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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by HonestGeniusAcumen (talk | contribs) at 19:59, 17 December 2010 (→‎Lead-Acid Battery Float Voltages Incorrect: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Sign on half cell potential for lead oxide reaction wrong

For the cell to be non spontaneous in the "charging" direction as written, converting lead sulfate to lead oxide and lead metal, both half reactions as drawn should have negative cell potentials. if you flip the sign on the reaction shown so the potentials are -1.685 for lead sulfate --> lead oxide and -0.356 for lead sulfate --> lead, you get a full cell potential of -2.041 volts when charging. reverse them to show the discharge reaction, you'd get +2.041 volts when discharging indicating spontaneous reaction. this matches reality. as written, with the lead acetate --> lead oxide reaction as a positive potential,this page shows the charging reaction to be spontaneous with a potential of 1.329 V.66.155.211.158 (talk) 15:18, 3 August 2010 (UTC) reference: http://dl.clackamas.cc.or.us/ch105-09/voltaic.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.212.15.94 (talk) 16:17, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Totally agree, reverse the sign. While discharging, it should read -1.69V as its written on the page. 110.174.244.121 (talk) 02:59, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is the given spec, watt hours per dollar, supposed to really say amp hours per dollar?

There are some batteries that last longer than 800 cycles

Sungel has batteries that are supposed to last 1,500 cycles. Here's a link: http://www.batteryenergy.com.au/downloads/3.1.6.10%20Sungel%20deep%20discharge%20cycle%20life.pdf —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.245.87.5 (talk) 23:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are many. These are US made, UL listed too. Lifeline RV Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD
Lifeline Marine Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD
SunXtender Marine Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD
Chairman Wheelchair Batteries 1000+ Cycles @ 50%DOD mukster 07:10, 2 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mukster (talk • contribs)

Anode's reaction may be false!

Hey, my professor recently showed us the anode half reaction for this battery and SO4-, according to him, is supposed to be HSO4-, which deprotonates into SO4 2- and H+ with 2 electrons given up. This makes much more sense, since SO4 2- is the correct form of sulfate, and lead would rather have a 2+ oxidation anyway. It's an image, so i don't know how to fix it.

I believe you are correct. The reactions given in this article are appropriate to dilute battery acid. At the high concentrations of sulfuric acid in an actual battery, the reactions should involve HSO4- at each electrode. The voltages given may be correct, since they seem to add up to about the correct value. Sandman42 74.192.217.168 13:55, 24 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems to me that a water molecule was missing in the cathode equation. HarfangGS (talk) 16:39, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recycling PBA Effective?

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.84.26.184 (talk) 02:04, 7 December 2006 (UTC). Zarautz 20:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)==Recycling PbA effective?== I remember reading that most PbA batteries ended up in piles in Indonesia. Can we have a good primary source reference that lead is actually recycled? (It seems believable, considering how easy lead is to handle and refine, but you never know). --njh 05:42, 3 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MikeC195607:49, 09 September 2006 (UTC) The opening of the article states "Lead-acid batteries, invented in 1859 by French physicist Gaston Planté, are the oldest type of galvanic cell and are the most commonly used rechargeable batteries today.[Citation Needed] Well information for this statement may be found at Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/ebi/article-197275[reply]

In the United States, 99.2% of Lead Acid Batteries were recycled per EPA regulations. Please look here for documentation at Battery Council International. [[1]BCIRecylingRateStudyReport.pdf] mukster 00:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

How to charge PBAs

Can somebody give a list of how PBAs are charged? (unsigned comment from anon)


BCI would have this information.


