Talk:Feminism

GA fail

I am so impressed with the work that has been done on this article. I can only imagine how much research, writing and rewriting has been done. I think much of the article is quite good and that it is nearly GA, but there are still some changes and additions that I think would improve the article.

• The lead needs to be a standalone summary of the article per WP:LEAD. Each section of the article should, ideally, be mentioned.
• Many of the subsections are quite small. I realize that this is probably because the editors are trying to address so many different topics on a single page. However, some of them still need a bit of expansion and there is some space to work with here.

• The "history of feminism" introduction repeats much of what comes after it in the individual subsections on first-wave, second-wave, and third-wave feminism. I would either expand those subsections or delete the introduction. This is true of the introduction to the "Feminism of society" section as well.
• Might you consider including more examples of feminists and feminist texts? I would like to see at least one example in each subsection - it gives the reader something concrete to go on. Many of the descriptions are vague (as the concepts themselves are), so a text would help ground the description. I think that it is also a good idea to introduce readers to the major texts of feminism (I don't remember reading about The Second Sex, for example, but maybe I just missed it.)

• Several of the concepts are only described in relation to other concepts rather than given content themselves. For example, "Postcolonial feminism", "Third-world feminism" and "Post-feminism" look only like movements reacting to other feminisms at this point instead than movements with their own positions.
• "Women's interests and issues" are mentioned quite frequently - always try to specify what these are in the context you use the phrase.
• Might you consider deleting the "Patriarchy" section? It seems a bit tangential to the page and rightly has its own article.
• It would be nice to have more images. The page looks a bit blank right now - what about feminist artworks, for example, or book covers?
• I would delete some of the links under the "See also" section since they replicate what is in the "Feminism" navigation box.
• I would prune the external links.
• What do you think about moving the list of further reading to a "Sources on Feminism" page? So much could be added to that list and a separate page would allow you to do that more easily.

If you have any questions about this review, please drop a line on my talk page. Awadewit | talk 04:28, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments Awadewit, their detail is very helpful. I hope that these issues can be addressed without too much hassle, thanks again.--Cailil ^talk 13:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I've removed the further reading section - my edit summary says moved to List of feminist literature but not all of it is notable enough for there. What doesn't get added will be userfied.--Cailil ^talk 19:08, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I think at this stage I've address your last 6 points - the easier ones ;) - the top for will take a little more time. Also I think even more pictures could be added through the page--Cailil ^talk 19:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay I've now got it narrowed down to 5 issues: 1) expanding the section on The second wave; 2) expanding feminism and society; 3) elucidating the term "Women's rights" in regard to the Feminist movement; 4) providing some more examples of feminism and feminist texts; and finally 5) the lead--Cailil ^talk 20:24, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Marxism and Feminism

I thinkj Harraway does not belong in this section - I would characterize her more as a post-structuralist or even postmodernist. And i have questions about Gayle Rubin, who was influenced by Levi Strauss at least as much as by Marx. One can cite Marx and Engels, even be influenced by them, without being a Marxist or socialist. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:51, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right about Rubin - that's a mistake I duplicated from the Socialist feminism or Marxist feminism pages. I agree Harraway is a postmodernist - I think it was Robert Young who called her a "neo-marxist" and a postmodernist. She kind of sits in-between the two discplines. What we could do is mention that she was influenced by marxism/post-marxism in the socialist feminism section but put her in the postfeminism & postmodern feminism section--Cailil ^talk 19:36, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Waves

