Talk:Skanderbeg

Editors who are interested in improving this article are encouraged to read this talk page discussion and the previous discussion at the Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive 1.

Skanderbeg is half Serb by mom

Albanians, instead of stoling Alexander the Great and Constantine the Great... respect own history and historical facts! Skanderbeg is Serb by mother Vojislava and do not try to fake it as you did with fake encyclopedia in FYR of Macedonia. No passaran!!!!

Why you don't add that historical fact that he was half Serb? Wikipedia can use relevanat sources or to ask Serbian and real Albanian historians about that? I see that this article has a lot of not confirmed facts. You should clean it and write it correctly and real if you want people to trust to Wikipedia! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.93.25.103 (talk) 11:43, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

He could hardly be Serb but rather Bulgarian. According to Bulgarian sources his brother's name was Stanish. Besides, Skenderbeg joined the European coalition to liberate Bulgaria at a time when the Serbs were Ottoman allies. --Vladko (talk) 15:22, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Protected

The old, old dispute about whether Skanderbeg is Serbian, or of Serbian descent, or otherwise, has reared its head again. I see previous discussions here, but no consensus; however, edit-warring is unhelpful. I know very little about Balkan politics, so am neutral here. Accordingly, I have fully protected this page for three days for discussion to follow on the cited sources on either side. If there is no consensus, I suggest editors follow some form of dispute resolution. But one thing is certain- disruption will not be tolerated. Rodhullandemu 00:38, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Since you asked for it, I'll try. I doubt the opposing side will join though.

Source 1 (Guerrilla warfare by Walter Laqueur): This does not not specialize on Skanderbeg and is inaccurate. For example, Skanderbeg began his revolt in 1443, not 1442. Also, Fizur is not a Turkish name, but Firuz is. After his death his movement did not collapse, but was continued by Lek Dukagjini. If the author was careless enough as to put that in his book, then why should we believe what he says about Skanderbeg? Furthermore, this book specializes on the history of guerrilla tactics and warfare, not national origins.

Source 2 (A Legal Geography of Yugoslavia's Disintegration by Ana S. Trbovich): The book specializes on the fall of Yugoslavia and uses old Serbian sources to "prove" Skanderbeg was a Serb. The first mention uses Jovan Cvijić as a source. He has been dead for more than eighty years, and this must be considered outdated, if not biased. The second mention uses Harry Hodgkinson as a source to try to verify his "Greek-Serb-Albanian" stock. Hodgkinson's book never mentions such a thing, and, contrary to what Trbovich cites, the book tries to refute his supposed Serb and Greek national stock. Note seven for chapter two in Scanderbeg: From Ottoman Captive to Albanian Hero says this exactly: Since everything in the Balkans has to be turned into political effect, both Greeks and Slavs have claimed Scanderbeg as one of themselves. The Greeks who do so rely on the fact that the name Castrioti probably means the family originally came from a village with the Greek name Castrion ('a little castle') of which there were many in the Byzantine empire. This is as scholarly as proving that the Bishop of Chester must be a Roman Catholic, and his ancestors Italians, because 'chester' in a name is proof of Roman occupation. The claim that Scanderbeg was a Slavs was first made by a German who misread a document of 1368 in Serbian. Among the signatories were a Branilo (a Slav Christian name) of Vlora and a Castrioti of Kanina. By overlooking the single letter 'i' (meaning 'and') he produced Branilo Castrioti as Scanderbeg's Serbian great-grandfather. Therfore, here is evidence that Trbovich miscited her source.

Source 3 (Travels in the Slavonic provinces by Georgina Mary Sebright and Adelina Paulina Irby): The title should foreshadow what I will say: this book does not specialize on Skanderbeg and not even Albania. Also the book was written in 1877.

As a final note, I will show how careless the compiler of these sources was when trying to hide the fact that he was cherrypicking sources. When one opens up the link the compiler provided, he will see that in the Search bar it says Skanderbeg Serb. When one clicks the Search Books button, he will see a whole list of sources saying Skanderbeg was an Albanian or arguing against other national origins.

I will compile a few of them myself:

• George Castroiti Scanderbeg (1405-1468) by Fan Noli See pg. 198, where he tells us that John Musachi, a relative of Vojsava, says that she was Albanian.
• A History of the Crusades, Volume six, by Kenneth M. Setton, Harry W. Hazard and Norman P. Zacour
• The rise of nationality in the Balkans by Robert William Seton-Watson
• The fall of Constantinople, 1453 by Steven Runciman

I hope this will clarify my intentions from now on when I revert a disruptive edit dealing with what I have argued against.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:09, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I made no comment on content here as the protecting admin, but my Chambers Biographical Dictionary describes him as "of Serbian descent", and I'm ambivalent as to how reliable that is. Meanwhile, WP:BURDEN applies, so it's up the the other editor to provide valid sources which, as you eloquently point out, seem to be lacking. Rodhullandemu 19:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Skenderbeg WAS Albanian, I'm not trying to dispute that;in the Balkans (and usually elsewhere in Europe) your paternal identity is your ethnicity, his mother WAS a Serb however. Again, find me a source that specifically says she WASN'T a Serb.

Anyways, as for your little "careless" claim, I've got nothing to hide, you asked for published sources, I gave you published sources (although the ones the first time were dismissed even though they were the most authentic presented). I'm tired of this BS. Skenderbeg was an ALBANIAN, his mother was a Serb, get over it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as how a consensus on her nationality is impossible to reach (since Vojsava is a very ambiguous character; we don't even know for sure what family she came from!), I suggest doing what I have been trying to do for months: establish common ground. By that I mean not mentioning whether or not she was Serbian or Albanian or Bulgarian or Macedonian or Vlach or Greek or whatever nationality wants her. Just mentioning that she was the mother of Skanderbeg and is claimed by John Musachi (who, by the way, is an Albanian nobleman) as his relative and that Marin Barleti says she is from the Tribalda family is enough for me. Furthermore, I will again cite Fan Noli in his explanation of how futile an attempt to give a national origin of an Albanian chieftain. (Fan Noli) As to what you said about the published sources, I tried to undermine their supposed reliability above. I have to agree though, even if he did not have a single ounce of Albanian blood, then he still is an Albanian. He fought for the Albanians, with the Albanians, followed the Albanian religion, united Albania, called himself an Albanian, and everyone else saw him as an Albanian. This would be similar to the case of C.G.E. Mannerheim, the national hero of Finland who is of German and Swedish heritage. But we're discussing his origins, not his claimed nationality.

This is meant to be a response to both replies.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Not good enough, friend. Firstly, since all my sources are "outdated", I could use the same argument against yours, but I won't. Although while we are talking about Marin Barleti, Croatian scribe Kacic Miosic actually mentions that Skenderbeg spoke Serbian fluently and carried all his discussions in this language.

See, not saying she was Serbian implies that she was Albanian, a historically unsound implication considering there's sources that support the contrary and not mentioning these sources wouldn't be historically accurate.

