Talk:*Perkʷūnos

Other thunder gods?

Was he really "an Indo-European thunder god"? I don't think there were other thunder gods in the PIE pantheon... --Ghirla | talk 07:26, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I suppose you can have only one thunder god at a time, but there are other names (Thor etc.) that may also date to PIE times. So maybe there were areal variants, and thus "different gods" across the PIE dialect continuum, who knows. It is not even certain the name Perkwunos dates to PIE times, it may also be a Balto-Slavic innovation. dab (ᛏ) 09:01, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

When you're praying about a storm, all gods are thunder gods. --Fulminouscherub 01:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Proto-Yeniseian

Most likely non-IE: aš-parán. As most mythological elements in PIE. --Burehcsuonimluf (talk) 17:49, 10 December 2020 (UTC)

Pokorny

Material: Ai. parkati:- `heiliger Feigenbaum', nind. parga:i `Steineiche'; venet. VN Quarque:ni `Eichenmänner' (lat. Relikt?); Nymphis Percernibus vielleicht ligurisch (Vaucluse); lat. quercus f. `Eiche'; ital.-trent. porca `Föhre' (rät. *porca); kelt. Hercynia silva `das deutsche Mittelgebirge' (aus *Perkunia:, älter *Perkwunia:), cymr. perth f. `Busch, Hecke' (*kwerkw-t-?); kelt. VN Querquerni (goidel.) in Hispania Tarrac.; aus *Perkunia: wohl entlehnt germ. *fergunio:, ahd. Fergunna `Erzgebirge', mhd. Virgunt f. `Waldgebirge westlich Böhmens', got. fai/rguni n. `Gebirge', ags. firgen `Waldhöhe'; ahd. fereheih, langob. fereha `Speiseeiche', aisl. fjo,rr m. `Baum, Mann'; ablaut. ahd. forha `Kiefer', ags. furh; aisl. fura f. `Föhre', fy:ri n. `Föhrenwald'; aus ahd. *forh-ist `Föhrenwald': nhd. Forst; aus ahd. kien-forha (kien- zu ags. cen `Kienfackel', ablaut. zu ags. ci:nan, oben S. 355) wird nhd. Kiefer; unsicher ob nach Vendryes RC 44, 313 ff. hierher auch got. fairhwus `Welt', ags. feorh, ahd. ferah `Leben', wgerm. Alaferhuiae (= *Alaferhwio:s), zu aisl. fi:ra:r (*firhw-jo:R), ags. fi:ras Pl. `Männer' usw.; alit. perku/nas Donnergott, lit. perku/nas `Donner', perku/nija f. `Gewitter', let. pe:\,rkuo^ns `Donner,Donnergott', apr. percunis `Donner'; aruss. Perunù `Donnergott', russ. peru/n `Donnerkeil, Blitz' sind volksetymol. nach slav. *pero: `schlage' umgestaltet; unklar ist ai. Parja/nya- `Gewittergott' (s. oben unter <a href="lemma=per-3">per-3</A>, perg-).

Material: Arisch nur mit t-Formans: ai. p.r/t-, p.r/tana: `Kampf, Streit', av. p@r@t-, p@s^an a: `Kampf, Schlacht', p@r@tamna `die miteinander Kämpfenden', paiti-par@tata `bekämpft'; arm. hari `ich schlug' (Aor. zum Präs. harkanem, s. u.), harac `vulnus'; orot `Donne r', orotam `donnere'; alb. pres `haue ab, nieder; schneide', Aor. preva, me' pret `es kümmert mich, ist mir angel egen', pritem `werde geschnitten; zerkratze mich; kümmere mich um etwas'; lat. premo:, -ere, pressi, pressum `drücke', pre:lum `Presse, Kelter' (*pres-lom); Wurzel < i>pr-em- (mit durativem -em-) und pr-es- wie gr. [tre/mw] `zittere: [tre/w]' (*treso: ) ds.; lit. periu\, per~ti `mit dem Badequast schlagen, jemanden baden; schlagen', let. per/u, pe\rt ds .; lit. pirti\s, let. pi\rts `Badestube'; aksl. pero,, pìrati `schlagen, bes. mit dem Bläuel schlagen, waschen', skr. peùre^m, pra ùti `waschen'; ablaut. aksl. pìrjo,, *pìre^ti `contendere', so,-pìrja, s&ug rave;-porù `Streit', c^ech. pr^u, pr^iti se `streiten' und aksl. *pìro,, *p erti in russ. pru, pratì, peretì `drücken, drängen', naporù `Sto&szl ig;' usw., aruss. pìrtì `Badestube'; perg-: arm. harkanem (p.rg-) `schlage, zerhaue (Holz), fälle (Bäume), erschlage, k&aum l;mpfe'; air. orcaid, mir. oirggid `erschlägt, tötet, verwüstet'; mir. cymr. orn `Morden , Zerstören'(*[p]org-no- od. -na:); abret. treorgam `perforo:', orgiat `caesar' (= caesor), gall. orge `occide', PN Orgeto-ri:x; anders über kelt. org- s. Lewis-Pedersen 387 (zu hett. ha rganu- `zerstören'; vgl. das air. Verbalnomen orcun aus *orgena:); vielleicht hierher ai. Parja/ny a- Regen- und Gewittergott; s. unter <a href="lemma=perk%BAu-s">perkwu-s</A>. Lit.: WP. II 42 f., WH. II 288, Trautmann 215; Vgl.: weiter zu <a href="lemma=perg-1">perg-1</A>. S.: 818-819

