Talk:September 11 attacks

Quotation

I hope I'm putting this discussion in the appropriate place on the page. If not, feel free to move it. Anyway, VegitaU and I disagree on a point and I wanted to see what others think. In the memorial section, there is a quotation. I like the version of the quotation that includes the name of the person that said it:

In addition, pictures were placed all over Ground Zero. Mark Sigmund described it by saying, "In the nearby area, you can’t get away from faces of innocent victims who were killed. Their pictures are everywhere, on phone booths, street lights, walls of subway stations. Everything reminded me of a huge funeral, people quiet and sad, but also very nice. Before, New York gave me a cold feeling; now people were reaching out to help each other.”

VegitaU prefers the version with no attribution:

In addition, pictures were placed all over Ground Zero. A witness described being unable to "get away from faces of innocent victims who were killed. Their pictures are everywhere, on phone booths, street lights, walls of subway stations. Everything reminded me of a huge funeral, people quiet and sad, but also very nice. Before, New York gave me a cold feeling; now people were reaching out to help each other.”

The reason I like the first one better is that (1) I don't like it when people quote me without using my name. (I've had this happen.) I'm sure Mark Sigmund wouldn't like it either (2) If I were writing an essay or report, I would prefer to have the name of the person who said the quote and I would prefer to have the full quotation so that I could change it to suit my essay.

I just dislike anonymous quotes, because Wikipedia has an anonymous quote and then someone else quotes Wikipedia and someone else quotes that and pretty soon no one knows how to find out who originally said the quote. When I look up a quote on a Web site and it says, "anonymous" that bugs me.

But if most people agree with VegitaU, I will go along with that, because I believe in consensus. What do you guys think? Maurajbo (talk) 20:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

That's a good point and well written comment. The reason I deleted it, though, was because of the GA reviewer's suggestions here. Mark was just the son of the reporter that wrote the article. We don't even mention that relationship (nor do I believe we should), so it came off oddly. Suddenly, as the reader goes on, Mark Sigmund appears and no one knows who he is. -- VegitaU (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Rename suggestion

There's been a rename suggestion made on Talk:Celebrations_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks#Requested_move_2.
Cordially, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 08:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Issue changed to a merge suggestion - Talk:Celebrations_of_the_September_11,_2001_attacks#Merge.3F. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 19:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

CT stuff? Reversion of my edit on options activity prior to 9/11

Why was my edit taken out (diff)? Also, what does CT mean? Please use clear, well-recognized acronyms if you're going to use acronyms in an edit summary. Please respond or I will revert. ImpIn | (t - c) 22:47, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, CT means conspiracy theory. Economic activity with no links to the attacks don't belong here. Lot's of stuff happened in the weeks before Sept 11th, 2001. RxS (talk) 22:56, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I've warned the user. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:02, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Did you even glance at the article? This is an article specifically about 9/11, speculating that the terrorists traded options. Read it and then reply. If necessary, I will take this to wherever I have to, because it is not conspiracy theory and it fits in the article. ImpIn | (t - c) 23:04, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

FBI finds no proof of insider trading prior to 9/11. 9/11 Commission finds nothing. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:10, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Then we can note those papers as well. However, the paper I put in was done by an academic (Poteshman) in the field of business. It says that there was unusual activity. This is not the FBI's field; it is this academic's field. This stuff deserves to be mentioned in the article under motivations. It seems that both of you are entirely set in your opinion. Do you want me to open a RfC? Further, it seems that the NR paper outlining the 9/11 Commission's findings provides a very good balance to Poteshman's paper, showing that there was no insider trading. ImpIn | (t - c) 23:16, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't see how it fits under motivations when I've given you specific sources renouncing that claim. Maybe it should go in the 9/11 conspiracy theories article. Here it is again: the State Department reiterates - no trading after an "exhaustive search". It's your privilege to take this issue wherever you want. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

It's still a theorized motivation published in a RS by an author who has published at least 39 papers in finance. It doesn't matter if it has been contradicted; both will balance each other. Plus, it's not a "conspiracy" claim, unless by conspiracy you mean the general conspiracy by the terrorists to commit the action (which, technically, was a conspiracy, but is discussed in "responsibility", a strange name). ImpIn | (t - c) 23:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

And that reply illustrates exactly why it shouldn't be included. Of course it matters that is has been debunked. Otherwise I might as well copy the Loose Change script in here and then just write "lol, j/k!" Now you take an issue with the throughly proven and re-proven account we have written here as a "conspiracy"? You might as well take this up with the admins, because we're just going to argue back and forth here. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:32, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I finally found the diff. These allegations were discussed here and deleted here. -- VegitaU (talk) 23:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

That was no discussion. That was a statement by one person -- I clearly see relevance to this article. If something has been claimed by a RS, and there is a subsequent debunking, it makes more sense to include both. Encyclopedias are here to record information. What surprises me is that you don't realize that by immediately settling the question of insider trading in the main article, you would actually decrease interest in the 9/11 conspiracy theories. I don't take issue with the "conspiracy theory" label, which is well-accepted, but I don't like the "responsibility" title much (vague), and I don't think that insider trading can be categorized as "conspiracy theory" rather than "responsibility". The author of this paper clearly targets the terrorists as the ones trading. Do you dispute that? I do wonder why Poteshman didn't mention the work done by the government, however. ImpIn | (t - c) 00:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

