Talk:Ron Paul

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Length

This article is just way too long for the subject. Ron Paul is still a relative fringe candidate, with minimal chances of winning the Republican nomination, and was only truly relevant on such a scale recently. This page reeks of recentism, among other things. I'm going to go through the article and try and remove as much useless information as I can, in order to trim down the article to a size more appropriate for the subject. Yes, I know a lot of the Ron Paul fanboys will be offended by this, but ultimately that's the problem in the first place. 24.83.107.213 (talk) 04:56, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I disagree with your statement. Article length should not be determined by relative importance of the article's subject. Less popular candidates should not be held to a different standard in the length of their articles than other candidates. Especially since this article is well written and researched, extraordinarily well sourced, organized, etc...obviously because there are many people who care about providing this information. Please refrain from removing information in an effort to "downsize" the article so it is "proportionate with the candidate's importance" unless a consensus can be established first. --smileyborg (talk) 18:27, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with the article's length. Even though Paul's chances of winning the nomination are extremely slim, he's become more than a fringe candidate. He clearly has represented and energized a segment of the electorate, somewhat similar to what primary campaigns of George Wallace, Jesse Jackson, Pat Robertson, Pat Buchanan and others have done in the past. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Would you mind telling us under what username you intend to edit this semiprotected article, so we can connect the two and amicably discuss changes toward consensus? Thanks. BTW I am on the verge of a major compression of the Campaign and Legislation sections, as I've adverted here before. John J. Bulten (talk) 22:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I forgot to login before writing that comment. I apologize for arrogantly declaring I would drastically change the article without first achieving some kind of consensus here. Also, I intend to add a brief sentence or two about Don Black (of stormfront.org infamy) and his donations to Ron Paul. I think being supported by the white nationalist/neo-nazi community bears some relevance.CloutierFan02 (talk) 06:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

So much for neutral point of view?

I challenge anyone here to find a Psalm in the Bible as worshipful of God as this entry is of Ron Paul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hosiah (talk • contribs) 22:54, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

An article on Wikipedia with a conservative bias? Not likely, pal. Your problem is that any article that isn't as heavily biased towards liberalism as most on this "encyclopedia" (hardy har har) strikes you as being conservative. LOL! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.0.43 (talk) 00:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Dude...anything on the internet that's not Ron Paul biased? Not likely —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.151.42.134 (talk) 09:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is completely worshipful, horribly biased pap. I'm only in favour of it because anything that helps Ron Paul win the nomination for the Republicans is good for America - by giving the Democrats a pro-militias John Bircher to run against. If they can't beat one of those, they don't deserve to be a US politcal party. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 20:52, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Don't kid yourself, Glory; that's what some of us thought in 1980. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Censoring Ron Paul

Many media networks have been censoring Ron Paul's progress in this current election. Can someone write NON-BIASED section on this in the article, stating that this is part of the reason that he has failed to receive broader attention? I'm sure there are many sources on this, for instance, even though it is almost heresy to wikipedia to cite youtube as a source, go to www.youtube.com and search Ron Paul censored. Thanks!72.213.128.243 (talk) 23:02, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

YouTube is not a reliable source; that's just common sense. If you have any actual reliable sources that make such a claim (not freep or other bloggers), please present them; I'm skeptical, but willing to be persuaded. Otherwise, you come across as part of the tinfoil-hat brigade. --Orange Mike | Talk 13:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

You'd have a hard time proving that the media conspire to keep second-tier candidates in their places, given the huge burst of media attention that Mike Huckabee is now getting. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:41, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

So the conspiracy theory, I suppose, would be that the media are promoting Huckabee as a nominatable-but-unelectable Republican, hoping to sew up the election for the eventual Democratic nominee in the Republican primaries. The kind of thing Garry South pulled with Bill Simon (fat lot of good it did Gray Davis, in the long run). It's not actually absurd on its face. I agree you'd have a hard time proving it though. --Trovatore (talk) 18:34, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

It is absurd on the face of it, because first Huckabee started rising in the polls, then the media started paying attention to him. Before that, Huckabee was relegated to Brownback-Hunter-Tancredo levels of media obscurity, well below Paul. Wasted Time R (talk) 18:37, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, the theory assumes that they need him to be nominatable, so the polls would have an effect on that, sure. --Trovatore (talk) 18:44, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, you convinced me. The all-powerful MSM conspire to elect Democrats as president. That explains why 5 of the last 7 presidents have been Democrats. Wasted Time R (talk) 19:03, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