I'd love to see some sort of introduction to rechargable batteries for the hobbiest. Of the common types (PbA, NiMH, NiCd, & Li+), I'm not sure which is the easiest to charge - i.e., most resilient to 'dumb' charging from a solar cell, generator, etc. (Unsigned comment by 70.23.244.12. 02:58, 17 August 2006, UTC)

Some of that information is in the Rechargeable battery page (which is hurting for more information and a good review at the moment). Of course, Wikipedia is not an instruction manual, but I imagine quite a bit more could be said on that page. For your own edification, there are battery charging ICs that you can buy that take care of safely charging many different chemistries for under 10 bucks. The 'dumbest' batteries are indeed lead acids (in my experience), while the newer batteries need more complex control circuitry (like the Lithiums that are always exploding in laptops). But you do need to be careful designing charging circuitry for any chemistry. (Please remember to sign your talk pages). Matt B. 23:41, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The battery University site has good info on recharging PBAs. The link is already on the rechargable battery page. <http://www.batteryuniversity.com/index.htm>. Dan Oetting 15:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed Merges

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I'm going to get started on cleaning up some of the existing sections of this article. However, it seems to me that Gel Battery, Absorbent glass mat and VRLA would fit much better into a "Types of Lead-Acid Batteries" subsection here. I'm going to add {{mergeinto}} tags to each of the articles, but I would imagine discussion would be most helpful here since it should be an all-or-nothing kind of thing -- it wouldn't be very productive if just one article moved :). Matt B. 11:29, 28 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed in principle. But VRLA (Valve Regulated Lead Acid) is a wider class than the other two, ie it is usual to have a VRLA gel battery or a VRLA AGM battery. Gel and AGM describe the electrolyte status, VRLA is just a safety valve to avoid gas build up in a sealed container. But I'm no expert. Zarautz 20:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, the way I worded it makes it sound like they are three different types. More precisely, I would imagine that Gel Battery and AGM would be subtopics of VRLA, which would be in a section under types of lead acid batteries (along with the old-fashioned wet version). I suppose theoretically you could make a Gel or AGM battery that isn't valve regulated, but I've never heard of such a beast (nor could I fathom a rationale for doing so). Matt B. 23:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like a perfect match.

Further comment re different types of lead acid batteries:

I accessed this article to learn the difference between a deep cycle battery vs a traction battery. In terms of usefulness of this article, I think the different "design styles" of lead acid batteries should be listed - Starter, Marine, Deep Cycle, Traction, etc, and the differences and specific applications discussed. CofE001 02:53, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

There are many types of batteries technologies that fill this in. Yes all sizeable batteries have vents, but would you please turn over your car battery and see the result :) acid everywhere! SO THE VALVES MATTER PER APPLICATION. The first main distinction is sealed or not (aka can you EVER take the lid off of it!) Next is voltage, plate thickness, construction methods, etc. some are distinct to a few distributors, patented, etc. Some are general and anyone can build em. Should you make the move to a more defined criteria list you are in danger of giving companies spaces. Throw them all together and you can't tell the difference when you don't know better. IS WIKIPEDIA GOING TO BE AN Encyclopedia Based Directory with examples of it's own? THEN WE NEED THE SPACE. I say leave em alone and maybe even add a section where you put batteries together by manufacturer or application. The Manufacturers can't do this as each only has a brand or two, but we can (GOOGLE PRECEDENT). Bigger is Better, CONTENT IS WHAT MAKES THIS POWERFUL. Mukster 14:46, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

How effective are recycling programs?

In the Enviromental Cleanup Section:

The article mentions that new versions of recycling are needed to cut down on polution. Does anyone know exactly how poluting current Recycling programs are?

Also, that whole section doesn't sound very professional.

"Effective Lead pollution control system is a necessity for sustainable environment. There is a continuous improvement in battery recycling plants and furnace designs for greater efficiencies. These recycling plants are ecology friendly as they follow all emission standards for lead smelters, but new methods should be devised or alternatives developed to the lead-acid battery so that lead pollution can be reduced to an essentially negligible amount."

Sounds alittle one-sided... --203.214.113.65 06:19, 26 May 2007 (UTC)Thanh Ho== How effective are recycling programs? ==[reply]

In the Enviromental Cleanup Section:

The article mentions that new versions of recycling are needed to cut down on polution. Does anyone know exactly how poluting current Recycling programs are?

