Talk:Tifa Lockhart

Merge

Character Page has been merged per Wikiproject Final Fantasy Policy and Wikipedia's policy on fictional characters. WP:FICTGavin Scott (talk) 22:19, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Current Article Status

The page has been unmerged, but it is again facing the prospect of a merge. If you do not believe it should be or believe it should, please post in Talk:Characters of Final Fantasy VII.

Let me get this right...

You can put a massive paragraph rambling on about idiotic name pronunciations argued by manic fans, but the not-even-a-full-page describing her backstory in the plot-heavy video game is considered too lengthy? Yup, it's official. Wikipedia is ruined.

I remember when it used to have useful and original information and not just be this terrible mishmash of random factoids from Gamespot and crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.29.25.49 (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Opinion

This page looks good why the "cleanup" needed?

reasonable reasons why sexier picture of Tifa is needed

In the Reception section, it goes on about all the magazines listing her as one of the sexiest characters around. Shouldn't there be a picture of her looking good, to demonstrate this? All there is now is a sketch which the uploader says he got from a fan site. Was this picture used in any game? If in most of her appearances, she was in 3D, then shouldn't there be a 3D picture? The magazines listed surely have a picture of her they choose to use. What game or movie was used most often? Dream Focus 01:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The current picture is the official artwork used in FF VII the original game including the official website and guidebooks. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 01:52, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Denzel OVA

Should a brief snippet be added to explain her role in the OVA? I can understand not including some roles she served in the other novellas, considering that most haven't been translated or were incredibly short, but Episode Denzel is a visual medium, thus more people are likely to view it (I'd imagine many aren't even aware of the novellas). Not to mention, it was included in the English ACC release. It wouldn't have to say much, of course; I can't even remember how long she was in it for. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 23:30, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Hair

Since this apparently an issue, and since claiming you have a source is apparently good enough to count as 'sourced information' I bring this here. The hair is dark brown. Not black. The AC SE disk does not contain an interview talking about this. The features on the discs were the same as on the basic SE, the extras were elsewhere, like the novellas. In any case, in the original game, in AC and ACC, in DoC, in CC, BC, Case of Denzel OAV and extra continuity cameos, not to mention her concept art, she has brown hair. It is dark brown. I'm amazed that this is even worth fighting about. In any case, unless those asserting that it is 'officially black' can provide evidence for this claim against all visible evidence to the contrary, their claims should not be taken seriously and not treated as 'sourced' —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.44.107 (talk) 06:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

The Japanese interview has Nozue state her character design provided two issues for them: her hair being solid black, and the length of it. The interview in particular can be found in the 16-page prologue book, and was seemingly not translated in the US release. A translation is also available here. Saying "oh but it looks like this because I see it like this" and demanding "visual evidence" really equates to nothing but WP:OR. Have a nice day.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 09:56, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Along with that, several CGI renderings do depict her with black hair; her first image in her Reunion Files section, for example, definitely shows this (which can be found by merely googling). Her hair only seems to appear dark brown in cases where lighting was abundant, which was probably an animation choice and/or made to resemble real life--from what I've read, black hair often shines brown under light...And I did have a guinea pig who was black and shined a dark brown in the sun, if that counts for anything. Honestly, it seems more like something SE just wanted to change; in the original and BC, Tifa appears with brown hair, while her appearance within CC has black hair. Usually hair color isn't disputed or needs a source, but Tifa's hair color has apparently been changed and has shown to be disputable. In any case, her official current color appears to be black, unless you can provide a source that says otherwise or one that states the original color was brown. Or can provide a translation of the prologue books that says otherwise; I am aware you (or people lurking her, anywayxD) are from the Lifestream, who do have access to a great translator. If no one feels the need to trouble him with something they consider frivolous or stupid, then no need to; just know that until further notice, the hair color will be listed as black because the most recent official source (as well as CC and AC when she isn't in direct lighting) show it, too. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 20:38, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

If this translation was translated properly, and will see if it is, Prologue was not sold with AC. The citation is still incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.44.107 (talk) 22:00, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I'll fix the citation--I assume it was originally there because of an assumption that the book came with the DVD (though in any case it should have cited the book). Glad your going to Hito; if it does turn out to be incorrect, XComp should be contacted and we can change it to list (dark) brown. If it says black, I don't know what would be done about it previously being brown, if anything. Whether or not original research, I will say that I personally believe it was another design change because it is obviously brown in her image for FFVII and especially BC. In BC, it's not even dark brown or the "light shining through black" color, but about one or two shades darker than Aerith's. For a regular outer appearance reference, I believe using a game ref. or something of the sort if fine. If allowed, the RF's BC section could be cited to include that her hair is "black--brown in previous installments--" or something to that affect. However, because the dispute, I'm not sure if that would be allowed... WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