The claims that unusual options trading was observed have been widely reported, but also widely debunked. Since they are generally not accepted to have any credence or importance, it is inappropriate to claim they do. Encyclopedias record information, yes — but not indiscriminately, and especially not when that information is widely regarded to be false, misleading, or of no relevance to the topic. --Haemo (talk) 01:45, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No. The claims of unusual options activity have been confirmed by researchers in finance. The connection of this activity to the terrorists (or other parties) has been dismissed. Two separate things. However, it's not worth battling over; I see it is covered at the 9/11 advance-knowledge debate. ImpIn | (t - c) 02:03, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

If the connection between this type of trading and the terrorists has been dismissed, then it doesn't belong here in the first place. If it's been dismissed it probably doesn't belong in 9/11 advance-knowledge debate either. RxS (talk) 04:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree it should not be in this article as the put options were rejected by the FBI and the 911 commision. However, it should be in the 911 conspiracy theories article or perhaps it is more approriate for the 911 advance-knowledge debate article. Don't be put off by the explanations you are given as to the claims being debunked. Financial experts are still virtually unanimous that the options are suspicious and should be properly investigated. Before the limited U.S. investigations even began the FBI had already stated (in Congress) that they saw nothing that was suspicious in the trades (10X is considered evidence of insider trading and for 911 it was 285X). The ONLY reason the claims were dismissed, according to the 911 commision, was because the company that made the majority of the options was not in any way connected to al Qaeda (they found it was coincidence). What makes it relevant for the other articles is that the manager of that company was the executive director of the CIA. It should also be noted that it was not just put options, there was also suspicious trading in 5-year bonds and oil and gold futures (in one case over $5 billion for a single transaction) and a surge of more than $100 million in illegal transactions on the WTC's own computors in the hours before the attack. Wayne (talk) 05:39, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

RxS, you don't seem to understand that one RS does not immediately silence another RS, especially when each is equally (or uniquely) qualified to make claims. ImpIn | (t - c) 09:00, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

As a rejected theory, it clearly doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps it belongs in 9/11 advance-knowledge debate. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 12:59, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it doesn't belong in this article, but I don't know if it is the fact that it is rejected as much as it is the fact that it is of little significance in the main event. ImpIn | (t - c) 22:28, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

A little bit of both. --Tarage (talk) 08:08, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Yeah, actually my statement doesn't make a lotta sense, especially considering that I tried to add this in earlier (before I knew about the 9/11 Commission's investigation). The fact that it was dismissed reduces its relevance -- although, like Kauffner, I think there's an argument to be made for mentioning it still. Like I said, illuminating this fact actually nips the conspiracy concerns in the bud. ImpIn | (t - c) 01:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Everyone's heard of this insider trading stuff, so I think it should be mentioned in the article. But the 9/11 commission did a good job of debunking it. The company that purchased the suspicious put options was at same time purchasing airline stock. It strikes me as inheritently unlikely that the hijackers would give the names of the airlines they were targeting to stockbrokers. Most of the hijackers had no idea they were even on a suicide mission, so there seems to have been an usually strict "need to know" rule. Kauffner (talk) 09:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Everyone's heard of a lot of false information about 9/11. This is the place for factual information. No insider trading. -- VegitaU (talk) 16:25, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

OK. It's rather frustrating that you and RxS seem to display a lack of understanding of the nature of facts and encyclopedic information. It is a fact that there was highly unusual trading (probability ~3%) preceding these attacks. It is a fact that this was noted by academics and traders, and highlighted in the news. It is a fact that the suspicious trading was investigated by the 9/11 commission and found to be innocuous. It is not a fact that there was no insider trading. Do I have to spell out the difference for you? We do not know that there was actually no insider trading. We just know that the 9/11 Commission believed there was not. ImpIn | (t - c) 01:29, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The 9/11 Commission investigated and found nothing. No one disagrees on this point. The 9/11 commission is a reliable source and their points and conclusions carry a heavy weight. I'm not sure how to prove to you that there was no insider trading, but since so few people seem to hold that point of view, it would be undue weight to add this point. If we had to list everything the 9/11 Commission investigated from insider trading to bombs in the building that were later proven to have no merit, we'd have an article that went nowhere. Fact or not, major reliable sources (FBI, 9/11 COM, State department) all say: no trading. And reliable sources are the ones that hold weight here on Wikipedia. This is about verifiability, not truth. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:38, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• It doesn't need it to be proven. I'm not asserting that insider trading happened. I'm just emphasizing the fact that widespread media speculation about a highly unusual phenomenon is encyclopedic information, as is its subsequent dismissal. These are facts relevant to the occurence. RxS, who expressed above that "since its debunked it shouldn't even be in the 9/11 advance knowledge debate", and yourself, both seem to not comprehend this, RxS especially. ImpIn | (t - c) 01:46, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There isn't widespread media speculation about insider trading. In fact, considering the enormous number of reliable and mainstream sources, there's hardly any at all. Reliable sources are the ones we draw from here. If you want to speculate about these things, there are plenty of web sites for you. This isn't one of them however. RxS (talk) 01:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

