Talk:Cthulhu

Mopping up discussions

From now on, please strike out questions/problems that have been adressed, in order to make it easier for fellow editors to find problems to adress.--AlexeyTOD 13:53, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Audio sample needed

The notation is there, but it would be best if someone who understands the notation reads it out Jackpot Den 12:49, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

no information

the article is huge, and some people obviously put some time into it, but there's practically speaking NO INFORMATION on what cthuluhu actually DOES, or WILL do, or what the deal is. the ONLY specific piece of information is that he will be "ravenous" in "delight" or something like that. .....what is that supposed to entail? i assume lovecraft's source material gives more details than that. otherwise the whole idea of cthulhu is nothing but a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury signifying nothing. somebody please put in some details about what cthulhu will actually DO when he rises.

That's the thing, there's not much information on what he will actually do. Cthulhu is a horror creature of the oldschool, where things were implied but not spelled out... the idea, of course, being that the horrible images the reader would create in the mind are far worse than anything the writer can put to paper. 69.64.10.249 16:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, IMHO, there is enough information, the quote about "liberated Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy" spells it pretty well --AlexeyTOD 14:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

A note, on the removal from the article of the "kuh-loo-oo" pronunciation: As I recall, Cthulhu has been pronounced "kuh-loo-oo", and by no lesser person than Lovecraft himself. Nobody's quite sure how he got "kuh-loo-oo" from "Cthulhu" (or vice versa), though. --Paul A 01:25 Feb 21, 2003 (UTC)

---

Regarding the quote, "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die," in the story The Nameless City by H.P. Lovecraft, the protagonist says that the verse refers to the alligator/seal beings that live in the eponymous nameless city in the middle of the desert. "It was of this place that Abdul Alhazred the mad poet dreamed of the night before he sang his unexplained couplet:" It might be worth mentioning this, in the section where it says the verse usually relates to Cthulhu. --67.188.65.218 18:55, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

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Its also worth mentioning that Cthulhu appeared in an episode of the new Justice League cartoon series that runs are Cartoon Network. They pronounced the name "Ich-thoo-loo". He wasn't very Lovecraftian insomuch as Superman punching him in the face did him significant harm, but that's DC for you.

---

Cthulhu isn't supposed to be very well known; his motives are intended to be obscure, as are his actions. We don't need to know that he 'does' anything. Quoting Shakespeare doesn't change this.

:That's all well and good, but the article doesn't even go THAT far. The encyclopediac approach, by its nature, is supposed to explain things. If the full nature of Cthulhu is unexplained in the stories themselves, at least tell us THAT. Enwilson 06:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

See above, there is sufficient information on his intentions. Not much, okay, but sufficient --AlexeyTOD 14:20, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

---

I dont have the links off hand, and I'm not on my own PC, but as far as I'm aware, the main theme in Lovecraft's works (and reading them seems to support this) is the complete insignificance of mankind in the order of things, and that if we were to catch a glimpse of what 'lies beyond' we'd go mad. So we don't know what Cthulhu "does", we cant possibly know because he is a being totally beyond our knowledge, and as the stories are told from a human perspective, there is very ittle information on him.--81.151.163.142 23:33, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

Tales of the Plush Cthulhu

No page on Cthulhu-related satire can be complete without a reference to Tales of the Plush Cthulhu: http://www.logicalcreativity.com/jon/plush/01.html

This will fit Cthulhu in popular culture. Unless in ends up merged here. --AlexeyTOD 14:22, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Not sure where this goes, but...

Cthulhu movie! http://www.cthulhuthemovie.com/ This goes to the garbage bin for being a very poor movie indeed :). --AlexeyTOD 14:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Campus Crusade for Cthulhu

Where should a reference to this go? It's not exactly a parody of Cthulhu...--SarekOfVulcan 07:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

there should be a link to it somewhere on the page, certainly.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.86.159.60 (talk • contribs) 12:45, 2006 October 22 (UTC)

Probably nowhere in this article, but if it were to go anywhere it should go in the See also section as an internal wikilink for Campus Crusade for Cthulhu.
—Asatruer 20:42, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

My opinion is that it can be in "see also", and in Cthulhu in popular Culture --AlexeyTOD 14:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The nonnotables

This article has a bad case of cruft... do we really need to know everytime some webcomic parodied Cthulhu, or cards in games, or (by the gibbering mouths of the squamous shoggoths!) that the description of a minor deviant art community actually mentions the name in an offhanded and totally uninteresting way?

