Talk:Omar Khadr

The Firefight

It's described as a six-man team that entered the "mud compound", isn't it? So that's Christopher Speer, Special Forces Sgt. Layne Morris, Scott Hansen (who was awarded a Bronze Star for his actions during the firefight), Major Mike Silver and...two unknowns?

Also, it's worth noting that Mike Silver reported in April 2007 that ""I came to a wall, heard a noise that sounded like a gunshot," when the troops moved towards the house, just before the grenade appeared. I don't want OR in the article, but the talk page is a good place for speculating on how that fits into the accidentally-released testimony of "OC-1" that he entered the building, took "directed" fire and saw a grenade appear, then shot the unknown Muja and then shot the kneeling Khadr. If we assume that the "general story" is correct as given in that link which seemed to interview the soldiers involved, and only the presence of another survivor with a rifle was covered up, it sounds like OC-1 couldn't have been Speer (obviously), Silver or Hansen (who were both outside, and Silver describes two soldiers "in front of him" as shooting.). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:36, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Looking at it, we see Silver mention that "Three Delta Force" soldiers entered, followed by him, followed by Speer. (Morris had been medEvaced at that point, so only the five of them left). Of the five remaining people, who could those first three have been? Obviously Morris, Silver and Speer are out, which leaves Hansen and the two "unknowns". However, Hansen is not Delta Force, he's attached to the 19th Special Forces Group. Assuming it is indeed a six-man crew that set out (+2 interpreters), then I would simply assume that the Toronto Star and/or Silver misspoke and mistakenly identified Hansen as being Delta Force. I think it's safe to assume that Hansen and the two unknowns entered the compound, while Silver and Speer remained behind them, after Morris had been airlifted. Of course, the "accidentally released report" insisted that three names not be identified, and we seem to only be dealing with two unknown soldiers here - aren't we? (Who may or may not be Delta Force, since Silver's quote already screwed up its identification of Hansen). Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Interesting to note that as of November 07, Worthington had referred to Five men being inside the compound, while only three bodies were reported being initially seen upon entering the compound by Captain/Major Mike Silver. This accounts for the missing Mujahideen who survived the bombed and fired his rifle at the American soldiers after they entered the compound. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 22:59, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Also note that Worthington says that Khadr was tended by the unit's medic, implying someone who was present during the firefight. Since Speer was billed as the "medic" in the media, I'm not sure if one of the four remaining soldiers treated him, or they left him while waiting for reinforcements who brought a medic. Also note that if it was one of the four remaining soldiers who patched him up, then that means the unnamed Sergeant who gives the quote is either Hansen (A Master Sgt, tsk) or one of the two unidentified soldiers, giving us a rank.Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:16, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Worthington mentions Khadr was shot by an "M4", which made me assume we were discussing an M4A1, but finding out that he was "Buckshot Bob" at Bagram, I wonder if perhaps he was shot with a Benelli M4 instead. Any of the documentation mention his wounds? "bullet holes" in his chest implies it was the carbine, but Buckshot Bob implies the shotgun - it would actually make a difference since the shrapnel wound that caused his blindness was from the shotgun, and thus he wasn't "injured" when US troops entered. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:29, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Worthington's article has more than a couple errors it seems, note that he refers to Silver wasling "into the compound behind Sgt Speer" and seeing Khadr, after Speer had already been wounded and was lying on the ground with a head wound. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:42, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Regarding whether they were "Delta Force" or "Green Berets". The earliest accounts I read said they were Green Berets -- a force that dates back to JFK's administration, or before. I don't know which Special Forces units are considered tougher, or better trained, or who is given the missions that requires the most initiative and discretion. I don't know why the USA needs so many different kinds of special forces. In addition the military has Navy SEALS, Army Rangers, and possibly several others.

Mud walled compounds are the standard architecture in rural Afghanistan. Consistently of a 3 or 4 metre tall windowless mud wall. Inside rooms for human, and for domestic animals, line the walls, facing a central courtyard. An extended family, with a patriarch, uncles, cousins all living inside. For reasons of family propriety a smaller detached building might be constructed for lodging guests, to keep the wives and daughters safe from prying eyes. How large are these compounds? Are they larger than a baseball in-field? I don't know. OC-1's account has this compound containing an "alley". Might this just have been a gap between one set of room built lining the outer wall, and another? Possibly between one son's apartment and another's? Or between the human apartments and the animal sheds?