There certainly was soon after the attacks. This article is largely a historical description of the event. The fact that Poteshman published a paper in 2006 on it is a testament to the fact that this interest remains to some degree -- although current interest, like I said, is somewhat irrelevant when we're discussing the historical event. ImpIn | (t - c) 02:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

In the wake of the attacks there was widespread speculation about everything. Now, seven years later, we have definitive answers to almost all that speculation and we've written those answers here and cited them. Speculation may be encyclopedic, but it doesn't go here where only factual cited information is written. Like I said above, you can put this in another subarticle about the attacks to your liking, but not here where we state cited facts. -- VegitaU (talk) 02:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

• Oh, speculation about everything? Really. Some people were speculating that space invaders from the moon were doing the attack? I'd never heard that one. I doubt it reached CNN. No, your attempt to characterize this as wild speculation by a couple obscure people is clearly false. It was in the mainstream news repeatedly, continued to get attention, was investigated by the Commission, and recently had a paper published on it. I keep getting drawn back to this because of the assertion of blatant falsities. There was fairly limited speculation after the event, and this speculation, if notable enough, deserves to be mentioned in the article. I already ceded putting it in this particular article. ImpIn | (t - c) 02:45, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I didn't realize your imagination was so wild. Please try to stay focused. News agencies were speculating on everything having to do with airliners smashing into buildings: what could have caused it, what exactly happened, whether there were bombs in the buildings, who the hijackers were, how they managed to break into the cockpit, who they were, who directed the attack, possible targets for Flight 93... it was endless. And now we have answers to all that and no reason to write "some organizations thought there might be more bombs in the building, but this was later proven false." -- VegitaU (talk) 02:50, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Insider trading is not completely dismissed.

"Congressman Dennis Kucinich revealed that he is initiating an investigation of the insider trading that took place leading up to 9/11, particularly in regards to put options placed on American Airlines and United Airlines stock."
February 22, 2008.

The insider trading issue has NEVER been disproved, only the connection of the trading to al Qaeda has. The conclusion from the 911 commission:
"Some unusual trading did in fact occur, but each trade proved to have an innocuous explanation. For example... a single US-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to Al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6".
The issue isn’t whether the guilty parties had "conceivable ties to Al Qaeda", it is whether they had foreknowledge of the 9/11 attacks. Having said that the topic is still not appropriate for this article. Take it to the fore knowledge page. Wayne (talk) 11:33, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

One member of Congress suggesting an investigation is not a source that holds up to NPOV; it is political grand-standing. Get ahold of yourself. XINOPH | TALK 16:23, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Why are we so certain?

I personally believe that the article states that the only possible explanation for the atttacks is that Al-Qeuda and Usama Bin Laden carried it out. However, there has been sufficient evidence that they were not involved.

I'm not saying it should be completely changed, all I ask is that the beginning of the article state that it is "Believed to have been commited by Usama Bin Laden and Al-Queda".

-User:Magicman710 —Preceding comment was added at 04:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I personally believe you should read the archives and discover that we have had this debate before, and the consensus is to leave it as it is. --Tarage (talk) 09:20, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't call it consensus. There is a core group of editors that are very good at keeping CT (Conspiracy Theory) ideas out of this article. They have been doing a lot of work, regardless of the reliable sources and arguments surrounding it. That kind of information normally gets reverted very quickly. Dscotese (talk) 04:21, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

"Excluding the hijackers..."

• I was reading this article today and found this part in the lead paragraphs odd. Why are the hijackers excluded from the fatality count? JuJube (talk) 10:30, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Obviously it's important to distinguish perpetrators from victims, but I see no reason to omit the number of hijackers (which is already included in the sidebar), so...changed "Excluding the hijackers" to "Excluding the 19 hijackers." Cosmic Latte (talk) 10:38, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Featured Articles

I just wanted to give everyone a heads up that I'm planning to nominate this article for Featured Article status soon. Being a huge article on such a major event, it'll probably take over a month to get through and will undoubtedly run into opposition. If you have any concerns, please address them now. Also, when an opposing point comes up on the FA-review board, please address it immediately if I'm not around. Thanks.