The theory would also have to explain why the media has switched from promoting nominatable-but-unelectable Democrats, for the benefit of the Republicans (Dukakis, Mondale, Kerry, etc.) to doing the reverse for the benefit of the Dems. --Orange Mike | Talk 19:01, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Look, I don't think there's especially a "conspiracy" to ignore Ron Paul. I just don't think the Huckabee thing refutes it, not by itself. --Trovatore (talk) 20:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)'

Media is not censoring anyone by deciding what they want to report. Censoring is the event of denying someone to speak his mind by the means of threats and coercion hence why the government is usually the culprit. If you have a magazine you wouldn't want everything to be published, you wouldn't have any obligation to anyone to publish anything in your magazine just because you happen to own a magazine brand. Bias it may be but that is anyone's right as part of property rights to decide how and not one want to run ones business. It is not censoring though because no one is stopping the person by threats or coercion from speaking his mind in another way, possibly through other magazines or his own. Lord Metroid (talk) 01:33, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Looking at all that from a French perspective is pretty funny I must say. The whole panel of arguments have been used during the French presidential election this year : one candidate claimed journalists ignored him and were obbeying orders of very bad powerful people that hated him. Others claimed someone had helped a candidate being designated for the election so that he be sure to win. Even if I pretty much support Ron Paul ideas, the whole idea of a conspiracy makes me lauch :) --Bombastus (talk) 22:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

General style and structure

Personal articles separate from political biography

I think all pages on Wikipedia named as a person must be simply biographies of persons. All other information such as political career need to be placed on separate pages, such as 'Politics of Ron Paul´. Thank you! Teemu Ruskeepää (talk) 08:56, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely not. Being a politician is a large part of who he is. Do you want to go to Albert Einstein's page and seperate out "science of Albert Einstein" or perhaps "basketball playing of Michael Jordan"?SJMNY (talk) 06:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Ron Paul advertising

FYI, I've been spending a good portion of today deleting Ron Paul advertising that's been showing up around Wikipedia. The ads are probably being placed because his supporters are trying to draw attention to an upcoming fundraiser. Some of the ads are being added in sneaky ways, for example they're putting ads into an article, by putting edit summaries like "punctuation tweak".[1] They're also expanding the ads to non-Paul-related articles, such as "List of rebellions."[2] If you see more, I recommend both reverting on sight, and also checking the editor's contribs, to see if they've been engaging in similar activities on other articles. On heavily-targeted articles, we also may wish to request page protection. --Elonka 04:09, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

• I would strongly suggest including user banning in your arsenal, if something like that is coming from an account regularly. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a promotional tool for political candidates, is really not supposed to be a promotional tool for party nomination candidates, and totally should not be a tool for promotion generally. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, and even the Ron Paul and Political Positions of Ron Paul articles are a deeply embarassing violation of core Wikipedia principles. AllGloryToTheHypnotoad (talk) 14:43, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

"States' rights"

Libertarians like Dr. Paul believe that people have rights and states have powers. As a constitutionalist he believes that the state and federal governments have distinct and clearly defined powers. This article attributes a belief in "states' rights" to him, but has he ever used that term? If not I believe it seriously misrepresents his views. Nicmart (talk) 04:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

My friend, remember to do a quick search next time. "site:www.house.gov/paul "states' rights"" at ronpoogle.com turns up 9 times he has advocated states' rights in his Congressional papers alone. However, I will grant that his denial of collectivist rights in other cases, and the question of whether "states' rights" is a metonymy for "states' powers", might warrant a little discussion. John J. Bulten (talk) 16:38, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Religion

A fox news debate stated that Ron Paul was Protestant, not Baptist like the article says. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.238.92.179 (talk) 07:06, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Baptists are Protestants. ~ 199.17.28.56 (talk) 07:14, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Also Fox News isn't reliable.12.158.161.59 (talk) 20:50, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

While this is very much a side note, I'd just like to point out that as I understand it, Baptists claim not to be Protestant -- that is, they say they have nothing to do with the Protestant reformation. --Trovatore (talk) 21:05, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Who on Earth told you that? I was raised Southern Baptist, and nobody I ever talked to said anything of the sort! --Orange Mike | Talk 21:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

