Talk:Yevgeny Prigozhin

TRMS

Rachel Maddow covered the Internet Research Agency on 6 September 2017. In the YouTube excerpt, she mentioned the IRA lead as a close tie of Putin's, without being brave/confident enough to put forward his name (at least, not that I noticed).

The transcript might show up here at some point: The Rachel Maddow Show Transcripts — MaxEnt 15:27, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Concord Management

I removed the section about Concord Management because the first paragraph did not have a Reliable source. The second paragraph had a source, but that website said nothing about Concord Management. Thanks! BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 19:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Ethnic background

I don't think Prigozhin's ethnic background should be included in this article unless it becomes a matter of comment in more than one WP:Reliable source. Thanks to all. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 22:12, 22 February 2018 (UTC)

Aha! Just as I thought. 107.77.230.175 (talk) 17:55, 28 February 2018 (UTC)JaneDoe

Yes, of course it should not, and especially like this [1]. But the number of sources does not matter. Why it is important? The cited source does not say it. My very best wishes (talk) 19:45, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Elaborate why ethnic background should not be included on this one specific page.. Ethnic background is part of biography. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 20:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

As appears in the diff, this is not his ethnicity, but of his father. No, this does not automatically belong to the page, especially as framed in this edit. If it was important for something, then might be. In any case, you need consensus for including this. See Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Restoring_deleted_content. Thanks, My very best wishes (talk) 20:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

The cited source clearly states it, "Prigozhin, whose father and stepfather were of Jewish descent, was charged by the US government with trying to influence the 2016 US presidential election, and the Wagner Group is the subject of US and European Union sanctions."

although I can agree with you that the ethnicity of the stepfather could be excluded, the ethnicity of the father should be included. Ethnic background is part of ones biography and it makes no sense to erase it from this one and only this one page.

Can we compromise and rephrase it to be more in line with the rest of wikipedia? Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 20:39, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Why is that significant? Is he a Jewish activist? This edit reads like a promotion of International Jewish conspiracy theories. My very best wishes (talk) 20:44, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

"International Jewish conspiracy"? Sorry I do not know what you're talking about. It is significant because it is the ethnic background of the subject, as it is included in all biographies. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

What "all biographies"? Can you please provide any refs/links? Note that the source you linked to is not his biography. Regardless, you are violating this rule: Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Restoring_deleted_content. Please self-revert. My very best wishes (talk) 20:53, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I am not violating any rules, I have provided proof and source. All persons pages state ethnic background. Please stop deleting information, Thanks. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 20:57, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I am saying that few to none sources provide info you want to be included about the subject of this page. Hence it is undue on the page. You said that ethnic background must always be included to BLP pages. Why do you think so? Can you refer to any WP policy? My very best wishes (talk) 21:03, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I did not say that ethnic background MUST ALWAYS be included, I said it should be included when available, because it is part of biography. Are you biased in this article? Earlier you said "But the number of sources does not matter." and now you say "I am saying that few to none sources provide info you want to be included"? Elaborate.

With the exclusion of "none" since clearly there is a source provided. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 21:05, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You distort my words. I said "Why it [ethnicity] is important? The cited source does not say it." My very best wishes (talk) 21:12, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Ethnicity is important because it is the background of the subject. Cited source includes it, 17th paragraph down. "Prigozhin, whose father and stepfather were of Jewish descent, was charged by the US government with trying to influence the 2016 US presidential election, and the Wagner Group is the subject of US and European Union sanctions."

Thanks. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 21:14, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Of course this is something on his background. I am asking why this particular info on his "background" is important in context of this page - as follows from RS. There is no answer. My very best wishes (talk) 21:20, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

It is part of his biography, just as nearly all notable people have their ethnic backgrounds (when known) included on their wikipedia articles. Why is this the only one that should have that information excluded? There is no answer. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 21:24, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

You are mistaken when you say: "nearly all notable people have their ethnic backgrounds (when known) included on their wikipedia articles". Where did you get such idea? Yes, such info is included on many pages, but it is not included on many others, even when known. In particular, on this page, I do not think that genetic traits of a well known criminal would be of any significance. My very best wishes (talk) 21:48, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

"I do not think that" that seems a matter of personal opinion does it not? Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 21:55, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