In other news, American Airlines Flight 11 was recently nominated for FA and American Airlines Flight 77 is up right now for review. -- VegitaU (talk) 01:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, if no one has any objections then, I'm going to nominate this for FA-review tomorrow. -- VegitaU (talk) 21:27, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Let's finish addressing the outstanding issues on the American Airlines Flight 77 article. For this article, I do have concerns that it's not quite ready for FA, but not time (I am on wikibreak) to address them or give detailed comments. --Aude (talk) 13:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

It's already FA. If you have the knowledge and sources to improve it, go ahead and do so, but I don't have any books or sources beyond the ones I researched to cite from. -- VegitaU (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

AA77 is a FA because I didn't put "oppose" (to hold it up) but rather put "comments". That article still needs work to address the issues. Once I'm done with that and done with my wikibreak, then I can work on this article and help ensure it's in the best shape possible before going to FA. One of my concerns is that the article does not follow summary style and jive with the subarticles as well as could be done. I'm willing to help with that, but not while on wikibreak and not while still working on AA77. --Aude (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The article has a lengthy section entitled "motives." Bin Laden's famous 1998 fatwa gives the Koranic injunction to kill non-Muslims as his No. 1 rationale. Iraq figures prominently in this document as well. Saddam seems to be Bin Laden's hero. (Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state.) Bin Laden was living peacefully in Saudi Arabia until 1992 and left because he opposed the Gulf War against Saddam. None of this is in the article, which instead focuses on U.S. aid to Israel as a motive. Kauffner (talk) 14:26, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

We do mention this as a motive. "...confronting Moscow in Afghanistan, inserting the U.S. military in the Persian Gulf," and "strengthening Israel as a base for a southern flank against the Soviets" contributed to al-Qaeda's motives." The fatwa is mentioned as evidence that he had motive to commit the act because he had said that Muslims should kill Americans. Saddam isn't mentioned at all in the document so your assertion that he's bin Laden's "hero" is speculation. "Living peacefully in Saudi Arabia"? He was a mujahadeen fighter during the Afghan War, he returned to Saudi Arabia and when Hussein invaded Kuwait in August 1990, bin Laden offered to muster his mujahadeen fighters to defend the country. The Saudi Family chose American support instead and bin Laden, infuriated and convinced that the Saudi Family is corrupt and must be overthrown, left for Sudan in 1992 to continue his terrorist operations. -- VegitaU (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The issue with Iraq is that bin Laden did offer to defend Saudi Arabia when Iraq invaded Kuwait. When the Saudis chose American support, the U.S. military established military bases in Saudi Arabia (the holy land of Mecca). Bin Laden objected to "infidels" in the holy land, and objected to the corrupt Saudi regime which has American support. --Aude (talk) 16:15, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

"fight and slay the pagans"; "I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped." This is Koranic scripture quoted right on top of Bin Laden's 1998 statement -- which also has the word "jihad" (holy war) in the title. Of course, Bin Laden is also a man of many grievances. To go by his post-9/11 video, he's got beefs ranging from the breakup of the Ottoman Empire to the Reconquista of Spain to sanctions against Iraq. I think the article needs to address the idea of religion as a motive. "Jihad" is mentioned once, but only as Bin Laden's response to U.S. policy. In fact, I would describe the "motives" section as a thinly disguised critique of U.S. foreign policy. Kauffner (talk) 18:01, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

U.S. foreign policy is exactly the why to bin Laden's argument. Islam is the how. Through the teachings of radical Islam, and because of the U.S.'s behaviors, he feels it is justified to kill Americans. If bin Laden wanted to wage war on America because of the reconquista, he'd be leading an army of zero. -- VegitaU (talk) 21:55, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

So Bin Laden's real motive is....that he agrees with your views on U.S. foreign policy?? This is solipsism. You come up with the most favorable possible interpretion for everything the guy does, like you're his lawyer. He went to back to Saudi, not because people in Afghanistan suspected him of murdering Azzam, but because he's such a patriot and wanted to fight Saddam. Jihad means killing people who refuse to worship Allah. It's unlikely that a murderers' real motives are as noble as the ones he claims. This article looks behind Bin Laden's stated motives to discover more palatable ones. Kauffner (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

He went back to Saudi Arabia to fight Saddam. You keep contradicting yourself. You first said he was "living peacefully". Then you said Saddam was his hero. And I never said anything about Azzam. Kauffner, I've been studying this for years; including the testimony, remarks, and speeches by Michael Scheuer. You're trying to find something otherworldy to this guy and there isn't any. You don't know what you're talking about. But that's nothing new. -- VegitaU (talk) 16:19, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

What's the contradiction? You can't peacefully admire Saddam? Bin Laden was already back in Saudi before Saddam invaded Kuwait. Not counting Azzam, bin Laden's first terrorist attack was a December 1992 bombing of a hotel in Yemen, i.e. after he moved to Sudan. Yeah, Scheuer.....The CIA must be one screwed up place if the guy in charge of tracking bin Laden down is a bin Laden fan. To get back to article, IMO, the "motives" section should simply summarize Bin Laden's 1996 and 1998 statements. Right now, it quotes some authors who never even met Bin Laden and are just speculating wildly. Kauffner (talk) 17:39, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

How many were pulled from the rubble?

I think the article needs to state how many living people were pulled from the rubble after the buildings' collapse. The article Rescue and recovery effort after the September 11, 2001 attacks makes the curious statement that 11 people were rescued from the rubble on September 12, but the cited source is a televised Larry King show, and it isn't stated how many were rescued from the rubble on September 11. (I presume it was 0 people on September 13 and afterwards.)

