Talk:Hedy Lamarr

GPS/Bluetooth text is misleading

The text about GPS and Bluetooth -- "the principles of their work are incorporated into Bluetooth and GPS technology and are similar to methods used in legacy versions of CDMA and Wi-Fi" -- is misleading. The principles of Frequency Hopping predate Lamarr and Antheil by several decades and there is no evidence their work or any principles of their work were incorporated into GPS and Bluetooth. The sentence as written implies the principles originated with their work, and further implies a lineage from their work to GPS and Bluetooth where no such lineage exists.

The text should be written more clearly "the principles of Frequency Hopping were already well known decades before Lamarr and Antheil's patent. The same principles are used today in GPS and Bluetooth. The novelty of Lamarr and Antheil's patent was to solve the problem using a mechanical device but their solution proved impractical and led nowhere." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.214.77.147 (talk) 03:40, 14 January 2023 (UTC)

Funny how no-one has even considered the even more blatantly obvious errors, contained within the above-mentioned section of text - that being centred around the fact that CDMA, GPS, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth have simply never used any form of Frequency Hopping in their modulation techniques. 120.157.33.156 (talk) 18:46, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

This last assertion is incorrect. Bluetooth does indeed use FHSS (Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum). 75.19.156.90 (talk) 15:40, 6 July 2023 (UTC)

"Inventor"?

The claims made under the heading "Inventor" are largely without any authoritative sources, and contradicted by a wealth of evidence. For example, the article claims "Among the few who knew of Lamarr's inventiveness was aviation tycoon Howard Hughes. She suggested he change the rather square design of his aeroplanes (which she thought looked too slow) to a more streamlined shape, based on pictures of the fastest birds and fish she could find." (emphasis added) The source cited for this claim is an article in Vanity Fair -- a periodical that is hardly a reliable source for facts regarding the history of science. And the author of that article -- a 27(-ish) year-old entertainment writer -- provided no sources for her claims (other than an old interview with Lamarr), nor did the writer have any relevant expertise. But Lamarr's claims (repeated in Vanity Fair) are easily shown to be groundless hearsay. Hughes and Lamarr first met in 1938. Three years earlier, Hughes' aircraft design the "H-1" had already established itself as the fastest airplane on earth, and it was as streamlined as any aircraft would be for at least the next 5 years. No one could accurately describe it as un-aerodynamic or "rather square". Furthermore, Hughes' aircraft designs appear to have evolved from the H-1 without any significant deviations brought about by Lamarr's "advice". These fly in the face of Lamarr's later claims that she "showed it to Howard Hughes and he said, 'You're a genius'." (from that Vanity Fair article) Furthermore, every aircraft designer since Leonardo da Vinci, through Otto Lilienthal and the Wright Brothers, up to Hughes himself, had already studied the shapes of birds to draw inspiration for aircraft design. Claiming that Lamarr was in any way original in her suggestion to Hughes (if indeed she ever made such a suggestion -- we are expected to take her word for it) displays an abject ignorance of the history of heavier-than-air craft. Again, the piece in Vanity Fair cannot be considered a reliable source when it comes to the history of scientific invention. Do any credible sources in that domain make any such claim? Not that I have been able to find. The Vanity Fair article claims "Do you like Wi-Fi? You can thank Lamarr for that" -- a claim so laughably ahistoric that it ought to discredit anything else the author writes. There is a reason why neither the WP article on Wi-Fi, nor the one on IEEE 802.11 make any mention whatsoever of Lamarr, and that reason is that she had nothing to do with them. She and George Antheil (who was at least familiar with player piano technology) co-filed a patent on using player piano rolls to skip frequencies on radio-guided torpedoes. Antheil does not seem to have left any documentation as to why he and Lamarr are listed on the patent as co-authors (perhaps he was charmed by her; perhaps he thought her profile would help him commercialize the technology), but the point is moot, since the technology the patent describes was never implemented. This is hardly surprising since electromechanical devices were quickly becoming obsolete in 1942. The final sentence in the "Inventions" section states "In 2014, Lamarr and Antheil were posthumously inducted into the National Inventors Hall of Fame". At the relevant page on the NIHF website it states that Lamarr "had at one time been married to a munitions manufacturer, giving her the foundation for her knowledge of weapons systems, including torpedo control systems. Again, this is nonsense. Lamarr was indeed (briefly) Married to Friedrich Mandl who inherited the Otto Eberhardt Patronenfabrik from his father. But that company never produced "torpedo control systems"; in fact, the Kriegsmarine never even used radio-controlled torpedoes in WWII; they were all either acoustically-guided, or simply straight-running. So Lamarr could not have had any relevant knowledge from which to draw "expertise" about "torpedo control systems". Bricology (talk) 08:14, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