According to the National Post article, The Good Son, from December 2002, Silver was just a Captain at the time.

My reading was that Morris's squad reached the compound first, and called for reinforcements. From other accounts I gather that there were approximately 40 GIs on-site by the final sweep. I gathered that the occupants were already aware they were surrounded as the reinforcements Morris called for arrived.

I've seen the entry and exit holes rounds from an assault rifles like M16s leave in ballistics gel. An M16 round will have a small entry hole and a shockingly large exit hole.

Various teenage Afghan captives testified that they escaped conscription into the Taliban because their beards hadn't come in. Afghans don't have birth certificates. Most of the Afghan captives didn't know their birth date, or how old they were. In looking for sources on Taliban conscription I came across sources that confirmed that, in the late 1990s at least, the Taliban didn't let teenagers who didn't have beards engage in hostilities.

If Khadr was less wounded than his companions it may have been because older comrades covered his body with theirs during the aerial bombardment.

Layne Morris stated, earlier this week, that he was sure Khadr was "the grenade man". But he doesn't seem to have explained what made him draw this conclusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Geo Swan (talk • contribs) 23:30, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

There are photos of the compound in the CBS video - and other than the reference to calling for reinforcements, I haven't seen any indication that the group surrounding the compound was ever more than six men. Morris referred to a "second medic" being on-site, but that was long after the hostilities had ceased and Khadr had been shot. Also, note that Hansen is a "green beret" (was a gunner in Vietnam[1]) (general term for Special Forces) from the 19th. [2] "Delta Force" is a separate unit, unrelated to the 19th.

WHen Mike Leavitt gave his speech about the Bronze Star citation, he described the battle thus;

The second heroic event began as a "search and locate" foray at a walled Afghan compound and turned into a prolonged battle between Major Watt's detachment and an Al Qaeda cell. It was all-out combat, involving air support and medical evacuations and it continued for five hours. Four soldiers were hit, including a Utah guardsman. Through it all, Watt commanded rescue and battle operations as Hansen risked his life to pull wounded comrades to safety.

They killed and captured the entire Al Qaeda force. One of those injured in that battle was Sergeant Lane Morris also with us tonight.

Now, it's not terribly helpful, but it does offer a few new insights (if we assume the Governor of the state heard the story right, which is of course, only "possible"). It implies that the battle took five hours, not four (medEvac of Khadr could've been the extra hour, some sources would count it, others wouldn't), it also implies that four soldiers were "hit" - since the two Afghan interpreters are apparently counted as "wounded comrades", this could mean they were Afghan National Army regulars and thus counted in the total of "four" who were hit. (Morris and Speer from grenades, the two Afghans from gunfire). However, this also designates the two "wounded comrades", which assuming this is a reference to the Afghan interpreters, implied they were not "shot point-blank in the face, killed instantly" as Layne Morris later stated to the media...in fact it implies they were alive at the time he ran forward to drag them to safety (which also makes more logical sense, if somebody were shot point-blank in the face and not moving, a soldier would probably be less likely to advance under fire to drag their body back to safety).

So basically it comes down to a matter of trying to understand the chain of events, are there any direct quotes implying that the "two wounded comrades" for which Hansen was awarded the BZ were the two Afghan interpreters shot upon approach? Or might two SPecial Forces have been shot?

Also, per your comments about the M16 used - you're suggesting that you agree it's more likely a reference to an M16 shotgun than carbine? Or vice versa? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 00:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Someone keeps removing the references to the National Post article "The Good Son".

Sergeant 1st Class Layne Morris didn't expect to be engaged in a firefight that day... A team of Special Forces soldiers and a local Afghan militia set out to investigate... The men ignored Sgt. Morris's entreaties to open the door, and sat with their weapons conferring for about 45 minutes, which was the amount of time it took for Sgt. Morris to call in reinforcements. When the backup troops arrived and Pashtu translators began to negotiate with the men inside the compound, they responded with grenades and bullets... "We were amazed that anyone could still be alive in there," said Captain Mike Silver, who walked into the bombed-out compound behind Sgt. Speer. "Within seconds, we had him [Omar] pinpointed and we opened fire." Omar, who had the beginnings of a peach-fuzz beard on his chin, was covered in blood and dirt and lying on the ground between two fallen pillars. His four comrades had died when U.S. forces bombed the compound earlier in the afternoon. He had been lying in wait, clutching a pistol and a grenade. He was surrounded by a cache of arms that included grenades, ammunition and automatic weapons. Within seconds of throwing the grenade at Sgt. Speer, Omar took two shots in the chest and dropped his pistol...