I like covering a topic historically. nevertheless, I do not think 1st, 2nd, 3rd wave is an objective history of feminism. The article already suggests it is in part a construct of so-called second wave feminists. I think this is one story some feminists tell about feminism. I sadly do not know the social and intellectual historians who have addressed this but I am sure historians have questioned this periodization. Maybe Joan Scott. More specifically, here is my BIG problem: it is simply wrong to emphasize 1st wave feminism with the struggle for the right to vote. Margaret Sange was as important ands notable a feminist as Elizabeth Cady Stanton or Susan B Anthony, and she is the matron (uh..um) saint of the pro-choice movement; she also wrote extensively about the problems of poverty. So economic equality and reproductive rights are as much first wave as second wave issues. Why are they more commonly identified with the second wave? My own opinion: so second wave feminists could claim that the first wave succeded in accomplishing their goal, and the second wave would likewise succede in accomplishing their goal. Arguably, they accomplished in the domain of reproductive rights wha Sanger couldn't - but US feminists still are far from achieving for women total sexual freedom and control over their own bodies. And the battle for economic equality is far, far from over. I do not know what the solution is: either a separate section on revisionist feminist history, or augment the section on each "wave" with concurent, sometimes forgotten, trends - graft onto the history a genealogy/genealogies. Slrubenstein | Talk 01:14, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Your right Slrubenstein. The fact is I haven't had the energy to really get to grips with a summary of the history of feminism. That section needs to be expanded or augmented, and I think your idea about the forgotten or contested aspects of each wave is wholly appropriate. The reason the history section isn't right yet is because I've been trying to kill two birds with every stone I throw here (which might not be the best option for this article). A majority of feminism sub-articles (ie Chicana feminism or Socialist feminism or second wave feminism) are unverified and in often in need of rewriting. There is some excellent work in History of feminism but there is also some terrible confusion there and I was trying to weed the reliably sourced from the original research in that article but I just ran out of steam with it--Cailil ^talk 01:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I am no blaming you. The fact is not that you haven't had the energy, the fact is Wikipedia has more editors who are experts on Pokeman than on Feminism. The fact is, we need more knowledgable editors so the burden doesn't fall on one or even two. You've done lots of good work! Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

You are right, S, that "it is simply wrong to emphasize 1st wave feminism with the struggle for the right to vote." I added the individual rights concerns of the early first wave, put Mary Wollstonecraft and Voltairine in there, and noted that the suffrage thing was only a major concern for some, and that in the late 19th century and later. I think that addresses your concern. PhilLiberty 22:10, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Phil - your edits are without doubts improvements. But I was also making a larger point which I do not know enough to address ... but I suspect that historians have debaed not just what characterizes the three waves, but whether there really were three waves and whether this is the best way to structure the history of feminism (I would guess Joan Scott has addressed this but maybe not) ... I think somewhere in here should be an account not just of "the" history of feminism, but an account of debates among feminists and historians over how best to study and talk about the history of feminism. Personally, I suspect that the three waves has become a "myth" of feminism with currency because it has political (and perhaps existential) value, rather than because it is "good history." Maybe I am wrong, and even if i am right it is just my opinion. Have you or Calil or others read enough historiography to know? Slrubenstein | Talk 03:12, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Gender-neutral language proposal at MOS talk

Dear colleagues—You may be interested in contributing to a lively discussion (which I hope will form consensus) here. Tony 15:06, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Comments

Cailil asked me to look over this article again.

The article is much improved from when I read it last. Here are my small suggestions for improvement:

• You already know about the lead problem, I gather. It lacks summariness.

• Feminist scholars have divided feminism's history into three 'waves' - Just feminist scholars?

• The first paragraph of "History of feminism" is wordy and a bit vague.

• In Britain the Suffragettes campaigned for the women's vote, which was eventually granted − to some women in 1918 and to all in 1928 − as much because of the part played by British women during the First World War, as of the efforts of the Suffragettes. - This sentence is a bit awkward.

• I believe you already know that the "Second-wave feminism" section is a bit vague. I would place "the personal is the political" slogan here.

• In the "third-wave feminism" section, could you give examples of the perceived failures of the second wave?

• I was unsure why such prominence was given to the Anita Hill case.

• The first paragraph of "Feminism's many forms" is repetitive.

• The largest departure from other branches of feminism, is the argument sex is itself constructed through language. - I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be "gender", not "sex".

• At times, I wondered who the major critics (that is critics of the various forms of feminism) were who you were citing; the article often says "some people".

• I still think "Postcolonial feminism" looks more reactive; perhaps a greater explanation of the concepts listed at the end of the last paragraph would alleviate this problem?

• "Post-feminism" is not as clearly as explained as the other feminisms.

• A copy editor who is unfamiliar with the article might be helpful. There are a few dropped words and wordy sentences here and there.

• The hyphenation and capitalization of "first-wave feminism", "second-wave feminism", and "third-wave feminism" needs to be consistent throughout the article.

• You might take a look at WP:MOS#Images for hints on arranging the images. I agree that a few more would liven up the page.

