Talk:Israel

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Israel and the Occupied Territories Jerusalem as capital

Academically laughable

While there are many things in this article that I find laughable, one is the presentation of Jerusalem as Israel's capital. As is well known by those who are familiar with the the State of Israel, this presentation is, legally speaking, inaccurate. The United Nations has stated that the Jerusalem is not legally under Israel's jurisdiction and the world, besides a minority, overwhelmingly recognizes Tel Aviv as Israel's capital. This should be made blatantly clear in this article and should not be mentioned in a small footnote that is difficult to see. --SCL98 (talk) 18 Feb 2009 (UTC)

Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 (talk) 01:24, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

State terrorism

A paragraph should be included about the practice of state terrorism against the Palestinian population. that's something inherent to the Jewish state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.36.23.175 (talk) 22:24, 12 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia works with a neutral point of view. 68.160.14.60 (talk)

A neutral point of view does not preclude a discussion of state terrorism. Recall that the terrorist groups Lehi, Hagannah and Irgun are the very first terrorist groups to act in palestine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.68.162.194 (talk) 04:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Very arrogant not simply to take the point that you have a point of view. Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral. A line could mention "[prominent and authoritative source] has stated that Israel's method of warfare is illegal, describing it as "state terrorism"." If you have a good source and somewhere to put it you could try that. In all likelihood someone would then want to post opposing sources and the whole paragraph would eventually be deleted or incorporated into an article on criticisms of Israel and linked from this article. Hope that helps. --91.110.31.237 (talk) 13:08, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

"Since many oppose that point of view it is clearly such and thus not neutral" - there are many standing on the other side too, does that mean we can't include any information at all? I believe there are plenty of good sources of Israels actions being labeled as state terrorism, from alternative media in the US, and mainstream media from other countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 (talk) 10:21, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the person who raised this issue. Despite the claim of "neutrality," this article has a definite pro-Israel bias. It's as if terrorism doesn't exist here. Nor is there any respect for the Palestinian point of view. How about the Apartheid Wall? I find the responder extremely arrogant and off-putting. Disregarding the role Israel has played in causing world-wide terrorism and fundamentalist religious extremism is to ignore the elephant in the room. Finally, there is no such thing as a "casus bellum." That translates as "accident war." I think you might have been aiming for "causa belli." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.106.195.150 (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

State terrorism, including a discussion of referenced allegations of state terrorism by Israel is discused here: State Terrorism --ShumDavar (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Claiming that terrorism against the Palestinians is inherent to the Jewish state, is an inflammatory posting which should be deleted from this discussion page by the author. --ShumDavar (talk) 19:46, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that it should be removed at all, contributors have a right to raise issues, even if they are contentious, and the question of whether Israel has practiced state terrorism is moot one, Israel has certainly used terroristic methods in the past (and which state, in all honesty hasn't used such methods). There is no doubt that Israel has been consistent in its use of armed methods when dealing with the question of Palestinian former residents of its territory now living in close proximity to its borders. This has been such a feature that it might be right to open the question of whether or not the state has institutionalised 'terrorism' (or perhaps a better term would be 'armed repression' or 'armed suppression') as a means of dealing with Palestinian refugees from the territory which is now part of Israel proper. I would agree that 'terrorism' is an emotive term and perhaps one best avoided (but then again I would also with to avoid its use in regard to Hammas which I find to be a very unsavory group but would say that they have used 'terroristic methods' rather than say they are all terrorists - after all the Hagannah used similar methods to Hamas, excluding suicide bombings, and the Irgun used mass-murder and ethnic cleansing as weapons of war - and its members received a campaign ribbon from the IDF in later years despite being terrorists who tried to import arms and bring off a possible coup d'etat against Israel).EoinBach (talk) 02:51, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Israel's efforts at peace with the Palestinians