No. I am saying there are no RS explaining why this issue/info worth inclusion to the page. If you could provide sources explaining this, it would be a different matter. My very best wishes (talk) 22:01, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

It is worthy of inclusion because it is factual biographic information. Just like it is included how many children the subject has. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 22:05, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I would argue that personal family information should be included only if it is important for the subject of the page. For example, information about his daughter is indeed important as follows from provided ref [2]. Otherwise, I would remove it. My very best wishes (talk) 22:25, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Information that he has a daughter is important to the subject of the page because she flew on a private jet? Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 22:30, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

I have no idea why you consider this small detail so significant to violate WP:3RR rule during first few edits from your brand new account (are you a new user?), but whatever. I do not care so much. My very best wishes (talk) 01:22, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

And no, this is not just using his jet. See here, "Lyubov, Polina, and Pavel play various roles in Prigozhin’s business enterprise.". My very best wishes (talk) 02:38, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

great source and information, perhaps you should add it as well? Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 02:47, 8 November 2022 (UTC)

not one single person has made a case against including ethnic background other than "i dont like it". Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 02:37, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

That's your opinion about others. My assessment, is you are engaged in dishonest pov-pushing, and you lack methodology to write an article, while there is not enough sources for your claim anyway, and it is the case because this assertion is of no encyclopaedical value. --Beibler (talk) 02:43, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

It is my opinion that it is his ethnic background? Elaborate. You are engaging in dishonest pov-pushing your self. There is definitely enough sources to the claim. What is your reasoning that ethnic background should not be included and is there a compromise we can make?

Thank you for finally replying. Fixingtrolls01 (talk) 02:47, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

No, there can be no compromise. 72.66.125.46 (talk) 07:15, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Please, stop povpushing --Jkluvmo (talk) 23:34, 15 December 2022 (UTC)

Considering practically every article on wikipedia discusses extended ancestry of living persons, often including origin of great great grandfathers I see no reason to delete the fact that his father was Jewish. The source is better than much of what this article is currently based on. It is particularly relevant in this case considering Wagner is often labelled a "neo-nazi" organization by certain pundits. 2.138.200.92 (talk) 13:25, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not Russian propaganda, you have to follow the recommendations and stop useless povpushing.--Alkse2 (talk) 13:24, 15 January 2023 (UTC)

Please do not removed sourced content. Thanks. 2.138.200.92 (talk) 16:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

What you doing is a violation of the rules of Wikipedia regarding edit warring. Stop violating the rules. --Alkse2 (talk) 00:35, 17 February 2023 (UTC)

Delete the povpushing that you passed twenty minutes before the protection of the article in a dishonest fashion. Povpushing is a violation, delete it. --Alkse2 (talk) 09:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Sources

A number of sources used in the current version of the article do not meet WP:RS. In particular, they are Crime Russia, fbk.info and uawire. Using the Daily Mail is not ideal, either.--eh bien mon prince (talk) 22:51, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

FBK is an NGO. If you want to remove anything sourced to it, I would not complain. The Daily Mail has an interesting point of view, but it is a WP:Reliable source. If an article in the Mail is signed, however, it would be better to cite the person who wrote it instead of simply pinning it on the Mail. Also, be sure that anything from the Mail provides news and not opinion. Thanks to all. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 23:43, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I removed the tag. We should continue to find better sources. Some questionable points are marked within the text. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 19:30, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

UAWire cites other sources (Fontanka, Spark Interfax, RBC, and the company’s official website) and therefore is not itself a WP:Reliable source. We should cite those news outlets from which UAwire got its info. Also, quoting U.S. government sources is WP:Original research, wouldn't you say? Thanks. BeenAroundAWhile (talk) 03:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Error re: sentensing

The info box is slightly wrong, the sources given are medusa, but another source (the 'full translation of...' one ) is also medusa correcting it's previous claim that he was involving teens in prostitution, it was involving in burglary. Also his sentence was 13 years, not 12.