You could probably cut out half of this article just getting rid of pointless trivial crufty junk. DreamGuy 02:26, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess this was resolved long ago, and will stay so (unless the Cthulhu in popular culture article is merged back with this article)--84.47.153.124 16:10, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

References to the mythos

The list of references to the mythos in this article is out of control. There's a page for that. Anyone want to take a stab at criteria by which key references should be selected on this page? -Harmil 22:14, 23 February 2006 (UTC) :Frankly, if there's another article on the topic, in my mind there's absolutely no reason for any of them to be on this one. DreamGuy 21:59, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

• I split the "References to Cthulhu" section into a separate article: Cthulhu in popular culture. I left a hatnote at the top of the Cthulhu page directing editors to the other article — although technically hatnotes should not be used for this purpose, I strongly recommend leaving it for the time being so that other editors will know where the "fancruft" (with apologies, I would prefer to use a more diplomatic term, but I can't think of one at the moment) went; otherwise, the "References to.." section is liable to get recreated.
  -,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 19:08, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Hellboy Reference

I don't know just a thought, and maybe just some conflict here, but in the movie Hellboy at the end of the movie there are those octopus looking monsters that seem to have a similiar appearence to the description of the Cthulhu. I think I'm wrong...but they may very well be the same being. Fromps

I added a hellboy bit. People may not like it but I put it in a trivial section. I have to agree with Fromps. It is even more obvious in the comic.+1baka 09:36, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

That goes to Cthulhu in popular culture --84.47.153.124 16:49, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Fthagn

In the parody section I changed the note claiming "fthagn" as a corruption of "fan." From the cultist chant "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!" ("In the depths of sunken R'lyeh dead Cthulhu sleeps") from Lovecraft's short story "The Call of Cthulhu," "fthagn" means "sleeps." The preceeding unsigned comment by 165.134.132.52 28 March 2006

• Speaking of "Fthagn", note the following insightful excerpt from Will Murray's essay "Prehuman Language in Lovecraft" (Crypt of Cthulhu 23 [St. John's Eve 1984], Vol. 3 No. 7, pp. 43–47, Robert M. Price (ed.), Bloomfield, NJ: Cryptic Publications):

Obviously the rules of spelling and pronunciation in prehuman speech are not easily deciphered. This is also true of syntax, as is clear from the first and most famous example of the tongue given in "The Call of Cthulhu." This is the line that reads:

"Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn."

and translates as:

"In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming."

Lovecraft informs us that R'lyeh is the undersea palace of the entity Cthulhu. It would seem that "fhtagn" probably means "waits" because the line is compressed to "Cthulhu fhtagn" later in the story. It might possibly mean "Cthulhu dreams" instead, but "fhtagn" is unlikely to mean both "dreams" and "dreaming." We would expect some change in verb-form. In any event, there are nine English words to the phrase, and if we count the apostrophes as word breaks (disregarding the one in R'lyeh, of course) there are nine prehuman words in the original, too. But the arrangement of those words makes generating a grammatical structure—and thus translating the rest of the words—virtually impossible. No syntactical arrangement in which R'lyeh wgah'nagl separates the subject-verb combination "Cthulhu waits" works.

Hence, it may be impossible for human beings to deduce the true meaning of the word—though the meaning may be perfectly clear to the non-human minds of the Old Ones (and this may be what Lovecraft intended).
,-~^R'lyehRising~-, 03:29, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Fhtagn could mean both "sleeps" and "sleeping", if the language is anything like Hebrew. Mo-Al 01:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure Murray is much of a linguist--he doesn't seem to understand that you can have syntax that isn't based on word order. But given that cultists go around shouting "Cthulhu fhtagn!" all the time, it would make much more sense for it to mean "waits" than "sleeps". Unless they mean, "Quiet--Cthulhu fhtagn!" Nareek 02:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

That is pretty clear, but I wouldn't say that the syntax isn't based on word order (though I doubt Lovecraft actually meant for this to be analyzed). It could be that:

• ph'nglui - dreaming
• mglw'nafh - dead
• wgah'nagl - his house
• fhtagn - waits