Also, that whole section doesn't sound very professional.

"Effective Lead pollution control system is a necessity for sustainable environment. There is a continuous improvement in battery recycling plants and furnace designs for greater efficiencies. These recycling plants are ecology friendly as they follow all emission standards for lead smelters, but new methods should be devised or alternatives developed to the lead-acid battery so that lead pollution can be reduced to an essentially negligible amount."

Sounds alittle one-sided...

Internationally - Maybe. In the United States, Definitely Not! The lead-acid battery gains its environmental edge from its closed-loop life cycle. The typical new lead-acid battery contains 60% to 80% (sometimes 90%+) recycled lead and plastic. When a spent battery is collected, it is sent to a permitted recycler where, under strict environmental regulations, the lead and plastic are reclaimed and sent to a new battery manufacturer. The recycling cycle goes on indefinitely. That means the lead and plastic in the lead-acid battery in your car, truck, boat or motorcycle have been - and will continue to be -- recycled many, many times. This makes lead-acid battery disposal extremely successful from both environmental and cost perspectives.

BCI, Battery Council International, is the lead acid battery industry group in charge of industry standards. They have acted as a leader, actively promoting the recycling of spent lead-acid batteries and the use of recycled materials in the production of new batteries. As such the organization collects statistical data to provide the annual recycling rate of lead-acid batteries. BCI also developed model battery recycling legislation at both the state and federal levels in the U.S., as a way to efficiently recover valuable resources and keep recyclable materials out of the waste stream. The model has been adopted by legislatures in 37 states across the country.
US Lead Recycling Report ([2]Battery Council International - National Recycling Report 1999-2003)
([3]BCI Battery Recycling Page, ) mukster 00:00, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

???

The reaction shows that Lead Dioxide is on the Negative side, but later is says "The positive plates gradually turn the chocolate brown colour of Lead Dioxide" What's the deal?

Odd number of plates

"An odd number of plates is always used, with one more negative plate than positive." If there are 6 cells in series, how can this be true? --G N Frykman 08:49, 12 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Each cell consists of alternating plates tied together to increase the surface area. K4ZL 11:53, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

According to the books, the positive plate "grows" a little as lead dioxide is transformer to lead sulfate. To prevent one-sided growth from distorting the positive plate, it is exposed to negative plates on both side so that the forces will be symmetrical. So, one more negative plate than positive plates. --Wtshymanski 16:51, 18 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The number of plates, or for that matter, the general composition of any battery has no bearing on the number cells that constitute that battery. For instance 6 AA batteries lined up end to end would create a 6 cell, 9 volt battery. If packaged in something like a banana, paper towel tube, or similar non conductive material it could be sold as a 9 volt. 6 batteries x 1.5 volts = 9 volts. Slippery, but feasible, cheap test to run with a battery tester.
Look at 2,6,12, and 24 volt batteries. The difference is the number of cells. Per this discussion, a VRLA Battery cell generates roughly 1.8 - 2.4 volts. They explicitly say 12 volt 6 cell battery - so divide by 6. ([4]Lead-acid battery WIKI PAGE)
Series Connections (Positive to Negative)

Add voltage to the system So 1 cell is a 1.9-2.4 volt battery sold as a 2 volt model. 3 Cells constitutes a 6 volt battery, and so on.

Parallel Connections (Positive to Positive)

Add amperage (sometimes referred to as current) to the system. So 3 cells in parallel are still at 2.1- 2.4 volts, but have 3x amperage.

Volts X Amps = Watts. Watts is common light bulb speak for power consumption.

Each 12 volt 50 watt lightbulb needs 4.2 amps to light them up. 50w/12v=4.2a

Each battery design must weigh these three things

composition (acid, gel, li-ion), cell structure (# and configuration of cells), and resources (weight, size, lifespan). The best batteries engineer specific compromises between these elements to produce power.

