Talk:Stolen Generations

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Page protection need?

This page is being regularly vandalised by unregistered IP addresses. Perhaps the page should be semi-protected to prevent edits by new and unregistered users. Does anyone see a problem with that?--AussieLegend 07:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think we're on top of it for the moment. If it gets any worse, then maybe.--cj | talk 08:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

More vandalism, I second page semi-protection. Atreyu81 01:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I've semi-protected it.--cj | talk 02:30, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Since temporary page protection expired on 23 April (13 days) vandalism has occurred on 5 occasions. I really think this page needs permanent protection from unregistered IP addresses.--AussieLegend 09:03, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Five occurences of vandalism in over two weeks really isn't that bad. JPD (talk) 18:45, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

It's actually under two weeks and it's now 6. Seven if you include P0rk0-2diie4's edit which he/she reverted him/herself.

Even if you are of the opinion that it's not too bad, I really don't see any downside in applying permanent semi-protection to the page, except for the kiddies who keep vandalising the page.--AussieLegend 10:40, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

The downside is it's agaist policy. And it's against policy for several, reasons, I suggest you check out the protection policy Nil Einne 19:46, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

References needed

The section headed "Social impact on members of the Stolen Generation" is not referenced. It makes claims that are either false, meaningless or highly questionable and does little justice to the subject (and the people involved). If it is a legitimate study it should be referenced. It has been at least 4 months. The "results" need to be referenced or removed.--Grinning Idiot 11:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Are you referring to the entire section (which includes three references) or just the first paragraph (which is not referenced)? If you are referring to the first paragraph, then I agree with you that it should be referenced. The rest of the section, which is referenced, should remain.Edelmand 12:19, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

I referenced the first paragraph for you. I wasn't very hard to find on Google Australia. ::So all paragarphs in the section now have citations. petedavo 08:15, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is a good academic source from which this article would benefit:

http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/ahr/106.3/ah000866.html Patrick Wolfe: "Land, Labour, and Difference: Elementary Structures of Race" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.73.22.130 (talk) 16:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Stolen Generation "denial"

I feel that this article is not as NPOV as it can be. Like it or not, there is a significant perception in the community that the incidents in question either never happened, or did not occur on the scale that is stated on the page here. This does not appear to be a fringe view either - just read the "letters" page in The Australian or similar papers anytime the issue is brought up. I feel that this point of view, and the arguments of those that hold it, should be factored into this article in some way.

For the record, I believe that there almost certainly were forced removals of Aboriginal children from their homes during the 19th century and early 20th century, although I regard the estimates of some academics on the number of children affected to be a little on the high side. Lankiveil 13:47, 29 July 2007 (UTC).

I think I fixed that. Fred ☻ 14:39, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I think it is quite debatable whether Bolt's opinion pieces are notable enough to be mentioned in an encyclopaedia, but including letters to the editor is just ridiculous. Letters to the editor have absolutely no place in an encyclopaedia unless a particular letter is from a person or persons who are highly relevant to the subject matter and are the only available source for the particular piece of information. It doesn't matter if a fringe group or a great majority of the Australian public believe something, perception of an issue is hardly the litmus test to use, we should be using verifiable information and that is all, if your opinion differs to referenced information than go out and find contradictory information (from a credible source) and add it to the article, but leave letters to the editor and your beliefs at the door. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 15:02, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Done. Fred ☻ 15:25, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't advise using Bolt as anything other than cheap entertainment, I imagine that he foams at the mouth when writing his articles, and he might bite if you get too close. I'm talking about the views of less insane persons like John McDonnell, Keith Windschuttle, etc etc. I'm also not advocating saying "it didn't happen" in the article (because it did), only saying that there should be some balance in pointing out that it's not universally accepted as truth, and there is a very vocal segment of society that disagrees, loudly, with what is painted in the article. Lankiveil 10:11, 30 July 2007 (UTC).

I fully agree, we just need a better source. Cheers, WikiTownsvillian 10:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I've made this edit to the lead of the article, does anyone have any objection to this addition? I hope that merely saying that the topic is controversial is not going to be, in and of itself, controversial! =) Lankiveil 11:43, 30 July 2007 (UTC).

Is excluding Andrew Bolt's views really NPOV? Shall we just include the more politically correct views only? --Commking 02:13, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

This will answer that question..as to why Robert Manne was forced to resign from Quadrant (magazine) because of this very issue..

“ Michael Duffy (Australian journalist): Martin, can I ask you the same question? Before 1989 Quadrant had a neat role, if you like, a very specific role. What is or ought its role to be? Or does it still have a role?

Martin Krygier: Here I'd part company with my colleagues on the panel. I think it has a very clear and enormously important role until 1989. The end of communism meant the end of an overarching enemy which was relevant at every political level. That meant that you could die and it wasn't an ignoble thing to do, and that's what happened with Encounter, or you could do something interestingly and individually different in a more complicated situation, and I believe that under Robert Manne that was being done. I think that more recently, in a way which is not completely as a result of recent trends, but I think that as a result of the culture...we're a political culture that hunts in packs and there was a tendency once you're sort of pushed to one side in popular polemics for Quadrant people to actually quite like the role of pariah and being the anti-pack pack. I think that that has continued with a vengeance over the Aboriginal issue and many other things in recent years and it has dismayed me and it's why I'm not associated with Quadrant now. And I think that it's...where things are complicated, where it could be that the opposite of a proper position is a foolish one, but that there are many possibilities, many complexities which one could explore, Quadrant seems to me to be a sort of radical simplifier which always finds somebody on the other side, whether they be politically correct (to use the phrase), to be contrarian with. And then people find themselves (or at least I find myself) forced between a pack and the anti-pack and not feeling particularly attracted to either. I think this spirit of dichotomies (I think often false dichotomies) has become dominant and I regret it. (Martin Krygier is director of the European Law Centre at the University of NSW and he's also the son of Richard Krygier who founded Quadrant)