That means that an interlinear translation would yield "Dreaming dead Cthulhu R'lyeh his house waits." This language could have a Subject Object Verb word order, with "R'lyeh wgah'nagl" being the object of "fhtagn" (sort of like in English, we can say "I wait here", so in this language you could say "I wait R'lyeh). Now, I'm not saying that this is what Lovecraft intended at all, but the sentence is possible to interpret. Mo-Al 06:56, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

/ May I humbly point my fellow contributors to a vast and seemingly exhaustive Usenet discussion of "the fhtagn matter"? Here, check out alt.horror.cthulhu --VR999 09:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

"Fhtagn-word" has been most throughly adressed --AlexeyTOD 16:57, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

err...

I feel that the oldest and most serious Cthulhu-based religion, the Cult of Cthulhu, should be represented. Most treat Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos as fiction, but for some it is a reality. The Cult of Cthulhu is an international organization lead by High Priest Venger Satanis, website: http://www.CultofCthulhu.net

What we would need to link to the Cult of Cthulhu is some evidence that the Cult is notable--that is, that people other than the Cult itself have paid attention to the Cult. Nareek 20:35, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

LMFAO

Only my good manners and wikipolicies keep me from wiping this entry out completely --AlexeyTOD 17:00, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

No reward?

The article says that "[u]nlike other human religions, the cult of Cthulhu seeks no reward for serving their "god" such as eternal paradise after death. They serve only to bring the Great Clearing Off and will no doubt be served the same fate as the rest of Earth's denizens." This seems to mesh poorly with this sentence from Call of Cthulhu, from old Castro's account of the cult to Inspector Legrasse:

"Then the Old Ones would teach them new ways to shout and kill and revel and enjoy themselves, and all the earth would flame with a holocaust of ecstasy and freedom."

(Towards the end of part II, a page or so before the "That is not dead ..." couplet is quoted. p155 in the Penguin Classics paperback collection "The Call of Cthulhu and Other Weird Stories.)

The "they" apparently refers to "all men" in the previous sentence, describing how humanity at the time of the Old Ones' return will have become a race of Nietzschean superhumans. So while the cultists apparently expect no paradisical afterlife from Cthulhu, they do hope to help bring about a kind of golden age for mankind under the Old Ones' rule.

That one might reasonably suspect they'd be disappointed should they ever succeed is another issue.

I don't think they'd be dissapointed. We'd probably be able to expect one last huge mass party/orgy brought on by the madness of Cthulhu's rising before the whole being eaten thing :p. --Krsont 10:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

IPA

We have at least two independant accounts of HPL's own pronunciation of Cthulhu:

• Frank Belknap Long said in writing: "Coot-yew-lew"
• Robert Barlow said in writing: "Koot-u-lew"

Those two are clear, convergent, and don't require unreadable IPA to make their point -- IPA should come second after them. Why isn't that information mentionned in the lead, as well as the fact that it was how HPL dealed with the name?

62.147.37.230 06:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

IPA is totally useless to being with, despite being inaccurate here. We should use the actual refs. And, from what i remember, HPL himself gave two pronounciations, something like KLOOLOO and something totally alien that humans couldn't understand. It's in his letters somewhere.DreamGuy

I removed the following unsourced material from the article (alleged pronunciations for "Cthulhu"):

/kəˈθuːluː/, /kəˈθʊːluː/, or /kəˈtʰʊːluː/ (IPA transliteration);

-,-~^R'lyehRising~-,- 02:16, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I readded it. If this article is going to list possible pronounciations, the IPA should be used. --Krsont 22:26, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Why do we still need the ipa-cleanup tag? The issue of whether IPA is useful aside, it looks like the cleanup has already been done. ManaUser 15:52, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I know of no other WP style guideline that is as hotly contested as IPA without the fact that there are serious disagreements among editors about the style being reflected in the MOS. In any case, whatever the general rule for WP is, it is highly dubious to apply IPA to Cthulhu, which is a name expressly imagined as one that cannot be correctly pronounced by human tongues. To offer a "correct" pronunciation beyond the vague gesturing toward what he had in mind given by Lovecraft seems to clearly fall into the category of original research.