Mukster 04:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Approx how much does a typical lead-acid battery 2.1V cell weigh? {Weight of a cell is dependant upon the Ampere-Hour of the cell - there is no such thing as a "typical" cell.} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.126.51.51 (talk) 16:16, 28 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Even number of plates

I was a battery design engineer and we had even number plate designs as did every US Manufacturer.

weird wording (electochemistry)

Each cell contains (in the charged state) electrodes of lead metal (Pb) and lead (IV) oxide (PbO2) in an electrolyte

seems like it would make more sense as:

.. contains in the charged state, electrodes of lead metal (Pb) and in an electrolyte, lead IV oxide (PbO2) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by T boyd (talk • contribs) 22:14, 15 April 2007 (UTC).[reply]

The former statement is more appropriate since the electrodes are BOTH submerged in electrolyte. Prince jofer (talk) 00:49, 10 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exploding Batteries

I have added a section on the problem of exploding batteries to address the issues already raised. I work in forensic engineering, and dealt with a recent problem where a mechanic lost an eye through lifting an old battery from a car. I am posting the section because it is an unusual hazard that users should know about so as to prevent possible future problems. Peterlewis 16:37, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Can a jolt cause a spark to jump between the terminals? Is this different from normal sparks from static electricity on people's clothing? Kallog 07:44, 9 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It seems a bit odd to me, static electricity shouldn't be able to build up inside a battery, nor should anything else cause a spark inside, perhaps if you short out or mistreat the battery in a similar way, it would case enough heat to set of an explosion. I suspect the most likely scenario would be that the casing simply exploded because of the built up pressure inside the battery. Batteries exploding is probably extremely rare, would be nice to see some statistics. --Apis O-tang 03:01, 10 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apis O-tang (talk • contribs)

I have witnessed a static discharge on the outside of a battery jar ignite the hydrogen contained within the jar. The act of touching a jar without first discharging any static electricity on one's person can cause such an explosion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.147.156.83 (talk) 16:57, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What is the quantity of Lead in a Lead-Acid Battery?

I want to know What is the Quantity of Lead in the lead Acid Battery?

203.199.41.18 12:28, 28 August 2007 (UTC) Ranjeet[reply]

Density

What is the density of Lead-acid batteries (kg/m^3 or whatever). I'm guessing about (11+2)/2 = 6.5 kg/L but wondering if anyone has real data? --Jaded-view 01:34, 9 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The energy density and energy/size measures suggest a range of 1500 - 2500kg/m^3. -- answering my own question. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jaded-view (talk • contribs) 16:44, 14 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


Deposition here any depositon tecniques for lead,lead dioxide are present it is more useful. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.227.249.226 (talk) 07:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Float voltages

I think a typo crept into the article under the heading "electrochemistry." Flooded cells typically require the highest charging voltages, gel cells the lowest, AGM somewhere in between. The float values are listed backwards in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.88.83.21 (talk) 05:51, 6 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Surprising explosions

I am surpised, having studied this phenomena in several batteries, and it is worth emphasising for reasons of consumer safety. If you have a problem with public safety, please air your concerns here and desist reverting without discussion Peterlewis (talk) 13:19, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CSIRO's UltraBattery

I don't know much about batteries so can someone with a better understanding of the problem go over this article about a supposedly revolutionary new generation of lead-acid batteries and update Wikipedia accordingly? Thank you. 24.83.176.171 (talk) 11:42, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sulfate Ions

Don't sulfate ions migrate through the wires unless countermeasures are taken? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.203.58.1 (talk) 18:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

picture

Is there another image? The current image better belongs to the VRLA article. 76.66.193.69 (talk) 12:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

is the one I just added better?Traveler100 (talk) 17:12, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

--216.250.196.55 (talk) 07:32, 7 April 2009 (UTC)DYHYHFD[reply]

Environmental concerns

This reads like a novel. Battery "progress" is ongoing and a continuous process. There are no "current attempts" Furthermore there is no such thing as a nickel-manganese battery, if there is i'd like to get some, they should be much cheaper and more friendly than NiCd/NiMH.

