Talk:BBC

Largest broadcasting corporation in the world?

I'm not sure that's necessarily true - Wouldn't that be News Corporation and not the BBC? — Wackymacs (talk) 10:17, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

After taking into account the world service, unlikely also what measure or size are you going on? Coverage, company size, number of channels? --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 15:34, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I think a similar debate over this claim in the article has happened before. One point made by another editor that is worth re-highlighting is that News Corp's tentacles stretch into other areas such as film production and print media (whereas ignoring a relatively miniscule magazine business owned by BBC Worldwide, the BBC is purely a broadcaster). Once these are stripped out, of the equation News Corp's size is greatly reduced. Pit-yacker (talk) 18:40, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Nonetheless, News Corporation has over $60 billion revenue compared to BBC's approx. $8 billion budget. Even News Corp's revenue from broadcasting alone is more than $8 billion. The source used at the moment is simply a press release by Verisign - there's no proof provided to show that BBC is the largest broadcasting corporation in the world based on revenue. — Wackymacs (talk) 11:29, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I must also note, there is the TimeWarner company - although again it does more than just broadcasting, it is large - CNN is influential in many countries. But it might just be worth looking into these more closely to ensure the claims made on the BBC page are valid - especially since this claim is in the first sentence of the lead. — Wackymacs (talk) 11:40, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Going into this further, CNN's International service and its related networks reach more than 1.5 billion people - In comparison, BBC World reaches 281 million worldwide. So it can certainly, as far as I'm concerned, be argued that BBC is *not* the biggest broadcaster in terms of revenue, number of channels and worldwide coverage. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:06, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm 1.5b? Sounds suspicous. That means a quarter of the worlds population watch it. That's before you consider the billions in Africa, South America, and Asia that dont have electricity never mind satellite or cable TV. Nor those who live in nations where either CNN or all satellite TV is banned. That begs the question: Over what time scale? A year would certainly be believeable especially if you use the traditional broadcasting definition of "reach" (i.e. something like more than 3 mins - that potentially means that if I quickly watch for a few mins once a year in a hotel on holiday I have been "reached"). Hoewever, as an example, according to the article on Wikipedia, 180m listen to the BBC World Service per week. I find it hard to believe that 1.5b individual people tune into CNN International alone every single week (at the very least this sounds like one of those suspicious double (treble,quadruple or more) counting statistics such as 10billion people tuning into the Olympics when there are only 6billion on the planet. Pit-yacker (talk) 17:15, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

All very true - but since the 1.5 billion figure was from Wikipedia (the CNN International page), it is probably false as well - I also found it hard to believe. Looks like someone (not you, but someone) has let people add false information to these kinds of pages on Wikipedia. — Wackymacs (talk) 17:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I would admit the BBC is the biggest is also suspect. Especially with lack of detail in what regard. For example, I could believe the BBC was the World's largest public broadcaster and, although I believe no longer true, between around 1997 and a few years ago it was the world's largest news gathering organisation in terms of the number of reporters that it directly employed, as opposed to (I guess) freelancers and those working possibly in different subsiduaries of other companies in the same group. Perhaps it would be better if we could find a referenced source as in what regard the BBC is the largest? Pit-yacker (talk) 18:08, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree that it is a difficult question. I doubt the criterion of revenue or net profit is useful; as you have stated above, media conglomerates like News Corporation and Time Warner spread their tentacles in many areas beyond broadcasting. However, I find it hard to dispute the fact that no broadcasting system has a wider reach than BBC. CNN does not say it has 1.5b viewers, it says that it is available to 1.5b people, should they bother to buy a satellite aerial or subscribe to a cable service. The number has more to do with the reach of its electromagnetic waves than with the number of people that actually watch it. Probably, if we estimated the number of people that could in theory watch the BBC if so they wanted, the number would probably be similar or perhaps even larger. The number of households that actually receive broadcasting regularly is a much better measure, even more so because one cannot really count how many people are watching, but an estimate of how many TV sets are switched on a given channel can be made. If the data are accurate, then the numbers are indisputable: BBC has 281 million to CNN's 200 million. But I agree it is difficult to compare. Let us try to make some inferences by taking the broadcasting branches of the three combined. News Corporation has FoxNews, which is available in 40+ countries and essentially focuses on the US market, to the extent that the international programming is essentially the same as for the US. It has no radio service. It has enterntainment channels in the US, UK and Australia, but one viewer counts as one, regardless whether they watch one or five channels of the same broadcaster's. So, we may conclude that News Corporation is a feeble dwarf compared to the other two in terms of broadcasting. At its prime in the US, it reached 3.3 million households weekly. Compare with the 75+ million of BBC's wordlwide weekly coverage. In the UK, BSkyB is no competitor to the BBC even when it comes to entertaining.

