Talk:Pantomime

Discussion

I find this hard to believe and substantiate. My guess is that some celebrities perform UK pantomime, which we'd like to accentuate. But I think "often" is incorrect. --ESP 01:19, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No, you have the wrong end of the stick. It is not that some UK celebrities often perform pantomime -- in fact, making a habit of appearing in pantomime is a sure way to attract jokes about the state of one's career -- but that many UK celebrities have performed pantomime at some time. The given example of Ian McKellen appearing as Widow Twankey is the first time McKellen has done panto, and may well be the last; but is far from the first time some celebrity has appeared as Widow Twankey. If it helps, think of it as being like cameo appearances. --Paul A 08:04, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

To be fair, though, Ian McKellen is a distinct anomaly; pantomime "celebrities" are usually distinctly second-rate. --Paul A 08:23, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

==Other meanings apart from panto==nb,ub; The first part of this article should be at the end IMO. Who calls mime pantomime? Perhaps it's because i'm from the UK but pantomime only meants "oh yes he his! oh no he isn't!" type theatre. I think that this should go at the top of the article (and be greatly expanded) and other meanings of the word should go at the bottom as an afterthought. Or perhaps a disambiguation link this article is about comical childrens traditional theatre in the UK. For other meanings of pantomime see mime or some such thing. Thoughts anyone?

pantomimes is not the same as a mime

• Maybe to you it isn't. Have you ever wondered what these words really mean and where they come from? I am very dissapointed to see that the greek word "pantomima" (and "pantomimos") is not acknoledges anywhere in this text!! I can see that over the years the word has aquired a separate meaning in the UK and some other countries. In Greece, the word "pantomime" (and Greek is where the word originates from) is "a story told without words through gestures and movements". Wikepedia should at least include all definitions of the word!

pantomimes is not the same as a mime

• I agree. This shouldnt confuse mime and pantomime. --Joshtek 00:46, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)
• Yes, we should have primary disambiguation here. Haukur 22:41, 7 March 2006 (UTC)
• "Perhaps it's because i'm from the UK..." you say. Yes, in fact, it is because you're from the UK. In the US "pantomime" means mime and mime only. See List of words having different meanings in British and American English. -Stellmach 22:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
• "In the US "pantomime" means mime and mime only." By the dictionary, maybe so; but most Americans simply do not know the word pantomime. If they want to talk about mime they use the word 'mime' same as they do in Britain. I would go so far as to say most Americans who know the word pantomime are Anglophiles who know it to have the British meaning. Dyaimz 13:48, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I complete disagee with the above. The word "pantomime" is well known in the U.S. In fact I came to this page looking for an article on pantomime in the American sense. I was unaware that the Brits used the word differently. I also think that pantomime and mime are generally used in slightly different context here in the U.S. Generally when Americans refer to mime they are refering specifically to white faced street performers where as pantomime is often used in a more general sense.

• From the above debate, its pretty simple to conclude that (according to which state you come from) mime and pantomime can mean the same thing - please! Looking up the meaning in Marion Webster, the difference between Mime and Pantomime is music - both have a comedic element. In the wider context (we may use American English, but Wiki addresses an international audience) mime is mime, and pantomime is a uniquely Anglophile comedy, which according to M-W online is: "a British theatrical entertainment of the Christmas season based on a nursery tale and featuring topical songs, tableaux, and dances". Rgds, - Trident13 06:54, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Is that really the only definition M-W gives? The dictionary's quoted at dictionary.com list all sorts of meanings.

In America, mime artists and other theatre professionals generally do distinguish between mime and pantomime, although, since there is not as much of a pantomime tradition in the US, "pantomime" is often also used as a synonym for "dumbshow", but even with this usage "pantomime" is something very different than work inspired by Decroux, Marceau, LeCoq, and Tomaszewski. The confused terminology is the usage of non-theatre professionals.IanThal 00:47, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I'm astonished to find that this is a disambiguation page. Surely 99.9% of those who look up "pantomime" will expect to find the article that is presently under "pantomime (theatre)", and therefore we should have the disambiguation page at "pantomime (disambiguation)". Deb 15:29, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

PANTOMIME:

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This pan·to·mime /ˈpæntəˌmaɪm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[pan-tuh-mahym] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -mimed, -mim·ing. –noun 1. the art or technique of conveying emotions, actions, feelings, etc., by gestures without speech. 2. a play or entertainment in which the performers express themselves mutely by gestures, often to the accompaniment of music. 3. significant gesture without speech. 4. an actor in dumb show, as in ancient Rome. 5. Also called Christmas pantomime. a form of theatrical spectacle common in England during the Christmas season, generally adapted from a fairy tale and including stock character types who perform songs and dances, tell jokes, etc. –verb (used with object) 6. to represent or express in pantomime. –verb (used without object) 7. to express oneself in pantomime. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.171.251.148 (talk) 18:05, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Which is irrelevant, really (though I'm not necessarily agreeing with Deb). The question is not what most English speakers will think of when they hear the word "pantomime", it's what most people who look the word up in an encyclopedia are looking for. Senses 1, 2, 3, and 4 are called "mime" in England; are they called "mime" in the US? Is it synonymous, and is it more common? If so, you can see that that would be a case where people wanting to look up the idea would go to Mime and not Pantomime, even if they would understand "pantomime" to mean "without speech". Marnanel (talk) 18:31, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge request: The British Pantomime→ Pantomime...

Yes, merge The British Pantomime into this article posthaste. It’s not only British but common to most English-speaking countries except the USA. And put a general definition of pantomime in the first paragraph so the Americans won’t get confused. —  AjaxSmack  02:40, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

I was surprised to read that it is considered common to English speaking countries. As an Australian, the first time I heard of Panto was when I moved to the UK, and I checked it out on Wikipedia, and saw the entry that it is common in Australia. I asked quite a few Australian friends if they knew what Pantomime was. Most thought either knew it as some 'English play' or thought it was a synonym for mime. Murphydog1 (talk) 22:21, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Merge. Both good pieces but no obvious purpose is served by keeping them separate. Tim riley 13:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Merge.

To avoid confusion, how about renaming the pantomime page to "Panto" (this word is never used by Americans to mean mime) and give a proper description at the top of the Panto page along with a link to a mime page.

British Pantomime + Pantomime -> Panto

The Pantomíme disambiguation page could then look something like this:

Pantomime: Panto, a musical comedy play usually performed around Christmastime (GB, IRL, ...) Mime, a theatrical performace without speaking Pantomime (album), debut album of Japanese rock band: the pillows; or a same named song in that album

• merge and add to this page so it takes a boarder world view, pantomime does mean mime (from the greek meaning 'all mime' or 'imitate' according to the conpendium companion to twentieth century theatre.) And is used as such in countries such as the usa, france and others. Also according to the book i mentioned earlier "in the caribbean, Jamaican pantomime developed its own form quite distinct from its British source" though that's all it says on the subject. Struds 20:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

York Theatre Royal

This section looks like advertising to me. Panto is still widely shown all over the UK without any influence from this York production as far as I know. If the article is to talk about particular pantos then I'd have thought the new 'posh panto' productions in London (with famous stage actors) would be worth mentioning. Ben Finn 20:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

I think what it's saying is that it took a different approach, by not casting celebrities. However as you say hasn't been (to my knowledge either) influenced. Suggest rewording, so it's less of an advert and more a statement that some companies have been successful at taking a non-celebrity approach. Agree that there should be a mention of 'posh pantos' Struds 23:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Request for more pantomime information

Under the section heading "Pantomime traditions and conventions," the article states that pantomime is "traditionally performed at Christmas, with family audiences consisting mainly of children and parents." But this doesn't explain who the performers are and who sponsors the project. Are pantos put on by organizations such as schools, church groups, or community theatre groups? Those of us who don't have exposure to English pantomime wouldn't know this information. Thanks. BellyOption 12:19, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes that's who puts them on. As do professional theatre companies. Just about anybody theatrical really. Unless they are really high-brow. They're a money-spinner. -- 68.147.195.106 (talk) 06:42, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Seconding the request for better overview of typical show

I'm guessing based on the article that a pantomime is a full-length comedy play with one or two musical numbers and a very specific set of conventions (lead boy, dame, etc.). But it's still a little hazy for this American. Details like typical length of show, authorship of scripts (public domain? are new ones commissioned?), and what's the tie-in to Christmas and New Years would help the uninitiated figure this out. Would you ever see a 'mime' (Marcel Marceau), or a magic act or juggler in a pantomime? Or is it basically a form of musical comedy with a continuous plot built on specific cliches? Are there professional/expensive pantomimes and amateur/cheap ones? Is it something you'd see in London/a big city, or only in the sticks? Neil H.

