Talk:United States

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Current population (est.): 338,357,000 as of September 4, 2024. The USCB projects 439 million by 2050

change name

i suggest that the name of the article is changed to the united states OF AMERICA, because there are many united states in the world, germany for example is made up of many states as is india. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.225.75.90 (talk) 18:16, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

But no other nation currently existing is called the "united" states. --Golbez (talk) 21:52, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Mexico's official name is literally translated as the Mexican United States or the United States of Mexico. But it seems most translate it non-literally, as the United Mexican States. Not that it matters either way... when people say United States and leave it at that, particularly in English, they are referring to the USA probably 99.99% of the time. Ben Lunsford (talk) 02:08, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Right, the official English name appears to be United Mexican States. And recall that, in Mexico, when they refer to "Estados Unidos", they aren't referring to Mexico. --Golbez (talk) 03:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Please see FAQ. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 02:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I have yet to see "United States" refer to another country without it being mentioned first--Jakezing (Your King (talk) 03:11, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

There is nothing in the FAQ that provides a compelling case for using the current abbreviated title. The title just looks like a mistake made by a bunch of amateurs, which is indeed what it is. Greg Grahame (talk) 17:57, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

It isn't necessary to change the name, because most/all of the articles on countries refer to themselves in that way. Recalling a previous point made awhile ago, the article on Germany is called Germany, not the Federal Republic of Germany... ojay123 (talk) 13:09, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Your comparison is invalid. The article is called Germany, not "Federal Republic". "United States" is used as a convenient abbreviation, but there is absolutely no need to abbreviate the title of this article. For that matter, "America" is also used as a convenient abbreviation of the full name. This article title is simply incorrect. I would be flabbergasted if any reputable published encyclopedia headlines its article on this topic, "United States". Greg Grahame (talk) 17:52, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Almost all enclopedias, and other written sources, use 'United States'. See the Encyclopædia Britannica's usage here. YeshuaDavid (talk) 17:04, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Change I made to "Culture" section

I deleted about 3-4 sentences that talked about subjects relating to same-sex marriage. Reason is because there is only one sentence devoted to Women rights when the history and progress of women rights is far greater than that of same-sex marriage. Same with traditional American food and some others. This is an article about the United States of America, not the progress of same-sex marriage. Therefore, "recording" cases won [relating to same-sex marriage] in the article is not appropriate.

Just as a side note: I do not have anything against same-sex marriage or homosexuals.--Rmhs15 (talk) 02:15, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. This is currently one of the most important issues in American society today, and certainly significant enough as both a political and cultural matter to warrant the coverage it has received. Of course, the history of women's rights is crucial, but this is not, in the end, a history article. The focus here is on what the United States is today, and what makes it distinctive. The issue of same-sex marriage is highly relevant in that context. The passage is restored.—DCGeist (talk) 06:38, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

is the debate about same sex marriage in the US markedly different from elswere?[[Slatersteven (talk) 17:17, 9 May 2009 (UTC)]]

There are much more important, current, issues than same-sex marriage. While same-sex marriage is a recognized "issue" in the media and the political world, it isn't the most important or amongst. For example, immigration (illegal and legal). There has been talk of illegal immigration issues for a while and it has received much more political and media attention than same-sex marriage. Another one is the current economy. Yet, I don't see a paragraph devoted to these two. A couple others (in the past) have been political corruption and police corruption. --Rmhs15 (talk) 18:46, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

We could certainly stand to have a sentence or two on the issue of immigration--though where, exactly, do you think that would fit in best? As for the economy, that's a perennial issue--a matter of debate in virtually all countries at all times. If the focus on the direction of the country's economic priorities is unusually intense at the moment, the debate is also very diffuse. We can afford to give it some time before coming up with an appropriately summary way of addressing it.—DCGeist (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem of balancing federalism against the rights of the states is barely mentioned, and that's been and has remained controversial for the entire duration of the existence of the country (for example, same-sex marriage is at many levels a federalism issue because of full faith and credit). The issues with same-sex marriage are a modern phenomenon, and could probably be lumped in with the larger questions of civil rights. My question is: what do the following lines add to an overview article?