Incidentally, did anyone besides me notice that of the three IPA pronunciations offered in recent versions of Cthulhu, two of them were absolutely identical? To me this suggests that basically nobody--opponents or proponents--can read the damned thing. Nareek 01:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the sentence "Lovecraft suggested that Cthulhu is pronounced "Khlul'-hloo"" should be removed then - if any pronounciation info is kept, it should be changed into IPA. Mo-Al 22:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Why? The Manual of Style is supposed to reflect a "consensus of editors", and the demand for IPA plainly does not. Nareek 00:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, generally we follow the policies. I don't see how it would hurt. Mo-Al 00:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The pronunciation guide should match its source. If Lovecraft does not specify the pronunciation in a way that unambiguously translates into one and only one IPA rendering, then including one is original research. If he does so specify, I would suggest putting the IPA version in the text with a footnote that cites whatever says the word is pronounced that way. Otherwise, we should only include the phonetic spellings Lovecraft provides. -- Schaefer (Talk) 00:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, but it is also original reaserch to say that "Lovecraft suggested that Cthulhu is pronounced "Khlul'-hloo"", when he actually said that "the first syllable [of Khlul'-hloo is] pronounced gutturally and very thickly. The u is about like that in full; and the first syllable is not unlike klul in sound, hence the h represents the guttural thickness." Even if he did write "Khlul'-hloo", that doesn't help to pronouce Cthulhu at all, since "Khl", "u", "hl" and "oo" could have dozens of different pronounciations. Mo-Al 01:42, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I must say it's a strange use of "original research" to apply it to citing an author's own words about how his own invention is to be pronounced. Nareek 13:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

To clarify: Yes, you cannot get an exact pronunciation out of Lovecraft's notation, which is why making an IPA translation based on his instructions is OR. But it's not the case that Lovecraft provides no information about how to pronounce the word--you get a lot closer to what Lovecraft says he had in mind from reading what he says he had in mind than you do from looking at the letters C-T-H-U-L-H-U. Going to Lovecraft's writings takes you as close as you can get to his intentions--while it doesn't eliminate all ambiguity, it does greatly limit it. The ambiguity is inherently there; reducing it further would violate either WP:NOR or WP:NPOV. Nareek 15:22, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

But Lovecraft didn't say ""Cthulhu" is pronounced "Khlul'-hloo"", he said "the first syllable [of Khlul'-hloo is] pronounced gutturally and very thickly. The u is about like that in full; and the first syllable is not unlike klul in sound, hence the h represents the guttural thickness.", right? He never actually used the transcription "Khlul'-hloo" (or if he did, it's not cited right in the article). Mo-Al 17:19, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

No, "Klul'-hloo" is Lovecraft's. Some rephrasing would be helpful. Nareek 22:13, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It should reference where Lovecraft actually wrote "Klul'-hloo". Mo-Al 23:29, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's perhaps defensible to suggest that no IPA pronunciation should be provided because no unique IPA pronunciation can be derived given the available sources, but appealing to WP:NOR is absurd. Lovecraft's remarks strongly suggest a unique pronunciation, with only the pronunciation of the "hl" in "hloo" in any reasonable doubt. If transcribing detailed, cited descriptions of pronunciations into IPA is to be considered original research, then virtually every use of IPA on WP is original research. 64.81.149.73 19:39, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

It did not strongly suggest a unique pronounciation. I might have taken it as [ʕɭʊɬu]. Mo-Al 23:51, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a Catch-22 here: If you can tell how to pronounce the word from Lovecraft's description, why do you need an IPA version, which will be understood by far fewer people? If you can't figure out how to pronounce it from what Lovecraft gives us, then how can you construct an IPA equivalent? Nareek 12:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

this discussion seems to be missing the point. The IPA transcriptions were added to give examples of pronunciations that have been used by people who have tried to say the name, not the official version of Lovecraft himself. It's difficult to give sources for speech, but I personally have heard all 3 versions at various times. --Krsont 15:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, we're now talking about the (removed) statement that Lovecraft intended for "Cthulhu" to be pronounced ʀlʊlχlu. Mo-Al 23:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

i'm not. So can the IPA transcriptions /kəˈθuːluː/, /kəˈθʊːluː/, or /kəˈtʰʊːluː/ be put back? --Krsont 12:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see the value in adding in guides to pronouncing the word the way random people have pronounced it. What's the source that shows that these pronunciations are any more common than any other guess people might have as to how the word is pronounced? Nareek 12:31, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

So far, the pronunciation that has convinced me the most is one that sounds a bit like K(a)-thoo-loo (the A is practically silent). I have heard around non-English-speaking Lovecraft circles more often than any other.

