Talk:Lord Byron

Lord Byron was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
June 17, 2007	Good article nominee	Not listed

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Archives

Archive 1 - December 2003 - November 2006, including discussions of the name of the page and Byron, use of "Lord Byron," presentation of incest, and presentation of homosexuality

Polis

Friends, does anyone know which Greek city called "Polis" Byron have been in? In Cyprus or in Crete? If you know, plz corect the link to Polis in "Byron and the Armenians" section--Armatura 09:41, 13 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most likely this refers to Constantinople which is "the City" of the Hellenic world. But I have no proof. I don't know if Byron ever went to Constantinople.Argos'Dad 14:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but nope, it surely was not Istanbul, but a city in Greece. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Armatura (talk • contribs) 22:42, 17 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

In 1810 Byron & Hobhouse did visit the Dardanelles 'Troy' & Constantinopolis and, imitating Leander, swam across the straits; according to John Cam Hobhouse's diary at http://www.hobby-o.com/smyrna.php M@T arragano 03:22, 5 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anything in here about Mary Ann Chaworth, but I have heard she was an important influence on his life. Should something be added?

85.117.42.52 07:25, 18 May 2007 (UTC) Christopher Michel[reply]

Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC) "Polis" in Greek means city - it may have been a term to imply any city or town. (Hence the origin of the term politics)[reply]
Constantinople was also called "H Polis" = "The City" - since it was the capital of the Byzantine Empire and thus biggest or most central city of Byzantium. So, it may not be a particular city you are after, but a poetic means to refer to any greek or non greek city. Applesnpeaches (talk) 02:57, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Doherty

I've removed the following line : "Byron's influence also extends as far as infamous British singer-songwriter and poet Pete Doherty who has cited Lord Byron as having a significant impact upon his moral philosophy, poetry and lyrics." It is surely a stretch of the imagination to label Doherty (a rock musician who, according to his wiki article, has no listed writings outside his song lyrics) a poet and philosopher, especially when it seems to be only he himself who is claiming this. If he has claimed it, such trivia should appear under the Doherty article (with appropriate citation) and not under Byron. I don't know immediately know who to suggest, but I am sure there are umpteen better-known and more-clearly-influenced parties who can be mentioned to demonstrate Byron's wide influence. Tobermory 01:51, 9 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hi - Doherty is a poet and has had quite a bit of work published esp. in London underground magazine 'Full Moon Empty Sports Bag'. I believe he also attended a school-trip to Russia after winning a poetry competition. No sources at the moment im afraid, but theyre in the biographies. No sure about the philosophical influence..i also dont think he's suitably influenced by B to be in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.60.98.133 (talk) 13:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA fail and review

This article fails GA immediately because it lacks proper citations:

This article needs inline citations. All disputable claims need to be sourced to reliable sources, in this case most often academic books about Byron. I have added fact tags in many places throughout the article to illustrate what kinds of statements need sources. See WP:CITE, WP:RS and WP:ATT for a thorough explanation of citing.
All quotations must be sourced.

The article has a lot of good information, but its organization and prose could be better. A few sections need to be expanded or condensed, but, overall, this is a good start (the biggest problem is the lack of citations):

The lead is not a stand-alone summary of the article per WP:LEAD: "The lead should be capable of standing alone as a concise overview of the article, establishing context, summarizing the most important points, explaining why the subject is interesting or notable, and briefly describing its notable controversies, if there are any. The emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic according to reliable, published sources."
The "Name" section is a bit hard to follow. Try to retain only the essentialy information and to outline it more clearly.

Wentworth was Lady Byron's eventual title, her surname before marriage had been Milbanke. The Noels had inherited it from the Wentworths in 1745. - I am not sure this is necessary, but if it is, it is odd to end on it because it is out of chronological order.

The "Early life" section does not flow very well. Try to make the paragraphs more of a coherent whole rather than a list of unrelated statements.
"Beginning of a poet career" starts awkwardly; the chronology also becomes unclear because some of these texts you have mentioned before. I would refrain from having two sections about the same text within the "Biography" section of the article. Make it as clear as possible when a book was written and published.

It also introduces the concept of the "Byronic hero" without explaining it at all.

In the "Political career" section, you list a lot of poems without discussing them at all. To a reader ignorant of Byron, this is not particularly enlightening.

Note, "The Landlords' Interest" will not be found in any Byron anthology, it is Canto XIV of "The Age Of Bronze" (1823). - This kind of information belongs in a footnote.

"Affairs and Scandals" section begins awkwardly with "he" - always start a new section with "Byron" to be clear. The last paragraph swerves from topic to topic a lot - it needs better organization. Also, the list of poems is a problem for the ignorant reader.
In the "Poetic works" section, you say that Don Juan is important, but you don't really explain it is about. Since this is one of Byron's most important works, I would suggest saying a bit more about it.
Do not list the attributes of the Byronic hero - write them out in prose. You might think about including an example of the Byronic hero from Byron's work to illustrate it. Plenty of such explanations with examples exist in the scholarly literature about Byron.
In your one-paragraph analysis of Byron's poetry, it is unclear whose claims these are. Because you have no sources, they appear to be yours. You must rely on literary criticism here. An expansion of the discussion of Byron's literary works might not be a bad idea, either.
I would integrate the "Parthenon marbles" section into the biography section. It would work better there since the section itself is so tiny.
I would also integrate the material that is currently in the "Character" section into the appropriate sections of the "Biography." They are oddly separated here.
The "Lasting influence" section is woefully short on Byron's literary influence, what might be considered the most important aspect of his influence. It should also discuss how Byron is often considered the first "celebrity" - this information is available in most scholarly biographies of Byron.
The "Fictional depictions" subsection is a list in prose. Try to codense this material into a few paragraphs, selecting only the most important representations. If there is a lot of information, you might think about creating a "Byron in popular culture" article (see Moby-Dick in popular culture for an example.) All of this material needs to be sourced as well.
The "External links" need to be pruned.
Many of the sentences in the article are awkwardly phrased:

Ex: "Hours of Idleness", which collected many of the previous poems, along with more recent compositions, was the culminating book. (Also any book title should be italicized.)
Ex: While some authors resented being satirized in its first edition, over time in subsequent editions it became a mark of prestige to be the target of Byron's cool pen. - What exactly does "cool pen" mean here?
Ex: Ultimately he was to live abroad to escape the censure of British society, where men could be forgiven for sexual misbehaviour only up to a point, one which Byron far surpassed.
Ex: In 1816 Byron visited Saint Lazarus Island in Venice where he acquainted himself with Armenian culture by the Mekhitarist Order. - Doesn't make sense.
Ex: His profound lyricism and ideological courage has inspired many Armenian poets, the likes of Fr. Ghevond Alishan, Smbat Shahaziz, Hovhannes Tumanyan, Ruben Vorberian and others. - What is "ideological courage"?
Ex: Byron employed a fire-master to prepare artillery and took part of the rebel army under his own command and pay, despite his lack of military experience, but before the expedition could sail, on 15 February 1824, he fell ill, and the usual remedy of bleeding weakened him further. - Too much for one sentence. Awadewit | talk 19:37, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No mention of his swim across the Dardanelles?

Middle name

So why isn't this as George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron; as it used to be? Using George Byron, without the middle name, is unusual. I propose to move it back. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:14, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Far too many peer articles take out the middle name for no good reason. john k 18:24, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The move was apparently made by Phoe nearly a year ago with no discussion. john k 18:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'll be bold, then. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:04, 31 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move to George Gordon Byron?

I don't think Wikipedia's style is to include honorific titles in the person's name (unless it's the best way to disambugiate the title)

George Gordon Byron is enough to uniquely identify the person. I think the article should be moved to that name, and leave the "6th Baron Byron" in bold as the full person's name in the first sentence of the introductory paragraph. 24.83.195.130 09:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

He is almost universally known to history and art as 'Lord Byron'. Why should the wikipedia set up its own claims as to proper modes of address? Is it because most of the contributors are American and have a cultural POV about the use of titles? Colin4C 18:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a claim as to "proper" address - and I can do without the personal attack on Americans. It is general Wikipedia policy (including in UK articles, and I believe in non-English language wikis as well) that honorifics are not used in article titles. Better to just use the name. For instance, "Muhammad" instead of "The Prophet Muhammad", "Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom" instead of "Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and of Her other Realms and Territories Queen, Head of the Commonwealth, Defender of the Faith", "Ivan IV of Russia" instead of "Ivan the Terrible", "Mao Zedong" instead of "Chairman Mao" - heck, even "Palpatine" instead of "Emperor Palpatine".

Now substantive titles are ok, since it's essentially part of the name in that case. "Charles, Prince of Wales" is used, for instance. In my opinion, this article really should be under "George Gordon, Lord Byron". You may wish to check the guidelines and see if you feel my interpretation is correct, as there's ambiguity in the guide.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_%28names_and_titles%29

Vonspringer (talk) 18:29, 5 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Date of Death - Julian or Gregorian?

At the time of Byron's death, Greece was still using the Julian (Old Style) calendar, which at that time had a 12-day discrepancy from the Gregorian (New Style). Is "19 April" shown as it was in Greece, ie. an Old-Style date that would be equivalent to 1 May in the rest of Europe; or did he die on 7 April under the Old-Style calendar and it has already been converted to 19 April in the Gregorian? Whichever is the case, I think we should make a note of it for inquisitive people like me. -- JackofOz 04:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Applesnpeaches (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I was under the impression that the time discrepancy was 13 days. Applesnpeaches (talk) 03:03, 14 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Name section

The Name section, which leads off the body of the article is confused. First rule of biography, do *not* discuss characters not yet introduced. WHO are these people? We're treated to an exhaustive enumeration of his names in regard to people in his ancestral table, whom we don't yet know. Either the name section should *follow* where they are all introduced in his bio, or it should be a footnote to the appropriate bio area. Wjhonson (talk) 19:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Edward III descendent

I've removed this irrelevancy. Show me *any* anciently descended family, still in power in England in the 18th century who did *not* descend from Edward 3. I don't think you can, so this quip doesn't add anything, and it makes it seem like this claim is unusual or notable, when it's not. Wjhonson (talk) 20:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sergical monster, indeed!

I removed this:

"Another popular work of Byron, The Travels of the Sergical Monster, follows the sequel of his college Marry Shelley's Frankenstein ..."

Apart from being bad English, I believe it's hogwash though it might be inspired by some fictional treatment like Bride of Frankenstein.

Agger (talk) 18:10, 4 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bisexuality; shouldn't we include him within the category of LGBT writers?

Byron was clearly bisexual. At least for the first 36 years of his life. I say add him to the group. Thoughts? -FM (talk) 07:34, 17 February 2008 (UTC)-FM[reply]