Well, it's been 7 months since I wrote the above, and no one has tried to defend the claims made in the article, so I can only infer that no such defense is forthcoming. I am going to prune out some of the more ridiculous claims from that section. Bricology (talk) 23:37, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

Your concerns are reasonable, but you fall into the same trap of making bold statements with little to back them up (eg. "Antheil does not seem to have left any documentation as to why he and Lamarr are listed on the patent as co-authors (perhaps he was charmed by her; perhaps he thought her profile would help him commercialize the technology), but the point is moot, since the technology the patent describes was never implemented."). If you'd done a smidgen more research, you'd understand that it's most likely Lamarr took the idea to Antheil. I'd consider reading: https://www.americanscientist.org/article/random-paths-to-frequency-hopping

Quote: "Claims and counterclaims have been made as to whether Lamarr originated the frequency-hopping scheme or learned of it in meetings at Fritz Mandl’s firm, the Hirtenberger Patronenfabrik. In Bad Boy, George affirms that she got her education at those meetings, and although he is not exactly the world’s most reliable memoirist, he could hardly have received the information from anyone but Hedy. Robert Price, an engineer at Massachusetts Institute of Technology’s Lincoln Laboratory and a pioneer of spread-spectrum technology, interviewed Lamarr. He told me that he came away convinced that she had heard the idea in her husband’s boardroom, and with tongue somewhat planted in cheek, Price called her “the Mata Hari of World War II.” Still, one must be mindful of historical gender roles—of how Lamarr might have presented herself as well as how her statements might have been received."

2.101.247.221 (talk) 12:19, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

Can we confirm whether either of these are in doubt:

• Lamarr and Antheils device is the first documented viable implementation of a frequency hopping device
• Lamarr and Antheil are recognised as the inventors in the patent of the device

If there is no tangible proof against either 1 or 2 above then until further information is forthcoming it seems Lamarr and Antheil are to be recognized as the original inventors of frequency hopping devices? — Preceding unsigned comment added by GaryFBonds (talk • contribs) 11:23, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

According to PBS: "Discover the role of women in World War II in this video from the American Masters film Bombshell: The Hedy Lamarr Story. Hedy Lamarr invented frequency hopping—a technology that could have provided a significant advantage to the United States military in the war—but the Navy shelved her idea and told her to sell war bonds instead. By selling war bonds, she engaged in something deemed more appropriate for a woman, especially a glamorous actress." Although you are probably correct that she did not invent frequency hopping, at least she did contribute something to the war effort 🙂 Abricru (talk) 19:30, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

possible bisexuality

see this link -https://www.intomore.com/culture/the-beautiful-possibly-bisexual-actress-who-helped-invent-wireless-technology/

shouldn't this be mentioned? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.197.144.46 (talk) 18:20, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines place a high bar on stating an individuals sexual preference, both in terms of relevance and quality of sourcing. Neither the above website nor the highly-speculative documentary Bombshell rise to that. There is mention of same-sex encounters in her supposed autobiography, however, Lamarr herself sued her ghostwriters over claims made in the book. Unless better sourcing can be found, no, speculation about her sexual preference should not be mentioned. Peter G Werner (talk) 16:47, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Hey Lamarr article

Simple mistake; Ms Lamarr was not considered a great actress, but rather a great beauty 38.77.40.75 (talk) 04:12, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