Pokorny predates the discovery of Sintashta and Arkaim, and their implications regarding this topic. " Some ornament traits let us to link Sintashta with northwest forest Fatyanovo culture ". ( Oleg Mochalov - Samara State Pedagogical University, Institute for History and Archaeology of Volga region, Samara, Russia ) - The origin of Sintashta culture ceramic / Ceramic through the Millennia: methods, approaches, results - 2008 -. «ШАХМАТНЫЙ» ОРНАМЕНТ КЕРАМИКИ КУЛЬТУР РАЗВИТОГО БРОНЗОВОГО ВЕКА ПОВОЛЖЬЯ И УРАЛА, by О.Д. Мочалов, Stratum plus, №2, 2001-2002. pp 503-514, is his more in depth study. The archaeological evidence of contact suggests linguistic contact as well. Sudowite (talk) 01:12, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Thracian, Mordovian

Here is a quote from an earlier version of the Wiki article: [http://meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Ancient_religions/Baltic/baltic_gods.htm . It was Mordovian, a Finnic people, not Moldovan, a Romance people. Alexander 007 12:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I was curious to trace the error to its source, and here it is: [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Perk%C5%ABnas&diff=next&oldid=25005464 . It was User:Renata3.Alexander 007 12:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Thunderstones

I'm going to expand Thunderstones with details. I just started it. It's already been remarked (I'll get the link) that this may explain even more the semantic relationship between stones and thunder gods. My primary reference at the moment is Charles Fort's Book of the Damned, 1919. Alexander 007 13:47, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

There are also reports of stone-axes falling from the sky during a thunderstorm. See [1]. The phenomenon is unexplained and largely ignored by mainstream science. Alexander 007 13:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Worked stones in general are associated with thunder and a thunder god. See "...it is curious to meet with the same ideas in the most different climates and in districts widely separated from each other. Everywhere worked flints are attributed to a supernatural origin; everywhere they are looked upon as amulets with the power of protecting their owner, his house or his flocks. Russian peasants believe them to be the arrows of thunder, and fathers transmit them to their children as precious heirlooms. The same belief is held in France, Ireland, Scotland, in Scandinavia and Hungary, as well as in Asia Minor, in Japan, China and Burn Lap; in Java, and amongst the people of the Bahama islands, as amongst the negroes of the Sudan or those of the west coast of Africa, who look upon these stones as bolts launched from heaven by Sango, the god of thunder..." ---Seems like there is more than just "the wooded mountain" element here. Worked stones in general go hand-in-hand with thunder gods. However, I don't know if linguists have caught up with the anthropologists on this topic. Alexander 007 14:24, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering whether these associations led to popular etymology or whether the "rock, mountain" forms (discussed in Perkwunos) are directly related. It's interesting, anyway. Alexander 007 15:49, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

The PE refers to the per "strike" association. The word for "oak" is inextricably linked with words for "mountain, rock", no telling which is primary. dab (ᛏ) 15:57, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

It can be confusing. This is probably many thousands of years of mythological associations, folk etymologies, and real etymologies tied up. If anybody ever comes across a thunderstone, let me know before you put in on Ebay :) Alexander 007 16:06, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Bagme Bloma

What does Bagme Bloma have to do with this? 66.92.237.111 05:03, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

it's about a tree on a mountain ('fairguni'). I was not being serious adding it, though :) dab (ᛏ) 10:14, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Asterisks

Why is it that so many reconstructed Proto Indo-European words I've seen begin with an asterisk? Knyght27 09:54, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Because they have been invented or deduced in modern times from indirect evidence, rather than having direct evidence. --Henrygb 10:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Page title

I can neither read nor type the page title (I see a rectangle Perkʷunos). So it should be changed to Perkunos or Perkwunos and redirects used. --Henrygb 10:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur. --Ghirla | talk 10:06, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