If anyone could find this data with a citable source, then I'd appreciate it being added to the "Rescue and recovery" section, which currently doesn't actually discuss the level of success of the rescue and recovery. Tempshill (talk) 20:38, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Twenty. -- VegitaU (talk) 21:04, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

New WikiProject

Now that we are moving forward with improving 9/11 topic articles, I have setup a new WikiProject to allow us to coordinate things and help each other. I think that might help. --Aude (talk) 13:30, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Collapse7WTC

There is content in "Collapse of the World Trade Center" that appears to merit either substantial modification or complete removal from this article. For example, the article section states in relevant part:

• the collapse of 7 WTC will appear in a separate report ...;
• This was confirmed by an independent study by Purdue University ...;
• The NIST report to be released in the summer of 2008 [...] will reportedly conclude that ...;
• Reportedly the report will conclude that [...];

These and other items included in this section of the article appear to be inconsistent with WP:NOTCRYSTAL. None of the references cited provide details either "confirming" or "concluding" facts or evidence in question in this article subsection. None of the references demonstrate that any prospective reports will include observations based on direct examination. There is mention of "working hypotheses" and "computer models":

   "Our working hypothesis now actually suggests that it was normal building fires [...] that may  
   have caused the ultimate collapse of the buildings."

Additionally, the references cited assert the validity of these hypotheses as being responsive to unofficial conspiracy theorists, but this article is not about those non-official conspiracy theorist accounts. There's already a separate article for that.

Consequently, because this section: 1) asserts items not directly supported by the references; 2) contains assertions that are forward-looking and prospective; and 3) casts forward-looking interpretations in a light not consistent with the references used for support; it would seem appropriate that this content be removed from the article unless and until someone can address these deficiencies. Thanks. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 12:44, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

See no reason to delete reported conclusions of the summer 2008 NIST report. The official government report on the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is a notable event almost certain to take place in a time frame noted as possibly ok in the No Crystal ball section. The BBC by any stretch of the imagination is considered a reliable source. The reporting comes out of a special series they are running called the conspiracy files. This installment of the series deals with conspiracy theories dealing with the WTC7 collapse. That is why the articles note conspiracy theories. Of course as you say the conspiracy theories have there own article that plus the fact that this is a summary section is why conspiracy theories are correctly not mentioned here. This is a section of about the "official" investigations and the BBC News reporting about the upcoming report investigations is credible research into what the conclusions one "official investigation" the very topic of this section will reach. The fact that the cite also contains information not germane to this section is irrelevant. "Working hypothesis" "computer modeling" are direct quotes the BBC claims are from the lead investigator. The conclusions are all that matter as far as inclusion into the section. The techniques used to reach them are irrelevant for this summary section. Edkollin (talk) 05:00, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

The official government report on the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is a notable event almost certain to take place

That's good. We agree that the expected release of a report in Summer 2008 (i.e., any day now) is sufficiently probable to merit mention. Now all that's left is to either derive the rest of the analysis directly from cited references, or otherwise clarify the apparently unsubstantiated claims.

For just one example, the article asserts "This was confirmed by an independent study by Purdue University" ... what was confirmed by an independent study by Purdue University, the fact that a report is expected in Summer 2008?

If that's what this is intended to convey, such "confirmation" is unsubstantiated, let alone too trivial to be worth mentioning in the first place. None of the cites offered even address this. If the statement is claiming that the prospective conclusions have been independently corroborated by separate bodies, this is wholly unsupported by the cites.

Moreover, the cite which you yourself support as "a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination" includes the following details, none of which is enumerated in this section of the article:

Officially-recognized conclusions:

* With no steel from Tower 7 to study, investigators have instead made four extremely complex computer models

* the analysis that has never been done before

* FEMA concluded that the building collapsed because intense fires [...] had "only a low probability of occurrence"

* collapse potentially made architectural history, [yet] all steel from the skyscraper were taken away to be melted down

---

Please note carefully, none of the above enumerated salient facts appear in this article section, yet all of them are apparently undisputed by any official source. All of them are presented as officially-recognized facts in the cite. All of them vitiate the probability of a "conclusive, corroborated and definitive investigation".

Let's ignore that a one-or-two-time never-before-done workup of a hypothesis based on computer-generated models with zero direct analysis of physical evidence might lack credibility as a "conclusive and corroborated investigation". Even then, the selection of 'officially-recognized' facts as presented in this subsection is clearly an incomplete presentation of all relevant facts. Even if one is to deliberately omit any mention of "non-official conspiracy theories", the article treatment clearly appears to present an unbalanced treatment of referenced and relevant details.