Ref has been fixed; Kung Fu, was all the information cited with that ref from the prologue book? Or was some of it from extra features on the DVD? I wasn't sure whether to change it all to the prologue ref or not...Though at this point it seems like the DVD ref is obsolete on this page. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I must say that the colour perception of Westerners and Asians are very different. One of the fun things that showed this problem, appeared back when Japanese cars was exported to the US, and the colouring of the cars was percepted differently than the pictures they were showing to the buyers. Asians seems to accept a much wider range of dark colour as black for hair colour, especially when used in artistic purposes. It might be caused by the fact that most Asian regard their own hair colour as black like all other Asians do, yet the actual scientific colour is dark brown. Say, my hair looks basically black, but when under bright lighting like sun light, it reflects a brownish colour, and the colour will get lighter for many reasons like decolourization by swimming pool chlorine water(much lighter brown for frequent swimmer); different diet or water treatment(5 years of American life lightened the hair colour quite a bit but change back rapidly after returning to Asia); repeated hair styling applied, even some types of shampoo will change the hair colour as well. However, unless the colour was changed significantly to something like golden brown, most darker brown colour will still be regarded as black due to most people perceive their own hair as black. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 01:18, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

That's pretty interesting :D I didn't know diet had that much control over hair color; I guess you learn something new every day. Plus, that further supports the notion of Tifa having black hair that just reflects brown under certain lighting. Over at the Lifestream, the translator told us that not only does the prologue book call her hair black, but so an Ultimania. Whether or not it was originally brown, it's safe to say that Tifa's official hair color is black. WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 03:01, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, it is not a lot of control, it changed from something like pitch black in dim light to have brown shades in the same lighting.(in bright light, it is of course a lighter brown) I guess it is a long struggle for artists to find a way to depict the black colour realistically. Either the shades has to look grey(and old), or the shades are almost impossible to render purely by black and white. There seems to be people with authentic purely black hair(or they dye it black, same effect) but either 2D or 3D, or even in photos/videos, it is very hard to make them look good. In photos/videos, photographers seems to try to apply more lighting or find places with sufficient reflection of different colours, and/or simply dye the model's hair colour a bit. Like in a Shampoo ad, the model's hair actually reflects to be a very unnatural dark red(the brand's bottle colour) but look perfectly black when not reflecting bright light. These are already considered much easier than any drawings, since each hair is naturally separated from one another. —Preceding signed comment added by MythSearcher^talk 03:31, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Inferred Sex Scene

This is my attempt have a discussion with the people who keep changing the direct quote from Nomura regarding the inferred sex scene under the Highwind to "Nomura in an interview stated he was surprised by the impact it had upon viewers," and "Kitase replaced" to " Kitase rejected" in regards to Nomura's originally proposed scenario.

For a start, what you have written does not give the correct impression of what Nomura actually said. Nomura said in regards to the "impact", and I quote directly from the 10th Anniversary Ultimania, "The original idea was more extreme. The plan was to have Cloud walk out of the Chocobo stable on board the Highwind, followed by Tifa leaving while checking around, but Kitase turned it down. But even with the line in question, maybe at that time none of us thought it would be something so important (laughs)." Nomura says nothing about being surprised with "the impact it had upon viewers"; he says that they, the creators themselves, didn't realise that the scene, or at least what was implied in that scene, would be so important (presumably to the rest of the compilation's story).

Currently the page also says "A scene intended to imply her and Cloud having sex was proposed by Nomura, but was rejected by Kitase," which is wrong since Kitase didn't flat out reject the scenario, he toned it down and replaced it with the "risqué" line. See what Kitase says about the scene in the same interview in the 10th Anniversary Ultimania: "But I remember having to get another version that was too intense toned down."

If you dislike my addition of direct quotes in the article itself that's fine, but what's currently there incorrectly portrays what has actually been said about this scene officially and needs to be changed. Essoroulettes (talk) 16:55, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

The interview is in Japanese. If you want to add a quote it has to have the original version of the quote.Tintor2 (talk) 17:35, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

So I'd have to edit in the original Japanese text? Either way, the text currently there is incorrect and I'd still like to know what it's been based on. Essoroulettes (talk) 21:37, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

The problem is the use of quotes since the interview was not officially translated to English.Tintor2 (talk) 21:45, 31 December 2009 (UTC)

Some quotes in this article come from exclusive Japanese material that hasn't been translated, though. I wasn't aware there was a problem with using quotes from other languages. Though, for List of One Piece characters, the German is used and then translated into English. Would that be proper procedure? In any case, information can be added if it doesn't directly use quotes, otherwise all foreign information would be useless. Wouldn't it be fine to add the info and just not use quotes? WhiteArcticWolf (talk) 04:17, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to attempt to do just that. If anyone would like to re-word it, do so, of course, but we're going a step backwards if someone simply pastes back in what's already there. It's incorrect and appears to be based on nothing other than the very same interview (which is why it's peculiar that it's wrong anyway). Post-edit: I've realised it was Nojima who said they didn't realise "it would be something so important". Also, while it's not too clear from the interview, Katou appears to have been the one who originally proposed the more "extreme" scenario, not Nomura. This has all been amended. Essoroulettes (talk) 14:22, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I'll add that these lines have been translated by individuals whom wiki has seen fit to use as sources for things like hair color. Also the scene was meant to imply Cloud and Tifa had sex. But was toned down. The implication was not removed. Thus the Highwind scene which is considered important by the creators and included in places like the 10 anniversary Ultimania, Cloud and Tifa are implied to have sex. Toned down is not rejected. My 2 cents. TheJaff (talk) 11:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