In the intro, the paragraph summarising Israel's violent birth ends with, "and efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the Palestinians." This is plainly not the case and I intend to edit the sentence. Menswear (talk) 18:00, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Do edit, it was never the case that Israel wanted peace. Agreed, this article also does not mention all sides of the Zionist state, such as examples of what the state has been doing to oppress the Palestinian people such as bulldozing homes, and racism of its people towards the people who were conquered by them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Naztorator (talk • contribs) 05:00, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Alright people, wikipedia is not a battleground for you to bash Israel, do it on your blogs and opinion websites. The fact is that efforts are being made to reach a permanent accord with the refugees from Jordan (a.k.a. Palestinians). We all have differing opinions, but it is important that the articles maintain a neutral point of view regardless of our emotions. Any edits made to this article that do not adhere to this policy will be reverted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 19:16, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is possible to have a negative view of Israel which is still neutral given the facts show the negative view - Similar to articles on Nazi Germany don't paint a positive view. I think if violence directed at Israel is mentioned, then Israels "break-the-bones" strategies, partitioning of the historical lands of Palestine, and holding the Palestinians under occupation rate a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.134.252.146 (talk) 10:10, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

This sort of an in-depth description of a conflict should go in the article dedicated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. As for the claim that efforts are not being made to reach a peace accord: if you can find a reliable and authoritative source to establish such claims i think that you should indeed edit the paragraph. Gregie156 (talk) 20:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Capital city

The capital city of Israel is Tel Aviv, not Jerusalem. If Jerusalem was ever made capital city that would cause war as the three main religions would have trouble deciding on a chief of state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.41.81 (talk) 03:53, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

The capital is Jerusalem. There is no reliable source that states the capital of Israel Tel Aviv. Please post your source if you feel this is incorrect. Otherwise, please stop trying to conform wikipedia to your biased point of view. This article could becoming locked from vandalism if everyone cannot be neutral. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 19:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Erm.....No. The UN and International law does not recognize Jerusalem to be the capital of Israel. Please refer to the 1997 UN report titled "The Status of Jerusalem" which calls it essentially an international city. Please stop with your biased POV.... And acknowledge International law on the issue.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.38.41.91 (talk) 18:49, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Thankfully, international law doesn't control Israel. The capital is Jerusalem whether you like it or not. This is not a biased POV, it is clear by looking at any map that exists. There is no need to acknowledge international law since Israel declared it as its capital when they became independent. End of discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 21:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree. A capital city of a country is by definition, the city where the country's government is based, and the Israeli government is based in Jerusalem. However, the reason why the United Nations and most countries don't see Jerusalem as Israel's capital is because it is being ilegally occupied by Israel. Jerusalem should really belong to Palestine because Israel is breaking international law. So Tel Aviv should be the capital of Israel, but it isn't. Jprulestheworld (talk) 11:45, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 (talk) 19:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

FYI most of Jerusalem is not considered to be "occupied territory", that is to say it was not conquered in 1967. The Israeli government and ministries are located in West-Jerusalem which has been part of Israel since independence.

Telaviv1 (talk) 12:18, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

As this topic keeps coming up, probably a link to a summary of the main arguments should be left at the top of the talk page. Squash Racket (talk) 18:53, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The topic does not keep coming up, it is settled and then rehashed by talk members wishing to change the article's content. Anyone who disagrees with the issue need only to look up the sources cited in the article. Instead, they add opinion to lengthen the talk page and create controversy because of their emotions and feelings toward this country. Ignore the arguments against Jerusalem, it is the capital of Israel no matter how many times they cover their ears or close their eyes... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 14:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you, Goalie1998 (talk) 17:33, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I do not know how much you know about Israel but you have a mistake: Jerusalem is not all occupied. Where I live, and where the Knneset is and many other places in jerusalem are in thh non-occupied area. just for your knowledge. Meitar --62.219.228.172 (talk) 13:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Druze In Israel

The part "Religion in Israel" about the groups in the Arab minority : Druze DO NOT consider themselves Arab (source 36, article "Druze" - Identity Repertoires among Arabs in Israel, Muhammad Amara and Izhak Schnell; Journal of Ethnic and Migration Studies, Vol. 30, 2004) and for some it's even insulting. Please change it, thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.250.111.251 (talk) 21:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a lot of information for this Country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.2.235.98 (talk) 16:53, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Surely there should be more mention of the Palestinian conflict in the lead?

The only mention,, virtually, is "efforts for a long-lasting peace with the Palestinians have so far been unsuccessful." A bit of an understatement as well.