Cthulhu

is Cthulu really "arguably one of the least terrible creatures in the pantheon"? I mean, he is the most famous one amongst non-readers of Lovecraft, so doesn't that mean he has had the most terrifying impact on those who heard of him? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.208.107.41 (talk • contribs) 03:44, 2006 June 21 (UTC)

There's an awful lot of OR in this article--taking vague statements in fictional stories and trying to analyze them as if they referred to an actual entity. It needs a serious prune. Nareek 11:19, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

In short, people are Biblicly analyzing Lovecraft's stories.

BanditmanEXE 22:12, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair use image

(Discussion moved here from my talkpage —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC))

Had a question, thought you might be able to help out. You recently removed the Dunwich Horror painting from Cthulu, I tried reinserting it with some extra text to pass the fair use test. [1] Would you mind checking, and if I erred, remove the offending image? Thanks. See ya. --LV ^{(Dark Mark)} 20:49, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I was just working on researching that, in fact. It feels wrong to me, since this painting almost certainly didn't accompany the story in its original form (pulp horror magazines, I think) but at some point was maybe commisioned or licensed for use in a specific book reprinting the Dunwich Horror, and other stories. I didn't get anybody else to weigh in at WP:FUR when I asked about whether this picture had legitimate fair use *anywhere* though. But I'd like to find some more precise dates at least. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:56, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I find no mention of the painting anywhere but that it is the artwork on the front flyleaf cover of Arkham house's 1984 issuing of The Dunwich Horror and Others. The Dunwich Horror having been published (in Weird Tales) in 1929, I don't think a case can be made that using this artwork alongside a discussion of the short story is fair-use. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 21:10, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

The dates have nothing to do with whether the image is Fair Use or not. We're using an image that's designed to promote Cthulhu commercially for purposes of educational commentary about Cthulhu--it's a classic example of Fair Use. Nareek 11:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. The image wasn't "designed to promote Cthulu commercially". There's no Cthulu marketing team selling Cthulu merchandise and using that painting as part of its marketing collateral. The image was designed, if anything, to promote the 1984 issuing of Arkham House's The Dunwich Horror and Others commercially. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 15:38, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

There is an Arkham House that claims (probably falsely) to own the copyright to "Call of Cthulhu", in which Cthulhu is a character, and markets a collection of stories that includes "Call of Cthulhu" by including an artist's conception of Cthulhu on the cover. How this is different from using the cover of a Peanuts collection to illustrate an article about Snoopy, I don't know. Nareek 23:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Sourced to Lovecraft

The version that's just gone up has the one big advantage of being sourced--mainly to Lovecraft himself, who would seem to be the key source of information about his creation. The article now contains just about everything Lovecraft's fiction tells us about Cthulhu.

Hopefully the article can go on from there to explain how other major writers have expanded or altered the concept of Cthulhu, also referring to their published work. Nareek 05:16, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Is this some kind of joke?

Stephen King has suggested that Cthulhu represents "a gigantic, tentacle-equipped, killer vagina from beyond space and time."

a vagina? I doubt he said any such thing. Did someone change/insert a word from the original quote?

I'm guessing that King did say that--it sounds like the sort of thing he'd say. Nareek 20:38, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

It's entirely true.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.190.19.210 (talk • contribs) 14:03, 2006 August 23 (UTC)

Yes, it's true. Lovecraft was strongly against Freudian analysis and Houellebecq thinks that it is a mistake to read Lovecraft with sex in mind. King disagrees. Pftupper 01:11, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It's not hard to see why one could be drawn to Freudian interpretations, what with the tentacles, and the various bodily appurtenaces, and the eating, and Lovecraft's largely loveless life and short marriage... --Gwern (contribs) 02:54, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Yet another example of Stephen King Having no actual creative drave.+1baka 09:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