”

petedavo 01:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Currently, Bolt's POV is given significant weight in this article. I'm slightly uneasy about that. We should represent all sides of the debate (absurd as it may be for anyone to deny the historical accuracy of the Stolen Generations), but Bolt is... well, nobody. He's a columnist. Windschuttle may be... uhm, "excentric", but he's at least a published academic, which would justify including his views in a Wikipedia article. Then there's the fact that Bolt's denialism is an extreme fringe view. There is widespread political consensus over the historical facts (including within the Liberal Party), and within the academic world. The fact that uneducated members of the community write to Bolt to support him does not in any way provide a noteworthy counterweight to the consensus which exists among the educated. It's a fair assumption that few (if any) of Bolt's random supporters within "public opinion" have actually read Bringing Them Home, or indeed any of the legislation which formed the basis of the policies behind the Stolen Generations. The political and academic Right does not deny the reality of the Stolen Generations any more than the Left does. Heck, not even Howard denied that it had happened. Howard has expressed his "deep and sincere regret that indigenous Australians suffered injustices under the practices of past generations, and for the hurt and trauma that many indigenous people continue to feel as a consequence of those practices." Aridd (talk) 19:03, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Windschuttle

This article Keith Windschuttle, Don't let facts spoil the day, The Australian, 09 February 2008 says it was all done for their own good and Peter Read misrepresented the evidence - contrast to this Crikey article Dr Naomi Parry, Debunking Windschuttle's benign interpretation of history, 12 February 2008 Paul foord (talk) 11:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Compensation, Labor promise to apologise, SBS transcript

I haven't got time to attend to any of this right now, but here is a useful transcript of a broadcast on SBS yesterday which examines the compensation being paid in Tas, and the RUdd promise to apologise if elected. SBS transcript 22 Nov 07 I'll try and update over the weekend if no-one does it before me. Manning (talk) 13:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Unencyclopaedic content moved from article "Bolt said-wrote-claimed/Manne said-wrote-claimed"

The following is unencylopaedic - the material needs to be distilled/summarised "Bolt said-wrote-claimed/Manne said-wrote-claimed" claim and counter claim. Whether Bolt or Manne provide better evidence for their claims is also relevant.

Bolt has publicly challenged Robert Manne to produce ten cases in which the evidence justifies the claim that they were "stolen" as opposed to having been removed for legitimate reasons such as neglect, abuse, abandonment, etc. He argues that Robert Manne's inability to produce as few as ten credible cases is a good indicator of how unreliable the claims that there was policy of systematic removal are. In reply, Manne stated that he supplied a documented list of 250 names Bolt indicates that prior to a debate with Manne, Manne provided him with a list of 12 names that Bolt states he was able to show during the debate was “a list of people abandoned, saved from abuse or voluntarily given up by their parents”. During the actual debate, Manne produced a list of 250 names without any details or documentation as to their circumstances. Bolt has subsequently been able to identify and ascertain the history of some of those on the list and has yet to find a case where there is evidence to justify the term ‘stolen’. One of the names on the list of allegedly stolen children was 13 year old Dolly, taken into the care of the State after being found "seven months pregnant and penniless, working for nothing on a station".

-- Paul foord (talk) 12:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Taken for their own good?

With the debate over an apology, some politicians have asserted that the children were taken for their own good owing to mistreatment, similar to the recent rape of that 10 year old girl from Arakun. Is there anything on which to substantiate these claims? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.109.135.152 (talk) 00:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't recall hearing any politicians say that. Or any historians, for that matter, regardless of their position within the History Wars. There's some dispute over the history of violence against Aboriginals, but no credible scholar or politician denies that children were taken on racial grounds, regardless of their family situation. Where did you hear/read that? Aridd (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"Some children were taken from their families with good intentions and some who were taken have stared deep into the lives they left behind and concluded they were saved." from [1]. I have also heards this on the news, I can't find any articles with politicians mentioning it though. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Borgarde (talk • contribs) 03:46, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The fact of the matter is that they were taken because they were light-skinned Aboriginals. Some of those children did indeed happen to come from abusive homes. Most of them did not, and were snatched away by force from caring and loving parents... often to be placed in the "care" of white people who sexually abused them! There were a wide variety of cases, but to my knowledge no notable politician or historian has ever claimed that "the children [i.e., in general] were taken for their own good owing to mistreatment". Aridd (talk) 15:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There have been some recent articles in the Courier Mail amongst other papers, (can't find a link yet, will attach when I do, if anyone else finds a link please attach it) but these particular articles focussed on interviews with former public servants whose job it was to act as the official Protectors of Aboriginal children. It's clear that they regarded their job to be to remove children who were at risk in some form. It wasn't just a coincidence that they took children from abusive homes. One described coming to check on a child to find him sitting in a frying pan, presumably for the lack of anything else to sit on, covered with flies and sores, a clear victim of parental neglect. The claim that children were only taken because they were "light-skinned Aboriginals" doesn't stand up to scrutiny when you are aware of the facts of many of the cases; a child "removed" because both parents were alcoholics and left the baby lying in his own bodily wastes for days while they went on drinking binges; 10 and 11 year girls "removed" because they had been promised in marriage to middle-aged men. It's true that there were cases of outrageous unjust removals which mostly appear to have been the actions of individual bigoted public servants rather than as a result of policy but there were also cases where children had to be removed from a loving mother, not because of anything that she did but because the children were at risk from other members of the community, the most recent tragic example being that poor child in Aurukun. Unfortunately there is a tendency in some parts of the community to regard Aboriginals as a group who can do no wrong and all Government intervention as racist. Ideological blindness can be very destructive. Webley442 (talk) 00:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Thankyou Webley. I couldn't have said it better myself. OzWoden (talk) 01:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