All in all, a very good page on a very difficult topic. Awadewit | talk 07:32, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks again Awadewit, for what are very detailed and helpful comments. I've harmonized the hyphenation issue by using the hyphenated form (please note that some books use the un-hyphenated form in their own title). I think I've addressed the first 5 rewording issues in your list. Also I've reduced the weight odf the Anita Hill case - I may just remove it all together as it looks more and more irrelevant for this article. I tried to alter the Judith Butler sentence but this was reverted. I'll look at the issue of the number of "some people" in the coming days. The picture layout has been reorganized. I'ev also restructured the Postcolonial feminism section - the problem it has will be solved by adding a new head paragraph--Cailil ^talk 22:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

These are the outstanding issues from Awadewit's list:

1. "Second-wave feminism" section is a bit vague. I would place "the personal is the political" slogan here.
2. In the "third-wave feminism" section, give examples of the perceived failures of the second wave? & the prominence of the Anita Hill case?
3. I still think "Postcolonial feminism" looks more reactive; perhaps a greater explanation of the concepts listed at the end of the last paragraph would alleviate this problem?
4. "Post-feminism" is not as clearly as explained as the other feminisms.
5. Copy editing of article

--Cailil ^talk 18:28, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm striking this list as I (or anyone else) fixes these issues--Cailil ^talk 22:33, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

great free image - not sure if you have anywhere to put it though....

From the library of congress: 1909 photo titled "Policewomen - the woman "Cop" (a dream). Suffragette posed to illus. woman police concept." Here's the link. Calliopejen1 05:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Obviously this could also be placed on some sort of related page, but I'm not familiar with the feminism-related articles and how they're organized... Calliopejen1 05:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

A good article?

Of course, this is a "good" article, the article of masculinism instead has suffered a violent attack! Have I to think that this wikipedia are suffered a slanted process o feminilization? You must to have shame for you! --Giubizza 09:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

What is this "violent attack" you are talking about? Neitherday 15:44, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Other concepts

First off, I'd just like to say well done to however has been working on this article recently. I was editing about a year ago, and frankly, the article was so misguided I didn't have the energy to correct it. (For instance, it was over 60kb long, but had no mention of de Beauvoir). Anyway, now it is looking very good.

One criticism I have however: The 'other concepts' section spends a lot of time defining pro- and anti-feminism. I think we must remember 'WP is not a dictionary'. Articles should only defined words so that a reader knows what they mean 'within the context of the article'. Any English speaker knows what pro and anti mean as prefixes. I'm going to strip it down a bit. Ashmoo 21:14, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

You're right Ashmoo, the antifeminism section was over the top - it was reflecting some of the problems at that article unfortunately. Your clean-up was needed. I did however de-wikify Sheila Cronin - who doesn't have a WP article yet (which was actually wikified by User:SadanYagci). Will be happy to re-do that if/when she has an article though--Cailil ^talk 21:50, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

New lead paragraph

As pointed out by Awadewit the lead paragraph needs work to come into line with WP:LEAD. Here is my first attempt at adding to the current lead to make it GA and FA standard. One or two sentences were dropped for being repetitive. The new section has been italicized

Feminism comprises a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies concerned with gender inequalities and discrimination against women. Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes. Some have argued that gendered and sexed identities, such as "man" and "woman", are social constructs.

The history of feminism in the West has been divided into three waves. The first wave in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, the second in the 1960s and 1970s and the third from the 1990s to the present. Feminist Theory developed from the feminist movement. It takes a number of forms in a variety of disciplines such as feminist geography, feminist history and feminist literary criticism. Feminism has changed aspects of Western society, modern feminist political activists commonly campaign for a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion, access to contraception and quality prenatal care; for protection from domestic violence; against sexual harassment and rape; for workplace rights, including maternity leave and equal pay; and against other forms of discrimination. Beyond the West, Feminist activists and theorists campaign for women's rights in third world countries. Some third world feminists or Postcolonial feminists, such as Chandra Talpade Mohanty, are critical of western feminism for being ethnocentric. Black feminists, such as Angela Davis and Alice Walker, share this view.

Since the 1980s, standpoint feminists have argued that the feminist movement should address global issues (such as rape, incest, and prostitution) and culturally specific issues (such as female genital mutilation in some parts of Africa and the Middle East and "glass ceiling" practices that impede women's advancement in developed economies) in order to understand how gender inequality interacts with racism, homophobia, lesbophobia, colonialism, and classism in a "matrix of domination."