The issue defines Israel in the international community. In fact, in English speaking countries (which this encyclopedia caters for) this is the main point of interest about the country of Israel.Jandrews23jandrews23 (talk) 21:13, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

And while we're at it, let's mention Natalie Portman and felafel in the lede, since they're also a main point of interest about the country. Boring details like location and population can wait.Jalapenos do exist (talk) 20:57, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I'm extremely sorry, but as far as I know Jerusalem is NOT the capital of Israel, although it is the largest and culturally the most significant city of the country. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 (talk) 19:47, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Then you do not know the definition of capital. The capital is the country's seat of government. Israel designated Jerusalem as capital, and its parliament, government offices, supreme court, etc. are located there. Thus, it is the capital. okedem (talk) 20:04, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

It is not a capital. Officially the capital of Israel is Tel Aviv. The BBCV made the same mistake in 2007 and then had to apologize. I think you should reconsider your decision. If Tel Aviv does not match your definition, it is not the Israeli state that is at fault. So when it has designated Jerusalem? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.250.225.205 (talk) 14:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Please see the archives on this subject; it has been discussed ad infinitum. The editors have decided to leave Jerusalem as the listed capital in the article with a footnote explaining why. Thank you Goalie1998 (talk) 05:47, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Biassed through omission

Since there are heavy emotions involved it may be hard to remain neutral. But surely it is possible to not completely ignore all the bloodshed and report this in a matter of fact way. This is probably a bit awkward, but I agree that Wikipedia does well to remain neutral; There are enough non-neutral sources around. You don't need to discuss whether the bloodshed (either side of the conflict) is justified (I believe it neither is), but you can still describe the vicious cycle of retaliatory action. It requires insight and leadership to overcome this cycle of violence. It also requires the world to be well informed, since we cannot wait for the 'chosen leaders' to choose to transcend from their long history violence at their own pace.

Right now I feel that this article is very non-neutral by omitting important information on the actions of Israel. Regardless of what people may think of them, it would be 'neutralizing' to at least list them. I'd say both sides have to agree with the facts. Whenever I hear of body counts of both sides, I hear vastly larger numbers of Palistinians than from Israel. This objective information helps me form my own opinion about whether there is anything at all legitimate about what's happening in this conflict. Why am I not seeing any of this information? If you feel that it would spur heavy debates, don't think that this is because it's not neutral. Being confronted with facts historically has caused enough riots, bans, etc. That doesn't mean that we should be ignorant! (slightly off-topic) If so we should still consider the world as being flat. Okay, Friedman tells us this is not far from the truth anymore. (/off-topic)

-- EdB —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.147.200.8 (talk) 00:16, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Robot Reverts?

It seems that there is some automatic robot that reverts this article to the official Zionist line within seconds of any edits. Funny. Fourtildas (talk) 06:27, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

I have a suggestion to everyone who edits this article - think how you'd write an article about France, Greece, Turkey, or Tunisia. The article about Israel is not exceptional, it should have the same format and the same wording. DrorK (talk) 08:50, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

People keep mentioning the "official Zionist line". I'm curious: what is it? Is there a website where it's published and updated? What are it's main contentions? Can we avoid it by sticking to the format used by Encyclopedia Britannica, World Book Encyclopedia and so on, or are they also mouthpieces for the official Zionist line? Jalapenos do exist (talk) 09:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Disputed Territories

The section of the article currently titled Occupied Territories is a biased POV. Edits should be made to change it back to the original titled Disputed Territories or include both labels. The west bank, golan heights, and Jerusalem have been annexed by Israel and their status under international law conflicts with Israel's position. The Gaza strip, as of the 2005 disengagement is separately disputed because of a continuing blockade and the current conflict with Hamas. Comments or suggestive remarks only please, plenty of other sections to continue pro and anti-Israel banter thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.22.13 (talk) 14:31, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

I actually agree with you there. The term "occupied territories" has been bugging me for a while now, but I'd like to see if we can get a few more opinions on this before any changes are made. Tad Lincoln (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

The West Bank was never annexed by Israel save the territory known as East Jerusalem (which includes more than the eastern quarters of Jerusalem). Actually if we want to be very precise, Israel didn't officially annex East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, but enacted its "Law, jurisdiction and administration" on these territories. In practice, it is more or less equivalent to annexation. The West Bank, or at least those parts of it which are under direct Israeli control, can be said to be occupied, but East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights are not under occupation administration. They are occupied only in the sense that Syria or the Palestinian Authority believe they should return to their control. DrorK (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2009 (UTC)