See Baptist#Viewpoint: Baptist perpetuity. --Trovatore (talk) 21:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Perpetuity theory was not unheard of among Baptists where I grew up (although no such high-falutin' terminology was used); but the more serious preachers I encountered all dismissed it as a pious little fairy tale based on wishful thinking. That still didn't cause any of those I encountered who believed in it to describe Baptists as "not Protestant"! From their/our point of view, that would be tantamount to declaring oneself a Catholic. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:26, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

We have several choices among reliable sources for which one-word gloss to use. I think Baptist is best as I believe it most accurately reflects what church he attends regularly. (No I haven't sourced that.) John J. Bulten (talk) 16:40, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

New record

Ron Paul broke the record for most single-day donations during a primary (old holder was John Kerry), as well most online donations in a 24 hour period. This should be noted in the article. ~ 199.17.28.56 (talk) 07:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, a record of this magnitude deserves to be mentioned here. It should most likey have it's own article as well. Byates5637 (talk) 16:33, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It's in the article already. But the idea that it should have it's own article[!] just reveals a strong lack of sense of proportion and a possible NPOV problem! --Orange Mike | Talk 17:38, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

As a die-hard Paul supporter myself, I concur entirely. Fractalchez (talk) 19:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm a Paul backer as well, but a separate article would be unnecessary and over the top.--JayJasper (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

How about we get the AMOUNT of the one day donation drive corrected. It was 6.026 million; not the 6.4 million in the article. This is from the campaign website. 24.68.242.107 (talk) 10:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Which figure is from a reliable third-party source, rather than the campaign itself? That's the one we have to use as a reliable source, I'm thinking. --Orange Mike | Talk 14:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

The most reliable source is the campaign right now. We won't get solid figures from any independent source until the end of this fundraising quarter. (87.127.104.65 (talk) 22:12, 18 December 2007 (UTC))

If we don't have an impartial source, we cannot include the information. Verifiability trumps bragging rights. --Orange Mike | Talk 22:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Orangemike is correct. I'm concerned that there seems to be a misconception from some editors here, that in the absence of a reliable source, that we might be able to use the "best available" source. But sorry, no, that's not how it works. On Wikipedia, in the case of promotional or contentious information, we have to use a reliable source. If such a source is not available, the information does not go into the article. It's one of the core policies of Wikipedia. See WP:V. --Elonka 23:34, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Although not independent, the campaign has been reliable thus far. Furthermore, not including such a big event over overzealous enforcement of wikipedia guidelines is a bit stupid IMO. Include it, just mention that it won't be independently confirmed until the end of December. (87.127.104.65 (talk) 13:54, 19 December 2007 (UTC))

Question: Am I correct in thinking that we have no source claiming that Paul has the largest one-day total in history, that is, for both Republicans and Democrats.?--Newsroom hierarchies (talk) 02:32, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

The IHT reports it was bigger than the previous one-day record, which was held by John Kerry (a Democrat) in the 2004 cycle. [3] I think we consider the IHT a reputable source? --Golbez (talk) 02:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

I was mostly concerned that people were posting things that the sources failed to confirm. But lest my Internet skillz be called into question, let it be known that I did find a NYT story that answered my question about 30 seconds after I posted that. (Next time, I'll) Google first, Wikipedia second... --Newsroom hierarchies (talk) 03:05, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

EDIT PROTECTED

{{editprotected}} Opensecrets.org is listed twice in the external links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.184.143.23 (talk • contribs) 07:01, 20 December 2007

Well, they are to different pages at opensecrets.org, though. I don't know that both are needed but I don't feel strongly enough about it to remove the link for you. If you do feel strongly about it, why not register an account? --Trovatore (talk) 08:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

100 yard ash

Re: "He ran the 100-yard dash in 9.7 seconds".

Wow, that's a truly amazing time. A world record by some distance, in fact. (The world record for 100m is 9.74 seconds, and 100 yards is a significantly longer distance.)--82.6.32.109 (talk) 18:38, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, my mistake. 100 metres is longer than a 100 yards after all. Stupid imperial measurements. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.6.32.109 (talk) 18:40, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Why can't M.D. be in the opening sentence?

Other biographical articles like Henry Morgentaler (MD and LLD) and Richard Dawkins (FRS) contain titles in the opening sentence. Where is the Wikipedia policy against this?

--RucasHost (talk) 06:39, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty clear here. FRS is permitted as a nobility title. MD and LLD should be demoted in the other article. John J. Bulten (talk) 15:50, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

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Hides behind false caller ID info

Got a call from (617)729-0931 Warranty Activation with a recording wanting me to for for Ron Paul. Why are Politician excemp from the Do Not Call List?