Talk:Bigfoot

Picture template

I have replaced the template with just a captioned image because the template presents uncorrectable NPOV problems. In a nutshell, the template denotes Bigfoot, without qualification, as a creature. In addition to saying it outright, it also denotes it as having a habitat. The mainstream view is that it is not a creature, but rather a myth or rumor, which clearly do not have 'habitats'. Further, the template titles the image "bigfoot", while the mainstream view is that there is no such thing and that there can therefore be no image of it. Opening the article with a prominent unqualified fringe view is unacceptable. Perhaps a more appropriate template could be chosen, but as I said, for now I have simply placed the template with a captioned image. Locke9k (talk) 20:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm not even sure why that template exists in the first place. DreamGuy (talk) 21:11, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The template may have some validity to it although I'm not sure yet whether or not it is worth having. I've expressed my concerns for some fields on Template talk:Infobox paranormal creature —Fiziker ^t c 21:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

I have added my concerns there. The problem is that template is also sometimes used in places where its probably ok, so for now it seems like all we can do is avoid using it in articles where it presents NPOV problems. Locke9k (talk) 21:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

The mainstream view is that Bigfoot is not a creature, then again the article is about Bigfoot. We should include the possibility of it being real. Significant published viewpoints need to be made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular views. This was indeed a popular film of what may be a real Bigfoot and is perfect for the article. It doesn't violate any copyright infringement laws. If someone denotes the picture as real or fake it will be a violation of WP:UNDUE and WP:NPOV.--Simpsoncan (talk) 19:08, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I adjusted the wording because alleged is asserted to be true or exist. Possible seems to be more fitting because it is being of something that may or may not be true--Simpsoncan (talk) 23:07, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The use of alleged is better than possible. Anything can be possible, so this doesn't really provide information. The important thing is that some believers in Bigfoot say that this is a Bigfoot. Possible does not convey this. —Fiziker ^t c 19:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

"Possible" also is an opinion. Most people says it's not possible to be a photo of Bigfoot. Alleged is factual. DreamGuy (talk) 13:57, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe so I'll change it back.--Simpsoncan (talk) 22:13, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, that hasn't helped much, but that's not the most important point. The current caption --"Frame 352, alleged image of Bigfoot, from the Patterson-Gimlin film" -- gives only one side of the story, favouring the existence of Biggie, naturally. What would happen if I changed the caption to say "Frame 352 of the Patterson-Gimlin film showing Bob Heironimus wearing an ape suit." I can hear the screams from here, and yet it is referenced and illustrates a point made in the article text. Comment? Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it's good to show what the classic Bigfoot look is. You can't get much better than the one from Patterson-Gimlin film (there aren't many other Bigfoot pictures that we can us: search on Wikipedia and flicker has some creative commons stuff but not much). I don't think it's necessary to discussion the origins of the film in the caption as it's talked about in both this article and the film's article. Perhaps it should say something more along the lines of how this is the icon picture of Bigfoot rather an alleged or possible photograph. —Fiziker ^t c 02:34, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

The iconic look isn't as important as what the caption says about it. You say a couple of pars earlier that "The important thing is that some believers in Bigfoot say that this is a Bigfoot (and the caption possibly) does not convey this". You're advocating POV. Blatantly. It is no less important that some people believe the image shows Bob Heironimus in an ape suit. If you want to give POV, then it has to give both. I asked a question which you didn't answer -- "What would happen if I changed the caption to say "Frame 352 of the Patterson-Gimlin film showing Bob Heironimus wearing an ape suit."'. Well?Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 02:52, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Now if we can work together to maintain a neutral balance between Fiziker and Kaiwhakahaere we will have the perfect article.--Simpsoncan (talk) 01:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

It would be POV if we gave the impression that this is actually a picture of Bigfoot. However, we want a picture that shows what Bigfoot is supposed to be like. It seems like you would prefer to have a drawing of a Bigfoot so it's clear that the picture is in no way real. I think that might work but as is this, I believe, shows the classic Bigfoot look. I believe you are misinterpreting statement (although, it is not all that clear given the direction this discussion has gone in). I was arguing that the word alleged is better than possible because the picture is not about whether or not that is Bigfoot but rather that that is what Bigfoot is supposed to look like. Re your caption: what purpose would that surve in this article? —Fiziker ^t c 01:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What purpose would that caption serve? Being accurate, it would faithfully illustrate referenced info in the text of the article. But. Did you not notice something? I did not advocate using that caption. I gave it as an example of "Heironimus in an ape suit" being no less pertinent or important than "believers in Bigfoot say that this is a Bigfoot. In fact they probably carry equal weight but I think it is enough for the caption to simply say it is a frame from the film. What's wrong with that? Simsoncan was right when he commented "if we can work together to maintain a neutral balance between Fiziker and Kaiwhakahaere we will have the perfect article". To be neutral, the caption either presents both points, or neither. Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 03:42, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

What caption do you suggest? —Fiziker ^t c 03:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Check the article. I just made a change. Note the edit summary which says "Make caption neutral, and remove unsourced pov. Note that it is the second par that has a reference. The first par has none". Kaiwhakahaere (talk) 06:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with your edit and have reverted it. If anything, your edit advances a POV, and one contrary to the one you thought the wording you changed was somehow promoting. And your claim about "both points, or neither" isn't really relevant. Saying something was alleged to be Bigfoot doesn't advance either side. Just saying it's a frame of a film doesn't give any context about what the frame is alleged to show. Your edit also removed a mention of cryptozoology and that science doesn't support the claims, which push a POV by omission. The claims are documented in the article. DreamGuy (talk) 13:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