I'm personally unhappy with using a term like "beyond the west" - if anyone can suggest a better term please do--Cailil ^talk 12:47, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this is pretty good. I hate the passive voice and wich I knew who introduced the idea of three waves of feminism - personally, I think it is bad historiography, but i acknowledge it is the main way Western scholars talk about the history of feminism; still, I would feel better if it could be pegged to an identifiable source. About the "beyond the West," I share your feelings and I see no way around it that is not awkward. For what it is worth, here is how I would put it:

Throughout most of its history, most leaders of feminist social and political movements, and feminist theorists, have been middle-class white women, predominantly in the US, France, and US. At least since Sojourner Truth's 1851 speech to US Feminists, however, women of color have proposed alternative feminisms. This trend accelerated in the 1960s with the Civil Rights movement in the United States and the collapse of European colonialism in Africa and Southeast Asia. Since that time, women in former European colonies and other countries forming the Non-Aligned Movement have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well.

Wordier, but as concise as I can make it and I think more precise and informative and (I hope!!!) accurate. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:11, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I like your version Slrubenstein - I think we should use it. I'm not the biggest fan of "the waves" structuring of feminism either but that's the way most books look at it. An alternative which User:Dimitrisdad put forward on Talk:Equity feminism is that we list the history chronologically and then explain the historiographies (ie the waves and the Hoff Sommers idea Gender/Equity feminism) afterwards. Personally I think we could think about that way of writing the history for the history section and use this.--Cailil ^talk 13:33, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! And to clarify - i do not object to using the "waves" as long as we can identify who coined or popularized the terms, i.e. "According to X, ... " I would never use Sommers classification alone, but if it is presented as one of a few major ways of classifying feminism i.d. if it is presented alongside one or two other models, I have no objections. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:46, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I share your view about Sommers's classifications. The weight of her position is not equal to the "waves" concept. BTW I'll look into who coined the "waves" terminology now - it was Marsha Lear who coined the term "second wave" and out of that came the classification of the previous generation as 1st wavers. The third wave was Rebecca Walker's term in her Ms article. So really the waves theory is popular by osmosis--Cailil ^talk 14:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

In the intro, change it to, "According to some, the history of feminism consists of three waves" and provide as a "ref" endnote the citations for Lear and Walker. In the body of the article, mention them by name and quote their original definitions for each wave - that's how I would handle it. (good job with research, by the way!) Slrubenstein | Talk 14:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay it's gone in. Its not perfect (yet) but its a start. I changed your line "women in former European colonies and other countries forming the Non-Aligned Movement have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well." to "Since that time, women in former European colonies and the developing world have proposed alternative "post-colonial" and "Third World" feminisms as well." - I'm not delighted about using "developing world but I'm cagey about linking (even unintentionally & indirectly) the Non-aligned movement and feminism - I see the point but if we have people requiring us to source "Feminism is also described as an ideology focusing on equality of the sexes" it would come under heavy fire.--Cailil ^talk 19:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Before I forget, I'd also like to come up with a very short sentence summarizing the "feminisms" concept--Cailil ^talk 19:39, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, offhand I would say "from Non-Aligned countries" is more in keeping with the spirit of NPOV because it is how those countries identified themselves, whereas "undeveloped" and "third world" takes the view ("standpoint!") of the West. However, the real Q. is how they define themselves. Mohanty uses 3rd world; so does Trinh. SO, let;s change it to Third World, okay? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

That's perfect :) Thanks for working on this Slrubenstein--Cailil ^talk 20:27, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

What about the fact that many feminists are sexist against men

is that in this article. most feminists i know degrade men and bitch about how ALL men are terrible. this needs to be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.18.169.159 (talk) 05:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

abortion is not a right

ok so the lead paragraph says

Feminist political activists have been concerned with issues such as a woman's right of contract and property, a woman's right to bodily integrity and autonomy (especially on matters such as reproductive rights, including the right to abortion

the way it is worded it says abortion is a right. can you guys please change it so it say "feminists fight for the legalization of abortion" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.106.230.196 (talk) 21:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Why don't you change it? Find a reliable source: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy", states Wikipedia:Reliable sources. Or if not, mark the passage that offends you with the {{fact}} template, so the author is then obliged to reference it or change it. If you don't like the given reference, see WP:Templates. Tom 22:04, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

it depends what you call a right. just because the bill of rights say you have the right of hate speech doesnt mean it true. you can never really prove you have any rights. i dont think abortion is a natural right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_right

just change it.