addition to the Infobox as fully inappropriate. The current article does not support, as Cinderalla indicates above, the level of discussion to support this addition. Mzajac your comment on what is productive/unproductive for this Talk page seems to be off-base and I'll ask you to retract or strike that comment. You are now re-hashing your viewpoint on this issue of 'military commanders' a third time on the Talk page, without any apparent effect on editors, as you have done in Archive 11 here [3] and Archive 12 here [4]. I'm opposed to your request to add this information to the Infobox based on my support for Cinderella's comments above. ErnestKrause (talk) 20:45, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Just post it in a discussion with an appropriate heading, for crying out loud.  —Michael Z. 02:05, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    What..? I am also quite confused why you are bringing up the image, unless you are implying someone sitting next to Putin in an image on the article is enough to include them as a commander in the infobox that doesn't seem very relevant to the discussion, and wildly contradicts Cindarella's points above about establishing notability in the article body that you say you agree with.. TylerBurden (talk) 11:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm opposed to the inclusion of Mzajac's material in the Infobox, as stated by Cinderella above: "...simply adding names to the infobox tells us nothing about how or why those named are key or significant". I'm supporting Cinderella on this. ErnestKrause (talk) 15:09, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s nonsense. It is perfectly clear why the commander of a campaign is key and significant to the subject of the campaign. Furthermore, the very data itself conveys key and significant facts about the campaign’s conduct:[5]
This is clear, visually organized, and easily understood in the infobox, key and significant information that would be lost on anyone that didn’t read the whole article or zero in and read the paragraphs where it is described, if it even is. In fact, it is precisely “a piece of key specialised information is difficult to integrate into the body text,” that belongs in the infobox per INFOBOXPURPOSE.  —Michael Z. 15:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
While I'm a random reader on phone, I do support that point, and the info box Michael Z shows seems quite clear at:
- showing who is the current commander
- showing that rotation happens /had happened on the Russian side, which seems to be a key information
-with source
- while being quite short 5.51.183.7 (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I would oppose that specific formatting as 1) outside the scope of the consensus indicated by other examples of conflict infoboxes 2) a textbook example of the kind of insidious under-the radar POV (subconscious/good-faith or otherwise) that the Encyclopedia is supposed to avoid. RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 18:34, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Huh? While it’s an example of the type of information, and not a format, it is very close to what we have in Russo-Ukrainian War and War in Donbas (2014–2022).
Insidious? What the heck? Numerous articles talk about the comparative effect of Putin’s bungling, politically motivated appointment of leaders vs Ukraine’s professionalism. This lays it out graphically and clearly. I can find some sources and bring them here if you don’t know about this.  —Michael Z. 20:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Starting with the ISW article I cited but failed to link to: Russian Offensive Campaign Assessment, April 30, 2023, which contains the above-mentioned chart mean to present this key specialized information:
ISW is publishing a special edition campaign assessment today, April 30. This report details changes in the Russian military command since Russia began its full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Russian President Vladimir Putin’s decision to invade Ukraine without a clear and doctrinal command structure and his reluctance to appoint an overall theater commander have had lasting effects on the structure of the Russian command in Ukraine. Putin’s regular command changes have led to an increasingly factionalized Russian military and disorganized command structures that are degrading the Russian military’s ability to conduct a cohesive campaign in Ukraine. Factions are not a phenomenon particular to the Russian military, although their current dynamics within the Russian military are shaping decision making to an unusual degree.
 —Michael Z. 21:04, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is stopping anybody from adding such material to the body of the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:42, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support adding the commanders to the infobox. Haven’t really seen a reason that makes sense not to have them there. HappyWith (talk) 15:12, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How is a bare name in an infobox useful if the article does not support it by indicating how or why that person was key or significant, remembering that an article should be written to stand alone? Cinderella157 (talk) 23:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Looking back at @Michael Z.’s OP, it’s not totally apparent what he meant.
So I’d ask him to restate his proposal in unambiguous terms in order to make it clear what we’re actually discussing.
If someone (especially an uninvolved editor from the larger extended-confirmed community) were to simply add a few leaders to the infobox (and on other topics I’ve barged in blindly and done that sort of thing once or twice without reading the talk page), it might not even get reverted.