The URL of this mirror of The Good Son article does not comply with policy for inclusion in article space. But we have the title, publication, date of publication and author, so it remains a valid link even without. So think should not be removed again.

I'll look for that link about the number of reinforcements.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 07:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

More detailes here -- it is a mirror of a widely quoted Wall Street Journal article. Geo Swan (talk) 07:39, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

And the story becomes more of a clusterfuck - hrm. Now we have the translators not appearing until after initial contact, and that they apparently weren't just sent forward, but that Silver's team had been there for 45 minutes prior to even trying to negotiate in Pashto (after the men "ignored" an American soldier yelling at them to open the door? That doesn't make much sense). Frankly, and obviously this is entirely OR, Silver's story about the Firefight seems to change the most about the position of where he was compared ot the others, he's told at least three "slightly different" stories about how it happened - which I'd tend to believes make him the most likely OC-1, having to "invent some details" to cover up the 2nd Muja inside. Of course, that's OR and can't go in the article, just commenting that it's going to be hard reconciling his different stories :\

Of course, remember OK was inside the compound and speaks perfect English - so if Morris actually requested them to open the door as he first approached (this makes no sense, he approached, knocked on the door, withdrew and called reinforcements, THEN the Muja inside shot translators? Why not just shoot Morris' crew at first contact? Blah)

You able to check if any of the ARB/CSRT/ChargeSheets ever mentioned the pistol? I'm curious whether its presence is consistent in stories or not - since the new "leaked" document tends to suggest he was unarmed. (and verifies he was shot in the back/shoulder, not chest) Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:47, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

PS, your new article specifically states the dead men were "all Arabs", rather than Pashtuns (who are a Persian offshoot as I recall) - think that's just bad-journalist-speak for "brown-skinned", or were they actually Arabs speaking Arabic? OK spoke both Pashto and Arabic, but the US Interpreters are defined as Pashto translators, not Arabic. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 08:16, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Dead links

• Second Request for Appointment of Expert Consultant: Dr. Xenakis and Dr. Cantor (.pdf), 'Miami Herald, June 13 2006 - cannot find any non-wiki reference to this file online. Help? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 07:50, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

First militiaman

The timeline's confusing me a bit, it seems like Zadran's first militiaman, the one who retreated under fire, was with the group before they called for reinforcements? He's not mentioned elsewhere when discussing the team sent to check on the Satphone huts - when/where Zadran's men were is confusing, though I strongly suspect the reference to "100 Afghans watching" probably refers to Zadran's troops, not local villagers anxious to see carnage. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:46, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

To confuse the situation futher, Shephard's book refers to only a hlaf-dozen of Zadran's troops being present! Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

PV2 R

PV2 R, the PV2 refers to the rank Private Second Class, while the R could be an initial or could be a reference to his being a PV2-R, a Private Second Class in the Rangers...which you'll notice we had some troops from the Rangers arriving in the 5-vehicle convoy. It's not clear yet. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 23:21, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Inquiries

Note to self: Exhaust fields of inquiry on determining who the woman and child were, that OC-1 mentions. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 01:10, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I read an account that referred to multiple women escaping the compound. I got the impression that there were at least three. I guess one could have been a girl tall enough to be mistaken for an adult. One account has then quietly leaving during the time when Layne Morris was waiting for reinforcements. But OC-1 has then running our during the aerial bombardment. Geo Swan (talk) 05:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Mmm, but OC-1's witness testimony says "One woman and one child escaped the compound prior to [OC-1]'s arrival and were escorted away by US personnel." implying he didn't see any of them leave - since he didn't arrive until at least after the Apaches had strafed the compound -- possibly even after the Mk-82s were dropped. If he's talking about hearsay, any of the original half-dozen guys would've mentioned multiple women/children to him presumably, so it's possible that one of the earlier reinforcements (who brought Zadran's militia, as I understand it) arrived just in time to see a single mother/child leave and told OC-1 about it I suppose...still, seems odd. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 05:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: Did Khadr ask to be killed then officer was about to order him killed, or did officer suggest Khadr be killed, was restrained, and Khadr argued and agreed he would rather be killed? Makes a big difference. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:44, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I wonder. But, even if every survivor had to testify about what he said, wearing a lie detector, we would have no way of really knowing.