reverted back to my edit on july 5th, language may be coarse but the difference is critical. I would like to point out that the original change from ni-mh to nickle-manganese about a year ago was also dubious, and has no reference. Unit cost of nickel is a mute point, it may be 10 times more expensive than lead, but its mass is 1/4 and furthermore the ratio of active material to total plate mass, there is no comparison. NiCd is expensive for just about every reason from the case, to the electrolyte to the cadmium, not the high price of nickel, also note that wikipedia doesn't have a $/Wh listed for NiCd —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.178.85.76 (talk) 23:19, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

REACTIONS

Why are there only reactions for the recharging of the battery but not the spontaneous reactions which produce voltages (i.e. the actual function of the battery)? I think there should be both.--Welcome to the dark side. (talk) 23:28, 8 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was no consensus for move –Juliancolton | Talk 03:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Lead-acid battery → Lead-acid electrochemical cell — The electrochemical battery is simply a pair of electrochemical cells. this article deals around how this type of cell works. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.245.90.148 (talk) 12:02, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. The present title is common and accurate. I can go into Canadian Tire and ask where they keep the lead-acid batteries, but if I ask for electrochemical cells I'll be directed to some laboratory (if I'm lucky). --Wtshymanski (talk) 14:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The common name is lead acid battery and the name of the article should remain as is. ~~ GB fan ~~ talk 14:52, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just to clarify, I oppose all these moves for the same reason, they are at the common name and moving them will not make the encyclopedia better. ~~ GB fan ~~ talk 00:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Definitely not. The Wikipedia name should be the common name used for the technology in vernacular usage. The cell chemistry is important and should merely be described in a section on Lead-Acid cell chemistry. N2e (talk) 14:55, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose and suggest speedy close (is that possible?). This is not what the general public would be looking for. HumphreyW (talk) 15:25, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose WP:COMMONNAME 76.66.197.30 (talk) 16:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The term "battery" is almost always used by consumers, battery manufacturers, etc. TJ Spyke 17:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: Converted to multimove due to the similarity of the requests. 199.125.109.96 (talk) 23:50, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Additives

Could we get some science on the additives before putting them back in the article? There are lots of Web stories on the level of getting another few starts from a "dead" motorcycle battery with EDTA, but no-one has done any real science. --Wtshymanski (talk) 18:43, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Battery images

Given that the first image I made was deleted inmediatelly, I'm placing the links to the images here for reupload to the article. In case improvements to the images need to be done, please state so so I can implement them.

File:SLI lead-acid battery.png
Image 1
Image 2
File:EC battery electric wiring.png
Image 3

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.182.127.218 (talk) 07:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