I just posted the same thing. sorry I didn't see your comment, but I do agree. Abricru (talk) 19:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Hedy Lamar

Why does Hedy Lamar's page read like George Antheil did most of the work on the invention, but George Antheil's page reads like it was a joint venture? 2600:1700:55C1:AB0:60AC:FF8C:57E6:FFF2 (talk) 11:00, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

How do we determine whether she was a great actress or a great beauty? At least one person is here to give her what she is due. No one gives her credit for all of her work. No one gave her credit at the time. In a phone call to her son, near her death, she discusses her work. He confirms that she never got most patents. A woman discovered the DNA double helix sequence & two guys got the Nobel. So it goes. DawnDMST (talk) 07:53, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Did Lammer really invent anything?

The heading state that Lammar laid down the essential priniciples for bluetooth and GPS technologies. I have three main problems with this statement:

1. Lammar most probably wasn't a pioneer and didn't invent frequency hopping, several scientists independently from each other published works that included everything there is in the patent on her name decades before it was subscribed.

2. Is there any reliable source (i.e., from peer reviewed scientific journal that discuss the history of the technology in scientific rigor) that show how Lammars' work is specifically and directly essential and/or part of bluetoothe and GPS technologies? I think exceptional arguements needs exceptional evidence. Such source could also clarify whether she was a pioneer at all.

3. The friend of Lammar who also share with her the patent on the frequency hopping device happened to hold masters degree in electrical engineering. The patent includes many technocal terms etc. Lammar as far as we know to the very least had no formal technological education so her part in the patent should be questioned and verified, yet that no one did it is wondering by itself.

I think Wikipedia articles should be more objective and better informing than popular media reports. Basically this is WP guide lines. Therefore my suggestion is to remove any content that presents her as technological genius (basically glorifying her, against WP policy), pioneer of adavanced technology and inventor of the technology behind bluetooth and GPS unless one can support it with reliable academic source that show she actually pioneered the technology and that her work is essentical for GPS and bluetooth.

This source for instance (not in scientific journal but yet detailed) is taking from Lammar most of the credit given to her in this wikipedia article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gilisa (talk • contribs) 09:55, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

References

I also think Tony Rothman's American Scienctist article thoroughly debunks dubious claims that Lamarr and Antheil made any serious contribution to modern packet-switching technology, never mind WiFi, Bluetooth, and GPS. Quite simply, there were many proposed frequency hopping and other packet-switching proposals, apparently going back to Marconi and Tesla. Modern communications technology uses a version of packet-switching technology, albeit, a very different one than the one proposed in the Lamarr and Antheil patent, and there's really no evidence that any modern wireless networking technology has the Lamarr and Antheil patent in its genealogy. In fact, there's no unambiguous evidence that the US Navy ever tested any technology based Lamarr and Antheil patent.

This claim about Lamarr is so frequently repeated in popular culture that it absolutely needs its own section here. However, it's a claim that needs to be recounted in a contextual and factually-accurate way. The fact is, the Lamarr and Antheil patent was never more than a clever idea, and an interesting footnote in the biography of a glamourous celebrity. Peter G Werner (talk) 17:10, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Also, a reminder to not remove the Factual accuracy tag until this dispute is resolved. These claims are legitimately under dispute. Peter G Werner (talk) 17:44, 23 October 2022 (UTC)

Lamarr has been described as one of the greatest movie actresses of all time?

While Hedy Lamar is universally considered one of the most strikingly beautiful movie stars of all time, it is a bit of a stretch to call her one of the greatest actresses of all time.

She never won nor was nominated for any of the major acting awards such as the Academy Award, Golden Globe, SAG, etc.

I think it would be more accurate to say she was one of the most beautiful actresses of all times. Abricru (talk) 19:22, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

That’s your personal opinion, which isn’t a source. On the other hand, several sources mention her being one of the greatest actresses of all time. Soyouy553 (talk) 06:46, 28 April 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 23:57, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Alleged autobiography?

If this is bogus, why quote from it so often? 125.209.157.246 (talk) 06:15, 10 July 2023 (UTC)