We actually seem to agree then, more or less. Of course in some cases children who were removed had been suffering neglect, or were living in very poor and unsanitary conditions despite all the love and care of their parents. This is true, and should be recognised, if only for the sake of truth. Few people, if any, deny it. However, it is also true that many children who were removed had not been suffering neglect or abuse of any kind within their family and community, and were taken due to their skin colour. Trevorrow, for example, whose siblings were not taken and went on to live healthy, productive, happy and successful lives (whereas he, who was taken, did not). Some Aboriginal children were taken from caring families and placed in institutions where they suffered sexual abuse from whites. I'm sure that some of the public servants who took the children honestly believed they were doing it for their own good, yes. We know that others were wracked by guilt and openly protested that what they were being asked to do, targeting "half-caste" children, was wrong. To say that all the stolen children were taken for welfare reasons, and never solely because of the colour of their skin, is blatantly incorrect... just as it would be incorrect to say that none of those children had been suffering neglect or abuse within their own community. Aridd (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

We don't agree Aridd. Your position seems to be that most of the children were taken on racial grounds and a few on welfare grounds - my understanding is the reverse. Yes, there were probably a few cases where children were removed from their homes without just cause (ie. sufficient welfare grounds) - one cannot draw the conclusion however that racism was therefore the reason. The Bringing Them Home report is not a good source to say otherwise since it is composed mostly of statements by people who were young children at the time of the events and who made their statements many decades later and also since it was commissioned by a left-winged government attempting to score political points. Governments can commission reports to make just about any conclusion they want. OzWoden (talk) 07:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

What this means is that, since you discredit the entire basis of the Bringing Them Home report, which is your right, you have a strongly non-neutral point of view about the whole issue. That's ok, too; anyone who is indifferent to it would be heartless. But be sure to keep your personal views to one side when editing the article; all our articles are written on an NPOV basis. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

On the contrary, by discrediting a source I am making the point that it is not a reliable source (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable_sources). By the way I have yet to edit the article apart from adding tags to uncited paragraphs. Also, isn't having a neutral point of view the same as being indifferent (as opposed to for or against the issue)? OzWoden (talk) 08:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It is possible to edit in a POV fashion even by only adding {{fact}} tags, if this is done one sidely for example. However if you have edited the article in a thoroughly NPOV fashion then you should be commended. But this doesn't change the fact that you have a very strong and minority POV and while you are welcome to your POV, you have to take great care not to let your POV creep into the article or into discussions about how to improve the article. In particular, your claim that Bringing Them Home is not a reliable source is absurd and if you can't understand why this is the case, well you perhaps need to get more familiar with wikipedia policies and the content of this article Nil Einne (talk) 08:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Misleading comment in the opening paragraph

The article states:

Questions regarding whether the Stolen Generation actually occurred or to what scale it occurred, remain controversial topics within Australian political discourse.

This is absurd. Nobody denies that the Stolen Generations happened. Not even Howard, Windschuttle or Blainey. Not one historian or notable politician denies it. The only denialism I've come across comes from Andrew Bolt, who's... nobody. He's a newspaper columnist. He hasn't got a degree in anything; he's not a recognised, professional historian, anthrologist, sociologist or anything. He's a guy who gets paid by a conservative newspaper to echo the views of random uneducted members of the public. There is absolute political consensus among historians (of both Left and Right) and among major politicians (of both Left and Right): the Stolen Generations did, of course, happen. And they were applied on the basis of race. Even Howard has admitted it's been one of the darkest chapters in Australia's history. The only "debate" is over the scale, with Howard having accused the Bringing Them Home report of having "darkened" the facts to some extent. But even on that issue, most prominent members of the Liberal Party (including Costello and Fraser) disagree with Howard, and have unreservedly supported Rudd's apology to the victims of the Stolen Generations. Anyway... Should Wikipedia really, in the opening paragraph of this article, be giving equal credit to the rantings of an unqualified columnist on the one hand, and to the weight of scholarly consensus on the other? Aridd (talk) 18:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If nobody has any comment on this, I'll change "Questions regarding whether the Stolen Generation actually occurred or to what scale it occurred, remain controversial topics within Australian political discourse.[3][4]" to "Questions regarding the number of children taken remain a controversial topic within Australian political discourse.[3][4]" I'm open to suggestions on how it should best be phrased. Nobody denies that children were taken -heck, it was still happening less than forty years ago, and there are masses of documentary evidence- so the current phrasing is definitely misleading, especially since it's in the opening paragraph. Aridd (talk) 11:23, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Editing it. Feel free to suggest something better. Aridd (talk) 15:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

How is saying that the topic is still controversial (which is a fact) misleading? OzWoden (talk) 23:21, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