To reply to you're "2 cents", TheJaff, I guess the question is did they have sex? Judging that Cloud and Tifa are living together in Advent Children, it's possible to infer they are a couple - even more so after Cloud kills Sephiroth again - but then again that particular cutscene was akin to the date with Aeris (canon in-universe), which could also be held with Tifa, Yuffie, or Barrett. Nothing in the sequals supports that they are in that kind of a relationship (though AC hints that Tifa wants to go there), so it's really nothing more than shipping based on risque content that was to be included in the game but wasn't for the very reason it was risque. That is why Final Fantasy VII is "T", not "M". As for whether the implication they had sex was removed or not, they fell asleep side by side -> fade to black -> they woke up side by side. If anything happened in between, that's what fanfiction's for. By all means include that Nomura planned to hint that Cloud and Tifa get it on, but that it was rejected and replaced with Tifa saying she'll support Cloud no matter what before they take a nap. My 2 cents. 75.157.110.77 (talk) 02:45, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

A couple of things. First off the Aerith date is not the canon date scene in the game. None has been made official. Secondly your personal opinion about what kind of relationship you think Cloud and Tifa are in during AC and what that says about that night under the Highwind is meaningless. The interview plainly stated that the scene was toned down. The implication was not removed. Both of these points are further enforced by this translation from the FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario book page 394 (FOR THE ONE I LOVE)."VII – Secret date At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior." and "VII – The night before the final battle Thanks to Tifa, Cloud regains himself, and before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match". We also have official Ultimania quotes about Cloud and Tifa confirming their desire for each other. And about a dozen more Ultimania quotes on the subject.TheJaff (talk) 10:45, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong. It's obvious that Tifa loves Cloud, and at least by the end of AC he fully reciprocates that. Even so, judging by her arguement with Cloud when she finds out he has Geostigma they were not a couple, at least not at that point. And if all that the Ultimania says about that cutscene is that "before the final battle with Sephiroth, without using words, he confirms with her that their feelings match", then it leaves exactly what those "feelings" are up to the opinion of the reader. If those 12+ quotes refute that and confirm that they are a couple beyond all reasonable doubt, then they should be sourced and added to the article as evidence. I had heard that the scene under the Highwind varies depending on how you treat Tifa throughout the game, but unless I am mistaken in that, and I very well may be, then the canon state of her relationship with Cloud should not be based on that one scene, but rather on her interactions with him throughout the whole FF7 continuum. 75.157.110.77 (talk) 07:08, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Once again how you personally feel about Cloud and Tifa's interactions in AC don't really matter. One could easily say it is because they are in a a relationship that Tifa confronts Cloud in a bedroom. And that assertion would be backed up by official sources. Also The "feelings" described in that quote are on a page about romantic love in the FF series. So could people please stop making this more complicated than it has to be? None of the official quotes about the Highwind scene are intentionally ambiguous. "It doesn't say what feelings" has to be one of the silliest arguments I have ever seen.TheJaff (talk) 20:27, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

• [1] A guy on a Final Fantasy forum says they showed them getting romantic, and then showed them cuddling the next day, Tifa falling down embarrassed when she found out others could see them. YouTube probably has the scene in question on it somewhere. Surely some English source media reviewed the scene, and quoted the developers. Dream Focus 09:52, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

More likely than not Tifa was embarassed that they may have heard her heart-to-heart with Cloud, and AC maintains that they are not a sexually active couple, though as I said Tifa drops obvious hints that she wants to marry Cloud. As for whether the scene was romantic to that extent, it's that guy's interpretation. Just because two childhood-friends-of-opposite-genders happen to fall asleep next to each other doesn't mean they have sex, and they could have huddled together for warmth. I played the game aiming for the Tifa date (granted, she tried to confess and say "I love you," but failed) and got this scene as a result, and I found nothing sexual about it. If they were gonna do it they would've made out first, as another person on the forum pointed out, and in that respect Yuffie, despite being 5 years younger than Cloud (almost making it inverted child molestation), was farther along than either Aerith or Tifa. The way I saw it, Tifa was just telling Cloud she trusted him absolutely and reassuring him that he was not alone. (She literally knows how his mind works after all). Whether you see anything other than that is your interpretation, and it's my belief that the scene was crafted for exactly that purpose. 75.157.110.77 (talk) 11:59, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I looked around on Youtube and watched various videos, but couldn't find what exactly was mentioned. And did the Japanese version perhaps have something the American version did not? Dream Focus 18:00, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

No. It just had different dialogues.Tintor2 (talk) 23:50, 3 March 2010 (UTC)