I slightly changed the article to state that she was of "likely" Serbian descent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 21:11, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Marin Barleti is a primary source, Miosic isn't. If you want people to believe to believe you, you should put an exact and verifiable reference from Marin Barleti, whom Miosic cited. Also, just because he knew Serbian doesn't mean he was a Serb. He probably grew up with Serbian Janissaries for all we know. Besides, he fought for the Ottoman Empire in Serbia. He knew Turkish, Latin, Greek, Arabic, and a bunch of other languages by the way. We should put that he was of possible Bulgarian, Vlach, Turkish and Greek descent too. :)--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

The mother of Skanderbeg was a Bulgarian. „Huic uxor fuit Voisava, Pologi Domini filia, est autem Pologum oppidum in Macedoniae et Bulgarie confinibus.” Gegaj,A., L`Albanie et l`invasion turque au XV, Paris, 1937, pp.33-34; Pisko Julius, Skanderbeg. Historische Studie, Wien, 1894, pp.115-116; Jingby (talk) 17:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Nevertheles she was from Slavic origin, see:Kosovo: contending voices on Balkan interventions, William Joseph Buckley, Publisher William B. Eerdmans Pub., 2000 ISBN 0802838898, p. 101. Jingby (talk) 18:23, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

By all means put he was possible Bulgarian, Vlach, and Greek descent, BY ALL MEANS. However, MOST sources identify that his mother was a Serb and this should be stated as well. That is called historical accuracy my friend, like I said, not specifying what ethnicity she was likely to or may have been automatically implies that she is Albanian and this is not historically accurate. This has to be addressed.

The article should read "was a princess of likely Serbian (references go here) or possibly Albanian (references), Bulgarian (refrences), Vlach (references) etc. origin" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 18:38, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Musachi, an Albanian nobleman, says she is related to him, therefore making her an Albanian. ([1]) Which is the most reliable?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

First of all, you're citing an Albanian historian. That being said, her supposedly "being related" to him does not necessarily mean she of primarily Albanian descent. I'm "related" to my great-great-great-great-great-great grandfather, but he could be from Scandinavia for all I know.

Next, great you have a source. So do I. Why do your sources get mentioned but mine don't? Clearly its not unanimous or set in stone fact that she was an Albanian and this HAS TO BE ADDRESSED in order to be historically accurate.

Lastly, I'm going to dig up a few more sources. I know I have them it'll just be a little bit before I can find them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 20:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

He's not a historian. He was a contemporary of Skanderbeg (Musachi). Also, I have heard that Vojsava's house can still be visited in Berat. This would make sense if she was really a Musachi since that family controlled Berat. But please don't take this too seriously. This is just what I have heard. However, I think it is still worth a mention since maybe somebody could possibly verify it.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

As per WP:RS you have to have an author dealing with Skanderbeg topic in detailed manner. As far as I see here and throughout the article itself Noli 1947 is the latest and most authoritative source on him. The other sources which deal in detail with him are Barletius 1510, Mussachi 1510-20, Paganel 1855. They all have been used and analyzed in the last work of Noli. For example the fact which was noticed first by Jorga (that had been a misinterpretation of Skanderbeg father origin in a document in Kanina castle in Vlora region there was a document signed by some nobleman, between them there was ..,Branilo i Castriot ... led Hahn to the conclusion that he was a Skanderbeg great grandfather and he was a serb. This reference has been used in 19th century in some of the books regarding Skanderbeg. In the beginning of XX century Jorga saw that document and concluded that (i) in the middle of the two names showed two different persons "Branilo and Castriot" was the right translation instead of the first one) is presented in the book and every source on Skanderbeg has been analyzed and used. Up to now he remains the most authoritative source on Skanderbeg and his opinion on Skanderbeg origin is the more relevant. Aigest (talk) 07:03, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Voisava was Bulgarian or Serbian princess. Check here, please: Compte rendu du Congrès scientifique international des Catholiques tenu a Paris du 1er au 6 avril 1891: section. Sciences religieuses, Volume 2 of Compte rendu du Congrès scientifique international des Catholiques tenu A. Picard, 1891 Jingby (talk) 08:34, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Apparently you didn't read or understand my above discussion. Please take a look at WP:RS in wiki, just click on the link. Aigest (talk) 13:32, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Fan Noli is an Albanian historian, Gaius. Also, lets not forget that there is a good chance she came from this "Tribalda" family. It would make sense that this family was Serbian because "Tribal" was a medieval name used by foreigners for Serbs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi On top of the sources I've provided (as well as this new one Jingiby provided), I don't see why the possiblity that Vojsava was a Serb doesn't deserve to be at least mentioned. Can you tell me why?

Aigest, we are not talking about his grandfather, we are talking about his mother. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 21:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Fan Noli's work is one of the first extensive and fully sourced biographies on Skanderbeg in the modern era. The fact that he is Albanian does not negate this. Fan Noli must be considered reliable since his biography on Skanderbeg is used in the scholarly world today. Furthermore, Vojsava's family origins seems to be contentious since Musachi claims her as his relative, while Barleti says she is a Tribalda. Ultimately, it should not mention her nationality because trying to determine the ethnicity of an aristocrat would only lead to speculation. Moreover, it is not important. Why would somebody from a strict paternal society care about what his mother's origins were? If she was Serb, he would not need his mother's supposed Serbian background for anything. What would he do with it, ally with a vassal of the sultan when the greatest European monarchs were just across the sea?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:05, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Whatever you say. Why shouldn't it mention nationality, you're not making any sense, if you can provide more information as opposed to less, why would you want to provide less? (unless you've clearly got an agenda, which is pretty obvious). Again, not mentioning her ethnicity implies that she was Albanian which is far from an established fact, people reading the article deserve to know this. Well, I'm guessing him speaking fluent Serbian probably had something to with his mother. The bottom line is, there is absolutely no reason not to mention it.

Also, Serbia was a vassal of the sultan from 1389-1402 after which it sided with Hungary against the Ottomans. And Skanderbeg did make alliances with Serbian leaders. We fought the Venetians together on numerous occasions for example. Anyways, him making alliances "with the greatest monarchs of Europe" didn't do jack for him, they sent token troops and very minor financial aid so yeah, allying with Serbia probably would have provided him with more real,actual support. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 19:58, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

You say her origins are far from established as fact yet you want to put her possible origins in?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:18, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. Because not putting them implies that they are. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 03:21, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 15:39, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

So you want to make Skanderbeg a Serb because you don't want people to know that he's Albanian?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:24, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

No, you're twisting my words. I want to make clear the possibility that Skanderbeg's mother could quite possibly be a woman of Serbian descent (refs) or Albanian descent (refs). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 17:56, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, are you gonna respond? It's a wily tactic you're pulling by just ignoring these discussions all together so you get your way. Tell me, whats wrong with what I have proposed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. If you really want me to argue against your position, I will, but using references from the stone age won't help. All the citations that are used correspond to my initial arguments of unreliability which have yet to be debunked.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:00, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

The only "arguments" you had were redundant and abstract. Clearly, 4 published sources, her Slavic name, and the Slavic names of her offspring and relatives suggest AT LEAST THE POSSIBILITY that she was a Serb. Not to metnion the fact that some of his relatives were even buried in Hilandar, a Serbian monastery. This is absolutely ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 17:28, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

So Skanderbeg is now a devout Serbian Orthodox Christian and so was his family? Even if this were true, it does not imply Serbian ethnicity since many Albanian nobles converted to the Serbian Orthodox Church to avoid being labeled as a heretic by Dushan and his heirs. Why should anybody care what nationality Voisava was anyways? The only references that mention her Serbian ethnicity rely on the fact that Voisava is probably a Slavic name. Voisava was a common Albanian name of the time, found in many Albanian noble families like the Topia. Anyways, what it says now does not mention whether or not she was Albanian or Serbian, just that she was likely from the Tribalda family or the Musachi family. Let the Musachis and the Tribaldas argue over this.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:41, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

You say Albanians converted to Serbian Orthodoxy to avoid "persecution". ANd that exactly it, that's your opinion, its not fact, and you don't have anything to back you up.Prove that "The only references that mention her Serbian ethnicity rely on the fact that Voisava is probably a Slavic name". You dug your own grave with that last comment. Karlo Thopia married Voisava Balšić a SERBIAN noblewoman. They had a daughter named Voislava Thopia. Clearly its a Serbian name my friend.