A good caption should clearly state what an image is even if a reader has not read an article (specifically, if someone scans an article and sees a picture, he or she should be able to determine what it is about). This is reflected in WP:CAP where it says that one criterion for a good caption is that it "establishes the picture's relevance to the article." I think the caption could be reworded to make the importance more clear (I'll try to present something when I finish some other work), but to remove the importance is ridiculous. —Fiziker ^t c 16:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Personally I don't really see any major POV issue with the present caption. "Alleged image of bigfoot" seems to me to capture the status of the image. I think that Fiziker's argument is sound; the caption should establish the relevance of the image in an NPOV way. The one significant improvement I could think of right now would be to change the wording to make the attribution of the claim more clear, so that readers know who is alleging that this is bigfoot. I will see if I can come up with a way to do that. Locke9k (talk) 16:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that the new revision, which reads "Frame 352 from the Patterson-Gimlin film, alleged by Roger Patterson and Robert Gimlin to depict Bigfoot," improves the article at all. First, there are more people who allege that this is a Bigfoot than Patterson and Gimlin. The reason why this is important is because it is alleged by many Bigfoot believers, not just the two who captured the image. Second, isn't the caption a bit redundant to refer to the pair twice? —Fiziker ^t c 17:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Scientific community section

This section presently has major POV issues, and I have tagged it as such. Despite the fact that that mainstream scientific view is that megafauna cryptids such as bigfoot probably do not exist, the majority of this section covers a small fraction of sympathetic fringe perspectives that are sympathetic to the possibility of its existence. The section gives entirely undue weight to these fringe perspectives. Whats worse, some of these perspectives are referenced from cryptozoological and fringe sources! There is no way that fringe sources are reliable sources for documenting the view of the mainstream scientific community. Finally, the fact that the mainstream scientific view is presently relegated to a separate section at the bottom of the page is not idea. The mainstream view should be clear from the beginning and should be incorporated wherever possible throughout the article to lend balance and perspective to fringe claims. I will try to work on this over time, but it may be a big project, so help would be appreciated. Locke9k (talk) 17:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course the problem here is that there isn't much to say on the scientific consensus. The view of the vast majority of scientists can be summed up simply and in a few sentences while the few scientists who do think Bigfoot is real have idiosyncrasies. Therefore the problem with undue weight is inherent in the section as is. One way that this can be addressed is including the arguments that scientists make against Bigfoot but I have found finding those sources hard to come by due to scientists prefering to talk about real science rather than refute pseudoscience. —Fiziker ^t c 17:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

The other way is to remove content that gives fringe views undue weight, even if it is verifiable. Locke9k (talk) 17:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

While some might be removed, it is valid to mention that some cases of scientists getting an interest in Bigfoot. For example, what Goodall said is pretty much just rampant speculation—it doesn't really matter to the issue of Bigfoot either way. However, there have been people like Meldrum who are scientists when it comes to other topics and have tried, at least nominally, to bring scientific rigor to their interest in Bigfoot (of course the success of this should be accurately represented). This is a good topic to mention as it has relevance to the issue of Bigfoot. The thing that stand out in my mind is that including such information would also be helpful for people looking for material relating to the demarkation problem. —Fiziker ^t c 17:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I would suport removing Goodall, as that clearly is just there as the result of a desperate grab to try to find someone who sounds reliable to say something positive, even if it's not all the relevant. DreamGuy (talk) 18:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I would agree with you in general, but note that it was a hell of a lot worse for many, many, many years. Some work still needs to be done, sure, but if you'd seen it the way it was before... DreamGuy (talk) 18:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

In general the entire article is written from unproven assertions. Back in 2005 this article was a mess but I think it’s on its way to a fairly decent one. If we are to remain as well respected editors it’s important that we must show all the various viewpoints. We need to make sure they are made accessible to the reader, not just the most popular or scientific views. Regardless of what we believe we can’t forget that with folklore stories it’s extremely important to let the facts speak for themselves.--Simpsoncan (talk) 20:06, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

You have said things to the effect of all viewpoints must be present "not just the most popular or scientific views" multiple times. Please note that there is a difference between a polular view and scientific consensus. That difference is the reason why WP:PSCI exists. It is why we can—and should—state what the fringe views are, but we should make it clear that it is opposed to the science. —Fiziker ^t c 21:24, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

See WP:UNDUE for why we don't "show all the various viewpoints" and specifically why we don't give minority views as much weight as "the most popular or scientific views". DreamGuy (talk) 13:18, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, I have done some major cleanup on this section. I haven't removed any references or general facts, but I have cut out a lot of the excessive detail in order to keep the same information while reducing the undue weight issue of giving too much space to a fringe view. I'll probably work on it some more later, but hopefully this is a start. Locke9k (talk) 21:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Locke9k has done some major cleanup on this section cutting a lot of excessive detail reducing the undue weight issue. What other suggestions are there for future editing in this section?--Timpicerilo (talk) 13:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Map

Hi there just a small thing, that map seems to show sightings in the US and Canada, not just US. Could someone coreect this if i'm correct. THanks Jambo-numba1 (talk) 17:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)