But it seems like Michael is proposing that we include something like ISW’s chart of the various Russian theater commanders in the infobox. This would run counter to MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE so obviously that I’m a little surprised that such an experienced Wikipedian would suggest such a thing, much less multiple times.
RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk) 18:50, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m simply proposing that some military commander be included in the infobox, and want to find consensus to do it and which ones to include.
I mentioned the chart only as an example that military commanders are “key specialised information” to counter perennial assertions that INFOBOXPURPOSE prohibits their inclusion unless every single one is discussed in the article.  —Michael Z. 20:52, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The chart is part of an article sixteen pages long in total (when viewed as a pdf) and occupies about one-third of a page in the article. How does it then example that this is key specialised information making it an exception to INFOBOXPURPOSE and how is a bare name in an infobox useful if the article does not support it by indicating how or why that person was key or significant, remembering that an article should be written to stand alone? The fact that a bare name does not stand alone without further information is the reason why this does not fall to the exception of key specialised information at INFOBOXPURPOSE. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly the time spent going back and forth here could have been used to just add the notable commanders and their actions to the body, that would satisfy the criteria of the MOS with establishing content in the body for inclusion in the infobox, which seems to be the only push back to adding more people. TylerBurden (talk) 15:45, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly a fiftieth of the time could have been used adding them to the infobox.  —Michael Z. 17:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but with the amount of bickering about Wikipedia infoboxes across the whole site I think it makes sense to establish some content in the body so the more MOS centric type of editors aren't going to be constantly removing the content, then again it's not like it is an absolute must on a website that literally has WP:IGNORE all rules if they get in the way of improvement. Personally I wouldn't have anything against adding someone like Zaluzhny, who is already mentioned on the article as a "major Ukrainian commander during the war".
TylerBurden (talk) 18:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, okay, I did that.  —Michael Z. 22:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good call with a dedicated subsection, was thinking that might be the way to go as well when it proved a bit more difficult than expected to find where it would be best to mention Zaluzhny. TylerBurden (talk) 15:27, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
More can be added. Needs something about Zelenskyy’s “not a ride” and international diplomacy. Could include defence and foreign ministers, Syrskyi, and Russian MD/direction commanders, Prigozhin and Kadyrov. With a bit more detail on their significance, actions, and interaction, it might logically become “Command and conduct.”  —Michael Z. 18:45, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That’s not exactly true. But I did include more material (dates) and logical formatting (bullets showing hierarchy) than just bare names, all consistent with other related articles as I pointed out above, which you removed. You’re arguing against your “improvements,” not my proposal.  —Michael Z. 18:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The template doc tells us to add just bare names. Adding more is just a case of trying to write the article in the infobox, which INFOBOXPURPOSE tells us not to. My position has always been, improve the article and the infobox will follow. I has been a spurious claim to assert that such material cannot be incorporated into the article [easily]. Even if the present material is little more than a passing mention, it is a foundation than can be built upon. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also not true. The docs do not tell us to add just bare names. See precedents in Russo-Ukrainian War and War in Donbas (2014–2022).
Are you in the habit of drowning a comment with a string of disinformational responses? This thread isn’t even discussing changes, apparently just you objecting to my explanation of my intent to RadioactiveBoulevardier. NOTCHAT.  —Michael Z. 01:15, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Michael, your comment was indented one in from mine. By indenting conventions, your comment was clearly intended for me and it is quite reasonable for me to reply. The template parameter of commander is for the names of commanders/leaders. Ranks and position titles should be omitted. In the context of this discussion and all of the material to the infobox, it is quite reasonable to paraphrase this as "bare names". {{KIA}} and {{POW}} templates are not at issue. WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS/WP:OTHERCONTENT is only valid if otherstuff represents best practice. WP does not work on the principle of precedent. I view your rhetorical question as an aspersion of misconduct and the balance of your post to have significant inaccuracies. You might consider redacting it? Cinderella157 (talk) 08:22, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Reasonable to reinterpret it meaning “bare names” when it doesn’t say or imply “bare names”? Why don’t you get consensus to update the docs to say “bare names”? Until then, I hope you can agree to disagree.