As for your final remark, that's utter BS, because not stated the possibility that she was Serbian gives the reader the impression that she MUST have been an Albanian which clearly isn't an established fact and that has to be mentioned and you know it as well as I. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 02:33, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

The Serbs, evangelized many centuries after the Albanians, did not receive their missionaries from Rome. In Stefan Dušan's Code of Laws, there are indications that those who had links with Rome were persecuted. Source: "The Albanians in Yugoslavia in light of historical documents" by Dr. S. S. Juka. John Kastrioti, in letters to his Serbian neighbors, claimed to adopt their faith and even wrote his letters in the Serbian language when in correspendence with them. He was originally a Catholic, however, and died that way. The fact that Voisava's national origins are not recorded by the primary sources is enough to show that the claim relies on name and region of birth. Perhaps I used the wrong Voisava for my support, but Musachi mentions Voisava Arianiti, Donna Voisava Carles (who was his niece), and a Voisava Kastrioti, who was the granddaughter of Skanderbeg. Besides, the Albanians claim the Balsha family (Eqrem bey Vlora does so). There is also a possiblity that Milos Obilic was Albanian and the battle of Kosovo was fought by Albanians; this is a published theory ([2]). Do you get what I'm saying? By the way, I'm pretty busy in real life so I won't respond as often as before.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:34, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

That's great, Milos Obilic might have been an Albanian. By all means, you can write that on the Milos Obilic page if you want to and as long as you provide a reference, I'm not gonna stop you (although your source isn't a theory its a translation of an Albanian epic poem). So why then, is the clearly real possibility (an opinion shared by 5 published sources that I have provided) that Skenderbeg's mother might have been a Serb not allowed to be posted?

You may be of the opinion that the sources I have are invalid, but that's all that is, an opinion and a wikipedia article can't cite that as a source. It can, however, cite 5 published, non-Serb sources whether you agree with them or not.

You're a jokster. Your sources are outdated! When will you realize that? News Flash: Western writers can be just as biased and unreliable as Balkan writers, especially when they lived in the damned stone age.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:05, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah whatever. And I truly wasn't joking when I said you can post that Milos Obilic may have been an Albanian, I really won't edit you. Unlike you, if a reference is provided, even if I don't necessarily share the same opinion as the poster, as long as a reference has been provided, I'm not going to edit him.

Also heres a book that wasn't written too long ago and states that Skenderbeg was of Serbian extraction (a source I believe I haven't put up before). http://books.google.com/books?id=OEvWBG6Ct3YC&pg=PA47&dq=skanderbeg+servian&lr=&as_brr=3#v=onepage&q=&f=false

If you're really willing to accept any published source as infallible truth without reading it critically, then why should anybody listen to you? Anyways, your source doesn't correspond with reality. Why would a Serbian janissary have any motive to fight for a crusading Catholic Albanian state? Spandounes also made an error. He refers to Marin Barleti as his main source, but Barleti never says that Skanderbeg is a Serb. Furthermore, his "biography" of Skanderbeg is only one page long. Why should he be trusted over Demeter Franco or Marin Barleti, who wrote extensive biographies of the hero? Yeah, you're really trying to say Skanderbeg is Albanian. What's next? George Arianiti is Djuradj Arianitivic; Lekë Dukagjini is Lekovski Dukadjinivic; Serbians are the true heroes of the Western world while Albanians are jihadist Caucasian imports and the Albanian language is closely related to Chechnyan?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:11, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, yeah, everyone's wrong but you, you know everything, you are the father of knowledge, everyone that disagrees with you is wrong. Why would the son of a Serbian jannisary who led a Catholic Albanian state be buried in a Serbian Orthodox Monastery? Do you have concrete proof that Barleti never once mentioned Skanderbeg's possible Serb ancestry because this isn't the first time I have come across authors citing Barleti as their source for his Serbian ancestry. Anyways, we're talking about his possible Serbian ancestry from his mothers side, remember that.

When did I once even mention George Arianti or Leke Dukagjini? Or that "Serbs are the true heroes of the Western world" or that Albanians are related to Chechnyans? No honestly, find me where I said this and that this isn't just you insulting me.

Lol, serbia123. So a Catholic is buried in a Serbian monastery? lol? Sorry professor, I forgot that you teach Albanian studies at Cambridge University. Obviously, you know the primary sources very well! Anyways, I found where you said Albanians are Chechnyans: [3]. :D--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

You didn't answer any of my fucking post. You wanna stop fucking insulting me and cut to the fucking chase?

No, I really don't want to Professor, since they are not very insightful and blatantly misguided.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:12, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

In other words, you're out of arguments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 04:26, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

What do you think? I have a list written down somewhere? Besides, what arguments do you have other than some Serbian Orthodox monastery for Catholic Albanians and what you read on geocities about Marin Barleti?-Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:15, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I just gave you modern source citing Barleti as a reference to Skenderbeg's Serbian origin and all you did was insult me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.149.129.40 (talk) 18:32, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

LOL!--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 04:11, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Oooooh, good one! No actually, are you going to refute the source (and not with a garbage argument like "Barleti never said that" but then failing to provide evidence that he didn't say that)? Because if you're not, then there is no reason for me not to put it up (especially considering its "modern). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Serbia123 (talk • contribs) 00:51, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

scanderbeg

dont make big mistakes saying that scanderbeg was born in diber its not true scanderbeg was born in mati castles because he was a prince he was born in the castles of MATI region and not in dibra mountains so say his historians of his time barletius frangu and muzaka that kastrioti were from mati region so be serious when you write historical materials —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.26 (talk) 16:33, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 16:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

hundred best generals of the human history

The "Legacy" section says "Kastrioti has been classified as one of the hundred best generals of the human history", but the link points to the internet forum and some unofficial list made by an forum user. It has no real weight, and so should be deleted from the article. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:29, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 18:33, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

References of the article

• Regarding personal life they should be on the topic, Skanderbeg biography (there are many)
• Regarding its activity (diplomacy, wars, alliances) apart the above mentioned sources other books could be used (preferably detailed) Aigest (talk) 06:29, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Demetrio Franco gives a detailed account of Skanderbeg's career in the Ottoman Empire, but mainly talks about Skanderbeg's personal feats of bravery rather than his campaigns. For diplomacy and alliances, we can use his correspondences with his contemporaries (I have Kristo Frashëri's book translating many of Skanderbeg's letters). For wars, Franco gives detailed accounts of most of Skanderbeg's battles and spends a chapter discussing Skanderbeg's favored tactics. He chose exactly what Sun-Tzu would have recommended. :) --Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 22:28, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Gjergj Kastriot Sk. or Gjergj Kastrioti Sk.

I propose changing his name from Gjergj Kastriot Sk. to Gjergj Kastrioti Sk. His surname or family name was Kastrioti; Skënderbeu (Scanderbeg, Iskenderbey) was his nickname, given by the Turks. --Guildenrich 21:55, 5 October 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Guildenrich (talk • contribs)

Scanderbeg by Harry Hodgkinson

Reference: Scanderbeg by Harry Hodgkinson published in 1999 The center for Albanian studies

Albanians never tire of reminding themselves, produced an Alexander to subdue Asia : a Pyrrhus who crossed over Italy to fight the Romans ; a series of emperors ,Diocletian among them . who staved off the collapse of the Roman empire ; finally in Constandine the man who found the second and the more enduing Rome …

The language of Albanians ,which come down from pre –classical days ,is weighty evidence in favors of their claims .