Time Warner is headquartered in the US. It has several cable broadcasters there, and also has its international service, CNNi, available to 200+ countries. It has no radio service.

BBC, conversely, has an international service that reaches 50% more households than CNNi. And it has a radio, BBC WorldService, operating all over the world in short wavelength. It is surpassed in number of hours only by China's national radio and the Voice of America umbrella. So, it seems to me that the BBC is unsurpassed in terms of coverage of the Earth Surface and of the human population. It is believed that the World Service is the only source of news in certain places of the Earth where there are curbs on freedom of expression. As for revenue, I do not think one can compare private and public broadcasters. BBC is so big precisely because it is not so much interested in profit. And it is open in the UK, which means that all people that have a license (virtually everybody) can watch it, making it more comparable to ABC and NBC in the US than with CNN. It also reaches more than 200 countries.

One can, of course, try and compare other aspects. BBC still claims to be largest news-gatherer of the world. I assume it bases this claim on the number of regional offices, agreements with news outlets and number of foreign correspondents. It boasts more than 200 of the latter. It broadcasts in more than 30 languages.

I think CNN is big, but I doubt there can be a claim that BBC is not the largest broadcasting - not publishing, film-making, and not only TV - corporation in the world as far as the number of viewers is concerned. If another broadcasting system can have a claim to be so distributed and globalized as BBC, perhaps it will be Al-Jazeera in a few years.

I hope I have helped to settle the subject. If no one offers new arguments, I shall revert the statement in the article in a few weeks. Sincerely yours. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.41.100.244 (talk) 03:00, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to point out that you seem to have focused on TV, Broadcasting includes radio. No idea on exact figures but you can get radio signals over a huge area. It is possible to have a larger media organization & and for the BBC still to be the largest broadcaster, but 'Largest broadcaster needs defining first. --Nate1481( ^t/_c) 09:29, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I would also say that a financial measure is the worst ,as the BBC isn't primarily a commercial company and that TV costs far more than radio, coverage (area/potentials) and actual listeners/viewers would seem the most appropriate for a measure of broadcasting. Either way it needs an explanatory note. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nate1481 (talk • contribs) 09:33, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Re this diff, I don't see the point of removing a cited reference in favor of a "citation needed" tag. I understand the cite is from the corporation itself, and I understand a neutral third-party cite would be nice. But how about WP:AGF on the part of the subject here? We have a cite from a source that is generally considered reliable. Is it right to assume that all reason goes out the window when the BBC is describing itself?  Frank  |  talk  20:41, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I truly believe this just proves that the statement isn't entirely correct when you can't find another source but the BBC page. Are you basically saying that the only thing on the web that says the BBC is the largest is the BBC themselves? Surely if it was so true there would be many other reliable sources that could be used. Also, it would help to clarify by what measure - largest by employees, budget, reach, ...? — Wackymacs (talk ~ edits) 06:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I suggest a compromise; how about saying that "it describes itself as the world's largest..."? That would at least match the current citation Stephenb (Talk) 08:19, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. Regarding Wackymacs' point, I'm not sure how or where one would find such a list. I am not saying it's true because the "only" source available (BBC itself) claims it is true. Heck, I don't even know if it is true. It just seems to me it's not a stretch to assume good faith on this point - even if they are a large (or very large) international corporation. (I know, good faith doesn't necessarily apply, but that isn't good faith, now, is it?)  :-)  Frank  |  talk  12:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Liberal vs Left vs Right

I Recently changed the criticisms section, because left wing bias and liberal bias, are the same thing, there is no point in redundancy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.109.162.133 (talk) 02:56, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Only according to the spin-meisters of the US Republican party who created the connection to blacken the term liberal. The real meaning of liberal is about giving people the freedom to do what they want as long as they arent harming others. In the UK a good number of Conservative politicans class themselves as liberal, and someone who is economically liberal is usually anything but left-wing. Equally a good number of left-wing policies are very illiberal. For example, it is liberal to allow two consenting adults two do whatever they like in the privacy of their own home, but not necessarily a left-wing policy. Indeed parties of the far-left often restrict rights to things such as religion and speech. Alternatively, it is also liberal not to unnecesarily restrict the activities of a private company. This however, is more at home with parties of the right than the left. Pit-yacker (talk) 21:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed. The use of the word "liberal" is not the same in Europe (including the UK) as in the US. Americans give "liberal" a meaning that is different to the meaning it holds in Europe, Australia and (unless I'm mistaken) Canada. In Australia, as in France "liberal" is often used as a synonym for "conservative" (or at least economically right-wing), whereas in the US the terms are opposites. Aridd (talk) 11:19, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