There's still plenty of mainstream controversy about these issues. The fact that politicians are trying to make themselves "small targets" over the issue, as they do with so many controversial issues, means nothing. And we all know that the loudest voices in the academic world are the black armband brigade, academics who disagree with them get vilified, demonized or shouted down. There is plenty of doubt still raised over the central claim of the Stolen Generations, ie that children were removed solely because of their Aboriginality in an attempt at genocide. The statement that not even Windschuttle denies it is untrue. It will be interesting to read his next book which apparently directly addresses this issue. I've restored the original wording with some additions of my own. The tactic of simply denying that anyone who is of any importance disagrees with you is getting old and tired. Webley442 (talk) 00:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You're both missing the point I made. I'm not saying there's no controversy over the extent of the Stolen Generations. What I'm saying is that the sentence "Questions regarding whether the Stolen Generation actually occurred [...] remain controversial topics within Australian political discourse" is absurd. The fact that thousands of Aboriginal children were taken from their parents is not disputed by anyone. Aridd (talk) 00:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've changed "Questions regarding whether the Stolen Generation actually occurred, whether policies of removing children based solely on their Aboriginality were adopted or widely adopted, and on what scale it occurred, remain controversial topics within Australian political discourse" to "Questions regarding whether policies of removing children based solely on their Aboriginality were adopted or widely adopted, and on what scale it occurred, remain controversial topics within Australian political discourse". It is true to say that some people still deny that the policy was based solely on race. Therefore that can remain, although the phrasing of the sentence misleadingly implies that there isn't a widespread consensus regarding the fact that the children were indeed targeted primarily and often solely on the basis of race. It is, however, incorrect to say that there is "controversy" over whether or not thousands of Aboriginal children were snatched from their (most often loving and caring) parents. Nobody denies that it happened. Aridd (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I deny it happened. The fact is you can't name an individual who can show they were taken not because of abuse but because they were mixed-race. The Victorian, New South Wales, and Northern Territory commissions all reported that not only could they not find any cases, they couldn't find that it was government policy either. It's already been shown that most people don't bother arguing with people like you because you've found your gospel truth and the fact that it's not reality doesn't faze you - so what if you can't find anyone who was actually taken from some ideal bush camp (rather than the reality, a squallid home of disease) and loving parents. Your resorting to attacking the other side as bigots and ignorant demonstrates why Brendan Nelson today didn't denounce Kevin Rudd as a lying demagogue but instead meekly followed suit. Why risk censure when you can just go along with it and say a trite meaningless apology for something that never happened? Maybe if you stopped shouting you'd hear the multitude of other voices questioning the reality of the 'stolen generation'. Again, name one. 59.167.133.254 (talk) 05:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome to your POV. What is clear is that your POV is an extreme minority one and as such wikipedia has little, if any room for it on the article. Nil Einne (talk) 08:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm the extreme minority... you're basing that on what, precisely? A poll? Or your own prejudice? Can you cite a source that breaks down precisely the stance of all Australians' views on the matter? The fact remains that you're basing your entire point of view on the highly misleading and terribly composed 'Bringing Them Home' report, despite the fact you can't name anyone who was forcibly taken, and all the flagship cases turn out to be a load of bunk. Even if you found one, that does not constitute a policy. I've yet to read any unequivocal statements from any legislative body in Australia approving the removal of half-caste children with the express purpose of breeding them out. I've read racist-paternalist comments from Neville, sure, but that does not constitute a policy of genocide, nor does it mean children were torn away from idyllic settings and sent to the grueling slave plantations the way Aridd portrays it. 59.167.133.254 (talk) 11:30, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"former Prime Minister John Howard, who refused for over a decade to apologise to the Stolen Generations - a stance supported, polls suggest, by about 30% of Australians" [2] Timeshift (talk) 11:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

And our anonymous friend's challenge has been adequately answer by Robert Manne.[3] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter Ballard (talk • contribs) 11:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

BTW that's 30% who don't want to apologise, not 30% who deny it happened. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I didn't miss your point, Aridd; I simply think you are flat out wrong. It is true that no-one seriously disputes that thousands of Aboriginal or part-Aboriginal children were separated from their parents (where they had living parents present) and from Aboriginal communities. The reasons for the majority of separations or removals are, however, still very much in dispute. The very existence of something that can fairly be called a "Generation" a majority of whom can also fairly be called "Stolen" is still very much a matter in dispute despite the fact that a large number of people fervently believe in it and the fact that politicians want to score points or avoid controversy by apologising for it.

The key issues or features of the Stolen Generations debate are that it is alleged that there was a policy or policies to remove; based on race, Aboriginal or part-Aboriginal children and that this amounted to attempted genocide. There is a great deal of scepticism in the general community about that, even if most politicians and academics have learned not to raise their heads above the barricades to say so. The scepticism and a certain amount of resentment over the use of the word "stolen" is particularly tied to the fact that people identified or held out as being "stolen" keep turning out, on closer examination, to have been removed for the usual reasons: neglect, inability to provide the necessities of life (a.k.a. extreme poverty), abuse or to not have been removed at all but were abandoned or given up by a parent or parents because of the stigma attached to illegitimacy in bygone days, because they couldn't cope with being a parent, just didn't want kids, or to give the child a chance at a better life, at an education that simply wasn't available way out West.

There's no doubt that there have been cases where children were improperly removed by careless, overzealous or bigoted individual administrators and there were, no doubt, cases where mistakes were made, e.g. children were assumed to be neglected or at risk when in fact they weren't. In the past, there were fewer scruples about taking kids away from their parents on fairly slender evidence; `better safe than sorry' was the guiding principle and there was very little sympathy and no support for people labelled `unfit' parents. The attitudes of the times were also much more insensitive to the emotional needs of children than those of today. It wasn't thought to be wrong to split up children from one family when they were taken into the care of the State. Siblings would be split up and sent off to different institutions or foster families with no attempt made to help them retain contact with each other or their parents. It simply wasn't thought important to do so, children were expected to just get over it. This was done to children of any race, not just Aborigines. It was also common for unmarried mothers of any race to be subjected to unconscionable pressure to give up their babies and mothers who'd given up a child for adoption were told to forget about it. It was heartless and cruel but none of that amounts to a policy of removing children for racial reasons.

This isn't to say that there isn't a lot of sympathy out there for people who were separated from their families and especially for those who suffered abuse in the institutions or foster homes they were sent to; there is. It's just that the general public is smart enough to know that before you start handing out large sums of taxpayer's funds, you need to check the story being told.

It seems that Keith Windschuttle is about to lob a hand grenade into the debate as he has apparently decided that the second volume of his series is to be The Fabrication of Australian History, Volume 2: The "Stolen Generations". From what I'm hearing, among other things, he has been reviewing the work of Professor Peter Read who wrote the articles and a book back in the 1980's that originated the term "the Stolen Generation" and ultimately ignited this issue. As with a lot of the works on Aboriginal history from the early 80's on, it seems that the original source documentation cited in the footnotes don't actually support the ‘story’ as told in the book.

On top of the issue of historians fabricating history, we had the shoddy work of the Commission that produced the Bringing Them Home report. Apparently they simply accepted at face value the work of Professor Read along with every allegation made to them and didn't verify that what they were being told was accurate. I've heard that the Commissioners' excuse for this is that they didn't have the funding to do the proper checks. If so, the first line of the report should have stated that fact in CAPITAL LETTERS so that readers would know to take everything thereafter with a grain of salt. Even so they didn't ask and didn't allow the obvious questions that could have and should have been asked. If someone was claiming to have been wrongfully removed from their mother at the age of one or two, the obvious questions to ask would have been: "If you were only one or two, how do you know that the removal was wrongful? Isn't it possible that you were removed for legitimate reasons and you were simply too young to be aware of what they were?"

