Talk:Joseph P. Kennedy Sr.

"Confined"

The wording, "confined" in regard to Kennedy's eventual state following his stroke and rehabilitation is an acceptable description. There was an objection to it that seemed more along the lines of being politically correct rather than accurate and reflecting the time period when Kennedy lived and died. An IP then came along, having never edited the article previously, and reverted. Discussion really should take place rather than reverting/edit warring per WP:BRD. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 14:56, 29 June 2016 (UTC)

Hijacking this 10 months later. In the same area, Jnoelcook added this cn. I don't see why that needs a citation any more than the numerous other uncited but widely accepted and uncontroversial things in the article. The man couldn't talk after the stroke, let alone get up out of his wheelchair. It's not quite "sky is blue", but it's close. If Jnoelcook really feels a cite is needed for something like this, I think they should do the legwork. If they are ref-challenged, they can drop a link here and I'm sure someone will be willing to code the citation. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:08, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Lobotomy

Coming fresh to this article, the fourth paragraph of the lead, focussed entirely on Rosemary's lobotomy, seems very oddly placed. While a tragedy for Rosemary, and an indicator of Joe's unsympathetic approach, it hardly seems one of the major facts of a very full life. The events are fully covered later in the article in the Marriage and family section, but I do wonder whether it warrants such prominence in the lead. I see this was the subject of discussion back in 2013, so rather than just edit it, I thought I'd raise it here. KJP1 (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2018

In the "Ambassador To The United Kingdom" section, delete the "to" before the quote due to redundancy and grammatical incorrectness:

... in order to "to bring about a better understanding between the United States and Germany".

should read as:

... in order "to bring about a better understanding between the United States and Germany". 68.134.157.81 (talk) 06:28, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

 Done Elected to remove the second "to" instead, so we don't split the "in order to". Reads better that way. Thanks. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:35, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Proof Joe Kennedy was a Bootlegger

Read:[1] See "Iced: The Story of Organized Crime in Canada By Stephen Schneider pp. 207-9 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gaamain (talk • contribs) 01:15, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

The cited text says that one former employee "heard anecdotes, rumors, and stories" --But Kennedy's enemies for 90 years and been unable to find anything more substantial than old rumors. In the Canadian Royal Commission case a very different person was involved--a much older Canadian named Daniel Joseph Kennedy who spent his life in Canada. David Nasaw says "The Joseph Kennedy of Joseph Kennedy Ltd. was not, however, Joseph P. Kennedy of Brookline, but Daniel Joseph Kennedy of 1119 Nelson Street, Vancouver." see https://books.google.com/books?id=EGrvgTj4Xh8C&pg=PT69 Rjensen (talk) 14:18, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Kennedy's Private Relationship With Coughlin Didn't Match Public "Disputes"

It can easily be argued that the "disputes" were nothing more than a political stunt.2601:447:4101:41F9:65DC:560F:EE83:B438 (talk) 01:24, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

which RS makes that statement??? Rjensen (talk) 01:27, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Children of JFK and Jackie

This page states that JFK and Jackie O. had 4 children. I only know of 2.
Thanks,
Amy Singstock — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.250.101.186 (talk) 01:18, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Arabella, who was stillborn, Patrick, who died at 2 days, JFK Jr, and Caroline. KJP1 (talk) 06:11, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

Thankfully, no, the article doesn't call her "Jackie O." in that context. ―Mandruss ☎ 00:57, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Jackie was pregnant 5x. She had a miscarriage in 1954, a stillbirth in 1956, Caroline in 1957, John in 1960, & Patrick in 1963. I don't know where this 'Arabella' thing originated, but I've yet to have seen definitive proof that this was the intended name for the stillborn daughter, & I wish people would stop using it. Roman Catholics do not name stillborn children because a dead child cannot be christened as its soul has already departed its body. The gravestone says 'Baby Girl Kennedy' on it. ScarletRibbons (talk) 07:26, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that the Arabella thing was in doubt until I read this. I looked at the JFK and Jackie articles, and, other reasoning about Roman Catholics aside, the sourcing is weak at best. The JFK article cites no source, and Jackie's cites two sources that are not readily accessible and therefore can't easily be evaluated. Under normal circumstances, I would probably remove both instances as unsourced or insufficiently sourced. But that's sure to require far more time and energy investment in defending the removal, the Kennedys being such an emotional subject for so many, and my time and energy are pretty much tapped elsewhere right now.