No this is the joke "err I feel that the oldest and most serious Cthulhu-based religion, the Cult of Cthulhu, should be represented. Most treat Lovecraft's Cthulhu Mythos as fiction, but for some it is a reality. The Cult of Cthulhu is an international organization lead by High Priest Venger Satanis, website: http"

Chinese leaders

The relevant quote is: "What the police did extract, came mainly from the immensely aged mestizo named Castro, who claimed to have sailed to strange ports and talked with undying leaders of the cult in the mountains of China." "Undying" and "immortal" are near enough synonymous, I think. I don't have my Arkham House copy with me, otherwise I'd put in a footnote. Nareek 19:23, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

added name to author list

I added a listing for Gore Verbinski to explain the out-of-the-blue link to Davy Jones. Cute little guy, that Davy. Trilobitealive 20:22, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

And I see someone has deleted both without any explanation whatsoever., which I think is really rude bacause the character is an obvious Cthulhu look-alike Trilobitealive 04:30, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the original paragraph, deleted shortly after it was posted. I'd like to here someone's opinion other than that of the deletor.

• Gore Verbinski and the Disney Studios team appear to have developed their Pirates of the Caribbean character Davy Jones along remarkably similar lines to some physical descriptions of Cthulhu. Trilobitealive 04:39, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I did offer an explanation in the edit summary: "I don't think we can say that anyone with an octopus for a head is necessarily based on Cthulhu." It is not impossible for this idea to occur independently, and for us to suggest that it has to be based on Cthulhu is original research. Nareek 05:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I hardly think the fact that the Disney character bears an eerie resemblance to Cthulhu is original research. Captaining the Flying Dutchman is none other than the legendary Davy Jones (Bill Nighy), whose tentacled visage is reminiscent of H. P. Lovecraft's Cthulhu.The villain, Davy Jones, in Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest has a similar look to Cthulhu.

Over 50 years of progressive disenchantment I've never yet doubted the possibility that a Disney movie could contain independently occurring ideas. But that assertion would itself require a reference please. --Trilobitealive 16:05, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Your second link is to a Wikipedia mirror. --Gwern (contribs) 17:29 10 December 2006 (GMT)

Thank you. So I don't understand how the reference can be valid for one part of Wikipedia but not another.Trilobitealive 01:06, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that reference has been deleted from the Wikipedia page that mirrors. In any case, given that WP policy is enforced by volunteer editors, you'll find many pages that are in violation of one rule or another--you can't use that to justify violating the rules on another page. Nareek 01:21, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

I have no idea why my example is a rule violation and if you'd like to explain the mechanics of it I've opened my talk page. Trilobitealive 00:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

At this point I still believe that Cthulhu has become a literary archetype and as usually happens to archetypes he has many imitators. These include Disney's immortal claw-handed, octopus-headed demigod Davy Jones. But I lack the interest to pursue this small area of wikipedia when there are so many other interesting areas. Regards, all. Trilobitealive 00:49, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

If we don't have a source saying that Davy Jones was inspired by (which is different than reminiscent of) Cthulhu, then for us to say that he must have been inspired by Cthulhu is original research. WP is not the place for us to make our own observations; it's a place to record the observations made by others. Nareek 02:38, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Broken External Link

The website that used to have the complete works of HP Lovecraft ([2]) now says "You are unauthorized to view this page". I've tried it on multiple computers, is this site defunct —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.110.194.13 (talk) 22:09, 21 December 2006 (UTC).

It seems to be. I've been deleting links where I've found them. Nareek 23:04, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture change

I suggest that we change the image showing cthulhu at the very beginning of the page. I know I got a very different feel from that than the Cthulhu I know and love. As an alternative I suggest: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Cthulhupainting.jpg Samineru 21:23, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't like that picture, nor do I like the one that's up now. Personally, I think that the horrorclix figure is one of the best versions I have seen of Cthulhu. Herojoe1000 23:00, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I suggest we use an image of Stephen Hickman's Cthulhu Statue (http://www.stephenhickman.com/cthulu.html or some photo of it in a more "menacing" setting) on this page.

It is considered to be quite accurate, and I could ask him for an explicit permission, to ensure no copyright hiliarity follows.