Of course, if you had been removed from your parent's custody at an early age, wouldn’t you prefer to believe that you had been wrongfully snatched from your parents’ loving arms rather than that your parents hadn't been up to scratch?

Similarly, how many parents who had a child removed because of abuse or neglect are likely to admit to it if asked years later? Isn’t it more likely to be: "they stole my child from me", not "I was an alcoholic who neglected my child and they had to take him/her off me to save his/her life". It wouldn't have required any extra funding to ask a few questions but the Commission, however, decided that the Stolen Generation witnesses were too "fragile" to be cross-examined on their evidence. This is why the report is worthless. Webley442 (talk) 13:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

DOCS and stolen "white" children

Should there be some mention how the removal of the children in question was done by government agencies whose powers have now passed to the Department of Community Services (DOCS). Children are taken from their parents or guardians when their parents or guardians are mistreating their children - not feeding them, abusing them, sexually assaulting them, etc. and it is in the best interest of the child that they be removed from the situation.
Also that the removal of children in such circumstances continues today and with the support of the majority of the Australian electorate.
Also there ought to be mention that many children of purely european origins were taken from their families - many from the UK and brought to Australia and many already in Australia - and that more "white" children were removed from their families in the "stolen generation" time period than half-caste Aborigines.OzWoden (talk) 04:27, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

If you'd like to write an article about the British children who were taken to Australia, please do. Seriously. It's an important topic. But be sure your article is properly sourced for verifiability. Please note also that that issue was seperate from that of the Stolen Generations, who were taken specifically because they were Aboriginal ("half-castes"). As you well know (or should know), Aboriginal children were kidnapped not for welfare reasons, but purely on the grounds of race, irrespective of whether they came from broken homes or from happy, caring and nurturing homes. The effects of their being taken have also been documented. Those who were lucky enough not to be sexually abused in their white "care centres" or "foster homes" faced lasting trauma nonetheless. Something which a particularly callous and cold-hearted segment of the Australian population seems to want to ignore. Aridd (talk) 15:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

If it was done under law, as it was, then it was legal and thus not kidnapping (which is a crime - aka illegal). They WERE taken on grounds of being in broken homes, being abused, etc. Please read the legislation.

On the contrary to your statement, Aborigines were specifically NOT taken on racial grounds. Children in such circumstances who were full Aborigines were left with their families BECAUSE they were fully Aboriginal.

Sexual abuse? What about the little girl from Aruka (I think that is the spelling) who was raped last year by a gang of Aboriginal men (including her own family!), because DOCS was too scared of taking her away from the situation since she was Aboriginal and they were afraid of being labelled generation thieves.

I am not saying it didnt happen Aridd, but you seem to think it was the norm. The ones who "speak out", who you read/hear about, are generally the ones who were abused. The media is hardly going to give air-time to someone comming out and saying "I was cared for and loved, etc" - it doesn't sell papers. And, what reason would someone who was loved and nurtured and cared for have to "speak out". By your logic, most people are murdered because thats all you read in the news.OzWoden (talk) 23:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Several points, OzWoden. First: Please do not edit what I write in a talk page! Second: Nobody is saying that the children were removed illegally. I acknowledge that my use of the word "kidnapping" was not in conformity with the fact that these ghastly practices were actually legal. Having said that, however, if you were a caring, loving parent and your child were snatched from your arms by the State because of his or her skin colour, I think you might just call it kidnapping rather than quibble over semantics. Try, just for a moment, to imagine it happening to you. Third: Your comment that "Children in such circumstances who were full Aborigines were left with their families BECAUSE they were fully Aboriginal" is beside the point. Or rather, it actually proves my point. The policies targeted so-called "half-castes" (a "blood quantum" distinction which Aboriginals themselves do not use). "Full-blood" children were not taken, no. They were not taken, because they were deemed unassimilable, and because the prevailing view (at least in the early 20th century) was that "full bloods" would die out. Light-skinned Aboriginal children were taken on racial grounds so that they could be forcibly assimilated into white society. You've proved my point by trying to disprove it. Fourth: Regarding your comment "What about the little girl from Aruka (I think that is the spelling) who was raped last year by a gang of Aboriginal men". That's utterly beside the point. Yes, that was awful, tragic and disgraceful. But it has nothing to do with the fact that a great many Aboriginal children were sexually abused by their white "carers". Fifth: I never said or implied that all children of the Stolen Generations were subsequently sexually abused by whites, or even that a majority were. Please don't pretend I've said things that I haven't said. You've been trying to respond to things I never actually said, implied or thought. Aridd (talk) 00:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

In response to your second point: Firstly you implied that the children were removed illegally by your emotive (non NPOV) use of the word “kidnapping”.

Further, I think I would not call it kidnapping since that would be lying. If I were in such a situation and my children ought not have been taken then I’d argue about justification for their removal (asuming I was a good and caring parent) not that they were “stolen” like an automobile. Asking me to imagine it happening to me is a lame attempt to make me feel emotional and hence trying to get me to stray from facts.

In response to your third point: My comment is not beside the point – it IS the point. Yes the legislation permitted the removal of “half-castes”. Whether the Aboriginals used this biological distinction themselves or not is beside the point (they didn’t study biology or genetics either). This supposed early 20th Century prevailing view that “full bloods” would die out is just about true given the latest ABS data. Your point was that Aboriginal children were removed on “purely racial grounds”. My response to that point was that fully Aboriginal children were, by the same token, NOT taken because of racial grounds.

In response to your fourth point: I was mentioning a documented case of sexual abuse of an Aboriginal child by their relatives and neighbours to juxtapose your inability to back up your claims against “white” carers. I also mentioned it to demonstrate the harm being done today because government agencies are afraid to act, because of the accusations about so called stolen children.