BBC Pro Christian Pro God Bias

The UK is supposed to be a secular country and yet the state funded broadcaster is highly pro-christian. I’ve yet to see or hear any Atheism biased broadcasting from the BBC. A good part of Radio 2 and 4 output seems to be pro Christian and pro Christian broadcasters like Simon Mayo seem to be given a free reign to promote their insanity on any channel. The implied logic that its OK to run down Harry Potter but not God when neither actually exist is not conducive to educating and informing an intelligent free thinking well balanced secular society. Respect for all religions, a strong bias towards Christianity, don’t allow the Atheists any time at all is ingrained in the BBC charter. Channel 4 seems to be the only station willing to touch "God doesn’t exist what might be the implications of that on humanity" programming. mikecsmith 03:15, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for our point of view. Taking each point in turn:

1. "The UK is supposed to be a secular country" - no, the monarch is also the head of the Church of England, so I believe the UK is actually notionally Christian
2. "the state funded broadcaster is highly pro-christian" - you need evidence to say this: like all good science, just asserting something is not the right way to achieve things.
3. "I’ve yet to see or hear any Atheism biased broadcasting from the BBC." - Do you watch/listen to the whole of the BBC output? I'm afraid a single personal viewpoint is not actually a valid argument on Wikipedia.
4. "A good part of Radio 2 and 4 output seems to be pro Christian" - another assertion with nothing backing it
5. "pro Christian broadcasters like Simon Mayo seem to be given a free reign to promote their insanity on any channel" - I don't know whetherMayo is Christian or not, but you provide no evidence that he has been given "free reign" anywhere, and "insanity" is rather insulting.
6. "The implied logic that its OK to run down Harry Potter" - I don't see any logic, implied or otherwise, that includes Harry Potter and anyone "running down" the fictional character - have I missed something?
7. "Respect for all religions, a strong bias towards Christianity, don’t allow the Atheists any time at all is ingrained in the BBC charter." - is it? Where?
8. "Channel 4 seems to be..." - "seems to be" is not backed up by any evidence.

So, your arguments seem to boil down to an individual belief rather than any evidence - rather the opposite of a scientific approach :) Stephenb (Talk) 08:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC) (Agnostic)

I have to say I was puzzled to read this, Thought for the day regularly has non-Christian and humanist contributors, and while it dose show Songs of Praise this does not seem to be evidence of a systemic bias. The showing of Jerry Springer: The Opera despite protests would seem to be an apropreate counter balance. --Nate1481 10:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Actually, Thought for the Day is purely religious, and does not allow humanist contributors (though there have been many protests about this over the years, none have succeeded). Stephenb (Talk) 10:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Odd, I'm sure I heard one a week or two before I wrote that --Nate1481 15:56, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Regardless, the BBC is expected to reflect all sections of society: a large section of society do possess religious beliefs so should be catered for. As an atheist I do not see 5-10 minutes a week excessive to cater for such people. Plenty of freedom is given to people like Stephen Fry and Prof. Dawkins and a small army of others who regularly pour scorn on religious belief so the Beeb's remit to be balanced is not in danger as far as I can see on this point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.234.129 (talk) 19:56, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

The BBC has been anti Christian, in the form of Jerry Springer the Opera, also allowing blasphemy in many programmes. It however refrains from 'insulting' the Muslim religion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bettybutt (talk • contribs) 05:25, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

"The Beeb"?

The introduction states that "Domestic UK audiences often refer to the BBC as 'the Beeb'". I live in London, and I have never heard anyone call it that. Anyone else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dorkdork777 (talk • contribs) 21:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

quite common. see www.beeb.com or www.beeb.net, there is also BEEB. Pit-yacker (talk) 22:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Personally I don't ever recall hearing anyone use the term except employees of the BBC, who use it all the time. I'm not saying a search on Google wouldn't turn up lots of exceptions but if I don't believe it's used in conversation. The term does exist though so it should probably be in the article. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 02:10, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

It's not hugely common, but the term is definitely heard outside the BBC in conversation. Stephenb (Talk) 07:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