Between 2003 and 2009, the supreme courts of Massachusetts, California, Connecticut, and Iowa ruled those states' bans on same-sex marriage unconstitutional. The California ruling was superseded by a state constitutional amendment, approved by voters in November 2008, that defines marriage as between a man and woman; the legality of the amendment is currently being contested in court. Between 2004 and 2008, voters in 13 other states approved similar constitutional bans on same-sex marriage. In 2009, Vermont became the first state to permit same-sex marriage through legislative action.

Again, this article is being crushed by minor details and specifics that are best left to the subarticles. Saying that it is currently controversial and linking an appropriate subarticle should be sufficient. There's a reason this article is massively bloated: there is ridiculous resistance to the removal of these minor details. SDY (talk) 05:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I have no problem with recasting the passage in summary fashion. Now, just so we're clear on what you're talking about, could you please cite a recent example of "ridiculous resistance"?—DCGeist (talk) 13:25, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Every time someone proposes removing or trimming a section such as this one, it is immediately reverted and defended. This article would never qualify as a FA solely because of the problems with summary style, and removal of details, especially transient information about current events, should be encouraged rather than discouraged. SDY (talk) 14:20, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

This is not a "transient event"; it has been a major issue in American culture for much of the decade. This is easily confirmed by looking at newspaper coverage or the political history you proposed to excise wholesale. We don't need to be characterizing good-faith, temperate disagreements as "ridiculous." DocKino (talk) 14:32, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I frankly think that we should be wary of WP:UNDUE, simply because issues that have been controversial for a lot longer are given equal or lesser coverage. Like many articles on wikipedia, there's a question of WP:RECENT- is the article about "current status" or "overall history"? I'd prefer to focus on overall history for the overview. Leading on to the expected revert, what benefit does the reader get from having details on the contention? There really isn't a need to persuade the reader it's contentious, it's simply a fact that can be stated. SDY (talk) 14:55, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

It's agreed that the level of detail that was there was unnecessary. The detail retained in the middle ground version I aimed at demonstrates that it's not just a matter of debate, but a practical matter at the state level and, by implication, in people's daily lives. In particular and in addition, the Vermont law appears to be recognized as representing a significant historical shift.

There's something else to consider. There's an article on Star Trek: The Motion Picture up for FA right now--it's about 14,000 words long and it will almost certainly be approved. A lot of work has gone into trimming this United States article over the past year and warding off new bloat--we've held the line at about 11,000 words. That's long for sure, but evidence suggests that length would not be a problem at FAC at this point.DocKino (talk) 14:56, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Because it’s been around a decade does not stop it being transient, it just makes it current. In order for its inclusion it must be significantly representative of the US, this is not (see below), the debate exists in most western democracies. But at least it is now clear that we actually seem to be talking about state rights, and the relationship between state and federal governments, if this is the case, then culture does not seem the right section.[[Slatersteven (talk) 15:01, 11 May 2009 (UTC)]]

Really? Same-sex marriage is anywhere near as contentious an issue in "most western democracies" as it is in the United States? Please provide some evidence in support of that claim.DocKino (talk) 15:03, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

And no, we're not talking about the relationship between state and federal governments. The issue has not been federalized at this point. The state activity points up the significant cultural differences between states.DocKino (talk) 15:10, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with SDY on this. It just seems too specific for an overview article and WP:UNDUE is floating in my mind. For example, the civil rights movement gets a total of two sentences; the moon landing gets one; the Bill of Rights gets three mentions (two of which are the same; one being in the lead, the other in the article itself). ←These are the way concepts should be covered in an overview article. Many times, reasons for additions to this page are rebutted with the fact that the page size is getting too large; this would be an easy way to trim some fat. ~ ωαdεstεr16_«talk^stalk» 15:34, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, under my edit we go from 104 words on the topic to 59. I don't see anything left there that could be called "fat". And its coverage is now hardly WP:UNDUE compared to the coverage given other significant contemporary issues such as abortion (64 words), capital punishment (97 words), and health care coverage (108 words). SDY's suggestion that the contentiousness of an issue is "simply a fact that can be stated" without description or contextualization is not encyclopedic; it's equivalent to replacing our literature summary with "Many Americans have written books, some highly regarded".DocKino (talk) 19:58, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

Except that I would include a link to American Literature, probably as a piped link, and people who wanted more information could follow through. For the overview, simply stating that it is true (and citing if likely to be challenged) is sufficient. Details belong in the more focused articles. Vermont's ruling is very important for same sex marriage, but I find it very hard to believe that it was, is, or will be important in the history of the United States. That there have been legal wranglings and checks and balances over the judicial opinions that allowed it in other states is especially irrelevant since the status quo is no change. SDY (talk) 22:44, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

And that would be a terrible edit. Simply having "Same-sex marriage is a contentious issue" as a completely noncontextualized claim is as silly as having "Abortion is a contentious issue" or "Health care coverage is a contentious issue" without context. That's not summary style, that's a string of banalities.