KVDP (talk) 16:45, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Accumulatory" is a poor name, should perhaps be "accumulator". Numbers in the captions don't appear on the figure, so no way to identify what parts are described. It's not called "filler material", the lead dioxide and lead sulfate are the active material that makes the battery work. The fiberglass mat is the separator, they aren't separate.Light grey and yellow text is illegible on a light background. And the spelling of "sulfuric" is wrong. Similar remarks for the other figure; they are called "plates", not panels. --Wtshymanski (talk) 02:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK, will work on removing the extra "seperator" soon, in all images. Will also correct the sulpheric typo. As for the colors, ... I don't think I can alter this, materials have their own unique color and changing this for the sake of making the text more readable would make the image less clear. Also, I looked into using numbers in the drawing but the image has too bad a quality to use these (numbers would be too small/pixelated and thus unreadable, also hard to place them inside of the image). Perhaps these other issues can be resolved with an svg of the image later-on. Otherwise, people can use the new image I made called EC battery electric wiring (more accurate/clear). KVDP
Finished; note that I didn't change the drawing itself of the accumulatory image since I intented to show a different part; had the name wrong though, changed this. Changed text below too. 91.182.127.218 (talk) 09:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Over at Commons I've reverted your upload of the first image, tagged your wiring diagram for deletion and raised your recent contributions on the vandalism noticeboard.
  • Don't upload over other people's work. This wasn't a derivative image, it was a whole new image - so use a different filename. Overwriting others creates problems for licensing, your images aren't good enough to warrant it and most of all it's just plain damned rude to the original uploader.
I just saw it as a retouching of the image; the only thing I did was add some coloring and remove the second battery (which btw didn't have any function anyhow). Given that the original file only appeared in 1 (russian) article, and given the lack of things indicated on the image or clearly shown parts, I think the original uploader would be quite happy seeing his image improved/made more useful. I don't think that he will appreciate the newly added "no permission" template neither; for all we know (we don't speak russian I think, so we can't read his image description), he made the image himself, and also had it shown at accumulatory.ru KVDP (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It was already in use at :ru:, and you thought it would be a good idea to replace it with another, covered in English-language text? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your wiring bears no relation to reality. Once again, you demonstrate your utter lack of interest in basic technical accuracy and your disrespect for anyone who does care about such things.
I care about it too, why else would I draw it ? I wasn't completely sure whether it's correct, given that I could not find any image on the wiring on the web. I was planning to correct the image if I made a mistake based on the suggestions of the community at wiki commons. You'll probably state then again that this is unfair to the community to correct my mistakes, but really there wasn't an image before and now there is. And I did most of the work anyhow, you just need to state what needs to be changed. Is there really a problem ? I think the readers of the articles will certainly don't think so. KVDP (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You clearly don't care about accuracy, because you have shown no effort to achieve it, you frequently explain your gross fabrications as "permitted invention" and you can state things like, "I wasn't completely sure whether it's correct, given that I could not find any image on the wiring on the web." yet you continue to fabricate and upload bad images. These are not the actions of a cautious or competent editor. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
How can I achieve complete accuracy if there aren't any good images available and if I didn't have any training in engineering neither ? I just try to do as good a job as possible in making my images, hence relying to a degree on the quality of information that's available and then alter the image if it's still incorrect based on your instructions. It's in analogy to sculpting something in shape (correcting things version after version) rather than using a mold (the latter producing something which is completely accurate, inmediatelly). Ofcourse it's better to use a mold, but if you don't have one, you can't use the technique. As for not stopping uploading new images, I will stop, once I finish brushing up the articles that are important and still unclear to read. When that time comes, I'll disappear as swifly as I arrived here. User:KVDP
If you don't have the technical training or technical expertise in the subject then perhaps you shouldn't be trying to upload technical images in the first place? Just saying. HumphreyW (talk) 12:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Your continued behaviour in just these ways, and your refusal to work co-operatively on an encyclopedic project, is becoming a problem for the project, not just wasting the time of individuals.
Andy Dingley (talk) 14:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have been trying to work cooperatively with the community; isn't this just what I'm doing ? I don't mind spending hours and hours of my time in creating these images, just for others to get a better understanding of how things work. Isn't it suitable that every member of the community is atleast prepared to do so aswell ? If sometimes a member needs to spend some time to just state what needs to be altered on an image (thus give up far less time than the person who created this), then is this not but a fair price to pay, given the many and many people these images reach and help ? KVDP (talk) 17:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"just for others to get a better understanding" Have any of your images ever communicated a better understanding? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:30, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Up until I looked at the "wiring diagram" I thought I knew how a car battery worked. Surely to goodness it can't be that hard to come up with a more physical representation of the way the plates are interconnected, without all those confusing pink lines coming out at top and bottom of the plates (or "panels" as some would have it.) None of these images are useful to explain how a battery works- the artilce is better off without them. --Wtshymanski (talk) 19:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Freezing point depression, error

The more concentrated the sulphuric is, the lower it's freezing point. The sulphuric is the depressant. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.47.178 (talk) 06:56, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Storage: remove electrolyte to preserve charge?