To be comprehensive and non-speculative, this section calls for either: 1) significant reduction of the material currently presented; or 2) inclusion of relevant claims (both in support of and mitigating) the probability of a "conclusive, corroborated and definitive investigation". dr.ef.tymac (talk) 06:46, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Everything has been cited. Doesn't matter what you think is a valid source or not, these are cited facts. -- VegitaU (talk) 16:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I know what he is getting at he thought the way the NIST WTC7 investigation was conducted sucked. How the investigation was conducted is of huge impotence but irrelevant for the narrow purposes of inclusion in this section. If the BBC reported they came to a conclusion based on a coin toss it is article worthy because the BBC is a reliable source by any stretch of the imagination as far as Wikipedia is concerned (See below). If this investigation is eventually criticized by "reliable sources" it should be noted ala 9/11 commission. What I do not understand is what VegitaU is getting at. He seems to me in agreement that cite is reliable the but then deleted it anyway because of "repetitive wordiness with unacceptable reference format". That is all well and good but the approach to me would seem to be to fix it not delete it. Edkollin (talk) 05:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Someone has to decide what sources are reliable. My reading of history suggests that the method wiki has been using (mainstream news media and official reports from the government) provides a means to present a coherent and acceptable account. "Reliable" used this way doesn't matter to me, so I don't post on articles here any more. "Thought provoking" is far more illuminating, so I only use the talk pages. Dscotese (talk) 04:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Clarification for Edkollin

Edkollin, you were sorta close to what I was "getting at", but there's one very important qualification. As you know, personal opinions of "suckiness" really don't mean squat and don't belong in WP articles. What does belong, however, is a balanced, NPOV, and reliable representation of what appears in cited references to the extent relevant to the article.

Nowhere in the article is there any mention of the "uniqueness" of the study methodologies here, even though such mention is included in the cited reference.

We see referenced here a purportedly forensic analysis that doesn't even include the inspection of physical evidence. ... Regardless of whether you or I think that "sucks" ... the fact that such approach is not only unique, but cited in the reference as "perhaps historic" ... it seems amazing that a balanced and neutral reading of the cited source would permit such a detail to be entirely omitted from this article. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 15:35, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

That's it? "This investigation is unique in that it used computer modeling to simulate physical stresses." -- VegitaU (talk) 15:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

The article section in question seems to omit a certain cross-section of facts from the cited reference. So far, the rationales offered for excluding those facts do not seem compelling. That's why this request for discussion was initiated.

In such cases we can: 1) balance the presentation by inclusion; or 2) balance the presentation by removal. The alternate option, sustaining the status quo, seems inadequate. You are, of course, free to disagree. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 17:02, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

What do you want it to say exactly. Write it here. -- VegitaU (talk) 17:04, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I will decline that proposal at this time and defer to the many other eyeballs looking at this article; and come back to the issue if time and priorities permit. A quick course of action would have been to "balance by removal", but that does not appear likely to lead to any quick resolution. Cheers. dr.ef.tymac (talk) 02:13, 12 July 2008

But balance by removal has already occurred. The NIST conclusions by the reported by the BBC have been deleted and I still do not understand why (UTC).Edkollin (talk) 09:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Burrial Claims

Alvin Hellerstein, on July 7, 2008 ruling is the biggest thing ever since 9/11. It is so notable and controversial, since it put to the trash the memories of those who lived and suffered.nysun.com, Judge Rules for City on Search for September 11 Victim Remainsbbc.co.uk, Judge rejects 9/11 burial claimsThese links or reference show the grief untold.--Florentino floro (talk) 12:55, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I do not know about biggest thing ever but agree it is notable enough for article. Edkollin (talk) 05:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

"Upon the United States" VS. "Upon Targets Inside the United States"

This article currently begins with a phrase reading in part: "..suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon the United States." I would like to change this to read "suicide attacks by al-Qaeda upon targets inside the United States." The former phrasing assumes and foregrounds America as a cohesive entity which can be "attacked" rather than a complex and shifting arrangement of discourses, alliances, values, and people characterized by diversity and contestation. Also, the former phrasing doesn't differentiate between America as a nation-state (polity) and America as a socio-cultural entity. I think this is a mistake because it claims coevality between the state (system of government) and its citizens, and it also serves to mystify the attacks by removing them from their political context rooted in specific conditions. I believe the suggested revision offers a more accurate and balanced description of the attacks. What do you think?

