Talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine

Link to most recent closed and archived RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The heading above is a link to the RfC: Talk:2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine/Archive 11#RfC on Western support to Ukraine, closed 30 December 2022.

See also earlier RfCs: Talk:2022_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine/Archive_9#RfC on "Supported by" in the infobox for Ukraine, closed 9 June 2022; and, Should the individual arms supplying countries be added to the infobox?: closed 6 March 2022. All RfCs were closed with "no consensus". In the most recent RfC, the closer made the following statement:

Also, can we not do this again in a couple months? There is WP:NODEADLINE, and there is sure to be plenty of academic studies and expert writings that will provide excellent context and sourcing for what, exactly, should be listed in that infobox parameter. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:04, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

Cinderella157 (talk) 06:13, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Wagner group

Many MANY reports are claiming abut Wagner troops and RUssian troops fighting against each other, should we add on the article? t was about 2 or 1 hour ago Lucasoliveira653 (talk) 19:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Give one or two WP:RS and propose which article that makes most sense in. Once WP:RS report on it, it will make sense somewhere, starting off as a paragraph, and (depending on what WP:RS say happens) extending to a section and maybe an article. Boud (talk) 20:40, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Template:Russian invasion of Ukraine currently has:

Reactions -> Public -> Companies -> Wagner Group (Andrey Medvedev - Wagner Line); and

Key people -> Russians -> Yevgeny Prigozhin. Boud (talk) 20:45, 23 June 2023 (UTC) (updated Boud (talk) 20:48, 23 June 2023 (UTC))

The events seem to be taking place in Ukraine - Russian forces fighting Russian forces in Ukraine - so something like a new subsection Wagner Group activities in Ukraine#Fight against regular Russian army would make sense if there are WP:RS reporting on fighting. Boud (talk) 20:59, 23 June 2023 (UTC) (updated Boud (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2023 (UTC))

Currently seems more like the "event" is Prigozhin (criminal case opened against him) rather than a military rebellion; and some of the events are in Rostov (Russia) rather than in Ukraine. Boud (talk) 21:06, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Prigozhin as "the event": Yevgeny Prigozhin#Legal charges - a {{main}} or {{see also}} cross-link can be added there later if something more than Prigozhin being arrested and getting lots of online media attention happens. Criminal charges against him are clearly a notable event for a sentence or two. Boud (talk) 21:39, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

WP:RS are now reporting on it. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66005256 HappyWith (talk) 21:57, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/23/prigozhin-says-moscow-strikes-kill-huge-number-of-wagner-forces-vows-to-stop-top-brass-a81615 I think we might want to make a new article for this, or at least a draft. Things seem to be heating up. HappyWith (talk) 22:01, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

We really only seem to know<ref name="MoscowTimes_Prigozhin_says_Moscow">{{cite Q|Q119860197|url-status=live}}</ref> that criminal charges have been laid, tanks are moving around Moscow and St Petersburg, Wagner offices were raided, Prigozhin is in St Petersburg, and there's no sign of Wagner accumulating any support for its supposed rebellion. Boud (talk) 22:20, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

Oh well, the inevitable happened - a new article: Wagner Group mutiny, despite no evidence that the whole group has mutinied rather than just Prigozhin. Next step: endless title debate ... Boud (talk) 22:34, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

If at least two members participate then it’s a mutiny in Wagner Group.  —Michael Z. 23:58, 23 June 2023 (UTC)

"No evidence"? It's reported all over the media, and there are even videos of Wagner troops occupying Rostov and convoys moving north. Chaotic Enby (talk) 12:11, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I have seen it said that they have seized more territory in 3 days than the Russian army seized in 18 months. Slatersteven (talk) 12:20, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

References

Belligerents - what to do with Wagner?

Now that it's pretty clear that the Wagner group is fighting the Russian army, and both control territory in Ukraine (respectively, the stretch from Bakhmut to the Rostov Oblast border and the rest, roughly), should the PMC Wagner be in its own column in the "Belligerents" part of the infobox? Or at least separated from the Russian army in some way? They're definitely a major player in the invasion of Ukraine (see Battle of Bakhmut), but they're not on Russia's side anymore. Chaotic Enby (talk) 10:00, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think it's much too soon to make any changes like that to the infobox. Officially Wagner is still a "part of Russia". Given this is a developing situation I think we can only wait and see if they become a truly independent belligerent that isn't associated with Russia at all. — Czello ^(music) 10:04, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Putin ordered the arrest of Prigozhyn and Wagner troops are marching into Russian cities, I'd say they are a 3rd party now ImStevan (talk) 10:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

And now it's already over. Nothing more needs to be done here. — Czello ^(music) 07:56, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Should the infobox be amended to present Wagner as a 3rd side since there is now clearly a conflict between Wagner and Russia? ImStevan (talk) 09:08, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I would say that regardless, it is not a separate belligerent WRT the infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:43, 24 June 2023 (UTC) Moved from Template talk:Russian invasion of Ukraine infobox by ImStevan

Per Czello. Write the article and then think about the infobox. But one should consider that the infobox is not the place for nuance and at present, this is very nuanced. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:17, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed, lets leave it for now, its a mutiny. Slatersteven (talk) 10:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I would suggest that when/if the animated map gets updated, this should probably be marked on that map (for however long this mutiny/coup/'march for justice') lasts in a separate colour? 2A02:C7C:C4CD:A500:2D25:3F88:8C94:8BB8 (talk) 12:03, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

This did not age well, I think we can leave them out. Slatersteven (talk) 12:47, 25 June 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 June 2023

Requesting the Wagner coup to be added to the summary at the beginning of the article, following the 2023 Ukrainian counteroffensive mention. It is a significant event in the war and should have a significant place in the article.