Lets say you have a number of lead-acid battery devices which are not used frequently, such as snowmobiles, jet ski's, and so forth. As discussed in the article, lead-acid battery cells will normally slowly self-discharge in storage, and the lead plates will become sulfated and the battery life will decline.

What would happen if the electrolyte were removed from the battery cells when the equipment is stored for the year? Just drain or siphon the electrolyte out and store the acid in a plastic container next to the battery.

It would appear that this should halt the discharge process since the plates now hang in open air and there is no complete circuit from one plate to the next. The cells may retain a small amount of moisture, but this should drip off into the bottom area under the cells after a few hours.

Though draining the cells like this may be harder to do than it sounds. It may not be possible to insert a siphon tube into the fill caps on a standard car or ATV battery and be able to push the tube to the bottom of the cells, because the plates may fill the cell enough to block passage. The battery could be tipped over to drain the electrolyte out the fill holes, but they aren't designed to do that and the acid may leak all over the place, damaging the floor, etc.

Typical wet-cell lead-acid batteries appear to be designed to be filled when put into service and then never emptied completely dry after that, unless being discarded.

DMahalko (talk) 15:33, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this dry storage isn't unusual. It used to be (before sealed no-maintenance batteries) the standard way of delivering them in bulk to retail shops and garages.
I've got a 1930s MG car, a J2. Dad bought it in the 1950s and began restoration that still isn't finished. The batteries are the usual glass bottles in wooden crates for the period and these have always been dry-stored like this. Whether they're 1930s or 1950s, they're still usable if you fill them up and charge them.
It's near impossible to drain a modern battery like this, owing to the use of permeable bag separators around the plates. This splits each cell's fluid reservoir into multiple "reservoirs" and they'd need to be up-ended to drain out, not siphoned. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:43, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Does charge current really matter? Is general wisdom wrong?

After thinking more about the topic of battery charging, I do not understand why so much emphasis is applied to the charging current. We are told that the charging current must be limited or the battery may be damaged. This appears to be patently false if we consider a non-charging power supply.

If you were to take a 9 volt 200 amp power supply and connect it to a six-cell "12 volt" lead acid battery, it does not matter how many amps are supplied because 9 volts is not enough to "push" power into the battery. If anything the lead-acid will backfeed the 9 volt supply until the cells are depleted to the point of being damaged from discharge.

Probably the correct answer here is that the charge voltage is what really matters, and most low-end AC-powered battery chargers do very little regulation of the charge supply voltage. The cheapest chargers are little more than a transformer and a bridge diode with no filtering, so the charging voltage is basically a 50/60 Hz DC pulse train. For something as crude as this, the supply voltage is all over the place but is set to be roughly high enough to be able to push current into the battery. So in this situation, yes, limiting the charge current is a good idea because the charge voltage is unregulated and unmonitored, and it is up to the battery to be able to absorb excessive charging to a certain extent.

Probably a truly good battery charger would actually regulate the charge voltage to the hundreths of a volt, so that a float charge current really is no more than the 12.605 volts of a fully charged lead-acid battery. Then it wouldn't matter what amperage is supplied, since the battery won't accept the current if the charger supply voltage is slightly below the fully charged cell voltage by a few hundreths of a volt..

DMahalko (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead-Acid Battery Float Voltages Incorrect

Article is semi-locked so I can not edit it, but I want the correct information out there (I work for a company that makes float chargers).

Section 2, Voltages for Common Usages: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery#Voltages_for_common_usages

Continuous-preservation (float) charging: 13.4 V for gelled electrolyte; 13.5 V for AGM (absorbed glass mat) and 13.8 V for flooded cells

Should read:

Continuous-preservation (float) charging: 13.05 V for gelled electrolyte; 13.4 V for flooded cells and 13.6 V for AGM (absorbed glass mat).

These are the industry standard voltages. The presently listed voltages are much to high for gel and flooded, people may damage their batteries if they use them.

Thank You

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