I don't know how to do the referencey thing so can't fix 213.31.219.92 (talk) 19:43, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

FBI offering reward of up to $250,000

Is it worth while mentioning that the FBI not only wants him, but is offering a reward of up to $250,000?

https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/counterintelligence/yevgeniy-viktorovich-prigozhin/yevgeniy-vicktorovich-prigozhin3.pdf/view

. RenniePet (talk) 03:32, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

False statements on battle of Khasham

The article claimed that PMC Wagner "attacked US forces and suffered dozens of casualties". This is flatly contradicted by the linked article Battle of Khasham. There was no armed confrontation between the US and PMC Wagner. Its little more than an urban legend which for some reason someone has included in this article. 2.138.200.92 (talk) 12:12, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I see there is an editor who is persistently including a false sentence that Wagner attacked US forces and suffered dozens of casualties in the Battle of Khasham. Refusal to engage here and continuing to include this false statement in the article is disruptive editing. 2.138.200.92 (talk) 23:49, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Jewish Ethnicity

Is Yevgeny Prigozhin jewish?166.48.16.195 (talk) 17:44, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

Prigozhin's father and stepfather were of Jewish descent, it is mentioned in the article. Whether or not he is Jewish may depend on who you ask. Going by Jewish religious law, Prizgozhin is not Jewish, since he wasn't born to a Jewish mother nor has he converted to Judaism. Mooonswimmer 00:22, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

This is WP:UNDUE and irrelevant to his notability, whether true or not. Volunteer Marek 19:53, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Intresting that there is such a different attitude between this article and, say, Vladislav Surkov one... Smeagol 17 (talk) 09:12, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

It’s relevant and interesting to note given that the Wagner group’s Wiki entry states that it is linked to far-right extremists and neo-Nazis. It should be included. 2601:40F:680:7880:9DCE:B02:8EE4:8404 (talk) 16:03, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Because like someone noted above, your basement dweller interest in being honest and transparent DOES NOT supersede protecting Jews. Do you have ANY idea just how dangerous it is for Jews in the world right now? ANY? And do you know how people will take this to mean that Jews are playing both sides of the Russian invasion? That we're war profiteers once again? Does the world really need more fuel for antisemitism? You get your worthless little ego boost. Is it worth risking Jews encountering more antisemitism? More kids getting beat up in the streets? I'm not compromising on this. I will stay on Wikipedia 24/7 to make sure your dumb little engagement doesn't go through. You want to say Prigozhin is a Jew? Tough luck. I'm not letting it happen. When gentiles act in this blithe, careless way, it makes my blood boil. You gave me enough reason and motivation to set up shop here for a while. And believe me, I will not hesitate to go to the admins and the mods to get your ass 86'd. Cherish these posts, basement gremlin. I hope they give you a sense of self-worth that you will never have. You might just be an antisemite yourself. You either know about these problems or you don't f'ing care. That's why you want to insist on putting "Jewish" on here. It's the same pathology that makes people exhibitionists. You're an antisemite-exhibitionist. I am done with people like you. Whatever the cost, I'm getting this page locked. Yevgeny Prigozhin is not Jewish as far as the internet is concerned. We're not going to let this happen; we're not gonna let you win. And I advise you to pick your battles wisely. 2602:FF62:1:1:0:0:0:18A7 (talk) 19:20, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, are you perchance a Navy Seal? Smeagol 17 (talk) 20:42, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

WOW. This really reads like the Navy Seal copypasta. I advise you to go outside and touch some grass, and maybe chill the hell down with the snow.

You really overestimate how much people care about Prigozhin especially in America. There are more than enough Jewish assholes out there to serve as an excuse for an antisemite to beat up someone. As a matter of fact, it does not even need to be factual (see Protocols of the Elders of Zion for one)

Once again, calm down with the stimulants. Synotia (moan) 14:23, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

His father and stepfather are Jewish, according to the Times of Israel, though somebody removed it from the article with the ref still there. I won't put it back since there are more interesting things to editwar about than Prigozhin's Jewishness.