Albanian these man of our times , like those who Scanderbeg led to war ,still carried on taboo against working in iron ,for instance ,which leads the imagination back to the time , tow and half millennia ago , when the new technique of iron smelting broke down the old heroic ,aristocratic bronze age society which Homer has made us familiar … —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.60.31.51 (talk) 12:17, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Protection, again

I've upped this to full protection because it's clear that this isn't solved yet. When I see new editors add vandalism edits to become auto-confirmed and overcome the semi-protection, there is a concern. You now have four weeks to sort this out, using the reliable sources noticeboard, dispute resolution, or in the last resort, a request for comment. Rodhullandemu 19:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

______________________________________________________________________________________

It is not question of reliable sources...

These books :

• The World's History: South-eastern and eastern Europe, By Hans Ferdinand Helmolt ([4])
• Chambers's encyclopaedia: a dictionary of universal knowledge, Volume 7 ([5])
• The Ottoman dynasty: a history of the sultans of Turkey from the earliest authentic record to the present time, with notes on the manners and customs of the people, by Alexander W. Hidden ([6])
• The International cyclopedia: a compendium of human knowledge, rev. with large additions, Volume 13, by Charles Francis Richardson, Selim Hobart Peabody ([7])
• The Book of History: Eastern Europe to the French revolution, by Viscount James Bryce Bryce, Holland Thompson, Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie ([8])
• The Standard American encyclopedia of arts, sciences, history, biography, geography, statistics, and general knowledge, by John Clark Ridpath ([9])
• ...

And these authors:

• Alexander W. Hidden
• Hans Ferdinand Helmolt (Already used as source in Wikipedia)
• Charles Francis Richardson (Already used as source in Wikipedia)
• Selim Hobart Peabody (Already used as source in Wikipedia)
• Robert Elsie (Already used as source in Wikipedia)
• Harry Thurston Pech
• Viscount James Bryce Bryce (Already used as source in Wikipedia)
• Holland Thompson
• Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie (Already used as source in Wikipedia)
• ...

Tell us that Voisava was Serbian princess. What can be problem with that information, after all those above?

--Tadija (talk) 17:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Your responsibility here is to persuade other editors that these sources satisfy your proposition. That is not a matter for me, but I have outlined above various options for taking this issue forward. Rodhullandemu 17:46, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Just a quick question: Is it okay for me to state my position as to why I don't consider these sources to be reliable on the reliable sources noticeboard?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

My opinion is that this is a long-term tendentious topic, with editors being strongly polarised, and most external editors would not have sufficient topical expertise to properly judge the various sources being cited. However, when multiple sources differ, it can be inappropriate to make a selection on the basis of one's personal point of view- a responsible and encyclopedic approach would be to summarise the sources on both sides, leave the matter unresolved, as are many historical questions, and leave it up to the reader to make up their own minds. It seems to me to be an issue of national identity and possession, which by the 21st century, should be supremely irrelevant. That is why I make no comment on the debate itself, or the sources cited, and I am not going to go there. There are multiple remedies here for dispute resolution, but they haven't been used by either side of this debate; rather, it seems to have been a waiting game, and in some cases somewhat underhand, in order to push a point of view. Such stealth tactics will not prevail as long as I'm alive, so in reality, you've got a few months to play such games. Meanwhile, editors either talk constructively, or this article remains locked. If necessary, I will keep it locked while an WP:RFC proceeds. Gaius Claudius Nero, the short answer to your question is that you may do that, but that apparently would be unlikely to satisfy your opponents. Rodhullandemu 00:07, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

With total honesty, i think that these sources rejection was just question of national possession and identity, as i really cannot see how can this much sources be unreliable. After all these years, it is pointless to ask that question, if we all know that sources are true. Gaius Claudius Nero, i am ready to see your explanation, as that you write to me on your talk page was not explanation at as, it was just asking not to add that data. Also, i would love to see sources where i can see that Skanderbeg mother was not Serbian princess, so that will help also. And even more, these are just some of the sources. Will all sources with that one sentence, "Servian princess" be rejected in the future? After all, i am ready to cooperate! :) --Tadija (talk) 11:23, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Musachi claims that she is related to him (See compilation with Musachi's work here: [10]). Fan Noli interprets that Musachi says she is Albanian in his dissertation on Skanderbeg ([11]). Harry Hodgkinson agrees that that she is a Musachi (Can't find online source), but I'm not sure how reliable he is. But, if you are willing to cooperate, what do you propose doing?--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 23:18, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

He had a fancy helmet too.

But why anybody would want to walk around with a goat's skull on their head is beyond me. Anyway, would it be controversial to add one of these images to the article? The helmet is prominently displayed in the Neue Burg.  Sandstein  21:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know about controversy, but I prefer the first image, rotated off centre - it gives a better feel for the dimensions of the dead goat. Josh Parris 11:52, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't see what's controversial about it. Put one in if you want, preferably the first one. If you have an image of his sword as well, you can put it here: [12].--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 19:50, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer. I did so.  Sandstein  17:30, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

the truth about scanderbeg

who is responsible for this article ,should be serious to correct an obvious mistake,because by all documents ,scanderbeg was born in Mat in the castle of Stellush,dibra at the time was not the principality of scanderbeg,but moisi gole,mi was the prince of diber —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.106.109.67 (talk) 14:04, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing this up. It is true.  Fixed --sulmues (talk) 20:23, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

Irena Paleologina wife of Skanderbeg's son?

<s>See this edit ([13]). The user is trying to reference to Barleti, but I have no idea who this Irene is. Help! --sulmues (talk) 16:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC) I'll correct myself, that's what the source says. Referenced.--sulmues (talk) 22:30, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

New article on Gjon Kastrioti II, the son of Skanderbeg is warranted

Gotta work on that, but am I missing anything? Why isn't it done so far? I remember from history lessons that there was an insurrection in 1481 in Albania, led by Gjon Kastrioti, son of Skanderbeg. He went through Himare. --sulmues (talk) 23:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Origin

It seems that the bibliography somewhat disagrees about the origin of Skenderbeg. A new section should be introduced based on various sources like:

• [14]: Born about 1404, his family of Serbian origin.
• [15]: family of Kastriot, allegedly of Serbian origin.
• [16]: Skanderbeg, a most valiant man of Serbian origin.
• [17]: was of Serbian origin.
• [18]: Of Serbian origin and brought up as a Muslim.
• [19]: the national hero of the Albanians, was of Serbian origin.
• [20]: Greek hero Saknderbeg
• [21]:of Serbian-Greek-Albanian origin.