Can OC-1's statement be reconciled with the later account of seeing a shooter give someone a "double-tap"? OC-1 said he shot the first guy just once. The double-tap could have been Khadr. But it opens the question as to whether there might have been two other survivors.

Note, OC-1's statement was taken in March 2004 -- 21 months later.

Cheers! Geo Swan (talk) 02:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: Four men in alleyway, Khadr taken away alive, two bodies taken and buried by locals...where is the remaining body? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)}

Note to self: He saw his friend killed, someone specific? Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 20:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

From my watching of "Son of al Qaeda" I'd question whether his mother and sister knew anything more about the skirmish than anyone else who access to the newspapers. I'd question whether his family knew who else was present during the skirmish.

My interpretation is that referring to the other individuals present as his "friends" was just an idiom, and did not imply that they were really friends in the way we understand.

He was fifteen. They were adults. Is it easier for Muslim teenagers to have real friendship with grown adults than it is for people from Western cultures? I doubt it. If I had to guess, I would guess it would be harder. Geo Swan (talk) 02:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Note to self: A prisoner was taken aboard the initial MedEvac DustOff (Wings 11), this is not a reference to Khadr as the MedEvacs left while the compound was still being bombed - and Khadr is specifically referred to being flown in a CH-47 from the battlesite, not a UH-60. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 21:41, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

NPOV?

GA issues aside, I think the current article is a good starting point, and this is confirmed by Fremte. What I understood from Fremte's remarks was that deletions made last month with respect to Omar's mentoring were not necessarily POV if they were distinguished from personal actions under a head of controversial upbringing. These were some miscellaneous researched references to the Omar's cultural origins (given the multi-ethnic character of many Canadians), his mother's attitudes towards Omar's national culture, e.g. quotes of why she opted to move Omar from Canada, and his male role model, e.g. character of his father figure as far as we can assess from how Omar's and his siblings were molded. The best summary came from Randy2063, when he explained that we should be upfront in pointing it out if Omar did not grow up playing Playstation. I do appreciate that Sherurcij has made an excellent effort to deal with the family, and I would like to add to Omar's bio with the information above provided they do not create POV issues. Again, feedback from Fremte & Randy2063 is most welcome.--Dlafferty (talk) 15:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Based on the amount of Nintendo AKK plays, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that Omar did play Playstation growing up (more likely he would've had a n older platform, of course) - if it's a big deal to you, I can ask the family about any video games...but I think it would be a little strange to add "Omar did not do X" to the article - shall we also include the fact he didn't play with Barbie dolls? Why include things that didn't happen? Similarly, the "character of his father figure" (figure? wtf?) belongs in the father's article, and "his mother's attitudes" belong in her article. I have no idea if Paul Bernardo's mother believed homosexuality were a sin, because it isn't relevant. As I said, unless you intend to add "He was raised in a household that believed homosexuality is a sin" to every Catholic, Buddhist or Muslim article on the project, then it doesn't belong. It might belong in an article like Eric Robert Rudolph where the subject commit anti-homosexual violence, but it has zero relevance to the Khadrs. Sherurcij ^{(Speaker for the Dead)} 16:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I am not quite following this discussion at this point. I don't see any need to add trivia such as video game usage, nor other assumptive details such as what it might mean to have been brought up unusually or non-normatively in several cultural millieus. Just the facts of where and when he lived is enough. The meaning of the experiences would need to be the subject of an essay or an interview with Khadr. (I might add, the relevance of some did not do details is right up there with old Cheerios adverts : does not contain broccolli.) I supported the good article designation, b/c it is that, at this point. Or perhaps it is simply fun to discuss things? Fremte (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm only interested in presenting facts and quotes from the mother and father. No essays, and I'm not interested in judging the normativity of Omar's childhood. Are these POV?--131.111.243.34 (talk) 16:18, 24 April 2008 (UTC)