--VR999 20:57, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Although the picture is acurate, I think if someone who knew nothing about Cthulhu, but the name saw that picture they might think Cthulhu was an actual mythilogical god, not a fictitious character. I also dislike the picture that is there now.--The Infamous Dr. Salvador 21:25, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Er, mythological gods are ficticious characters, too, you know. Thus, "myth". --69.140.177.7 16:16, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

You know what I mean, that their were real people who worshiped him.--The Infamous Dr. Salvador 00:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

don't mean to be a dick but some idiots worship this thing too but than again many people also believe in witchcraft and magic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.220.1.137 (talk) 06:08, 1 April 2008 (UTC) Shouldn't the current picture be credited? Mezigue 21:08, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

I think Carrick's portrayal of Cthulhu is the one most faithful to Lovecraft's description of him; either this one http://www.nightserpent.com/cthulhu.html or this one (which is of the stone idol of Cthulhu) http://www.nightserpent.com/statue.html what do you all think? Both have the copyright tag on them, I have no idea how copyrighting works on Wikipedia, but would it be acceptable? Ours18 (talk) 20:25, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

What is it? Update required to intro

I came here to find out what this thing is, and that isn't even in the intro paragraph. I am told how to pronounce its name, but I'm not wading through the whole article to find out what it is. Someone kindly update the intro. I cannot see how anyone would make this a featured article candidate without updating the intro. --Altoids Man 00:57, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

The intro is fine, imo. It states that Cthulhu is "a fictional being created by horror author H. P. Lovecraft." If one wants to read about Cthulhu's characteristics, involvement in Lovecraft's works, etc, etc, one reads on. --oac (old american century) | Talk 17:30, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Peer Review?

Respected fellow editors! Maybe we should submit the Cthulhu article for Wikipedia Peer Review? --VR999 10:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

On "artistic imagery"

Decided to add an "artistic imagery" section.

Artistic imagery is not "culture reference" per se, so I decided it is worth a separate entry. It deals with the narrow case when the character in question is the main subject for a work of art. For example, a statue or a painting of Zeus is an artistic image of an ancient Greek deity rather than a "culture reference" to it.

So I think we need a small "artistic imagery" section for Cthulhu.

I have a question, though - should I link to the works of artists mentioned in this section or not?

--VR999 11:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Derleth controversy sauced

Returned the note on non-universality of Derleth's interpretation, and supplied it with printed source that has ISBN --User:AlexeyTOD 20:55 Jun 28, 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions

"Cthulhu is often referred to in science fiction and fantasy circles as a tongue-in-cheek shorthand for extreme horror or evil."

He is? I haven't come across this, especially the tongue-in-cheek part. Could someone find a reference?

Also, I renamed "Enter August Derleth" to "August Derleth". Makes it sound a little less sensationalist. Also, the section about the sculpture needs to be rewritten from a NPOV standpoint. I'll try and do it myself later on. Desdinova 07:22, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Uh i don't think this is right.

Stephen King has suggested that Cthulhu represents "a gigantic, tentacle-equipped, killer vagina from beyond space and time."[30] Cthulhu is also mentioned in his short story "Crouch End." —Preceding unsigned comment added by NBLG (talk • contribs) 07:36, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Presidential Campaign

Someone should research the presidential campaign effort to vote Cthulu into office. "Why vote the lesser of two evils?" Sarixe (talk) 15:59, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Other appearances

So where exactly are these supposed other Lovecraft appearances? Kuralyov (talk) 04:18, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Pronounciation Guide

Can someone add a pronounciation guide in the first sentence of the article? I have no idea how to pronounce "Cthulhu" ..... I assume it is "seth-hul-who" ....is that correct? Please can someone also do it with an audio file. 58.160.184.145 (talk) 08:19, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

The third paragraph in the introduction goes over the various ways of pronouncing it. There doesn't appear to be universally-accepted, official way of pronouncing it, though most people say "KA-thoo-loo". --clpo13_(talk) 01:26, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

False Information

Cthulu is older than H.P. Lovecraft so that means H.P. Lovecraft did not create Cthulu. The articles information should show that H.P. Lovecraft did not create Cthulu because it is far older than he his.GLogic (talk) 09:42, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Show me a reference to Cthulhu that predates Lovecraft, and I'll show you a hoax.JustIgnoreMe (talk) 00:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Cthulhu is an Arabic demon that comes from old Islam! just like the Djinn also come from Islam! H.P. Lovecraft couldn't have made up this demon! "Abashed the Devil stood and felt how awful goodness is." (talk) 08:23, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Source, or it didn't happen. (JustIgnoreMe, too lazy to sign in)212.135.238.117 (talk) 15:43, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Phillip Marsh Reference