Answers... Typically a 2 hour show in two acts. Anybody can write a script (although they are generally but not invariably based on the standard subjects listed in the article) and new versions come out every year. Only tie in to Xmas/New Year is that it happens at that time of year to take advantage of the general merrymaking that goes on then. You wouldn't see a mime, magic act or juggling unless they had been written in for a laugh or to suit a celebrity appearing in that panto. It's a comic play with music and lots of audience involvement, built on stock plots and character types but it would be going too far to say that it uses cliched plots and characters -- bad pantos might, good ones don't. It's a bit like saying that My Fair Lady was built on the Pygmalion and Galatea cliche: sort of true but missing the point. Yes, there are expensive professional and cheap amateur ones (not to mention cheap professional and expensive amateur ones). You'll see them in London, big cities, small cities, big towns, small towns, big villages, small villages and in the sticks because they are very popular in both meanings of the word. -- Derek Ross | Talk 07:01, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus, page not moved. GrooveDog (talk) (Review) 02:55, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I see there's been some history with this article being moved quite often, but the current situation vis a vis Wikis in other languages is highly misleading. In many if not most languages, including American English, the word "Pantomime" refers to "mime" - not to the British Panto genre. This is what translators refer to as "false friends": words in different languages that look the same, but mean something different. Unfortunately, most of the interwiki links (which I have just removed, not for the first time) have linked to articles discussing mime. Few of the other language Wikis even have articles for the British pantomime! What happens is that the Wiki robots keep adding the wrong links, over and over, linking the English "pantomime" to "pantomime" in other languages, though in fact they are not at all the same. I also find it astonishing that there is no article for mime on the English Wikipedia: only for mime artist. Mime is such an important art form, and unlike the British Pantomime, shared by so many different cultures!

What I propose is as follows:

• That mime artist be moved to mime, and hopefully expanded to reflect other cultures
• That the article currently at pantomime be moved back to British Pantomime, and pantomime reinstated as a disambiguation page instead of pantomime (disambiguation), leading off to British Pantomime as well as to mime.

--woggly 11:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Since the Augustan pantomime is no closer to the British art form than to mime, it should probably be a third article. Accordingly, I have taken out the sentences on it here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. We don't rename pages because they may be ambiguous in other languages, this is the English Wikipedia; if a bot or an editor has added the wrong interwiki links, then they should be more careful about the page they're editing. This current page location is the most well-known use of the word in the English-speaking world, there's no reason to change that. Crazysuit 18:00, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Or in other words, what you're saying is, "the article as it currently stands reflects my use of the word 'pantomime', and if it causes other people confusion or misunderstandings, I don't see why I should care". Asides from those silly furriners, there are a lot of Americans who are unfamiliar with British Pantomime and for whom the word pantomime means mime - that's probably how it ended up on List of words having different meanings in British and American English. I'm open to hearing why the proposed new location might create new problems, but opposing a move on the basis of a flat denial that the current location is problematic strikes me as closeminded. --woggly 08:09, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
• Support. This is not a case for WP:ENGVAR; there is a real possibility of confusion, and there is no evidence that this usage is the primary one. For another example of such a rearrangment, see what happened at Athletics. Our naming conventions are not set up to mandate confusion, but rather, to prefer the simplest title that doesn't conflict with other meanings of the title in question. Dekimasuよ! 14:14, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

• • • Crazysuit writes: "This current page location is the most well-known use of the word in the English-speaking world". Well, it's not the main usage in the US, which has a lot more English speakers than Britain, Canada, and Australia combined. But I'm not sure what to do about this, frankly. MdArtLover 16:52, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Roman pantomime

The removed section is:

The performance of pantomime originates at its earliest in ancient Greece, but exploded in popularity during the reign of Augustus in ancient Rome. The name is taken from a single masked dancer called Pantomimus.