Lllbllll (talk) 14:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)lllbllll, 07-11-2008Lllbllll (talk) 14:43, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Seems good to me. There isn't definate consensus that the United States, as a whole, was the intended target. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:50, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Osama bin Laden didn't release a video or issue a fatwā detailing his grievances against the-WTC-and-the-Pentagon-and-possibly-the-White-House. We could report on a whole spectrum of opinions regarding the attacks, all the way from "US = Great Satan" to "an attack on democracy and freedom"; the one thing I don't see on that spectrum is "a bunch of targets that just happened to be within the borders of the US". SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 15:51, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't think that through, sorry. Recalling bin Laden's fatwā, we can conclude the United States was the target. Stating that the targets were in the US opens up the door to adding assertions that bin Laden wasn't behind it. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:04, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree - It would be naive to think bin Laden wanted to attack architectural structures without any further implications. -- VegitaU (talk) 16:23, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Disagree I think the notion of "The United States" needs to be problematized by making that statement more specific and balanced. Bin Laden certainly attacked an "idea" of America, not merely structures, but saying an "attack upon the United States" suggests it actually exists as a stable, consensual whole. "Attack upon targets" foregrounds the acts as political and directed at the government / institutions of power (global capital industries) rather than an ill-defined and ostensibly unified populace. Lllbllll (talk) 20:19, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know exactly what "problematized" means but it does not sound helpful. I think that Lllbllll is reading meaning into the phrase "United States" which is making this seem like a far more complex philosophical problem than it really is. I also think that mentioning the word "targets" implies less strongly that the attacks were political than simply mentioning the name of the country. Every attack is against a target, more or less by definition. It isn't necessary to say so explicitly, and the lead paragraph is supposed to be concise. If anyone else if following, I'd welcome other input. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:29, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Clarification I think I need to restate my argument a bit. What I'm trying to say is that if there were an attack upon the Toledo, OH courthouse, it wouldn't be considered an "attack upon Ohio." Saying that it does suggests that everyone in Ohio considers themselves an "Ohioian" and smudges over diversity and disagreement and the divisions within a culture. It incorportates them into an ideology without their consent. If Bin Laden had attacked just the Pentagon, would it have been an "attack on America?" What if a plane crashed into a local library? I'm just suggesting that the idea of WTC = America is a mystification that conceals the natural fissures within America and serves the status quo. Lllbllll (talk) 21:00, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Whatever the reason for 911 it was definately not an attack on the United States in the general meaning of the phrase. The most consistant reasons are that they were an attack on the government rather than the people of the U.S. If you read these quotes by bin Laden and others you might be able to work out the correct wording.

• Mir Aimal Kasi: "What I did was a retaliation against the US government for American policy in the Middle East and its support of Israel"
• Letter claiming responsibility for 1993 WTC attack: "This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel, the state of terrorism"
• Bin Laden: "The fatwah is general and it includes all those who participate in, or help the Jewish occupiers in killing Muslims"
• Atta's motivation as quoted by a friend: "about Israeli politics in the region and about US protection of these Israeli politics"
• Bin Laden: "we are striking them because of their evil and injustice".

The government pushes the erronous idea that it is a war which is reinforced by saying "upon the United States" when it is clear no war was intended. Perhaps.."suicide attacks by al-Qaeda within the United States, targeting what they believed to be symbols of American political and economic policy" would be a more factual statement?Wayne (talk) 05:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

My understanding of a Fatwa as well as a Jihad are that they are the Muslim equals to a declaration of war. Lest we forget that the attacks, not just 9/11, have been against anyone opposing, them that they can follow through on. They have had a number of planned attacks fail as well, not just against the U.S. and/or its entities, but against other entities in other countries as well.--MONGO 07:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

You could not be more wrong.

• A Fatwa is only an opinion by a cleric and is not binding. People choose to follow it or not based on their opinion of the person issuing it and their own conscience. For westerners a Fatwa can be considered as similar in authority to your doctor telling you to give up smoking (and in fact a Fatwa against smoking has been issued and is largely ignored by Muslims).
• A Jihad is considered a declaration of war if the subject has made an unprovoked attack on an Islamic country and it allows only defence. Jihad forbids "beginning hostilities, acts of aggression, violation of the rights of others, or harming innocents". Terrorism cannot be justified under Jihad so if some Muslims choose to view Jihad as a war of aggression then this can hardly be applied to an entire country so does not fit the definition of war. Wayne (talk) 15:05, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I see...so that means that they wouldn't be waging all out war if they had the means to do so? They did as much as they could...if they had the means to do more to get the U.S. out of the middle east and to erase Israel off the map, they would surely do it. But thanks anyway for the clarification on Fatwas and Jihads...--MONGO 14:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I doubt any terrorist organisation would ever have the means to wage all out war. These groups misrepresent their religion to justify their actions the same way many Christian groups, such as the KKK, did. We should never equate terrorist actions as being representative of a religion any more than we would do for the KKK. 911 was a terrorist attack not a war but because some claim it is we are fighting wars against countries and religions while the terrorists are free to carry on unhindered. Wayne (talk) 13:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how you figure the attack was against the US government...the WTC was a private and state run enterprise. In addition, most of the quotes above aren't government specific or really specific enough to narrow it down any further. RxS (talk) 15:18, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

And you forgot the quote-of-all-quotes: "We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim ... to comply with God's order to kill Americans." Not kill government officials or military personnel. In fact, the interview with Peter Bergen, bin Laden said "We do not differentiate between those dressed in military uniforms and civilians." It is clear he's talking about the American people and the people are America. -- VegitaU (talk) 15:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Good Point Lllbllll (talk) 16:16, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Exactly my point. The "kill americans" quote (if you read the entire interview) refers to Americans directly helping Israel, it is only later he says they should take the fight to the U.S. and this conflicts with Islamic law so this last part is not valid. This view is reinforced by the second quote "We do not differentiate---" as it is from a Fatwah and thus a single persons opinion not binding on the community or even his own followers. It is irrelevant who Bin Laden is talking about. Imagine....a racist statement by the grand whatever of the KKK and then every single American being held responsible for it, that is no different. The terrorists are responsible for their own actions not Muslims. The current wording "against the US" is possibly too political as the term is used to justify an illegal war. It's really only a minor point that I'm not too bothered by but for accuracy it needs to be addressed. Wayne (talk) 14:18, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