There are plenty of them mainly suggesting a Serbian origin. Suppose this needs to be added.Alexikoua (talk) 15:01, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The sources that you brought are not serious. They just throw there that he was of Serbian origin without fully referencing or investigating on the origin of Skanderbeg. Are you suggesting a Serbian or Greek origin of the Kastrioti family or of the Tripalda family (his mother's) because none of the sources that you brought specify that. The only source that according to you is suggesting that the Kastrioti family was of Serbian origin, cannot be seen, if clicked. --sulmues (talk) 15:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The second source says it clear 'family of Kastriot'. These sources are just a few that make this claim, and as far I see they meet wp:rs.Alexikoua (talk) 16:54, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I still cannot see that source. If I click on it, nothing appears, however I can see that the title is about architecture, so nothing that relates to a historian or biographer of noblety. Completely unreliable. --sulmues (talk) 17:13, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I have no doubt that there are also plenty of sources in Google Books describing his origin as Albanian as well. Perhaps all the various theories could be discussed in the "Early life and family" section. They could also be mentioned in the Kastrioti article.--Ptolion (talk) 17:38, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello, I am interested in this subject and have been wanting to discuss some issues about it. Given this opportunity I'll reply to the sources presented. Before reviewing them I read the link about reliability of sources, which was presented by co-editor Alexikoua. This is my review:

• [22] I honestly find it at least strange to use the book of a scholar specializing in (postage) stamps(Paul G. Partington) used to as a source for a person's origin. According to this link presented by Alexikoua wp:rs, this person should not be used as a source in this issue as he isn't a historian.

• [23]I can't really read the footnote because this is just a snippet view and the use of the word allegedly makes it a hypothesis.

• [24] Although this was published in 2008, it wasn't written in the same period. This book was written by Theodore Spandounes(or Spandouginos), Byzantine who lived in the 15 and early 16th century. As such according to wp:rs you presented Alexikoua this cannot be used as a source. The book itself was written in 1519 as you can see. [25].

• [26]This is the 1954 edition of Encyclopædia Britannica, which is contradicted by the modern edition of Britannica. To be taken in consideration is also the fact that the main source for the 1954 edition is

Karađorđe Petrović(mentioned as George Petrovich), making it even more unrealiable.

• [http://books.google.com/books?id=zHxsWspxGIIC&pg=PA420&dq=skanderbeg%2Bserbian

%2Borigin&lr=&as_brr=0&hl=el&cd=7#v=onepage&q=skanderbeg%2Bserbian%2Borigin&f=false].If you read the summary of the book, you'll see that the book is a shortened version of the Encyclopedia of Islam. The Encyclopedia of Islam is not what anyone would call a reliable source.

• [27]. That's a book from 1912, meaning not modern, meaning not reliable.

• [28]The author quotes a line from a fictitious story as he states before quoting it. You should check what you post, Alexikoua.

• [29]. This is not written by a historian and its subject isn't Skanderbeg's origin and because of that the author just states what you quoted.

Therefore for now, this discussion is over since I checked all the sources and I don't think that anyone can disagree with my input which was 100% according to the guidelines. Thank you for your time,----ObserverFromAbove (talk) 20:30, 26 February 2010 (UTC) 17:55, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

That's my point: to mention all these theories in one section, I'm not the one to judge every author.Alexikoua (talk) 18:27, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Nope, they should not be mentioned because they are wp:fringe theories per above explanations. --sulmues (talk) 18:46, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The present sources aren't suitable for use in the article as I explained in my previous post, but in the future if reliable sources are presented we can rediscuss this.--ObserverFromAbove (talk) 23:53, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

No wonder User:ObserverFromAbove completely misused the rules here, suppose it's because he was a newcomer. Anyway, since the entire bibliography (there are additional 20 wp:rs in googlebooks) confirms this fact, I will make the appropriate adjustments the next hours creating a new section. Any advice by a user that edits from a non-blocked proxy is appreciated.Alexikoua (talk) 15:45, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Since now I am a member of the Albania Taskforce I should express my opinion. His observations seem accurate and as Sulmues has pointed out you still haven't brought anything reliable. If you make any changes I will revert you. My additions were reverted by some users previously and I respected it, you should do the same thing since you have no sources.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 16:09, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The more I read this discussion the more I think that Observer was completely accurate. There is no need to analyze all your sources as they have already been analyzed so I'll comment on just one of them. [30] a quotation like Observer pointed out says:

• wrote his fictitious story the Rise of Iskander, about "the Greek hero Skanderbeg who fought the Turkish peril". However, not all British writers were anti-Turkish in the era of colonial crusade. That's funny because you want to write a whole section based on quotes from fictitious stories.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 16:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

For example comments like 'The Encyclopedia of Islam is not what anyone would call a reliable source.' are completely nonsense by ObserverFromNowhere, you need to read wp:rs, off course the Encyclopedia of Islam is wp:rs. Also read wp:what wikipedia is, threating someone that 'I'll revert you no matter the entire universe is against me', is disruptive. This is not a battleground promoting a nationalistic agenda. Alexikoua (talk) 16:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Since you admit that you looked only one source but you declare you are revert-read what can I assume?Alexikoua (talk) 16:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Why are you assuming things I never said? I said that I would comment on just one, not that I didn't check the rest.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 16:35, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Please answer to my comment before jumping to conclusions. Why do you want to use a quotation from a fictitious story as a source in an encyclopedic article?--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 16:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Since you dont like this one, why dont you read the rest of the bibliography? There is plenty of bibliography to read. Suppose, being a representative of TF Albania, isn't an argument itself to justify blind reverts.Alexikoua (talk) 17:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Look, there are thousands of tertiary sources to claim that he was Albanian, you tried with the Greek and the Serbian origin and did not succeed, what's next: Bulgarian? --sulmues (talk) 18:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Skanderbeg origin

Actually it seems that there is plenty of additional material:

• [[31]] This force was led by John Kastrioti, who was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin and whose son, Skenderbeg, was venerated by Albanians as the founder of their
• [[32]] Fourth, nor were they connected with the Albanian hero Skenderbeg, though Skenderbeg did have Serbian blood.
• [[33]] the Albanian national hero Skenderbeg is said to have been "semi-Serb"
• [[34]] Skenderbeg, the great Albanian medieval leader and hero, was of Serbian origin
• [[35]] myths about historical figures such as Skenderbeg who were actually Serbs
• [[36]] He was the fourth son of John Kastrioti (Castriota), a high official of Serbian origin, and his given name was George.Alexikoua (talk) 17:55, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Myths are not sources, quotations from textbooks of the 1910s are not sources, "is said" and similar versions again are not sources.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 18:03, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

It would be interesting to hear a neutral opinion on this. Not just national advocating.Alexikoua (talk) 18:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Personal attacks get us nowhere so please stop labeling users who don't agree with you. I commented on the sources and that is what the sources say not me. You yourself posted that your sources are myths, rumors etc.--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 19:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I ask for a neutral opinion. If you find this a personal attack that's not my problem.Alexikoua (talk) 19:42, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I was commenting on you labeling other comments not similar to yours as "national advocating".--ZjarriRrethues (talk) 19:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua after you didn't get tired making a Greek out of Skanderbeg you are trying to make him Serbian because of the name of his mother. I have discussed this ad nauseam: She was from the Polog valley and her last name was Tripalda, an Albanian name. Back then the use of Slavic last names "Vojsava" was very common. Serbian and Albanian chieftains were very often intermarried. Vojsava Tripalda was Albanian though, I really challenge you to give me a decent source that seriously claims that Vojsava was Serbian. --sulmues (talk) 20:54, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

On this page you have more then 10 "decent" sources that claim she is Serbian. And also, very good sources that claim she is NOT Albanian. --Tadija (talk) 23:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

We're not looking for sources that you find "decent" but sources that are reliable according to the policy and such haven't been presented yet unless you think that myths and "is said" or textbooks of the 1910s are reliable sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 06:49, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