Earliest Cinderella 1870?

This Wikipedia article currently states that Cinderella, as a panto production, was "first shown in 1870 in Covent Garden, London". But the "CINDERELLA BIBLIOGRAPHY" by Russell A. Peck (available online from the University of Rochester library), under the heading "CINDERELLA PANTOMIME PRODUCTIONS", lists the first as being at London's Drury Lane Theatre in 1804. It's clear that he's writing about the pantomime genre properly speaking, not things that are really something else (like operas, for example). Here I quote him:

"[The first Cinderella Pantomime in England was the 1804 production at Drury Lane, dir. Mr. Byrne. See Cinderella Pantomime Scripts above for cast, synopsis, and details of the production. Most of the published scripts include casts of the first production of the particular text. I have not repeated such information here, though most published scripts reflect at least one initial production. This section of the bibliography includes performances whose scripts have not been published or are unknown to me. The information is taken mainly from theatre programs, newspaper reviews (especially from On Stage), and Alvin Marill's More Theatre: Stage to Screen to Television, cited above under The Pantomime Genre.]"

According to Peck, the music for this 1804 pantomime production was by Michael Kelly (1762-1826).

Peck's account of early panto Cinderella productions goes on to list New York (March 1808), New York again (August 1808), Philadelphia (1824), and Baltimore (1839). Should we change the article to reflect this source material?

http://www.lib.rochester.edu/CAMELOT/cinder/cin8.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by MarylandArtLover (talk • contribs) 10:42, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Definitely.--woggly 10:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Sorry I forgot to sign! MdArtLover 10:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, Peck lists as panto an 1839 piece by Michael Rophino Lacy called "Cinderella, or the Fairy-Queen and the Glass Slipper. A Comic Opera, In Three Acts. The Music by Rossini." This would appear to be a contradiction - if it's an opera, how can it be panto? But apparently Lacy cribbed music freely from various pre-existing Rossini operas and made a "pantomime opera" out of it: "Lacy's adaptation of Rossini became one of the most frequently reproduced of the pantomime operas, often used in the 19th century by British acting troups in America as well." [1]. I don't have time at the moment to integrate this info properly with the article while not messing up its structure. I offer this information for anyone else to use in revising the article as they may see fit. MdArtLover 11:08, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

By the way, Russell A. Peck is the John Hall Deane Professor of English at the University of Rochester. MdArtLover 11:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

New name suggestions

The suggested new name British Pantomime is somewhat unclear (and should be British pantomime).
Try Pantomime (by British English definition)? Anthony Appleyard 09:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Adverts

Please do not add adverts to wikipedia. Telling people about a forthcoming production is important. Getting the correct group for your ad is important. A Global wiki is not really the right forum. And besides they ruin an article. If you are keen on panto then improve this article... don't fly post it. Victuallers 13:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Possibly a follow on from this - what's this link to "Pantomime in Ukraine"??? Rob Burbidge (talk) 13:32, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Pantomime in India

This subsection, "Pantomime in India" should be moved to the article on "mime" which already makes some reference to mime in classical Indian dance-theatre, and where it more properly belongs.IanThal (talk) 14:41, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I agree. the section 'pantomime outside the UK' means 'productions of pantomime (in the British sense, which is the exclusive subject of the article) occurring outside the UK.' MdArtLover (talk) 01:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Definition

Any reason why this article doesn't actually have a definition of Pantomime beyond "a genre of theatre" in the introductory paragraph (per Wikipedia policy?) --189.148.30.150 (talk) 15:25, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia:Layout#First paragraph - "Normally, the opening paragraph summarizes the most important points of the article. It should clearly explain the subject so that the reader is prepared for the greater level of detail that follows.". This does not ask us to have a have a definition of the word. The goal of Wikipedia is to be like an encyclopedia not a dictionary. Still, if you feel you can improve the first paragraph you are welcome to try.R00m c (talk) 04:17, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Allusions?