It's very common at the beeb and outside it. See also At the Beeb, Bowie at the Beeb Live at the Beeb. Jooler (talk) 10:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Personally I'm quite certain most of the people I know, including several who work for the BBC, would feel a little embarrassed about using the term in ordinary conversation. Of course if you Google a phrase it brings up results but that doesn't make it common, does it? It's undoubtedly a very well known term but I'd be interested to hear from someone who actually calls the BBC the Beeb. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 18:38, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

Me. I use it. But like any other similar word or phrase it's used now and again and in an context. I might refer to "a cup of tea" frequently during the day but now and again I might say "I'm dying for a cuppa!". Honestly I think it's more common than you may realise. Unlike most phrases you might Google "at the beeb" is pretty much only used in reference to the BBC and you get hits ranging from personal blogs of BBC Employees and TV watchers, to articles in The Sun, The Telegraph, Variety Magazine and Time Magazine. Jooler (talk) 06:32, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

I've heard many people call it the Beeb, though normally when they're mocking it. Either way, I have heard the term 80.7.186.169 (talk) 04:38, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Article title

Why is it "BBC" and not "British Broadcasting Corporation", as with USA, LSD etc.? It Is Me Here (talk) 12:05, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Because it's not the USA or LSD, it's the BBC. No-one calls it by its full name in common speech and writing. Same with other broadcasters/TV networks such as CBS. And yes, before any smart alec brings it up, the article on the American Broadcasting Company should be changed to 'ABC' because no-one uses its full name either. Strayan (talk) 14:00, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Charter

Following recent edits by AdamFourplay (in particular, moving a sentence but incorrectly so - supposed became suppose), I looked at the Charter. The article reads: The BBC is a quasi-autonomous public corporation as a public service broadcaster and is run by the BBC Trust; it is, per its charter, suppose to "be free from both political and commercial influence and answer only to its viewers and listeners". but I cannot find this wording anywhere within the charter or the referenced link. Have I missed something, or should we remove this apparently unsourced quote? Stephenb (Talk) 08:26, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Minor Updates Needed

There are a couple of updates needed to this article.

1. BBC Alba, the Scottish Gaelic service has now started so the tense of the verb is incorrect. It is available throughout the UK via satellite.

Done. Gammondog (talk) 10:41, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

2. The article suggests that BBC HD was a now ceased experiment. That is incorrect and it is being broadcast by satellite and cable. It has a selection of programmes from all BBC channels. Terrestrial broadcasting of BBC HD is dependent on the switch-off of the analog service in a region. This will release more bandwidth and enable BBC HD to be broadcast using DVB-T2.

Londonbear (talk) 09:10, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

The BBC World Ethos

I was trying to pin down the general collective philisophy of the BBC by categorising it. I wanted to insert as a sub section to the BBC section.

BBC World Ethos The philosophy of the liberal centre left developed by upper middle class city dwellers who are

anti - Realpolitik and support an illogical pseudo intellectual politically correct philosophy.

As a rider to this I wanted to insert: Beebman A stereotypical male who supports the BBC World Ethos. A descriptive title for someone who is; upper middle class, politically correct, liberal centre left, Sainsbuy's shopper, human rights supporter, academic, bureaucratic office worker, city dweller, pseudo intellectual, university graduate.

Its quite difficult in news articles to keep describing liberal left or liberal centre left people. I think Beebman fits the bill. Am I mad, bad or sad?

I am a wiki virgin, day 1. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MaximusAridimus (talk • contribs) 12:35, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Sounds very much to be a combination fo Original research flavored with a strong negative Point Of View, trying to generalise on an organistion that has differnat parts critiking its self is difficult even so. --Nate1481 15:50, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

I think you're all three of them mate to be honest. I had a look at your website...typical small-minded Daily Mail readers like you can rant all you like. Just keep it within yourselves. 86.141.219.85 (talk) 12:33, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Hutton Report

The article states that: "the subsequent Report raised questions about the BBC's journalistic standards and its impartiality". This is not accurate. The Report only reported into one thing: the "Dodgy Dossier" Intelligence Report and the subsequent BBC allegations of deliberate misrepresentation of that report's conclusions to the public by Tony Blair's Government. The conclusions that the BBC's reporting did not meet its Charter requirements of journalistic integrity was made only in respect to this matter. There was no implication of wider impartiality on behalf of the BBC. Such a conclusion would be outside the Terms Of Reference of the Hutton Report.

