Talk:University of Notre Dame

Fair use rationale for Image:NotreDameSeal.png

Image:NotreDameSeal.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 08:00, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Notre Dame Leprechaun.png

Image:Notre Dame Leprechaun.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:51, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Changes

I was working on improving this article on a subpage of mine for a few weeks before Christmas, and decided that I probably did most of what I could do by now. I mostly just worked with the Manual of Style and integrated the "Reputation" list into prose (I think I got everything that I could find references) and added history and alumni sections. Anyway, I feel that there is still much that could be added (I skipped a lot of history from 1921-1972, the research section could be expanded, and so could the campus section) but it all needs to be referenced. I tried to (somewhat) follow the layout of the currently-Featured Article Michigan State University, so that and other Featured Articles in Category:FA-Class Universities articles could be referenced to improve the article anymore. Phydend (talk) 15:52, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

images

I removed the wordmark from the infobox today per the non-free content criteria. Criterion 3a reads, "As few non-free content uses as possible are included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole. Multiple items are not used if one will suffice; one is used only if necessary." Both the seal and the wordmark serve only to identify the university. Since they do the same thing, one can suffice. Cheers! Esrever ^(klaT) 18:48, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, that makes a lot of sense. I only added the image because someone had uploaded it and added a Fair Use Rationale without adding it to the article. I think, though, under the same rationale, that Image:Notre Dame Leprechaun.png should be removed also. There is already an image of the "interlocking ND" that represents the sports teams, so the leprechaun seems too much, especially since there is an article about the leprechaun with the image on it. Thoughts on this? Phydend (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Though not part of this review, I favor your solution here. Before reading this article, I thought ND's colors were green! Amerique^dialectics 02:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

GA Review, in progress

Noting things that I come across that I don't have the time or inclination to fix myself here. This review on my part will proceed over three days, and I'll allow a week afterwards for any corrections or arguments to be made in response to my observations here before passing or failing this article. Amerique^dialectics 01:37, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Run-on sentence, punctuation, italics problems: "While the school has been criticized for its slow response to the needs of homosexual students - The Princeton Review ranks the university highly among schools at which "Alternative Lifestyles [are] Not an Alternative",[89] it has been commended by publications such as Hispanic Magazine - ranking the university ninth on its list of the top–25 colleges for Latinos - and the "Journal of Blacks in Higher Education" for raising the graduation rates of its African-American students." (Also, where has it been criticized, and what do Hispanics and African Americans have to do with this in particular?) Amerique^dialectics 01:10, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Section structure is a bit confusing. The first paragraph of "Academics" contains information pertaining to the student body, while the section labeled "Studies" contains information I would expect to see lead an "Academics" section. Amerique^dialectics 01:20, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Per WP:MOS "Numbers that begin a sentence are spelled out as words," also, this sentence is clunky: "21 of these teams compete in the Big East Conference, while football is Independent, both fencing teams are in the Midwest Fencing Conference, the hockey team is in the Central Collegiate Hockey Association, and the men's lacrosse team is in the Great Western Lacrosse League. Amerique^dialectics 01:29, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• I fixed some syntax on this, but ADs don't typically "lead" sports teams, unless they are the coach of one. It may be too much detail in any case: "Today the sports teams have been led by athletic director Kevin White since 2000.[131]" Amerique^dialectics 02:21, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Under University_of_Notre_Dame#Co-educational_institute, the article discusses the development of ND through the twentieth century, and introduces the admission of women in the 1970s in a way that implies further campus development ceased or in some way was affected by that. (Although, in that vein, it may be interesting to discuss what impact Title IX regulations had on the school's athletic programs. Perhaps further campus development did cease as a consequence of the money that was diverted from men's athletics!) Amerique^dialectics 02:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• I've fixed some of the things mentioned here and wanted to mention them in case they were controversial changes. On the first point, I changed the structure of the sentence and added a reference other than The Princeton Review that criticizes the school for its lack of diversity in many areas. Additionally, I split the sentence into two sentences, one on the criticisms and the other on the commendations (I also added another reference that actually mentions the Journal of Blacks in Higher Education commending the school. I made the studies section a sub-section of the academics section, and moved most of the information about students to that section (I left the total number of students there because of the faculty ratio, but that might not be that important and could probably be removed). I haven't looked at the other points yet, but will do so later if no one else works on them. Phydend (talk) 16:14, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