Anybody want to put up a section of allusions in various "straight" literature and entertainment? I can think of the pantomime horses in a Monty Python episode, but there are probably more that I can't understand. 128.147.28.1 (talk) 15:29, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that might be interesting and valid. Another example is the comic character "Dame Edna" created and acted by Barry Humphries. Here's an excerpt from an interview with his authorized biographer and self-described "Humphriesologist", David Martin Bruson [2]:

MTR [interviewer]: "You've referred to Dame Edna as a 'pantomime dame.' What is that?"

DMB [David Martin Bruson; friend and authorized online biographer of Barry Humphries (Dame Edna)]: "The pantomime dame comes out of the British music hall (burlesque) tradition. The dame was usually a stocky man playing a woman of a certain age. The joke of the pantomime dame is the hefty man in women's clothing. Do you remember Gene Wilder's movie Haunted Honeymoon? The Dom DeLuise character is a kind of pantomime dame. If you notice, almost the entire cast was British.

"Dame Edna is not really a pantomime dame. She is a female character played seriously by a man - as in character acting. The music hall tradition resonates because it made the idea of a man dressing up as a woman a matter of comic invention and not a perversion as it is so often thought of here in the States." MdArtLover (talk) 17:13, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

I would have thought the most mainstream, reference to pantomime within a non British context, would have been Johnny Depp's acting style within the Pirates of the Caribbean series, which to any British viewer is obviously of panto style. See [3] for one of numerous references to Jack Sparrow and Pantomime, that can be found instantly using a search engine.217.171.129.72 (talk) 18:32, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Interwiki problem

There is a problem with the interwikis of this page. Every other's language cognate refers to the kind of performance done by mimes, but any attempt to manually correct the interwikis (from here or the other languages' pages) is blindly undone by the bots.

Is there any way to fix this? Some directive that will tell bots not to change the interwikis, or something like that? --Angus (talk) 08:44, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Use {{bots|deny=...,...,...}} (replace the '...' with the names of the interwiki bots) Also, go to all of the other wiki pantomime pages and remove the english wiki page if it is not the correct one.

link the other wikis to Mime artist I'll do it partly.

Finished, except cy:Pantomeimeo:Pantomimolt:Pantomimapl:Pantomimafi:Pantomiimisv:Pantomim (cant tell what they are). If there is any progress, please add tit to simple:, too, or else the problem will come back. ManishEarth^{Talk • Stalk} 09:40, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Edward Blanchard

We already mention the Drury Lane theatre's role in the development of "modern" panto. However it might be worth mentioning E L Blanchard's role in the development of the modern form of panto scripts at Drury Lane. It would bear some discussion. See http://www.its-behind-you.com/drurylanepantos.html for more info. -- Derek Ross | Talk 04:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Pantomime Roles

Does anyone know of any other panto roles which could be added to the table as I only know of four roles, if anyone knows anymore feel free to add them. Paul2387 (talk) 22:23, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Could anyone tell me what role people such as Prince Charming from Cinderella and Alderman Fitzwarren from Dick Whittington are considered to be, as I am unsure on this role. Plus if anyone knows of any other roles that are missing from the table on the article, feel free to let me know either here or on my talk page. Thanks Paul2387 (talk) 14:37, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

Australian Pantomime

Will the "panto sceptic" apparently unable to accept that ANYTHING has changed in the last fifty years, and that Australia (before television) once had a thriving "pantomime culture" please stop trying to wipe a much beloved memory of my childhood out of this article? Some things are such common knowledge that they don't really need references. Sadly pantos (and live theatre in general) are much less common these days than they once were but...--Soundofmusicals (talk) 21:33, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Comments on "Canada" and "Villain"

The part about Canada is way too long and ought to be cut down. Just name the places where pantos are performed in Canada without going into such detail.

In the table, it is not correct to say that the villain is played by a man, I think, as it is often a woman. Evil stepmother, evil queen, wicked witch etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.83.53.32 (talk) 08:30, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

I think a link to the U.S. "melodrama" might help here. The type of work described, with a villain, an expectation of stylized comic by=play with asides, etc., is very similar to/might be the same as the 1890s form of vaudevillian performance drama known in the U.S. as "melodrama." I've added a sentence to that effect. Best--Dellaroux (talk) 11:46, 8 September 2010 (UTC)