Prigozhin is a surname mostly worn by Jews. (I'm so sorry for you, Ilya) Also confirmed by folks with this surname tending to have patronymics like Abramovich, Markovich, etc. Ruwiki straight up says it's a Jewish surname – although it simply comes from the Russian word пригожий. Synotia (moan) 14:45, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

I've changed it back every time you antisemitic smart-alecks change it. I don't plan on stopping. You're not going to win with your agenda. I will not LET YOU win. 2401:F540:7:2006:0:0:0:9B7B (talk) 02:26, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

I'm of Jewish origin myself you schmuck. Go enlist in the IDF if you're so determined, tough guy. Synotia (moan) 10:04, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

The claim that "His father and stepfather were of Jewish descent" seems to be a case of circular reporting. The Times of Israel's source is no other than this Wikipedia article itself at the time as you can see here : https://www.timesofisrael.com/beyond-ukraine-wagner-group-mercenaries-are-putins-coercive-tool-in-africa-too/ (the other linked Times of Israel article was published one week later reusing the same wording). The original wikipedia source added Special:Permalink/968536208 to back up this claim was this russian page http://www.compromat.ru/page_33163.htm on which I can't find the claim with google translation, and which seems to be an unreliable source anyway (see Talk:Anna_Politkovskaya/Archive_2#To_Vlad_fedorov.

Therefore someone should remove this claim until there is an actual (non circular) source for it. Ketchupsource (talk) 18:30, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The only mention of Wikipeida in the ToI article seems to be credit for the emblem image Synotia (moan) 19:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The first word of "Prigozhim, whose father and stepfather were of Jewish descent" in this article https://www.timesofisrael.com/beyond-ukraine-wagner-group-mercenaries-are-putins-coercive-tool-in-africa-too/ is a direct link to this wikipedia article Early Life section. The article on the same site currently linked as a source in the wikipedia article https://www.timesofisrael.com/mercenary-linked-putin-ally-lashes-dying-out-western-civilization/ was written a week later by the same authors and reusing the exact same sentence "Prigozhin, whose father and stepfather were of Jewish descent". Both articles are posterior to the wikipedia article claim (which was then unsourced) and are using again the same wording that originates from the wikipedia article. There is no source before the unsourced wikipedia article version linked on ToI. This is a clear case of circular reporting. Ketchupsource (talk) 19:49, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The page is protected

Should have happened long ago, what the hell is that edit history. Synotia (moan) 10:09, 18 February 2023 (UTC)

You are welcome. Smeagol 17 (talk) 18:21, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

Hello the povpushing is still in the article. Suddenly an IP comes to make a last povpushing. --Alkse2 (talk) 17:18, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

As I said, if your IP friends don't look at what they revert, it is their (and your?) problem, not ours. Smeagol 17 (talk) 09:13, 10 March 2023 (UTC)

Once a convict in the former Soviet Union

This is vague as to what jurisdiction he was a convict in: the USSR, the RF, or some other post-Soviet state? Just "Soviet Union" would be clearer. 67.180.143.89 (talk) 16:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Done Smeagol 17 (talk) 22:47, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Unclear Wording

Final para in the Involvement in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine section: "On 13 November 2022, Wagner released a video depicting a captured deserter from the group who defected to the Ukrainian side being executed via a sledgehammer blow to the skull." The wording is very unclear as to who executed the deserter, and could lead one to misunderstand that he was executed by the Ukrainians after he deserted. The source also does not call him a defector, the key difference being that a defector agrees to serve/fight for the opposing side, which there is no evidence of him doing. Also, the source given does not say he was struck in the skull, only that he was attacked with a sledgehammer. While I do not doubt the veracity of the attack's depiction in article, the article should match the source.

I suggest changing the wording to: On 13 Nov 22, Wagner released a video depicting Wagner Group mercenaries using a sledgehammer to execute a deserter, he had earlier been returned to the Russians in a prisoner exchange.

--2607:FEA8:E9A6:A400:2DF5:35A0:963D:5CA1 (talk) 19:03, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. Thanks, Prolog (talk) 12:11, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Potential organizer of a putsch against Putin

In the newsweek article, the possibility of him arranging a putsch is described in great detail, i feel like this should be mentioned.

https://www.newsweek.com/wagner-boss-may-seek-replace-putin-coup-attempt-political-analyst-1783110 StrongALPHA (talk) 17:33, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

A possibility that someone can organize a coup? Smeagol 17 (talk) 17:29, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

I get the sarcasm of your comment, but the point here is that he would betray Putin. StrongALPHA (talk) 17:47, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

@StrongALPHA: IMVHO WP:CRYSTAL applies here, resulting with nope. --CiaPan (talk) 12:08, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Kirill Ziminov