You might want to at least raise the issue at Talk:John F. Kennedy and see what happens. If you do, I'd suggest you limit your comments to sourcing (verifiability) and avoid discussion about Roman Catholicism. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:58, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Sources

The article needs more sources and inline citations. It has been tagged accordingly. SunCrow (talk) 06:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Joseph Patrick Kennedy not Joseph Patrick Kennedy Sr

I was wrong to repeatedly edit JPK’s name in lead, aka edit war. I am raising the topic here in JPK’s WP page. I know that some may refer to him as Joseph Patrick Kennedy Sr. But referring to father and son as Joseph Sr. & Joseph Jr. is actually something that is done while they are alive. The patriarch of the Kennedys was named Joseph Patrick Kennedy not Joseph Patrick Kennedy Sr. His son was Joseph Patrick Kennedy Jr. He is also the namesake of his grandson (RFK’s son) Joseph Patrick Kennedy II as well as JPK II’s son Congressman Joseph Patrick Kennedy III. There is precedent for the names of prominent men who named their son “Junior.” President John F. Kennedy had a son John F. Kennedy Jr. but JFK is not referred to in his WP page as John F. Kennedy Sr. His brother Senator Robert F. Kennedy has a son Robert F. Kennedy Jr. but RFK is not referred to in his WP page as Robert F. Kennedy Sr. The same thing for Edward “Ted” Kennedy who has a son Edward “Ted” Kennedy Jr. The current president of the United States Donald J. Trump has a son Donald J. Trump Jr. Donald J. Trump is not referred to in his WP page as Donald J. Trump Sr. NapoleonX (talk) 05:38, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Joe Kennedy's Defeatism

The article cites a source dated November 10, 1940, for Kennedy's comment about democracy being finished in England. It then suggests that FDR called him home and had him make a speech in favor of his reelection. That cannot be accurate, because the 1940 presidential election was held on November 5, 1940.71.223.81.114 (talk) 06:37, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Correct, and see below under 'Recall from London'. He was not in fact recalled, that's a myth, he deserted his post. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:46, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Requested clarification of dates surrounding recall in 1940

The chronology of the Recall section is a bit confusing. It seems to suggest that the order of events was:

1. Kennedy gives a quote in the Boston Sunday Globe stating "Democracy is finished in England. It may be here" (November 10th, 1940)
2. Kennedy is recalled from his post (possibly before November 1st, 1940?)
3. Kennedy gives a speech supporting FDR's re-election (some time before November 5th, 1940, as that was the date of the election October 29th, 1940 per [2])
4. Kennedy submits his resignation after FDR's re-election (some time after November 5th, 1940)

The date listed on his infobox for the end of the ambassadorship is October 22nd, 1940, which is also what the US Embassy website says. I guess maybe it's ambiguous whether the end of the tenure coincides with the resignation or the recall, but I think in other cases, recalling an ambassador would not necessarily be the end of their term.

Something about this timeline is a bit nonsensical, since the quote about democracy being finished was printed after the presidential election. Is anyone able to clarify the order of events more clearly? Perhaps the Globe interview was printed significantly after it was given? I'm not sure. 74.85.92.237 (talk) 08:47, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

I got ahold of a copy of Nasaw's book. It suggests that the "Democracy is finished" quote was uttered on November 9th, and printed on November 10th (Nasaw p. 498). This was after the election, and after Kennedy had already offered to resign on November 6th (Nasaw p. 496). So I think the real chronology is something closer to the following:

1. October 22nd - Kennedy leaves London, but is still the ambassador (Nasaw p. 485)
2. approx. October 26th - Kennedy meets with FDR
3. October 29th - Kennedy gives a speech supporting Roosevelt
4. November 5th - Election day, FDR wins
5. November 6th - Kennedy offers resignation, FDR asks to wait until there is a replacement (Nasaw p. 496)
6. November 9th - "Democracy is finished" quote, printed the following day. Shitstorm ensues.
7. December 1st - Kennedy offers resignation for the second time, FDR accepts with the provision that he stays on until a replacement is confirmed (Nasaw p. 503).