People, please! For Wikipedia, it does not matter if she was Albanian or Serbian. But the fact is that some Serbian authors claim her Serbian origin, and it should be mentioned in the article.--Mladifilozof (talk) 13:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

As nothing was added i taged article. It must be mentioned all of this. There are too many sources. --Tadija^speaks 19:51, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, there is no serious scholar that would say that the Kastrioti were not Albanians. As far as Vojsava Tripalda is concerned we have some sources that say Servian princess. However, these sources do not elaborate too much about her. As a matter of fact we have almost nothing on her account. The areas of the Pollog valley (today's Tetovo, and then between the Kingdom of Prilep and the Realm of Branković) were under the dominance of Serbian and Bulgarian rulers, although the majority of the population was Albanian, and there were also Albanian princes. We don't know if the Tripalda family was Albanian or not. It's just a speculation of a historian who looks at the Pollog map and finds out that a Serbian ruler is ruling there. I removed POV from Tadija because I believe that the wording should be very careful and should relate exclusively to Vojsava Tripalda. I suggest that a note of this nature be entered: Some authors think that Vojsava Tripalda may have been of Serbian origin, whereas others think that she was from an Albanian family. Noli states that she is an Albanian, Marin Barleti, Frang Bardhi, and Becikemi idem, and they are the main biographers. And don't tell me that they were primary sources because they spanned two centuries after Skanderbeg and everybody else relied on them. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 13:58, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Do not remove tags. That is vandalism. OK, what is your proposition for that info? Type it below. And AFTER we agree, tag will be removed. Until then, it is disputed. :) --Tadija^speaks 14:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you please read before you blindly revert? I said you CAN mention it, but with the due care. And I also proposed the wording. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:06, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

? What else? Where you should add that? What more? What about Skanderbeg origin? Explain better, please, dear Sulmues! :)-Tadija^speaks 14:16, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Right after this sentence His mother was Vojsava, a princess from the Tribalda family, (who came from the Pollog valley, north-western part of present-day Republic of Macedonia), or from the old noble Muzaka (Musachi) family. You may enter the following Some authors think that Skanderbeg's mother was of Servian {{cn}} or Bulgarian origin{{cn}}. Be bold and go ahead and edit, and remove the POV sign. After you are done with it, if you feel like you should give an explanation on your edit, bring it to the talk page. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 14:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

This is already explained and supported with an enless bibliography. Suppose it's time to see it on the article.Alexikoua (talk) 16:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately all the sources that Tadija entered are unacceptable. He managed to enter two outdated tertiary sources (Chambers and Britannica), one outdated secondary source (Stevenson) through a snippet and no context, and a secondary source (Spandounes) who again points back to Barleti (who of course presents Skanderbeg as an Albanian.

• 1. Chambers's encyclopædia: Tertiary source, moreover from 1889.
• 2. Encyclopedia britanica: Tertiary source, moreover from 1954 and relying on highly POV source of George Petrovitch
• 3. Francis Stevenson: Publication of 1912? Ridiculous: not a contemporary scholar. Furthermore the book is entitled "History of Montenegro". Highly unreliable and snippet abuse. All he says is again "Serbian origin".
• 4. Helmolt: 1901. Old and again not reliable. Albania didn't even exist at that time.
• 5. Theodore Spandounes: Although secondary source and contemporaneous (1997), it is highly unreliable because all he says about Skanderbeg is "Serbian origin". That's it. For the rest he points back to Marin Barleti, who wrote the biography 4 centuries before him and much better. Then let's go back to Barleti and if we find that Skanderbeg is of Serbian origin per Barleti, let's say it. For that matter few of us have read Barleti in latin.

As a result, we have no reliable sources to present Skanderbeg as of Serbian origin. Unless you give me a secondary source that goes into detail and presents some more reliable facts, I can't accept this version and I am going to have to revert. I thought Tadija had anything more than the sources that were brought already by Alexikoua. Those sources we already analyzed them and they are unreliable. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 21:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I am sanctioned to give another 50 words of justification to any revert until the end of June so here it goes. Besides what I stated above, here are my thoughts: I have nothing contrary to the citation of a contemporary author that has done a serious study on Vojsava Tripalda and doesn't blindly repeat that she was from Serbian origin. The only contemporary scholar that we have to claim that Voisava Tripalda was from Serbian origin is Spandounes, who says only that, and then he points to the biography of Marin Barleti. Now Barleti doesn't say that she was Serbian, but Albanian, so Spandounes contradicts himself. If we really want to give some references to Skanderbeg that are sour, let's start with Oliver Jens Schmitt who really has made a bad biography of the national hero of the Albanians. Schmitt is a voice out of the choir and I would love if someone brings to the table what he says, because I want to see if he is fringe or serious.--_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 21:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Agree per Tadija: we have an entire 16 (at least) book bibliopgraphy that mentions Skanderbeg's origins, some example: Theodore Spandounes, Britanica and Chambers's. Tertiaries are ok since we have plenty of secondaries too (see wp:rs). Additional credible sources are the Balkan Research Institute [[37]], Mitja Velikonja and William Safran [[38]]. Just being revert ready in order to 'defend' the origin of a personality is simply disruptive.Alexikoua (talk) 22:32, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

As I see Safran (2000) is a nice source and we will have no problem to place this alone in the origins section [[39]] ...This force was led by John Kastrioti, who was of mixed Albanian-Serbian origin and whose son, Skenderbeg, was venerated by...Alexikoua (talk) 23:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Also this: [[40]] Can Serbs and Albanians live together? P Hondus - Western Balkans Security Observer-English Edition, 2007 - CEEOL: "...On the other hand, Skenderbeg, the legendary Albanian hero, is seemingly of an ethnically mixed background, with his mother reportedly being a Serb."

many of these sources arent that good theyre tertiary sources that repeat what has been written elsewhere..there has been since hopf (the editor of the relevant 'chronicles') at least some talk of the possibility of skanderbeg being half via his mother or even entirely slav based on spandouginos and the slavic names from what i know but what else..? sulmues above has summarized this position well which i think has been abandoned even if seriously considered once by some historians87.202.22.2 (talk) 07:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

We should be very careful with old sources, Skanderbeg main biographer was Marin Barleti. Although its battle numbers are exaggerated and sometimes he puts very long speeches in Herodotus style, I want to point out that basically all the other historians have repeated the same things. Barlet main stories are confirmed by archives of Venetians, Naples, Rome, Ragusa, Ottoman chronicles etc. Other important source is the chronicle of Muzaka, which has also been confirmed by archives and historians. There are many later speculations on various topics for eg. that Kastoria name comes from Kastrioti etc, but now they are all like urban legends and should be treated as such. Aigest (talk) 08:53, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Facts about origin

OK, this section is below.

His mother was Vojsava Tripalda, a princess from the Tripalda family, (who came from the Pollog valley, north-western part of present-day Republic of Macedonia), or from the old noble Muzaka (Musachi) family. There are sources that claim that Voisava was of Serbian origin, and by mother, Skanderbeg also.

References

---

Alexikoua, please, which sources should i add, and where? As all of those are ok, so we just need more. That will not be problem, with so many of those... --Tadija^speaks 17:29, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

The main text is ok, about the source: #1,2&3 are outdated and need to go (they aren't necessary) #4 is ok, #5 needs to go (better to use historians only). #6&7 are outdated and need to be replaced with this:

Can Serbs And Albanians Live Together? by Patrick Hondus. Western Balkans Security Observer English. Issue: 4 / 2007, pages: 412, on www.ceeol.com (p. 5: Skenderbeg, the legendary Albanian hero, is seemingly of an ethnically mixed background, with his mother reportedly being a Serb. One of his sons married Jerina, the daughter of Serbian despot Lazar Brankovic.) which meets all the wp:rs criteria. Moreover, source #7,9 are outdated, #8 is just fine and enough.Alexikoua (talk) 20:32, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think these very old sources fulfill WP:RS.