In response to your fifth point: I never said that you said that “all” of these children were abused. You said in your first comment “Those who were lucky enough not to be sexually abused in their white "care centres" or "foster homes" faced lasting trauma nonetheless.” This implies that one had to be “lucky” to not be sexually absused, which suggests that only a small proportion were not sexually abused. OzWoden (talk) 01:06, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I've already acknowledged your comment on my use of the word "kidnapped". Regarding being emotional... It's a matter of having a basic human response. You are a human being. Responding with human emotion to something like this does not imply straying from the facts. On my third point: You've missed the point again. They were taken on racial grounds as "half-castes". The fact that "full-bloods" were not taken confirms this. My "inability to back up [my] claims against “white” carers"? It's in the Bringing Them Home report. Read it. Are you telling me that someone actually denies that many Aboriginal children were sexually abused by whites in institutions? Regarding "the harm being done today because government agencies are afraid to act, because of the accusations about so called stolen children", I agree with you - except for the "so-called" part. Yes, clearly, there have been tragic cases of Aboriginal children in extremely recent times, and still today, being left within abusive situations because non-indigenous people were afraid of what would be said if those children were removed. Of course I agree with you that children today who are being abused by family or community members should be immediately and urgently protected from abusive relatives. What on earth gave you the impression that I disagree with that? Again, however, it is beside the point. One can and should acknowledge the reality of the Stolen Generations without that meaning that children today are left in abusive families. Recognising the need to protect those children does not and should not entail denying historical reality. Regarding the last point: If I gave that impression, then I apologise. I never meant to imply that a majority of the children were sexually abused. Aridd (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Stolen

Using the word "stolen" in "stolen generations" is inappropriate.
Firstly, the children who were removed were removed legally (whether it is morally right or wrong is of no consequence to the misuse of a clearly defined word).
Secondly, the word stolen implies some kind of ownership which suggests Aborigines, or at the very least that half-caste Aborigines are or were objects of posessions - like slaves.
They are not and were not. Therefore the use of the word "Stolen" is misguided - and I suspect an emotional (and hence non NPOV) ploy.--OzWoden (talk) 04:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

We dont care what you as a Liberal think. We care what they have been labelled, en masse, by the media. They are the stolen generations. Who are you to challenge it? Doing so is in itself POV. Thankyou! :-) Timeshift (talk) 02:03, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

We follow this guideline: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names).-Wafulz (talk) 14:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Good link. Timeshift (talk) 14:15, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

This raises another question, though. The text of the apology refers to them as the "Stolen Generations", plural - which makes more sense than "Stolen Generation", since several generations were indeed affected. Should this article be moved to Stolen Generations? Aridd (talk) 15:50, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Timeshift (talk) 00:57, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

So because our (I mean your) modern gods (of truth and all that is right) - "the media" - say so, then it must be true! Of course - silly me!

P.S. I am not a Liberal. I voted for Kevin and his friends. I can see your argument is so sound that you have to resort to name-calling.

My comment was about the misuse of a clearly defined word. How is that expressing a POV? It is a fact (not opinion) that the word "stolen" is the past participle of "steal" which means "to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right" (from www.dictionary.com or just about any other dictionary with some slight variation of wording).

Who am I to challenge the misuse of a word? Let's see. I am a contributor to this website. Oh, and I also speak english and understand the meaning of the word "stolen".

And if you are to misuse the term "stolen" then I agree with Aridd on his point about pluralisation.

Oh and no, thank YOU Timeshift9. OzWoden (talk) 23:18, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

We follow this guideline: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names). Thankyou! Timeshift (talk) 23:30, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

And following a guideline makes your use of the word "stolen" correct how?OzWoden (talk) 23:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Because the media refers to them as that. Whether the media have correctly or incorrectly labelled them is stolen is a nonevent. If you read the guideline, you'd understand why. You have absolutely no leg to stand on. Thankyou! Timeshift (talk) 23:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Read a dictionary! "The media" is not a dictionary or an historian. I do not care about the guideline. The fact remains the word is being misused. P.S. I have all my limbs. :) OzWoden (talk) 23:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, you do not care about the guideline. Thanks for clarifying that. I have nothing more to add here. Timeshift (talk) 23:52, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

A guideline does not define a word that has been in existence for centuries. I have nothing more to add and will not repeat myself any further since you do not seem to comprehend the misuse of the word. OzWoden (talk) 23:54, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is here to present an article on a well-known issue. It is widely known by the public as "the Stolen Generations". Someone looking for information about it would look up "Stolen Generations". That is why we have an article entitled "Stolen Generation"(s). Aridd (talk) 00:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Indeed one would look that up. Why? Because that is what others have dubbed it and so to find articles by those who have dubbed it thus, one has no choice but to search that phrase. However, that does not change the fact that it is a misuse of a plain english word. There ought to be mention in the article that the word is being misused, (and for referencing purposes) as described by Coalition MPs just a week or so ago.OzWoden (talk) 00:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

That is a POV. However, one could validly add a section to the article, in neutral NPOV form, the debate over the word stolen. For the record I still believe they were stolen as do many others. Children were removed from their parents without their permission, I call that stealing. Timeshift (talk) 00:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Knowing the definition of a word is not a POV, since it is a fact. And, if you would call it stealing then you are the one implying they are objects of ownership. One cannot steal that which has no ownership. And finally since you "still believe..." then you are the one with the POV. OzWoden (talk) 01:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It's not up to us to claim that the word is "misused". We can include a mention that some politicians have said it is. This would have to be balanced against the fact that the use of the word "stolen" is mainstream and, on the whole, consensual. It was included in the apology motion submitted to Parliament, which was unanimously adopted by all MPs present, including therefore all Liberal MPs (who stood and applauded; I watched them do so live). Aridd (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

You've said it better than I have Aridd. Pity others cannot understand this. Timeshift (talk) 01:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Just to add in support to Aridd's and Timeshift's points, since OzWoden's argument seems to be a linguistic one. "The Stolen Generations" behaves like a proper name, and the semantic contribution of proper names is _simple_, not _composite_, and as such can't be calculated by the composition of "the", "stolen", and "generations". You might argue that the name was not apt when first introduced. But that debate is just the historical one; there's no linguistic debate to be found here about the current use (or abuse) of the name.--Skubicki (talk) 01:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