BTW...in that interview Bin Laden first stated America does not distinguish between killing civilians and military and even kills women and children so Muslims should do the same which changes the relevance of what he said. Context is important. Then at the very end of the interview he says none of his followers are obligated to do anything he says which is interesting. Wayne (talk) 14:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems to me theological question of justification is one we don't need to answer here and now. The stated motivation for the attacks was the actions of the US government; the means was to strike against military, economic, and government institutions within the US; and the immediate effect of the attack was damage to buildings and loss of citizens and military personnel (all US except for a minority of the civilians). The question is how best to represent that information briefly and concisely in the lead. Perhaps "against the US" does over-simplify, but at least it does encompass all of the above, and more specific information is provided later in the article. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 17:23, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

A country is more than it's government, particularly a country that, at least formally, is a democracy. The World Trade Center was not attacked because of an accident of geography. Seven years later the hysteria over the World Trade Center has yet to die down - no-one anywhere on the planet thinks of it as just another office building. It was highly symbolic of the US and US corporations, which run the US government and determine US foreign policy. Peter Grey (talk) 21:58, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

From Kaaskop6666

Anyways, the United States has been in a Cold War with the USSR empire since 1945. The Russians have SS-20 rockets, which can fly over US territory and carry atomic warheads. It is well known that the USA has a semi-automated defence against this. Now, the Russians do not equipe their rockets with transponders. It follows that objects without transponder can still be detected by the military. I feel the article should address the issue how Civilian airliners would have been able to evade detection and interception for 50 minutes after the first building was ever hit. It should also take into account the testimony of your Minister of Transport to the 9/11 Commission, who overheard your Vice President being updated on the progress of an airliner prior to the destruction of the Pentagon.

Greetings from Holland, and thanks for this great project, I like it! Kaaskop6666 (talk) 10:10, 15 July 2008 (UTC) The preceding post was actually made by Da monster under your bed (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

use of the word terrorist

Can someone explain why the use of the word terrorist, is acceptable in this article? I only ask this as I have been editing a few Northern Ireland/Ireland/IRA related articles, and it seemed to be the case that the use of the word terrorist was frowned upon. Are there some boxes that need to be ticked before using the word? Sennen goroshi (talk) 13:07, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

The preponderance of mainstream and reliable sources call them terrorists, that's where we draw from so it makes sense to use that term. RxS (talk) 13:38, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

If you consider mainstream to be sources in the western world, then yes - they are terrorists, but in the eyes of millions of other people they are not terrorists, perhaps a more neutral term would be suitable? Sennen goroshi (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Words_to_avoid#Extremist.2C_terrorist_and_freedom_fighter Sennen goroshi (talk) 13:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Please read the archives and the FAQ for the article. This has been discussed many times and consensus has been to leave the wording as is. --PTR (talk) 14:13, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I did try looking through the archives, there are a lot of them. I am merely going along with standard wikipedia guidelines..there is no reason why this article should have special treatment. Sennen goroshi (talk) 14:14, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Where is the FAQ? I see no FAQ.. also if there has been some form of consensus regarding the word in question, can you link me to it, I can't be bothered with 10 plus pages of archives Sennen goroshi (talk) 14:18, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

We were working on one but I guess it didn't get put up yet. All the discussions are in the archives. --PTR (talk) 14:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Where in the archives ? I see lots of discussions repeated time after time regarding the use of this word, I don't see any clear consensus. Infact I would suggest that as this is brought time and time again, then as it stands, there is no consensus, so it should revert back to original wikipedia guidelines, ie. only use the word terrorist when you are quoting someone - he said she was a terrorist, for example. Sennen goroshi (talk) 14:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Several places in the archives. The reliable sources use the term "terrorist". We can't attribute to just one of the sources and we can't list all the sources that use the term terrorist without having a long list of refs which violates undue. There have been many discussions so please read the archives. --PTR (talk) 14:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

In several places there seems to be no consensus achieved, if you are not using the word terrorist without quoting someone, then don't use it, as per wikipedia guidelines. "Extremism and terrorism are pejorative terms. They are words with intrinsically negative connotations that are generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and whose opinions and actions one would prefer to ignore. Use of the terms "extremist", "terrorist" and "freedom fighter" implies a moral judgment; and if one party can successfully attach the label to a group, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint.

In line with the Wikipedia Neutral Point of View policy, the words "Extremist", "Terrorist" and "Freedom fighter" should be avoided unless there is a verifiable citation indicating who is calling a person or group by one of those names in the standard Wikipedia format of "X says Y". In an article the words should be avoided in the unqualified "narrative voice" of the article. As alternatives, consider less value-laden words such as insurgent, paramilitary, or partisan."

The guidelines are pretty clear on the subject, I see no reason as to why this article should have special treatment, some people view them as terrorists, some don't - so don't use the word. Sennen goroshi (talk) 14:47, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That is a guideline - not a policy. There, to date, has been no consensus to remove the word terrorist. --PTR (talk) 14:50, 18 July 2008 (UTC)