And your claim that "the status quo is no change" is simply not true. The status quo has changed and is changing significantly. Same-sex marriage has now been legalized in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont, and Maine. Within a few months, it is likely to be legal in New Hampshire as well. It was briefly legal in the country's largest state, California, and may be again. It is regarded as an issue that bears significantly on President Obama's choice of nominee for the Supreme Court.DocKino (talk) 23:27, 11 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL aside, the status quo (no same-sex marriage) was maintained in California, so going into detail on the wrangling on the broad brush of this article. Perhaps limiting the comments to "Same-sex marriage is a contentious issue and is currently legal in one state but constitutionally banned in others." would be reasonable. SDY (talk) 01:13, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

(1) You have raised WP:CRYSTAL inappropriately. There is zero crystal-balling on this issue in the article text. You've made the highly arguable claim that this a "transient" issue and the blatantly false claim that "the status quo is no change", and I have presented a variety of evidence to refute those claims.

(2) You seem to be having a very odd problem retaining information today. Same-sex marriage has now been legalized in five states. Perhaps if I name them once again, you'll be able to retain them: Massachusetts, Connecticut, Iowa, Vermont, and Maine. In addition, the legislature of a sixth state, New Hampshire, just passed a bill legalizing the practice; it awaits action by the state's governor.

(3) We're at a perfectly reasonable length now: 59 words as compared to 64 for abortion, 97 for capital punishment, and 108 for health care coverage.DocKino (talk) 01:53, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

If it means that much to you, have it your way. I have no interest in continuing this increasingly hostile conversation. SDY (talk) 02:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

I sense some bias coming from those who support the section as it is. Allow me to explain (will be long). Most of us have been brought up in an open-minded fashion and one that is commonly accepting of other lifestyles. Now lets apply this to our current dispute. Those with the say or the power (well, they are equal to us in power/say but they tend to be the ones reverting and arguing) seem keen to covering same-sex marriage issues as much as they can even though it is not that big of a deal compared to past and current issues. To put this into simple terms, if you go outside and ask people what they think of same-sex marriage, you have to be realistic and accept that the majority of American citizens oppose it. Yes, there will be some who will lean towards "they love each other, and that's what matters". Like it or ignore it, that is simply the way it is. With that being said, I will move on to my next point. Same-sex isn't that big of a deal to "ticket" almost a paragraph. Yes, same-sex marriage has been discussed in Congress. Yes, homosexuals/same-sex marriage exists and we all know of it. Yes, same-sex marriage & homosexuality has received an amount of media and political attention. Yes, there have been protest pro-homosexuality/same-sex marriage. To finish, same-sex marriage is something that is recognized. No-one is denying that. Another one of my major points is that homosexuality has existed ever since Man first walked the Earth. It has always being on the "peoples" mind. Back in the Middle Ages (when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as official religion), the Church (and therefore the people) declared being a homosexual a sin and something that should be looked down upon. This means, that it has always been controversial both in the media (newspapers & word-of-mouth back then) and the political world.

After all of this, it does NOT warrant an almost whole paragraph in this very popular article (after all, it is about the US of A!). Finally, reduce it to a simply sentence to "Same-sex marriage is currently a controversial issue" or something that is 1 sentence and short.--Rmhs15 (talk) 02:46, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

As DocKino points out, he cut the coverage of the issue by over 40%. Fifty-nine words hardly constitutes an inordinate amount of coverage, especially compared to other contemporary issues that have received widespread media attention. In fact, the coverage is arguably unduly brief, as there has been substantially more political activity involving the issue in recent years than has involved abortion or capital punishment. Finally, as for bias, I detect none in the language present in the article, which is what matters. Shall we read bias into your insistence that coverage be cut even more drastically? Let's not take the conversation any further in that direction, okay?—DCGeist (talk) 03:31, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Way to ignore everything I previously said... Yea, really not biased on your side.--Rmhs15 (talk) 02:18, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