That's right. Everyone knows that not every person and every country in the entire world was involved in World War I and World War II. These terms have meanings that are different from the literal sum of their parts. Same with Stolen Generation, and Stolen Generations. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:00, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. Perhaps the use of World in World War I and II is a misuse also. Just because MOST people use it doesnt make it true or correct. OzWoden (talk) 07:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

OzWoden, regardless of your arguements, we have verifiable reliable sources that tell us what to use in the article. The term is in wide usage throughout the media, normally this implies it is in wide use throughout the community. And so, it has a place in Wikipedia. Shot info (talk) 07:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Shot_info I do not believe this is aplicable in Australia given the concentration of media ownership. See [[4]]. OzWoden (talk) 08:11, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The term is used almost without exception inside Australia by many different sourced; media, academic, government etc. Similarly in virtually every other country in this world. Concentration of media ownership is irrelevant since it isn't just the Australian media we are talking about Nil Einne (talk) 08:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you the us of World is a misuse particularly in the case of WWI. But that is irrelevant. Everyone refers to it as WWI and for wikipedia to pretend otherwise is just plain dumb. Similarly Stolen Generations is the widespread terminology here and this is what wikipedia should refer to it as, whatever the opinions of our contributors. Wikipedia is not ultimately about being correct or about the truth (since it is impossible to decide what is correct and what is the truth), it is about verifiability. Nil Einne (talk) 08:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Going back to OzWoden's original point I know that im breaking the golden rule of debating BUT the nazis stole from the jews and other peoples of Europe according to their laws of the time. Does that mean that they werent actually stealing because the law said they werent? Second point OzW said "the word stolen implies some kind of ownership which suggests Aborigines, or at the very least that half-caste Aborigines are or were objects of posessions - like slaves.They are not and were not. Therefore the use of the word "Stolen" is misguided - and I suspect an emotional" OK so what would you do if somebody came into your house and stole...sorry took...your child away? Not bother calling the police because the child isn't a posession and doesn't belong to you?

Soundabuser (talk) 13:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

It's happened, sorry has been said

Hmm... quite a few turned their backs on Nelson (de ja vu). Timeshift (talk) 22:59, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

With good reason. I cringed at parts of his speech. Peter Ballard (talk) 00:42, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Even though you're a Liberal Peter, i'm not surprised. I'm pretty sure it was to please the conservatives in his party who handed him the leadership over Turnbull. Timeshift (talk) 00:44, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

What is with the name calling Timeshift? This is the second time you have labelled someone (the last time it was me) as a "Liberal". Please keep your politics out of Wikipedia. OzWoden (talk) 01:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not name calling. Peter and I talk often. He is a life-long Liberal voter. I am not degrading him, if anything i'm complimenting him on being a Liberal and cringing at parts of Nelson's speech. Timeshift (talk) 01:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Then "SORRY" (joke intended) for drawing the wrong conclusion. OzWoden (talk) 01:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

For the record I have quite often preferenced Labor ahead of Liberal, including the last Federal election. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:20, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh really? I could be sure you said somewhere along the line you preference Liberal first. Please accept my sincerest apologies, swinging voter ;-) Timeshift (talk) 01:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hence why labeling people is frowned upon in Wikipedia and rather than assuming somebody is a liberal voter it's better to assume good faith. Shot info (talk) 02:04, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how Timeshift was not assuming good faith here. He or she has an extensive and friendly history with Peter and he/she made an assumption based on this history not in anyway intended to denigrate Peter or his opinions. As it turned out, he/she was wrong but I see no evidence Peter found any of this offensive or that there was any problem other then the fact it was OT on this talk page and the fact others have decided to make a big fuss about it Nil Einne (talk) 08:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I fail to see how your political opinions have anything to do with this. Please refrain from these accusations. — Dark ^(talk) 05:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Ahhh... refreshing. Why can't governments do this more often? Brutannica (talk) 06:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Watch 'Question Time' on the ABC and you'll see that the Government putting out streams of mind-melting nonsense isn't uncommon. 59.167.133.254 (talk) 06:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Two Standards

There are two standards in Australia. One for Aboriginal children and one for children of any other race. If a child of any other race was not attending school, malnutritioned, enhaling petrol or glue, or being sexually abused in some way, and it came to the attention of the authorities, they would be immediately removed. However, if these same standards were applied to the Aboriginal people in rural communities, an entire new generation would be 'stolen'. We accept this these days, don't ask don't tell has been the prevailing wisdom.

To me, the 'stolen generation' problem came about because the people of the day saw the mixed race childen as 'half white' and therefore applied the same standard...they could not abide any 'white' child growing up in squalor. Their line of thinking came from a sense of racial superiority..nasty stuff, but they were basically trying protecting their own (albeit not very successfully).

The problem is that we have this double standard in the first place, we need to agree as a nation..as to to what the laws governing parenting are; and enforce the same standards on everyone.