In 24 June, Wagner mercenary group chief Yevgeny Prigozhin announced the beginning of military action against the Ministry of Defense as a retribution to an alleged missile attack to a Wagner camp. TynoPk (talk) 12:28, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

References

UNsure if this is part of the Russian invasion of Ukraine, or the Wagner Invasion of Russia. Slatersteven (talk) 12:37, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

We already treat it as such in its own article and in the 2023 events list though. TynoPk (talk) 13:53, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

UNsure we should though, it is related to the wider war, not the invasion. Slatersteven (talk) 13:56, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:57, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the map now should include the military/political situation in the Russian territories that border Ukraine as now the Wagner group are controlling it. Wlcidar (talk) 16:31, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

New article - Russian penal military units

Editors of this page might be interested in this newly created page about Russian prison recruitment during the war: Russian penal military units HappyWith (talk) 23:13, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

Incorrect use of military terminology: invasion vs. occupation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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• Invasion is [the] incursion of an army for conquest or plunder. E.g. Invasion of Poland
• Occupation is the holding and control of an area by a foreign military force E.g. Occupation of Poland (1939–1945)

The invasion was the capture of territory by Russia during the early stage of the war. Currently, there are no major changes in the front-lines. Either non-military operation related aspects of the article should be moved to an umbrella article (possibly Russian occupation of Ukraine) or this article should be renamed to something more general, if it is intended to be the umbrella article. 95.12.116.141 (talk) 23:58, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 June 2023

This page is not credible. All of the information comes from irreliable outlets that trumpet the same government lines. At least the article should be labelled as government sponsored media, as such are its sources . I would like an article that includes both Ukrainian, russian, LPR&Donbass and third parties information, numbers and statements. Without such this article has no value whatsoever. 2A02:3037:617:8B0B:84E7:66FF:FEAE:43E2 (talk) 08:57, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 10:18, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Ukraine war Rivnopil liberation

Ukraine war liberated Rivnopil 182.224.89.144 (talk) 11:41, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

As we did not mention its capture I am unsure we need to mention its liberation, we can't list every village that changes hands. Slatersteven (talk) 12:04, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

Why not? Are we doing that because it would be upsetting to some users? 71.114.123.162 (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

No, I would argue we are not doing it for the following reasons 1) wp:notnews 2) WP:INDISCRIMINATE 3) so the reader does not have to read a list of every captured village. And read wp:agf. Slatersteven (talk) 13:55, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I would argue that the liberation of Rivnopil has been widely covered by media all over the world and the mass of reliable sources discussing this topic show that this is not only news, but is notable for inclusion in the encyclopedia. I am worried that with every liberation of a Ukrainian settlement, there will be people making some argument that they shouldn't be included in any capacity and before long, there will be no mention of them at all. Assuming good faith and playing into state sponsored propaganda efforts are two very different things. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 14:00, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

We are talking about the village, are we not? The liberation of a single village is not notable, and again is already covered in other articles. For it to be mentioned in this main article it'd have to be far more notable. — Czello ^(music) 14:02, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

My understanding is that for a topic to be considered "notable" it must have significant coverage in reliable sources over a period of time. It is understandable if this isn't notable because it is a fairly recent event, but the liberation of Rivnopil has been widely covered in reliable sources from all over the world and is at the very least notable outside of Wikipedia's definition. I think we should be very careful about which information is withheld and for whose benefit it is being withheld. 71.114.123.162 (talk) 14:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Nothing's being "withheld", it's instead just listed on more appropriate articles (which I've listed for you below). Again, this article is about the broad topic, and if we covered every little village that changes hands it'd quickly balloon in size. Instead we list things like that on more specific articles. — Czello ^(music) 14:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I understand that, and I acknowledge that it's being included in other articles. I am speaking more to future cases, in which there may be efforts to remove any mention of Ukraine liberating one of it's settlements from any article. It's important that Wikipedia, even unknowingly, unwittingly, or unintentionally, doesn't fan the flames of Russian propaganda, which in the case is seeking to remove mentions of Ukrainian battlefield successes from the internet (to which Wikipedia, being publicly edited, is particularly susceptible). 71.114.123.162 (talk) 14:14, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

I can't see a situation where we'd knowingly exclude notable information like that from any article at all. Wikipedia is not censored and most of the editors here have had to put up with (and combat) Russian propagandists in the past, so we're familiar with their tactics and instead use more reliable sources for our information. — Czello ^(music) 14:19, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Until the next one and the next. We can't keep updating this article as if it's a live news feed every time Ukraine advances a few miles. Slatersteven (talk) 14:12, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

No, it's because it's outside of the scope of this article. It's already been detailed at several other articles (here, here, and here) — Czello ^(music) 13:57, 27 June 2023 (UTC)