As I read the article cited, the author was not criticizing ND for its "lack of diversity," but for "restrictions and quasi-oppressive policies deemed necessary... to maintain the Catholic character of the university." Examples she offered being the absence of coed dorms, the banning of Billy Joel for his song lyrics, and the denial of official club status to a group called "Gays and Lesbians of Notre Dame and Saint Mary's," among other incidents. Georgetown University has a section that might provide a model for how to handle this sort of controversial information here: Georgetown_University#Jesuit_tradition. Amerique^dialectics 02:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, re: section structure, Georgetown's seems to be clearer. There doesn't seem to be an obvious reason to hold on to the "Studies" label. I would lead Academics, following that brief intro that's there, with "Colleges," "Graduate and professional schools," "Libraries" then the rest, unchanged. Amerique^dialectics 03:22, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Some requests for clarification from the history section:

• “According to correspondence of the early French Jesuit missionaries, one of the first missions in northern Indiana was founded for the neighboring Potawatomi and Miami Indians on the St. Joseph River in about the year 1685.”

Was the mission founded before the chapel was built? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “This chapel was still standing when Father Sorin, a French Holy Cross Priest, came to Notre Dame in 1842.”

What happened to the orphan asylum? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “Historical studies have shown that the Potawatomi Indians, partly because of the strong faith of Leopold Pokagon, also played an integral role in the founding of Notre Dame, with Pokagon appealing the bishop to send him a Catholic priest to help convert his tribe.”

Did the Bishop send Fr. Sorin up for this purpose? Did ND educate Indians? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “Sorin began the school using Badin's old log chapel to house his priests and students, and slowly began to build his own additions to the university.”

According to Fr. Jenkin's inaugural address, which I read to gain some context into all of this, there is a far more interesting story here. Fr. Sorin had 300 dollars to build ND in two years or the land title would revert back to the Church. Although I don't immediately see how the Congregation of the Holy Cross was an entity legally distinct from the Church. Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• “More students attended the college and the first degrees were awarded in 1849.”

How many students first entered the college?

• Sort of an obvious question, but what role, if any, does the Congregation of the Holy Cross still play in governing the university? Amerique^dialectics 20:59, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• With regards to the early missionary presence, it may be outside of the scope of this article, but it would be interesting to discuss what impact the French and Indian Wars had on the decision to build the university in Indiana. Amerique^dialectics 21:24, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

• Although I am not a sports guy, I've been reading Shake Down the Thunder: The Creation of Notre Dame Football just because all I knew about ND prior to reading this article, apart from the fact it's a prominent Catholic university, was that it featured until recent times a hugely successful football team. However, had I not known that myself, (and probably everyone in the English speaking world is at least vaguely aware of this) I wouldn't have been able to especially discern or appreciate the significance to the university of this fact from reading this article. The way athletics is presented in this article, I would say, would qualify as "good" for an article about any other university without a program like Notre Dame's. But for an article about Notre Dame, where athletics played such a central role in the university's cultural and capital development, it seems like sacrilege to neglect how, for instance, the early ND was an ecumenical institution with an open admissions policy that admitted Protestants and Jews, and how the early Protestants were the one's who got the culture of football going at the school. Especially how ND was twice denied admission to the "Western Conference" on "theological grounds" that the athletic programs answered to priests, and how the university was forced to schedule creatively outside of its region and in doing so became even more well-known on a national level. Also, ND acted as headquarters of the C.S.C. in America; ND's president was the superior of the order, shouldn't this be given some weighty mention in the governance section of the article? Amerique^dialectics 08:04, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

• Here is something else that seems neglected: Apparently, in 1924, some Notre Dame students got it on with the Klan.Notre Dame Vs. The Klan: How the Fighting Irish Defeated the Ku Klux Klan Amerique^dialectics 23:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok, so I've stuck some questions I've answered to my own satisfaction here. As the article stands, I think it's close to passing GA, but obviously a lot of work could be done on sports in relation to ND's development through the 20th century, not to mention the development of the governance structure of the university. In addition to that, the potential POV problems as pertaining to the admission of women in the 1970s and student/alumni criticism of the university today are primarily what is keeping me from passing the article as it stands right now. Again, I'll leave a week for any edits or arguments to be made in response to this review before passing or failing this article. Holler at me if you have any questions. The article looks great otherwise. Regards, Amerique^dialectics 02:19, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

rankings

Hmm.. Article seems to leave out rankings where Notre Dame didn't do so well or didn't even place, namely international ones by Newsweek, Shanghai Jiao Tong, Times Higher Education, Newsweek etc. 128.83.167.129 (talk) 22:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)