The Notes and References for this article both list "R'lyehian as a Toy Language - on psycholinguistics," by "Marsh, Phillip." Is this a real source? "Marsh" is of course the name of the infamous captain (and his descendents) from Lovecraft's "The Shadow Over Innsmouth," and Lovecraft's middle name was "Phillips," after his grandfather, Whipple Van Buren Phillips. (The Encyclopedia Cthulhiana also mentions a mariner named Cyrus Phillips, who was Obadiah Marsh's first mate.)

So at the very least, the name "Phillip Marsh" sounds like an inside joke aimed at Lovecraftian scholars. I think we can safely assume it is a pseudonym, if indeed the work exists at all. Can someone confirm or deny the existence of "R'lyehian as a Toy Language" or its author? 0x539 (talk) 00:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Believe it or not, it's real. 98.198.9.90 (talk) 23:40, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

That's great. We've all heard the same assertion regarding the Necronomicon numerous times. "It's real," with no evidence. Can we get a reasonable citation on this? A publisher, maybe an ISBN number? The reason I'm still pushing is that neither Amazon nor the Library of Congress seem to have any listing for this work.

I did look around a bit on the Internet. Google returns several pages on a search for "R'lyehian as a Toy Language - on psycholinguistics." The first is the Wikipedia article on Cthulhu that we are discussing. There is one reference on a page titled "Satanic Reds," and one on a page called, "The Satan Shop." The rest of the references are in text that was copied from the Wikipedia page.

If no one comes up with substantive evidence that this source exists, it should be removed. If it does exist, we are still left with a dilemma. Is it a reliable source? Is Marsh's interpretation of "Cthulhu Fhtagn" noteworthy enough to warrant inclusion in Wikipedia? 0x539 (talk) 18:55, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Call of Ktulu - Metallica Song

I was wondering if the Metallica song "Call of Ktulu" is related to the Call of Cthulhu. If so perhaps a reference to this should be connected on the main article. Kutulus (talk) 20:02, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Call of Cthulhu fiction

I've moved in a whole list of 'Cthulhu' books that used to be at Chaosium, where they clearly did not belong. I have no doubt that most of them are totally unreadable, but then that is part of the story. Whether that belongs here in or in a separate article on sub-Lovecraftian hackwork, I leave for others to decide. m.e. (talk) 14:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The phoneme "Cth-"

Don't know quite where to put this, and I don't think it's been addressed anywhere else (apologies if I've missed it somewhere), but I'd like to suggest that the initial phoneme of the name Cthulhu might derive from the word Chthonian, an adjective pertaining to the "basement tenants" of the Greek system of divinities. The Olympian gods seem to have been imposed from outside by an Indo-Germanic culture (compare the Olympian Ennead with the Aesir of Asgard), while the Chthonian gods, typically patrons of the natural elements, the underworld, witchcraft and other broadly feminine matters feared and hated by Hellenistic culture, occupy a dark and frequently monstrous position in Greek psychology.

Nuttyskin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.194.199.50 (talk) 09:54, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

if you have a secondary source to back up that statement, then feel free to encoperate it into the article. it sounds reasonable enough, but we need to avoid synthisising information and origional research. Coffeepusher (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Star-Spawn (Cthulhli?) vs. Cthulhu's Beloved

From what I can gather the Star-Spawn are a race that accompanied Cthulhu to Earth and resemble him but on a smaller scale (but are only mentioned in passing and never seen by any of Lovecraft's protagonists yes?) and Cthulhu's beloved are Deep Ones that have been mutated by Cthulhu's influence, but can anyone find references to these Beloved or are these simply an addition made by other Mythos writers outside of HPL's own works? Are the Beloved strictly limited to the Chaosium game(s)? If they are two distinct races and not synonymous terms (since we all know how Lovecraft liked to coin terms on the go) this article should make that distinction. D Boland (talk) 02:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes they are separate, and I have not heard of the use of the 'beloved' term outside of gaming. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. D Boland (talk) 19:36, 29 May 2008 (UTC)