Two takeaways from this:

first, it's not possible for "When the White House read his quotes, it became clear that Kennedy was completely out of step with Roosevelt's policies" to be referring to the "Democracy is finished" quote. This section could hopefully be expanded to show which quotes were objectionable to the White House, since the implication (incorrectly) seems to be that it refers to the November 10th disaster.

second, an October 22nd, 1940 end date for Kennedy's service as ambassador seems incorrect, even though that's what the US embassy website says. I'm not sure how Wikipedia generally handles ambassador end dates, but the effective date of resignation seems more appropriate than date of recall. Let me know if there's some other precedent for this. 74.85.92.237 (talk) 13:06, 11 March 2022 (UTC)

My apologies for my belated response, but here's the way I see it. It's likely that Mr. Kennedy left London, perhaps on vacation, but the President's recall occurred after Mr. Kennedy left his post, somewhere in the U.S. Moreover, it's highly likely that the article itself, with its comments, would have required pre-approval by the White House, and so they would have been known to the White House prior to publication. Ultimately, if State says it, I won't disagree, but perhaps some clarification might be needed, if others have noted this, too. — Javert2113 (Siarad.|¤) 21:44, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Shirley Temple

Insiders at ProPublica have been saying great things about Shirley's hard-fought relationship with Joseph. -John Potti — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.47.217.214 (talk) 15:02, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Politician?

Discusion of whether or not not there is any correctness (which appears in the current article version at time of writing, October 2023) of Kennedy's description as a "politician". Lcb500 (talk) 23:49, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

J Kennedy Sr never served in a single elected, political position during his lifetime and as far as I am aware he never stood to become an elected politician.

A politician in a democratic nation, and clearly, certainly in the United States of America, is understood to be an elected representative of the public.

Kennedy's roles were never actually politician's roles. They were diplomatic roles or high ranking positions in the Federal Civil Service.

Therefore it is completely incorrect to label Kennedy as a politician in his article. Referring to those positions and his time in those positions he should be described as a Diplomat and high ranking Federal Civil Serviceman.

I have searched the Web for a reliable source by professional authors / editors which labels Kennedy as a politician and I have not found any.

For example, you will go through serious, biographical articles and he is, I see correctly, not described as a politician.

This description in the Wikipedia article is in error and needs changing.

For example:

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/kennedys-bio-joseph-patrick/

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Joseph-P-Kennedy Lcb500 (talk) 23:59, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Eunice Pringle

The article describes Pringle as having confessed to being paid by Kennedy to frame Pantages on her deathbed, but one of the two sources cited for this, Cari Beauchamp's Joseph P. Kennedy's Hollywood Years says the opposite, pointing out that Pringle didn't make the alleged deathbed confession in 1933 because she was lived until 1996. This contradicts the other source cited, Kenneth Anger's Hollywood Babylon II which was published in 1984, 12 years before Pringle actually passed away. Given that Beauchamp was a historian and Anger a filmmaker/actor, it seems like she was a more reliable source. I think it would make sense to change the article to reflect that there were false rumors of Kennedy paying Pringle to frame Pantages. 24.44.151.234 (talk) 15:41, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Recall from London

This source suggests that Kennedy was not recalled at all, but wrote a 6 October 1940 letter to FDR asking to be relieved and saying he was coming home anyway. (Probably just because he was scared of the bombing campaign carried out by his German friends. He'd apparently moved his family out of London -- the King and Queen did not leave -- and became known as 'Jittery Joe' to the British press as a result.) He and his family arrived in New York on 27 October. The notorious Boston Sunday Globe interview in which he claimed 'Democracy is finished in England' only appeared on 10 November. It may have contributed to his formal sacking in February 1941, once FDR was re-inaugurated and didn't need his help with the Irish vote any more, but it occurred a month after he had already deserted his post. https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/article/joseph-p-kennedy-most-controversial-ambassador-to-great-britain/ There may be print sources that go into this a bit more. Khamba Tendal (talk) 19:31, 10 March 2024 (UTC)