In fairness, the article should also point out that many people thought the Hutton Report's conclusions to be a Government whitewash. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.234.129 (talk) 20:13, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed that the objection above relates to the paragraph on the Hutton report in the History section of the article. The other mention of the Hutton Report in the News Coverage section is more accurate and contains references which the History section does not. This first paragraph really should be removed or substantially amended to remove the confusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.234.129 (talk) 01:14, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

BBC Bias

I feel the article is far to hollier than thou about the BBC. The left/liberal bias should be explored and explained. It is not impatial and has its own agenda. I could list things it is in favour of ie EU. The UN. The Democrates in the US. The Labour Party in the UK etc.

It is against. The republican party the Conservative party.any critisisam of climate change etc.

Every time I have tried to edit to bring in balance it is changed within moements back to as it was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.148.246 (talk) 15:38, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

That is because Wikipedia editors make at least some attempt to stick to publishing verifiable facts. Wikipedia is not intended as a soapbox for the political beliefs of individuals and their ideological fixations; left-wing or right-wing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.101.234.129 (talk) 01:01, 3 November 2008 (UTC)

{{editsemiprotected}} make United Kingdom in infobox a Wikilink

Done! Thanks! --DA Skunk - (talk) 16:22, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

In response to the topic starter, this issue has already been addressed throughout the article if you happen to look closely, as well as a whole article dedicated to Criticism of the BBC. What you stated is your opinion, and cannot be backed up by hard facts. Gammondog (talk) 00:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

TVCatchup

Should TVCatchup be added to "See Also" all of BBC Television channels are streamed live online on this website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.105.115.195 (talk) 13:41, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

There's no point, BBC TV will be available online at bbc.co.uk soon, plus it's not reliable and nothing to do with the BBC. -- [[ axg ⁞⁞ talk ]] 13:56, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

I just looked at this page and noticed the COUNTRY (on the right hand side) had been changed to "cunt cruncher" ... by the time I logged in to fix it the change had been made back to United Kingdom. Is there any way of stopping this??Lanzarotemaps (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Vandalism, though for specific articles, it would only get protected/semi-protected if there was a high level of vandalism, not for a single incident; if you feel strongly enough, you could join Wikipedia:Recent changes patrol. Stephenb (Talk) 10:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Please change "Cunt Cruncher" to "United Kingdom"!!!! (I'm not a user, just a reader).

Err, yes, that was done very soon afterwards... as the original poster said Stephenb (Talk) 11:51, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Largest broadcasting corporation

Picking up on the discussion above, which resulted in the agreement of changing the quote to "[BBC] described itself as the world's largest broadcasting corporation", I would like to know why a change did not happen? I think the article is biased because of this statement, since the source is taken from the company itself. It is not proven by any statistics and thus should thus not be used, in my opinion. --217.5.199.242 (talk) 14:06, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Ive changed it from the worlds largest to one of the worlds largest which is certainly the case, until further sources are found to prove it is the largest or what position it actually holds. Theres no real explanation on what the "largest" means, if its by employees, budget etc. BritishWatcher (talk) 14:22, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The BBC cannot see the difference between a criminal and a terrorist

The BBC was criticized for calling the "terrorists" who carried out the November 2008 Mumbai attacks as mere "gunman"[1][2]. Chanakyathegreat (talk) 14:38, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

Nothing new there, as I recall the BBC has avoided the use of "terrorism" and "terrorist" through 7/7, the Iraq and Afghanistan war, 9/11 and the IRA and loyalist campaigns in Northern Ireland. There was a section discussing this (and the BBC's justification) somewhere, however, it appears the section has been lost. Pit-yacker (talk) 19:59, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

The entry seems too much "fact based"?

Whilst we all love wikipedia's striving for objectivity and neutrality, I think the article about the BBC neglects it GREAT cultural achievement.

I am the only one concerned about this?

What other cultural organisation has its breadth and depth? It has made so many wonderful contributions to the culture of the C20th, and, most significantly, done largely without commercial input or support.

The BBC might have reputation outside the UK for being "high-bow", but it is not. For example:

1. BBC radio 1 has been at the center of popular music in the UK since its inception. It is simply fun.

2. Sport: the BBC has a great tradition of broadcasting ALL sport, not just commercially important sports. Even though programmes such as the long-running "Match of the Day" are about the most popular sport in the UK (and the World), the BBC will also support many other minor sports with some programmes. Example: darts!

3. The Open University. The BBC was the pioneer in bringing education to those who did not fit into the normal educational (O-level/A-level) system. Allowing "mature students" from ALL walks of life access to Higher Ed. Cagedcalcium (talk) 00:16, 5 January 2009 (UTC)