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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by AycliffeAngel (talk | contribs) at 22:51, 2 June 2010 (→Renaming page). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Move article

I think we'll have to move this article to something like 2010 Cumbria shootings as the BBC News Channel is reporting several deaths and shots fired in at least three different locations. TheRetroGuy (talk) 11:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then let's do that. The Rambling Man (talk) 12:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Just did it actually, I hadn't seen your comments beforehand, but I agree that it is the correct move. Anyway it's been done. TigerShark (talk) 12:06, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Derrick Bird now found dead

[1] - good enough as a cite? Pedro :  Chat  13:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say good enough to say they found a body believed to be him, yes. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BBC are also saying "believed" [2] Pedro :  Chat  13:13, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the Cumbrian police link. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Weapons

Do we know what weapsons were used in the shooting? Nath1991 (talk) 13:14, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shotgun. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One of the BBC reporters mentioned that he'd overheard the police mentioning "bullets" as opposed to shotgun cartridges. Cryomaniac (talk) 13:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A doctor confirming deaths said they were the worst shotgun wounds he'd ever seen. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Any news on the make/model etc? Nath1991 (talk) 13:25, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not yet, but the police have confirmed they found a weapon alongside his body, so more details may come out soon. The Rambling Man (talk) 13:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
A young man being interviewed by the BBC said he saw the shooter with a scopped Rifle looking at a hill from his taxi.-- OsirisV (talk) 17:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Two weapons, almost certainly shotgun (from doctor report) and maybe a scoped rifle. Nothing definitive that we can cite though. Yet. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:54, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Guy on BBC says "shotgun and assault rifle". Still nothing concrete to cite though. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:59, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Only time I heard "assault rifle" was when they were mentioning previous massacres, and that one in the '80s led to a ban of such weapon. Maybe he had three weapons, maybe the guy was unable to tell the difference and exaggerating on certain parts. Still too early. I'm sure the BBC site may provide some interview videos.-- OsirisV (talk) 18:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He was a former policeman, so I guess "not telling the difference" isn't part of it. We'll see. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What if we had "Scoped Rifle (believed)<ref>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/10215998.stm Cyclist Barry Moss account provided by BBC News</ref>" in the weapons list? It's true that one is believed to have been used, and we have a source to back it up.-- OsirisV (talk) 18:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I don't believe that a cyclist would be better placed to identify a weapon than a retired police officer. Let's wait. There's no deadline. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:13, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Telegraph is reporting [3] a .22 rifle was used. - Timsheridan (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Link fails. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed. - Timsheridan (talk) 18:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, well the Telegraph is a WP:RS so perhaps this could be added. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:35, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He also had a 22 rifle with a scope-according to Sky news. (TheGreenwalker (talk) 22:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC))[reply]

So two RSs with a scoped .22, guess it means we can add it. Good research. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming page

Now, after 13 deaths confirmed, In my opinion the article could be rename as 2010 Cumbria massacre, or simply Cumbria massacre... - SiMioN.EuGeN (talk) 17:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Definately not, it's not THAT major!! Ggoere (talk) 17:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
See Hungerford massacre or Dunblane massacre. Here 38 people were involved (1 shooter, 12 deaths, 25 injuries) SiMioN.EuGeN (talk) 17:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Um, Hungerford massacre wasn't that much more "major" as you put it. I suggest we wait and see. If the popular press etc start calling it something like that, then we can reconsider. No point in rushing it now though. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:21, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking on moving it to "massacre", but felt that it would require discussion. The BBC has a timeline of the shootings based on interviews by the way. I moved "shootings" to "Shootings" because the similar "massacre" was capitalised in a number of search results. I guess you'd want to examine those.-- OsirisV (talk) 17:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I guess you'd like to familiarise yourself with Wikipedia naming conventions, like Hungerford massacre. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I live in Whitehaven. Locally they are using words like 'shootings', 'gunman' and 'rampage', but I've not heard 'massacre' being used yet. 86.150.205.78 (talk) 19:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, we'll stick with what we have for the time being. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:34, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, the 'Cumbria Shootings' is how BBC national and the local press/radio are describibg today's events. Perhaps the media or public might change their minds in the future, so we can change it then if they do. 86.150.205.78 (talk) 19:39, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, there are various references throughout the BBC outlets to Cumbria Shootings, Cumbria shootings, CUMBRIA SHOOTINGS, so let's stick with regular English and not capitalise nouns which don't need to be capitalised. And, just out of interest, how could you tell the radio were referring to this event with a capital S? Cool. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:41, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not bothered really...other things on our minds. But '2010 Cumbria Shootings' is a title, and title case is caps for major words. If you say 'the 2010 Cumbria shootings' in running text, that's OK, because Cumbria is a place name, or it was when I went to school. 86.150.205.78 (talk) 19:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, "Shootings" is not a proper noun, so we don't capitalise it. If you want to run this out over Wikipedia, then fine, for example Hungerford massacre presumably needs to be moved? You could also read WP:HEAD which, while not directly relevant, would suggest you do not unnecessarily capitalise words. And you do seem bothered as you keep arguing in favour of this move. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Call it what you want. We've had floods, dead and maimed schoolchildren and now this. All we're short of round here now now is a plague of frogs or Scafell Pike to erupt. 86.150.205.78 (talk) (Ends) —Preceding undated comment added 20:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC). p.s. Shouldn't it be 'The rambling man' ? 86.150.205.78 (talk) 20:12, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's my name, so it's a proper noun. Cheers! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly...it doesn't matter does it?. More Wikibollox when people are dying. All I was saying (if you look up a bit) was "don't use the word 'massacre' yet". Maybe in future, but not yet. Have a good night, Mr Man, or can I call you Rambling? :-) 86.150.205.78 (talk) 21:01, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wittness on BBC very specific that "single barrelled shotgun with a telescopic sight" used Gendankenlautwerden (talk) 22:04, 2 June 2010 (UTC)Gendankenlautwerden[reply]