That not every council in the UK was accepting Civil partnerships within the last decade. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4493094.stm. moreover this http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/samesexmarriage/index.shtml shows that there is a debate in the UK. Sadley i will have to look for other examples at another time but (No sources as yet) New New Zealand's Marriage Act 1955 still only recognizes marriage rights for opposite-sex couples, Israel's High Court of Justice ruled to recognize same-sex marriages performed in other countries, although it is still illegal to perform them within the country, In 2006, a 30 member parliamentary commission of the French National Assembly published a 453 page Report on the Family and the rights of Children, which rejected same-sex marriage. The Canadian Parliament approved same-sex marriage by defining marriage as “between two people” in June, 2005. The Conservative Government introduced a bill proposing to repeal same-sex marriage in Canada in 2006, but it failed at its first reading in 2006, hence same sex marriage continues to be recognized throughout the nation, but there is oppoisition to it (or in other words a debate). At the federal level, Australia bans recognition of same-sex marriage, but the current Australian Labor Party government favors synchronized state and territory registered partnership legislation (as in Tasmania and Victoria). The Australian Capital Territory has civil unions with no official ceremonies, thus a situation not u8nlike that in the US.[[Slatersteven (talk) 15:22, 11 May 2009 (UTC)]]

This issue merits one sentence at most, probably none. The headlines of the day should have very little influence on the content of a general encyclopedia article. Greg Grahame (talk) 17:58, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Jack's photo

Jack Koruac's photo is odd. Too obscure a person to be given such weight in this article. User F203 (talk) 19:06, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

He's representative of what is arguably the most important well-defined movement in American literary history. And he's hardly obscure.—DCGeist (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

I sort of agree with F203. Kerouac, while certainly a literary giant, is just not as well-known or as widely read as O'Neill, Miller, Hemingway, or Steinbeck. --Coolcaesar (talk) 07:37, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

That might be true, but none of those writers is representative of a well-defined American literary movement.—DCGeist (talk) 20:49, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Religion

The section on religion needs a consistency check-up in respect to a comparison it makes. It notes the percentage of atheists to be 16% and compares it to a supposed 44% in the UK. The source given for the latter value actually says 31-44% in the quote it uses as a base, if one reads carefully, with 44% as an estimated maximum, and just for Britain, not the UK in general. Also, the values on the source (adherents.com) don't seem very compatible with the 16% used for the US in the article. Adherents.com gives the US less than 10% atheists or agnostics in all sources used. Other WP articles, such as United Kingdom or Religion in the United Kingdom use lower values for the UK, from other sources, like 20% and 15% (the latter from an official census), which would bring the number of nonbelievers much closer to the Pew Forum survey for the US, making the statement of significantly less than in other postindustrial countries such as the United Kingdom inadequate. And, if we really want to consider the values in adherents.com, the US ends up with less, not more, than the (~12%) worldwide rate, while that does make the significantly less than sentence more meaningful. It might be wise to remove the comparisons to the UK and the world in general, and leave it to readers to check such things by comparing other parallel articles (of other countries) or or by reading articles about religious adherence in general. Otherwise, clearer or consistent info is required. Who is like God? (talk) 13:45, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

There's no doubt that the UK is a far less religious country than the United States. I suspect that in the UK, where it is so easy to ignore religion entirely, people indifferent to religion are less likely to go to the trouble of asserting themselves as atheists than people of equal indifference in the U.S. where religion is an inescapable part of society, forcing everyone to take a stance. Greg Grahame (talk) 18:03, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, although it could also be that the US simply has more vocal and radical religious groups rather than that many more religious people demographically. Their decentralized take on religion seems to encourage religious activism. My main point is that the data and references may be somewhat confusing. Who is like God? (talk) 11:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

Britain is the U.K., do you mean England? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rainpat (talk • contribs)

If you check the page it says United Kingdom: Britain instead of just United Kingdom, and elsewhere the chart uses United Kingdom: Scotland. Maybe in that instance it refers only to mainland Great Britain (excluding Northern Ireland and other UK territories). Who is like God? (talk) 11:17, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