1. As for Britannica, tertiary which keeps repeating the old history of Branilo Kastriot look here for original text explained by Jorga first and later by Noli. I am putting it here: The signatures in Slavic are as follows: "Prodan vojevoda i Mikleus, kefalia vavlonski Branilo i kefalia kaninski Kastriot.." In Latin: "Prodan vojvoda et Mikleus, castellanus Aulonae Branilo et castellanus Caninae Kastriot.." I believe Tadija understands the slavic version while latin I believe is clear to us all. Two conclusions from the text. 1. Branilo and Kastrioti are two different persons. 2. There is nothing that links Skanderbeg family with that Kastrioti of Kanina. see here again Ducellier This wrong interpretation of passage keeps coming and coming again by Serb historians and is becoming very boring. That's why sources should be chosen carefully, and those who are more detailed should be used.
2. As for Stevenson 1912, see mine and sulmues argumentation above
3. same for Spondanus very old and very short the same argumentation. He speaks more of how Skanderbeg could cut to pieces on ox and clearly directs the interested readers to the work of Barletius (shouldn't we follow his advice?)
4. 1889 and 1907 encyclopedias?! Guys at least smth more recent and more detailed.

It is a fortune that we have Skanderbeg's biographies and we should use them for Skanderbeg article, not just short passages from old or very very old authors (some of them dead wrong) which have written for other things and just happened to mention Skanderbeg. No references, no argumentation, just plain short passages .. Really they are not interested on the topic itself and they can not be called specialists on this specific issue. Aigest (talk) 18:39, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Britanica reference is outdated and wrong since it is pointing to the same old meme of Branilo and Kastriot, discredited before (Jorga, Noli 1947) and later (Ducellier 1987) by historians. You might want to use a later Britannica version, but per WP:RS "Tertiary sources such as compendia, encyclopedias, textbooks, and other summarizing sources may be used to give overviews or summaries, but should not be used in place of secondary sources for detailed discussion" and this is a detailed discussion, moreover later versions of Britannica don't support that view anymore, so it can't be used as a reference.

As for Patrick Hondus, I notice that first ..this guy is practically unknown in academic world, two ...his claim has no reference and three his book is not on topic, Skanderbeg is merely stated once through all his article. If all Skanderbeg biographers maintain that he was Albanian, surely an extraordinary claim like that should be based on extraordinary references not an unreferenced mere sentence of a practically unknown author.

I want also to bring out what Skanderbeg thought of himself since this pertain to this issue. Skanderbeg words in the letter he writes to Prince of Tarant before his expedition in Italy in 1462:

...Moreover, you scorned our people, and compared the Albanese to sheep, and according to your custom think of us with insults. Nor have you shown yourself to have any knowledge of my race. My elders were from Epirus, where this Pirro came from, whose force could scarcely support the Romans. This Pirro, who Taranto and many other places of Italy held back with armies. I do not have to speak for the Epiroti. They are very much stronger men than your Tarantini, a species of wet men who are born only to fish. If you want to say that Albania is part of Macedonia I would concede that a lot more of our ancestors were nobles who went as far as India under Alexander the Great and defeated all those peoples with incredible difficulty. From those men come these who you called sheep. But the nature of things is not changed. Why do your men run away in the faces of sheep?.. Croia 31 October 1460 see letter referenced in note 83 here

He is describing himself as Albanian. The same argument is used first by Noli in 1947 and by later historians. The letter is in Naples archive, you may find a latin version of it in internet and it is cited in Barletius work.

P.S. Epirotes was the term used for Albanians in that period and Albanians of that period believed they derived from Epirotes, curiously enough they didn't call themselves Illyrians:). Even Skanderbeg in Barletius book is called Epirotarum Principis Aigest (talk) 21:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

All of that you say, Aigest, is quite nice and cool, but not really related to this question. There are 10000 other sources, so i will use other. So, Alexikoua, this?

---

His mother was Vojsava Tripalda, a princess from the Tripalda family, (who came from the Pollog valley, north-western part of present-day Republic of Macedonia), or from the old noble Muzaka (Musachi) family. There are numerous sources that claim that Voisava was of Serbian origin, and by mother, Skanderbeg also.

References

---

--Tadija^speaks 00:54, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

It's fine, text ok and sources meet wp:rs. I suggest we ask also to rfc.Alexikoua (talk) 09:00, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

A question. Who is Patrick Hondus and how it can be relevant to Skanderbeg issue? Do you notice that he does not bring any reference for his claim? It's not fine in any way, sources do not meet WP:RS, as I have explained above. Later versions of Britannica don't support 1954 edition. Are you sure to call 1954 edition WP:RS when this is not supported by later editions of Britannica?! There are his biographers and they should be used for details like that. Aigest (talk) 09:44, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

What? :)) First, Britannica is not used any more, so doesn't matter. And second, sentence is:

There are sources that claim...

so no problems found. His biographers are used also. NPOV, Aigest. We must mention and see all sides of the cake! :)))

Cake

--Tadija^speaks 12:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Tadija, Britannica is still in use (see Encyclopedia_britannica#Fifth_era) and we shouldn't go after editions of more than 50 years ago, when the articles in Britannica have already changed many times. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 16:48, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Guys, you made me curious. Who is Patrick Hondus? Aigest (talk) 08:22, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

[[41]]...a London-based independent researcher.Alexikoua (talk) 09:45, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

I had arrived up to that point since the first article link. I was curious because i found nothing about him over internet. Apparently he is a researcher (not well known though, the only ref I could find for him was about his article "Can Serbs And Albanians Live Together" )Is he a historian, sociologist, economist, journalist (whatever), has he other publications and how is he related to Balkan history? Aigest (talk) 13:07, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Patrick Hondus may not qualify as RS. All he says is "Skanderbeg is many times reported as of Serbian origin by his mother side". He is not a historian, at least not a middle ages historian. He is repeating the fringe story that Voisava was of Serbian ancestry, incorrectly reported by encyclopedias in the past. Btw, I still see in the same sentence that two encyclopedias are cited. While tertiary sources may be used in Wikipedia, this use has to be done for broad summaries and if there is a good support by secondary sources. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 15:09, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

As you always disagree, maybe we should ask for rfc. As i told you, there are numerous other sources, so this one can be one of the many. And, once again, There are sources that claim... Until other sources are there, no problems.

And, why is it incorrectly reported by encyclopedias in the past? By which source you claim that? All we do here is NPOV search, and instead trying to minimize all sources we have here, you should try to help by introducing new ones that will cite those claims, and will be better then Hondus. It is fact that many sources tell us that Skanderbeg was of Serbian origin, so we should just find best possible source for that, instead using many others. I hope we all agree with that? :) --Tadija^speaks 15:57, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

"As i told you, there are numerous other sources, so this one can be one of the many."

• Then you should bring them to the table. Just make sure to be credible ones. Cheers. kedadial 16:06, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

Tadija you can't use any of these citations because they are either outdated or unreliable tertiary sources and if WP:RS shouldn't be ignored repeatedly by experienced users. You all are familiar with the policy so don't abuse it otherwise admin intervention will be needed. Sulmues and many others have refuted these sources many times so recycling them repeatedly is considered tendentious.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 10:12, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Islamic desk reference By E. J. van Donzel brought as reference is full of controversies in all its claims.