Channel 5 are showing a show tomorrow titled: 5 News Special: The Cumbrian Massacre. Something to consider. --AycliffeAngel (talk) 22:51, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Frizington

There is certainly a crime scene and the Copeland recycling centre at Frizington. I am a local and it is cordoned off. It has been reported in the media but it is almpst certainly linked —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.209.248.67--Footix2 (talk) 17:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC) [reply]

Okay, but until we get anything that we can reference (and it may already be incorporated in the statement from the police), we'll need to leave it out. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Own article?

Will Derrick Bird get his own article?

Doubt it, for instance Michael Ryan (mass murderer) hasn't. Why do you ask? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Was just wondering really. I'm not really sure what these Wikipedia policies are. I would ask a question to you but the question doesn't really involve the article.Liquinn (talk) 18:16, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Notability (people)#People notable only for one event may be what you're looking for? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:18, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah thanks, that's the one. Sorry this is not really about this article but... How come Stephen Griffiths has his own article and Derrick Bird doesn't? Liquinn (talk) 18:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's ok. His article is up for deletion, and I guess in his case there's not quite so much to write about, unlike here where we know it was a 2010 mass murder that took place by shooting in Cumbria... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK thanks, I think this is slightly off topic but how can I contact you as I have another question? Thanks. Liquinn (talk) 18:32, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Either leave me a message on my talk page or email me using the toolbox from my user page. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Responding to The Rambling Man, I can make one exception to that rule. Rohedin TALK 21:28, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not surprised that there would be one or two exceptions. But this character will probably not gain the notoriety of those guys. However, time will tell. I'm pretty convinced that, right now, this page will cover it all. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:30, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

File:Whitehaven area 1 in 250 000 scale.png

Question, are edited OS maps really CC licensed? Not sure how Ordnance Survey maps are released. S.G.(GH) ping! 18:52, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that crossed my mind but I seem to recall a quite recent release of these scales of mapping by OS into the more public domain. I'll dig around... The Rambling Man (talk) 18:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This may shed some light on the deal? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:53, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to suggest as long as OS are credited, they're in line with CC 3.0. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes that seems legit. S.G.(GH) ping! 19:08, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
And I guess it'll open the floodgates...! The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Birthplace

What is the source for Bird being born in York? I can't find that reported anywhere, all reports speak of a "local" man - obviously it doesn't necessarily follow that he was born in Cumbria, but still the source for York needs citing. Draggleduck (talk) 19:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, tagged. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:02, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- Further to that at the time he was born 'North Yorkshire' did not exist. If it is confirmed that he is from York, then it should be replaced with 'North Riding of Yorkshire'.Mtaylor848 (talk) 19:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to remove the info until we can cite it. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:23, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


he was born in ennerdale —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.153.125 (talk) 21:00, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Monkseaton Shootings

No article on wikipedia for this- 1 dead and 12 injured. I lived in Monkseaton at the time. Sartin was found not guilty as he pleaded insanity. I am local to Whitehaven by the way. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.79.153.125 (talk) 21:05, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why not create an account and write an article about it. There's a very good article on this subject on the BBC News site. [4] Cheers TheRetroGuy (talk) 21:22, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, as I suggested, create the article, then we can talk about adding it as a "See also". Note, this has nothing to do with "disrespecting" those affected by the shooting at Monkseaton. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:24, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Motivation

BBC say Bird was reported to have been in an argument last night, but it will need a ref before it goes in. Rich Farmbrough, 21:29, 2 June 2010 (UTC).[reply]

The locals who knew him say that he was a normal, affable 'Joe Bloggs' type of character. A bit on the quiet side, but by no means an oddball 'misfit' like Michael Ryan. Another witness says that he was 'different' to his normal self this morning. You really never know what is going on between a man's ears, do you?. Perhaps the tragedy is that (because of 'kneejerk' British gun laws), there was really nobody in Whitehaven able to shoot him dead on the spot - and face whatever music was coming - before Bird then went on to slay all the others. 86.150.205.78 (talk) 22:48, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Heh, good one. Our gun laws have restricted the UK to three major sprees in the last 25 years. It seems that in the US or China, we get a "spree" every month. I'd say British gun laws are doing a reasonable job. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:50, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

daily mail

Do we really want to be using the daily mail as a source?©Geni 22:03, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Preferably not. Can we find alternatives for this? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:33, 2 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
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