• You are entitled to your opinion. However, Wikipedia is not a social discussion forum, so please keep discussion on this talk page relevant to how to improve this article.Manning (talk) 07:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Full text of Rudd's Speech

I am busy transcribing the entire text of Rudd's 28 minute speech from a video. The finished product will be here. Just a head's up in case anyone was doing the same thing. Manning (talk) 07:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know the name of the Aboriginal woman that PM Rudd refers to in his speech? I am listening to the video and the best I can come up with is "Nanna Nungalo Fijo", but I have no idea if this is correct. For reference, see this YouTube video at around 5.33. Manning (talk) 07:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Manning, you are entitled to your opinion. However, Wikipedia is not a social discussion forum, so please keep discussion on this talk page relevant to how to improve this article. OzWoden (talk) 08:15, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

OzWoden, please refrain from behaving in a childish manner. Manning (talk) 08:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Technically Manning's question is OT but he is clearly not using this as a social discussion forum nor is he discussion his opinions so please make your comment appropriate or don't reply at all Nil Einne (talk) 08:23, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Actually I am transcribing a speech that Rudd gave about the Stolen Generations, and I am transcribing it into Wikisource, a WP sister project. As this transcription will eventually become a resource directly relevant to this article, this is in no way OT. Manning (talk) 08:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand that and while I don't think it is OT to mention you are transcribing it, asking someone here to help you with the transcription is technically OT since it has nothing to do with directly improving this article. Personally, I don't care about you asking the question but I would have to say it is OT. We don't generally give excessive special preference to sister projects and discussion only relevant to them, should in theory remain on them Nil Einne (talk) 08:35, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

With respect, "we" as a community do whatever we can to ensure the project is the best it can be, and if that involves developing a resource on a sister project so as to enhance an article here, then that is what "we" do. This is why Commons, Source, and Meta were even created. Regardless, I have transcription to do, so if we can cease debating as to the OT nature of my question (which I maintain is NOT "OT") then let us move on. There is an encyclopedia to write. Manning (talk) 08:47, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

No one said there is anything wrong with you working on a transcription on a sister project. You are perfectly entitlted to do so, or to work on something else anywhere else on the internet which may or may not benefit this article. However what is clear is that this talk page isn't the place for you to get help with the transcription. You are welcome to get help with the trasncription of the Wikisource talk page but asking for help here, whether you like it or not, is OT since it is NOT about improving the article but about improving the transcription which is not part of this article. Most editors including me don't really care about you asking the question I suspect. However since OzWooden complained, I accepted that your question was technically OT (since it is, but no one cares). The best thing for you to do in this case IMHO is either accept it is OT and move on, or don't accept it is OT and move on. OzWooden seems to have forgotten about this discussion and I strongly suspect if you had not bothered to respond this whole issue would have died the natural death it should have. But unfortunately for reasons I don't quite understand you are unable to accept that your question was OT (but no one cares) and see it important to explain why your question wasn't OT, even though it clear was (but no one cares). N.B. Commons in an exception and can't be compared to the rest of the sister projects. P.S. I often post OT things myself. Mostly people don't complain since I avoid getting to OT. But when they do, I just accept the complaint and move on. Just because something was wrong doesn't mean your going to be permanently ostracised for it. It doesn't even mean you shouldn't repeat it. Sometimes it can be good, even if it was technically wrong. Nil Einne (talk) 10:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't think the question was OT. You do. So be it, let's move on. Surely there is something productive for you to do. Manning (talk) 12:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

POV tag

I see the POV tag on the article. It was added by an anonymous person using IP address 58.173.106.45 on the 3rd of February. The person has not made any (other) contributions to wikipedia on that IP address.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/58.173.106.45

No explanation or reason was provided on this talk page for the POV tag. As such, I humbly suggest it be removed. --Bardin (talk) 10:48, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. A POV tag must be accompanied by discussion on the Talk page. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Thirded. POV tag without discussion used to discredit content. Timeshift (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for pointing this out Bardin. Peter Ballard (talk) 11:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Senate and Queen agreement

Am I right in saying that the apology, welcome as it is, is still only the House of Reps speaking, and not the entire parliament? I presume it will now go to the Senate for them to also have a chance to agree with the motion, or not, as the case may be. Otherwise it's constitutionally a little one-sided. When will the Senate consider the matter? Also, since the parliament includes the Queen (S.1 of the Constitution), can it be said to be an apology "by the parliament" if the Queen or her vice-regal representative don't have any say about it? I'm assuming they won't get any say because it's not a piece of legislation (which requires Royal Assent) but simply a House motion (which doesn't). -- JackofOz (talk) 12:36, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey JackofOz! Haven't seen you since the Maxine McKew days. The ABC reported that it was to go to the Senate that same afternoon (Feb 13), but I have yet to see any formal report as to what actually happened (although a rubber stamp debate could be expected). As far as the constitutional side of it, we are back to the clash between the letter of the constitution and practical reality. I'd need to go dig around to see whether or not that combined houses can speak on behalf of the "Parliament" without the GG getting involved. Manning (talk) 12:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Here we go - the Senate passed the motion today. news.com.au Manning (talk) 13:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I've been a bit busy on other things today and this is the first mention of the Senate I've heard. All the news media I caught was totally pre-occupied with events in the House of Reps, as if that was all that was to it, and as if one house could purport to speak for the entire parliament. Cheers. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

70% of Australians supporting sorry

I don't particularly care to get engrossed in this article, at least for the time being due to the large amount of traffic thanks to this article being on wikipedia front page news (2007 election de ja vu), but I would like to see others defend against the removal of the mention in the lead that 70% of Australians support the apology per the BBC news article link, and now that he has been shown, he calls it irrelevant. Timeshift (talk) 14:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"Sorry" to 'bother' you Timeshift, but as this (wikipedia and this article in particular - for this purpose) is supposed to be a record of fact with NPOV policies, I would imagine that some journo in London "plucking" a 30% "poll" out of some other journo's vernacular does not warrant insertion into an encyclopedic article. IF you can justify the use of a hard number (70% or 30%) and prove that this poll has been conducted and it has authority (ie: it isn't you just ringing all your mates!) and has been published, then by all means add it back. That is why I haven't deleted the comment (yet) but if you (or anyone else) can't prove the fact, then it is justifiable to remove this. Bcollier (talk) 14:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

So we don't treat BBC as an authoritative news source now? Damn... Timeshift (talk) 14:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Innacurate Statistic Cited in Support of Apology

There's a statement in the lead that 70% of Australians supported the formal apology bearing a citation needed tag. Every article I see indicates that it would be more accurate to state that 30% were against the apology as I think we can be certain that some of the other 70% were effectively neutral. I'm bad at formatting or I'd fix it myself. Here's a BBC article that could be used. Cheers, Mooney 12.146.184.9 (talk) 14:33, 13 February 2008 (UTC)