My indentation is correct. It follows back to my reply to RadioactiveBoulevardier. I didn’t imply malicious misconduct. But I do wonder whether your modus operandi in discussions is all you know or whether you consciously believe it works for you.
Anyway, you entered this thread with a couple of questions. I assume you’re now as satisfied as can be with the response and we can put this to rest.  —Michael Z. 22:27, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed with Michael Z - it doesn’t say that in either the infobox docs or WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. HappyWith (talk) 01:42, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm gonna WP:BOLDly add back the flags in the infobox for now, given precedents at countless articles like War in Donbas and Iraq War. If an editor objects, let's discuss it in a separate talk section given that this one is already very long and cluttered. HappyWith (talk) 02:15, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Indenting the subordinates[6] conveys the same thing at least as clearly (might work without bullets). Just flags[7] is noisier: decoration without hierarchy.  —Michael Z. 03:40, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The flags weren't added back in, they weren't extant to begin with. The material that was removed were the dates, which they should remain removed. The dates provided are specific to the commanders holding the post of 'overall theatre commander', but this suggests they held no position of command both prior to and after that time. That is misleading, albeit unintentionally so. Dvornikov, for example, was the commander of the southern district from the onset of the invasion and removed from the post in late July. So listing him as a commander from (8 Apr–26 May) is plain error. Mr rnddude (talk) 03:59, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As both Michael and Mr rnddude confirm, flags were not included with the commanders recently added. Per MOS:INFOBOXFLAG, flag icons are acceptable in this infobox to differentiate information when there are co-belligerents. This can be done by adding icons against each particular entry of a commander or by grouping commanders under single icons. Both options serve the purpose but I do agree with Michael that flags against each name is noisier. Cinderella157 (talk) 08:43, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Cinderella, can anything be done about the very large number of flag icons in that part of the Infobox; it seems like too many of them. Also, it might be useful to make a distinction between the active ones and the inactive commanders. Note that on the WWII page that none of the Generals, not Eisenhower and not MacArthur, are listed in the analogous section of the Infobox. ErnestKrause (talk) 00:45, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Picture with missing windows

"Damage to a residential building in Zaporizhzhia following an airstrike on 9 October 2022. Putin has been labeled a war criminal by international experts. National Police of Ukraine - https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=434181438851892&set=pcb.434184062184963 (the whole post) 9-storey residential building in Zaporizhzhia after Russian rocket attack on the city in the night on 9 October 2022" - there is no know weapon who would be able to strip a large building of all windows (including frames) - even not a nuclear. Sorry this seems to be a standard demolition of an old building ... And what is a "international expert" ? (did ALL international experts label Putin as a war criminal ? How many: less than 50% - or a qualified minority ?) I am against any violence - but also against any propaganda and misuse of Wikipedia for hybrid warfare :( 188.167.251.60 (talk) 21:41, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You are not qualified to make judgments about what can or cannot be done to a building by an explosion, that would be WP:OR. Considering that the only edit you have made on Wikipedia is this comment, I'm pretty sure the person trying to conduct hybrid warfare is yourself, just saying. Galebazz (talk) 08:47, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Your statement is silly, and a very transparent POV attempt. HammerFilmFan (talk) 12:08, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"Russian invasion of Ukraine"

Nothing useful coming out of this, though a good ROI from what might have been a troll IP. — Czello (music) 12:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Since there is a risk that "Russian invasion of Ukraine" could be considered to be pushing an anti-Russian point of view, might not 'Russian/Ukrainian conflict' seem more to the point/less problematic? For might not any impression what Wikipedia is supporting a pro-US undermine it as a world-wide media outlet? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.149.166.158 (talk) 07:59, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See United States invasion of Panama and United States invasion of Grenada, that are so named to be, in fact, factual. This isn't about being pro-US, it's about being factual and using the same language that sources use. There is no care for being "less problematic", only for being accurate Galebazz (talk) 08:42, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, as Russia invaded Ukraine. That is the objective fact of the matter, and is the most neutral description of the event. There is another article in Russo-Ukrainian War that discusses the broader conflict, however. — Czello (music) 08:44, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What planet do you live on where Russia didn't invade Ukraine? An armed force entering a country with the intent to subjugate or occupy it is the literal definition of an invasion, to call it anything else would be anything but neutral. TylerBurden (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe, but as Russia did invade it seems to me we should ignore such silliness. Slatersteven (talk) 12:04, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I can show you many articles that describe invasion or occupation by the United States that intend to be factual . United States occupation of Nicaragua, 2003 invasion of Iraq, Bay of Pigs Invasion, United States occupation of Haiti, etc. We can also find articles like Russian conquest of Siberia, Russian conquest of Central Asia, Russian invasion of Manchuria, Russian invasion of East Prussia (1914), Russian invasion of Afghanistan. The language is neutral; the only difference is that the timing of these events happen to be contemporary. 70.22.139.70 (talk) 19:42, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Russia has invaded Ukraine. I don't understand how stating this is controversial when it's a simple statement of fact. I just find it incredibly bizarre to describe this as pro-US, when this has nothing to do with the US. Just baffled by this proposal. BeŻet (talk) 10:28, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever risk is at an acceptable level.  —Michael Z. 23:21, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
No, it would not. This is getting tiresome, actually. HammerFilmFan (talk) 12:07, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Foreign Involvement Single Source False Claims

There is a claim on the main page of this article under "Foreign Involvement," of course claiming increased CIA/SOF presence in Ukraine, but also falsely claiming the article they link to says those forces are aiding Ukrainian forces. Here is the quote on Wikipedia: "...the United States has significantly increased the secret involvement of special operations military and CIA operatives in support of Ukrainian forces since the beginning of the invasion." Now here's the Intercept quote (https://theintercept.com/2022/10/05/russia-ukraine-putin-cia/, from *James Risen & Ken Klippenstein* mind you, "There is a much larger presence of both CIA and U.S. special operations personnel and resources in Ukraine than there were at the time of the Russian invasion in February, several current and former intelligence officials told The Intercept." There is no indication that those CIA/SOF personnel, assuming this Intercept reporting to be accurate , are assisting Ukrainian forces. In fact, it's been extensively reported those SOF personnel are providing security for the US embassy in Kyiv. The CIA is an intelligence gathering organization first and foremost, so why exactly is this Wikipedia article falsely claiming and emphasizing alleged US intelligence community involvement in the *fighting* in Ukraine? So much inherent bias. There is other reporting detailing extensive European security service involvement on Russian territory, but that is for some reason not emphasized... 2600:1700:FC80:1CC0:CFB:FC01:51:BF7D (talk) 00:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yep. Thanks for catching this. I’m gonna look into it more carefully later, but I’ll remove the most egregious parts now. HappyWith (talk) 01:46, 18 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Add Iran as supporter of russia!

Iran really has to be added as a supporter of russia.There are plenty of sources for this including iranian military personell on ukrainian soil, drone deliveries, munitions deliveries and so on. I am not a wikipedian, so I dont have the knpwledge of how to add this, but someone has to do so. 2A02:1406:62:5816:E021:CC11:7CA3:3625 (talk) 22:53, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I’ve argued for this in the past, but changed my mind. Iran is not a belligerent in this war. It is not at war with Ukraine. There is no invasion or attacks into Ukraine from Iran’s territory.  —Michael Z. 23:20, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well, while that is true, i believe there is plenty of precedent on other wikipedia articles which would make it viable to place Iran as a supporter alongside Belarus. Just like the Americans have been listed as supporters in plenty of conflicts where there were no american boots on the ground. 2A02:1406:62:5816:1DE:9BFD:F86A:4B78 (talk) 12:37, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
See talk the archives, no new arguments have been made, so the old objections remain. Slatersteven (talk) 12:39, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The realities in Russia’s war in Ukraine show that those precedents are wrong. Supporters that aren’t belligerents cannot with integrity be listed under the “Belligerents” heading. The correct action is to consider adding a separate “Supporters” row to the infobox, in an appropriate forum.  —Michael Z. 13:30, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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