1. Stating that he Skanderbeg became an Ottoman vasal in 1460. -> None of his biographers confirms this on the contrary. Moreover during that time he was the captain general of the Curia (Papal forces)
2. He was a loyal local governor after 1436?->Actually he was no governor by a commander in Turkish army.
3. His resistance ended in 1466. -> No, he died in 1468 and he continued to fight up to that date.
4. Mehmed conquered Albania in 1466 -> actually Mehmed forces were defeated by Skanderbeg forces in 1466 and 1467. Moreover Kruja was captured in 1478 and Shkodra in 1479 and that is generally accepted as the final conquer of Albania by Turkish forces.

I have left aside the claim on the origin but practically all the other claims on Skanderbeg are wrong so I don't find it RS especially in such delicate details. While for Encyclopedia Americana I can not state my detailed opinion since I see only snippets, but I stay to my general opinion expressed above about the use of tertiary sources in this topic as long as we have its biographers. Aigest (talk) 10:41, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, i really cannot see any problem here, except national claims problem, that should not be a problem in civilized world. He will not be less Albanian hero, and great leader with Serbian mother.

There are sources that claim...

We have sources, and it is quite bad to minimize those. Marin Barleti, 1508 is WAAAy more outdated then all my other ones. So we should remove that also? Pointless. His mother was Serbian, so he was half Serb, that is fact. Anyway, Aigest, you twisted the source very, very much. None of those sentences you wrote above are in the source, which is valid, and regular. That is something like forgery you did. There is nothing wrong with those sources, and as i dont trust you guys anymore (sorry), i will ask for rfc. This article is {{POV}} tagged again. Don't remove tag until dispute is over. --Tadija^speaks 14:43, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

It is not a good thing to accuse others of forgery and you should apologize for your statement. All the claims from Islamic desk reference I stated above, are on the reference Tadija brought here. I was giving my opinion on the sources Tadija brought and my opinions are based on the references that are used in the article. His earlier biographers (Barletius, Muzaka) and later ones (Noli , Hodgkinson) do not say what you keep claiming here. Aigest (talk) 17:31, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

No, they are not. For example, only one.

"His resistance ended in 1466." - Non existent sentence, REAL sentence is "...he resumed his guerrilla warfare until Ottoman sultan Mehemmed II started to conquer Albania in 1466." This DOESN'T mean that his resistance ended that year, it means that sultan started to conquer that land in 1466, and that was most important thing in that moment. Dont translate source from English to English. --Tadija^speaks 16:12, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

As per my knowledge of English, If someone says "one resisted until 1466", it means " his resistance ended in 1466". Check the English dictionary plz Aigest (talk) 20:32, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I see that Alexikoua reverted me. My opinion is that since Tadija (and for that matter Alexikoua) don't have anything to say, but "we disagree", the tag needs to go, unless who disagrees with it brings it to RfC from someone outside of the Balkans. Here Tadija is beating a dead horse and we can't wait until he brings the matter to RfC. I will wait a little more and if he still doesn't bring the claimed POV in RfC, I'll remove the tag. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 20:41, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Since there is a long discussion, I suggest to wait a couple of days. No need to remove the tag too soon. On the meantime I'll check the additional bibliography. Sulmues: I suggest we remove the tag on Friday night.Alexikoua (talk) 20:58, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I didn't have time to rfc, so i suppose you can wait a bit. Or you can propose here something constructive, instead just removing everything that is not your POV. Until we add facts from above, tag will be here. What is your version of new sentence about origin? --Tadija^speaks 21:15, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with Alexi that if by Friday someone hasn't brought the question to RfC, tag goes. Tadija, if you put a tag and then there is a discussion and nothing comes out of it, you request an RfC, but you have to state a time by when you'll do that, otherwise we can't be waiting till you make up your mind to take action. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 21:26, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

apart from my agreement with the albanian editors here more or less...what needs to be perhaps addressed more explicitly is the 'per natione/origine Serviano' mention of spandouginos and the vojsava triballian connection (was it a family name or an ethnic name in the sense triballian = slav of some kind..? ive seen both opinions)..if anything because such things (among others..) convinced hopf and even jirecek (if im not mistaken about the latter)87.202.18.117 (talk) 01:59, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Spandouginos pretty much says "Servian princess: for more refer to Barleti", while Barleti never says that she was Serbian. If you are referring to the fact that the Tripalda last name might have any connection to the Thracian tribe of the Triballi, I believe that is far fetched and there are no sources to make that connection, however interesting and appealing it may sound. --_Sulmues ^{Let's talk} 18:53, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

no no im referring to spandouginos description of **skanderbeg** as of 'Servian' nature/origin..as for the triballian=slav connection see william miller here eg http://www.jstor.org/pss/554790 im not saying that spandouginos' reference or the interpretation of vojsava as a 'triballian' hold any water necessarily but since there are knowledgeable people involved here they might be addressed somehow..87.202.54.152 (talk) 21:19, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Alexikoua is again recycling sources that have been refuted to make pointy edits. For example the Islamic desk reference and the research center for Islamic history are unreliable. The Encyclopedia Americana snippet isn't a 2000 reference but the republication of the 1911 version. A source is a journal of the 15th century(Theodore Spandounes), while another one is from 1932 both are outdated and not WP:RS. Some of the sources brought repeat a theory started by the House of Karađorđević as part of a future assimilation process of the northern highlands of Albania that someone named Branilo was Gjon Kastrioti's ancestor, although there no historical data and sources about that. Books about postage stamps when regarding history subjects aren't RS. Banac and Trbovich for obvious conflict of interest can't be considered RS. Aigest/ObserverFromAbove/Sulmues have refuted the arguments with lengthy posts, so I just summarized as much as possible their opinions.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 13:00, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

All of this sources can be RS. We already know what you POV is, Zjarri, this is for someone else, not participants from above. --Tadija^speaks 13:46, 9 July 2010 (UTC)

RfC: Should we mention Skanderbeg's possible Serbian origin in origins section?

The question is if we need to mention this posibility in the 'Early life and family' section. There is a huge bibliography that mentions this or the half Serbian origin of Skanderbeg:

1. Can Serbs And Albanians Live Together? by Patrick Hondus. Western Balkans Security Observer English. Issue: 4 / 2007, p. 5.
2. Theodōros Spandouginos, Donald MacGillivray Nicol. Theodore Spandounes: On the origin of the Ottoman emperors, Cambridge University Press, 1997. ISBN 9780521585101, p. 47.
3. William Safran. Identity and territorial autonomy in plural societies. Routledge, 2000. ISBN 9780714650272, p. 175.
4. Ottoman architecture in Albania, 1385-1912. Research Centre for Islamic History, Art and Culture, 1990. ISBN 9789290633303, p. 173.

And the tertiary sources:

1. E. J. van Donzel. Islamic desk reference. BRILL, 1994. ISBN 9789004097384, p. 420.
2. The Encyclopedia Americana. Grolier, 2001, ISBN 9780717201341, p. 878.

There is also additional bibliography that mentions this possibility/fact ([[42]], [[43]], [[44]], [[45]], [[46]], [[47]]) but I believe the above sources are enough. Comments by involved parties are found one section above.Alexikoua (talk) 05:58, 9 July 2010 (UTC)