I only moved it because someone added the wrongtitle template; ʷ is a valid symbol, and if you see rectangles, something's wrong with your browser, but I have no problem with having it at Perkunos, since, as the article points out, the reconstruction of the labiovelar is dubious anyway. dab (ᛏ) 10:13, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe I'm being dense - I'm certainly no expert - but what is the significance of the "superscript w" (for lack of a better word) in the page title? I'm guessing it's an IPA symbol. So does that imply that the whole title is to be read as if it is IPA? Or something else? I think this article needs a better introduction rather than dropping straight into technical details. Muntfish 10:18, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

It is probably better to move it to a title without the superscript; see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (technical restrictions)#Subscripts and superscripts for details. In this particular case, if it's an IPA symbol, it should be used with {{IPA}} for the benefit of some browsers; however, that (and {{unicode}}) is not possible on page titles. --cesarb 15:40, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

the symbol represents a PIE labiovelar. Go ahead and move it back to Perkwunos, but then the kw will also represent a PIE labiovelar, just in a non-standard way. I had a similar experience at Kwetwores rule which I created at the ASCII title but which was moved to the correct Unicode title. I don't care either way. dab (ᛏ) 15:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

It does not function for me.

Moved page. It didn't render right in my browser regardless of what text encoding I used. I'm forced to use MSIE, but I suspect your average reader would be too. --malber 21:50, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Another name

For Xavier Delamarre, "Le vocabulaire indo-européen" (Indo-European Vocabular), 1984, there would be another name for the god of storm (and war), the form *Mawor, that we find in the roman Mars (Mavors), the indian Marut, and perhaps the latvian Martins.

Thor

I heard that Thor went back to an IE root like ton, related to tonare, and not tar. Could be related, though. Also, this pageonly discusses the origin of the word "Perkwuno" in length, not tar. 惑乱 分からん 21:06, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

That's because this article is about Perkwunos, not early IE/PIE thunder gods per se. Alexander 007 21:16, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

We could have a comparative article along the lines of Solar deity. dab (ᛏ) 22:14, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

A separate article or in this one? Alexander 007 22:18, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

no I meant a separate thunder god article where thunder gods from all over the world may be listed and compared. dab (ᛏ) 22:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that. Alexander 007 22:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

ok, so we have Thunder#List_of_thunder_gods. Imho, this should be split, thunder should be about the physical phenomenon, with a mere reference to thunder god. dab (ᛏ) 22:42, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

PIE * per- ( to bear ) yielding * peru ( brood > cluster )

A Balticist J. Pashka has proposed an etymology related to PIE * per- to bear. He writes " I note Sanskrit Paru - knotty, having joints ( esp. of reed, or cane ) and Lith. Peras - jointed plant shoot ( e.g. of reed ) cluster, as well as white "knotty" or "jointed" larvae cluster, or brood cluster, bear close etymological affinities ( for -as vs.-us, note Lith. Vėjas vs. dialect Vėjus ). This "cluster" could be of stones, clouds, rock, eggs, sprouts, larvae, chicks, church goers, reeds or stars. From the eggs & seeds of PIE * per- to bear, begets the "cluster". That cluster becomes a cloud ( Perunaš, Peraun ), or if rock becomes a mountain ( Perunant-, Paruuatā ). Perūne, Perōni, Peräune, Peraun, Perunŭ, Perunaš are all related "cluster" cognates. GAS influenced Perkons & Parjanya are also related, and especially to each other - due specifically to Volga-Ural inter-ethnic contact. " ( J. Pashka © Virdainas ). It is a alternate viewpoint. Sudowite (talk) 14:16, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Well, I think given the theme of thunder and relatedly lightning, it's much more likely that another *p- root, namely "fire" was related. That does not exclude a relation to the versatile roots around the rather ancient *per- roots, but I think it's notable. Rhyminreason (talk) 23:21, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

What's with the trees anyway?

I'm sure someone has some info on why a thundergod is so closely linked to the oak. Right? --Trɔpʏliʊm • blah 21:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Lightning strikes trees.210.185.166.221 (talk) 07:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)

Is this reflected in the German saying about lightning "[de:Volksweisheiten|Vor Eichen sollst du weichen, Buchen sollst du suchen]" ([in a storm:] don't approach oak, search birch)? Rhyminreason (talk) 23:16, 16 March 2019 (UTC)

Loki is the son of Fárbauti, who is sometimes associated with lightning, and Laufey who is, in a sense, tree. Loki is thus the result of a lightning striking a tree. In a sense. Heiko242 (talk) 19:00, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

Hittite harganu- certainly not from *per-

Hittite *ḫ- does not come from PIE *p-, so it is entirely false to claim that Hittie ḫarganu- is a reflex of PIE *per- or *perg-. Hittite ḫarnink- 'destroy' and ḫark- 'perish' are indeed cognate with OIr orgaid 'slays', but these are derivatives PIE *h₃ergʰ-, with no initial *p- (see a standard reference, LIV, the Lexicon of Indo-European Verbs). There can be no connection with Slavic *perūn-.

