Talk:Communism

Lead section images

Hi @The History Wizard of Cambridge, I notice you recently added five images to the lead section. Images are often the first thing readers look at in articles. For that reason I prefer having no lede images in broad topic articles, such as communism is. Could you explain how you chose the current picks? There is a demonstration, a revolution, an anti-fascist victory, a Marxist–Leninist leader visiting another Marxist–Leninist ruled country, and a propaganda poster for Marxism–Leninism–Maoism. No libertarian tendency represented. –Vipz (talk) 07:05, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Hello, well my 2 cents are there is no need for a lede images in broad and wide topic articles and this is exactly one of that articles. Cheers 79.101.141.7 (talk) 05:12, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I support these images.--Jack Upland (talk) 04:40, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

My justification for the lead image choices

I apologise for my late reply to you @User:viz. I chose photographs on a basis of how iconic and recognisable they were, coupled with their effects upon history and real world events.

Communist parade (6297059793).jpg - Modern India because this represents the largest communist movement outside of a communist country active today.

Fidel Castro and his men in the Sierra Maestra.jpg - Cuban revolution. Cuba is among the longest lasting communist governments, as well as one of the few remaining, and the only one in the Americas, with Fidel Castro being one of the most easily identifiable communists in history.

Raising a flag over the Reichstag 2.jpg - The Soviet victory over Nazism. In my opinion this is the most iconic photograph ever created by communists. The only other images representing communism that are as easily recognisable are the hammer and sickle (which is in this photograph), and Che Guevara shirts which are already somewhat represented by the Cuban revolution image.

Bundesarchiv Bild 183-48550-0036, Besuch Ho Chi Minhs bei Pionieren, bei Berlin.jpg - Ho Chi Minh in East Germany. This one I was on the fence for but I wanted to find an example of both an iconic communist practitioner, who also had a large effect on real world events, and represented some form of interaction between different communists.

Marxismo Leninismo Pensamiento Maotsetung.jpg Artistic poster of marx, engels, lenin, stalin, and Mao. As the five communists whose theories and actions have had the most influence upon real world events, this needs little explanation, though I also wanted to include an image I felt was typical of communist art and culture, hence why I chose an art piece.

Over-representation ? You mentioned that there are "no libertarian tendency" represented in the images, and that Marxist-Leninists are over-represented. This is likely because Marxist-Leninist communists are responsible for the vast majority of communist revolutions and governments, while "libertarian communist" have had relatively little noticeable effect on real world events. While Marxist-Leninists had military, scientific, and economic superpowers, libertarian communists don't appear to have made much of an impact on world history. That is not a comment on which ideology is supposedly more correct, that's just how it looks from a historical viewpoint. The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 18:22, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

I didn't think much of an explanation or debate is even needed to explain why those images were inappropriate, especially for such a diverse political topic. However I will partially explain my reasoning for removing these images specifically.

The reasoning for the inclusion of these images you've provided doesn't justify inclusion. The first image you suggested certainly couldn't be described as major or important, the only justification given is because it is modern and therefore relevant. The size of a "communist movement" isn't just defined by party membership to begin with so even the very claim itself that it is the largest movement outside of a communist country is doubtful.

The main issue with including the image of the Cuban revolution is that revolutions aren't really the focus of this article and this article doesn't really focus on Cuba and no reason is given as to why this revolution is of special importance. It is also factually incorrect to say that it was the only Communist government to have existed in the Americas.

The Reichstag flag image is iconic but it isn't really associated with Communism so much as it is associated with the Soviet Union and WW2 which is why it generally appears in articles and books on those topics as opposed to ones on Communism. The facts that it includes a hammer and sickle or that it is an iconic image created by communists are not justifications for including the image in the lead.

The Ho Chi Minh image also has issues but since you were "on the fence" for this image it seems unnecessary to explain my reasoning for removing it.

"Artistic poster of marx, engels, lenin, stalin, and Mao" is a charitable way of describing a propaganda poster of which there are countless. The inclusion of propaganda posters isn't necessarily an issue but in what way is this poster representative of Communist art and culture? Communism encompassed multiple different countries and billions of people over a century since the October Revolution which literally cannot be represented by one poster. By chosing one poster that isn't really very notable it can appear as if you are suggesting that one country or viewpoint is more important or correct than another.

There are many, many more issues with these images but fundamentaly the main issue is that images were included in the lead in the first place, not what the images are. Much of the criteria you've laid out feels arbitrary(why do forms of interaction between different communists need to be included?) and self contradicting. Regardless of how "correct" Communism is it is often associated with economic backwardness and starvation. It is also often associated with massive military and technological development, cults of personality and liberatarianism among other things. This is a "High-importance" article on Liberatarianism after all. Originalcola (talk) 19:33, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

"Cummunism" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Cummunism has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 June 15 § Cummunism until a consensus is reached. Di (they-them) (talk) 00:00, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

András Bozóki

So I saw the Bozoki para was removed. I didn't remove it myself because whether it should be included depends on two questions:

1) Is his (rather confused and likely incorrect) opinion regarding the history of communism WP:DUE 2) If it is WP:DUE was the statement accredited to him accurately recorded or was it garbled? Let's discuss.

I'll note I'm not particularly familiar with Bozoki. I'm not impressed with what I see here but my level of impression isn't a criterion for inclusion or exclusion on Wikipedia (alas). Simonm223 (talk) 12:03, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

I removed it because the very long-winded and jumbled paragraph contradicted itself, and tried to create very blanket statements. For example, it said that a bonus of communism was greater rights for women but a negative was "less freedom", as if to imply women having equal rights isn't freedom. It also said that communist movements created xenophobia, which is extremely bizarre when you consider that most communist parties were a century ahead of most other movements when it came to race relations.

Perhaps the paragraph cited an article which only focused on a specific country but this wasn't mentioned in the text. The History Wizard of Cambridge (talk) 21:05, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Definition of communism

Because of widespread usual primary use and relevance of this word ("communist states", also in the article North Korea is called that) I think that communism should rather be primarily defined as a mode of government that is justified with an ideology wherein the state would ultimately wither away, rather than primarily as the apparently practically irrelevant ideal of that ideology. 2A02:3038:413:E801:1:0:4F77:A487 (talk) 04:21, 1 August 2023 (UTC)