That is definitely what they mean. Politically when using the term Britain it would include N.Ireland. Geographically it is only the island of Great Britain. Jack forbes (talk) 11:47, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

There are also entires for just UK, leaving out the geographical caveats. such as "Atheism and Agnostic United Kingdom - 32.00% - - 2001 Zuckerman, Phil. "Atheism: Contemporary Rates and Patterns ", chapter in The Cambridge Companion to Atheism, ed. by Michael Martin, Cambridge University Press: Cambridge, UK (2005) "According to Froese (2001), 32% of the British are atheist or agnostic. " [Source: Froese, Paul. 2001. "Hungary for Religion: A Supply-Side Interpretation of the Hungarian Religious Revival. " Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion 40(2): 251-268.] "[[Slatersteven (talk) 15:14, 30 May 2009 (UTC)]]

Civil War and Industrialisation

"High tariff protections, national infrastructure building, and new banking regulations encouraged growth."

I propose this sentence be removed. American economic growth during that period was spectacular, but "high tariff protections" and "banking regulations" especially are uncited and had historically dubious effects on growth.

Rainpat (talk) 19:51, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

I second that.Prussian725 (talk) 02:50, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

The sentence has already been edited to address the concern raised by Rainpat.—DCGeist (talk) 03:09, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

I do not see any significant mention of slavery. Of course, there was slavery in other societies; however, there is a certain American exceptionalism within the philosophical and cultural views of slavery that need to be mentioned, particularly since Slavery is considered to be a large component of in the culmination of the Civil War. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Citizen477 (talk • contribs) 00:32, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

WWII

"Participation in the war boosted the American economy, spurring capital investment and job creation."

This sentence has problems. Some economists (mainly Keynesians) would agree with this, but many others would not. While it is true that the US achieved a very strong economic position after the war, the US was not in great shape during the war. During the war goods were rationed and soldiers died - definitely a hindrance to the consumption of goods (the primary definition of a good or "boosted" economy).

The US produced a lot during the war, but this was production for the war effort. Life simply was not improved during the war because of material benefits. And because of loss of life and leisure(most in civilian population worked 80-hours a week), living standards were not high and therefore the economy was definitely not "strong" during the war.

It was the end of the war which caused the economic boom with the return of the Greatest Generation, the US's dominant political/economic position, their ability to help Europe with rebuilding, and their advantage of not having had their country physically destroyed by war. It is important not to confuse the concepts of war-boom and post-war-boom.

20:16, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

Any sources for this?[[Slatersteven (talk) 22:39, 3 June 2009 (UTC)]]

Hmm I don't have a source, but I agree with what he says. I think it would be more accurate to say that the war drastically cut unemployment and spurred investment in heavy industry (ie factories to make war machines) as well as other industries and leaving it at that. Saying that it "boosted the economy" certainly seems disputable to me, does North Korea have a strong economy because it maintains the industrial complex to produce lots of weapons? I think not. A tank, for example, is not productive, it is not adding to the economic well being of a nation in the way that a car, tractor or commercial airplane would. So I would agree, the sentence should just read "Participation in the war reduced unemployment after the great depression and spurred capital investment in many industries". TastyCakes (talk) 22:52, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

But the US did not only produce, it sold and in vast amounts. How do you cut unemployment without creating jobs, so that part of the statemnt is accurate and does not need to be alterd. Tyhe economy was boosted by investment and sales of war materials. The US became the first aliance leader to make a proifit from its allies.[[Slatersteven (talk) 23:10, 3 June 2009 (UTC)]]

The United States of America

No reliable source calls The United States of America (commonly referred to as America), and thus advocating for its use here is original research and not permissible.

America has never been an entity of The United States of America and is barely a nickname for The United States of America, as America consists of the 35 American countries respectably.

• The United States of America is in America, and has never been America as an entity of it's own and should be removed from the intro.

• All American countries of America are referred to as America, and not just the United States of America.

• America commonly refers to it's 35 American countries respectably, and is not subjected to The United States of America.

• The United States of America is a country in America, and does not contain the same entity as America.

• America consists of 35 independant nations of, and is not related to The United States of America.

• America is not related to The United States of America directly, but an entity of.

Kind Regards, American(Can) (talk) 21:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)