Since the page is protected, I cannot edit to correct the spelling of this name, currently written Kiril Ziminov. Please correct. Avemundi (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Gaping hole in biography

Reading this article there's clearly a question that goes unaddressed. One can't help but wonder how this petty thug turned businessman and caterer ended up forming a mercenary corps and leading it at the frontlines, a mercenary group now well-known for its efficacy. That's not something that just about any chef can do, in fact usually it takes some relevant military experience. Yet here we read his life story and without explanation we learn that this chef turned into a general of his own private army of convicts. How? 80.68.228.217 (talk) 16:30, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Section name - better than 'June 2023'

If someone can think of a better section name than 'June 2023', then please go ahead and edit! The problem is that we don't yet "know" (per WP:RS) what it "is" except for Prigozhin making a lot of social media noise and being charged with rebellion under Russian criminal law. Boud (talk) 22:16, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023

Change "...and that his forces where practically in an active state of mutiny." to "...and that his forces were practically in an active state of mutiny." in Wagner Group -> Involvement in the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine -> Complaints and conflicts -> last paragraph, first sentence Furzellewen (talk) 09:22, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Done Already done. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 15:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Suggested addition of ‘Current person’ template

Given the events of 24 June 2023, in addition to edit protection the current person template (or other current template) could be beneficial to readers while the situation is difficult to verify. Doorstotheorangery (talk) 12:44, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Edit request 24 June 2023

To the subheading June 2023 Mutiny:

June 2023 rebellion

Diff:

−

====June 2023 Mutiny====

+

====June 2023 rebellion====

The page "Wagner Group mutiny" was moved to "Wagner Group rebellion" as "rebellion" was more fitting. ---Sincerely, Key of G Minor. ^Tools: (talk, contribs) 15:38, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

@Key of G Minor: please use the edit request template in the future (for this page, use the extended confirmed version). That said,  Done. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 15:48, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (1)

We should remove the claim that "His father and stepfather were of Jewish descent", and his listing in the "Russian people of Jewish descent" category, as well as the reference to the Times of Israel article, whose source is a false confirmation (circular reporting) as I explained here Talk:Yevgeny_Prigozhin#Jewish_Ethnicity Ketchupsource (talk) 18:52, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Not done. Wiki follows what Reliable Sources state. See policy. HammerFilmFan (talk) 11:21, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy WP:NEWSORG actually states that circular sourcing is not a valid source and should be bewared of so the request still holds. "Some news organizations have used Wikipedia articles as a source for their work. Editors should therefore beware of circular sourcing." Ketchupsource (talk) 05:54, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (2)

Because it reveals what likely triggered Prigozhin's actions in June, I suggest adding the following sentence (and citation) to the beginning of this article subsection: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Prigozhin#June_2023_rebellion

Earlier in June, Prigozhin defied orders to sign a contract placing his troops under Defence Ministry command. Nick Nitpicker (talk) 19:23, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023 (3)

Prigozhen did not declare a rebellion at any time. Western media is being cited for this information, and news agencies like CNN have sensationalized the incident with the wagner group. We simply do not have enough information yet to record this in the Wikipedia history books as fact. The individuals modifying this information should be restricted from editing on account of these overzealous edits. 170.199.153.172 (talk) 21:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Not done. Wiki follows the RS's. HammerFilmFan (talk) 11:17, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 25 June 2023

Change "However, his career in sport was ultimately unsuccessful." to "However, his career in skiing was ultimately unsuccessful." DelayedSunflower (talk) 03:28, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Are Ilya and and Yevgeny related?

Prigogine and Prigozhin - Perhaps handled better by a Russian scholar than me. Doug youvan (talk) 11:39, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

"mercenary chief"

I misread this at first as "mercenary chef" which brought all sorts of strange inferences to mind. Perhaps it could be changed to "mercenary commander". 67.180.143.89 (talk) 13:22, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Error in the article

The article states under the “June 2023” section that “Wagner shot down a Ilyushin Il-22 fighter plane”. This should be changed to “Wagner shot down an Ilyushin Il-22 airborne command post”.

Thank you for reading! ThatQuirkyBall (talk) 09:17, 27 June 2023 (UTC)