I am deleting these claims from article. If someone can cite some *recent* literature that supports the relationship (Pokorny is completely out of date in respect to Anatolian), it can be reinserted, but only with a reasonable literature citation.Rilkas (talk) 01:28, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Article rename (*kw not the same as *kʷ)

This article has to be moved under its actual referent, Perkʷunos (with redirect from Perkwunos, of course, to cope with people almost exclusively typing "kw" due to keyboard restrictions). Proto-Indo-European had plenty of roots/words containing ordinary kw; that consonant cluster is not the same as the phoneme kʷ.--IfYouDoIfYouDon't (talk) 10:16, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Agreed. We have a page named "kʷetwóres rule", so there's no problem doing this. Tewdar (talk) 12:57, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

Perun in the Caucasus?

I'm leaving here literature on the subject, which was first proposed, as far as I'm concerned, by Mr. Leo Klejn in the 1980s. The titles were extracted from: Leach, Stephen. A Russian Perspective on Theoretical Archaeology: The Life and Work of Leo S. Klejn. Routledge. 2016. XX. The Religion of the Slavs ISBN 978-1-62958-138-5

• Yehuda ben Becalel. 2007. Gipoteza o Perune na Kavkaze [Hypothesis on Perun in the Caucasus]. 2007. Chronicler, October 11.
• Antosik, G. 2010. Kult Peruna na Kaukazie: Na marginesie ksiazki L. S. Klejna. Gniazdo (Warszawa).
• Alekseev, N. A. 2006. Perun v vaynakhskom folklore? [Perun in Vaynakh folklore?]. Zhivaya Starina 1:55-56.
• L. S. Klejn. Perun na Kavkaze [Perun in the Caucasus]. Sovetskaja Etnografiya 6, 1985, p. 116-123.

Thank you for all your additions. I helps a lot to easily have access to the publication. Alcaios (talk) 13:37, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Lang tag cleanup partly done

I saw the {{cleanup lang}} template on this article, and did half of the work in marking non-English text, but there's a bunch of it remaining: I made it to the § Evidence section before having to call it a night. There's also verification, especially in the "Depiction" section – in many places I couldn't tell what language a given term was supposed to be in, based on context in the text. This illustrative paragraph (from § Fructifying rains) was particularly tricky, as it goes back and forth between languages:

While his thunder and lightning had a destructive connotation, they could also be seen as a regenerative force since they were often accompanied by fructifying rains. Parjanya^{[probably Sanskrit?]} is depicted as a rain god in the Vedas^{[likewise Sanskrit?]}, and Latvian prayers included a call for Pērkōns^[Latvian] to bring rain in time of drought. The Balkan Slavs worshipped Perun^{[probably South Slavic, code 'sla']} along with his female counterpart Perperuna^[same?], the name of a ritual prayer calling for fructifying rains and centred on the dance of a naked virgin who had not yet had her first monthly period. The earth is likewise referred to as "menstruating" in a Vedic hymn to Parjanya^[Sanskrit?], a possible cognate of Perperuna^{[assuming Slavic]}. The alternative name of Perperuna, Dodola^[Slavic??], also recalls Perkūnas'^[Latvian] pseudonym Dundulis^{[assuming Latvian?]}, and Zeus' oak oracle located at Dodona^{[?? Ancient Greek ??]}.

I was also unsure about some terms that are well-known in English, like Thor and Jupiter and Zeus and Apollo, which in principle are Old Norse (non), Latin (la) and Ancient Greek (grc), but an argument can be made that they're English, especially when written "Thor, Jupiter, Zeus, Apollo" and not "Þórr (or *Þunaraz), Iuppiter, Ζεύς, Ἀπόλλων". I left these assimilated terms untagged.

In any case, the tagging has been done, and while I want to say it's mostly correct, I'm sure there's mistakes I missed. I left some comments in the source in a couple of ambiguous places, also, so somebody who knows the literature knows what to verify. (One can also add |italic=no to where it's felt necessary.) oatco (talk) 01:39, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Aggressive pushing of Albanian narrative totally unrelated to the topic

What is the purpose of this sentence: "In the Albanian language, a word to refer to the lightning—considered in folk beliefs as the "fire of the sky"—is shkreptimë, a formation of shkrep meaning "to flash, tone, to strike (till sparks fly off)" "? What does it have to do with Perkunas? Why is it added here?

OK, they first inserted something about some "Perendi", which might or might not have something to do with Perkunas, no one is objecting to that, but this pushing of Albanian themes totally unrelated to the issue at hand is really stupid in my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.245.227.84 (talk) 06:47, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

"widely accepted cognates stemming from the theonym *Perkʷūnos are only attested in Western Indo-European traditions"

And then half of this page is about the Vedic god Parjanya. Can someone please explain? Is India considered "Western"? Rhosnes (talk) 19:11, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Walhaz which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:47, 1 August 2023 (UTC)