Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2011 January 6

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January 6

File:Chengdu J-20.jpg

This is an improper use of fair use. I have seen several different photos of this plane so the claim that it can't be replaced is not correct. Plane photos are common. If we are patient, we will eventually find a free use photo. Wikipedia is "The Free Encyclopedia" and shouldn't be the website of stolen photos. Hakkapeliitta (talk) 01:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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- Delete per above. There are already quite a few drawings and photos out there. If Wikipedia is nice to people (see ANI for many instances of rudeness) then we may win over one of the many people who took photos of the plane during it's unofficial display to the public. Basically the argument that we will have photos one way or the other, by free use or by violating copyright or genuine fair use (not in this case), is not a valid argument. Hakkapeliitta (talk) 18:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep (as uploader). You misunderstand how the system works. There are no free useage photos at this time. Those photographs in the newspaper? They're not free use. Also, the photograph is not 'stolen'. It's uploaded, stated as copyrighted, and used under a fair-use license with appropriate rationaile. When free use photos become available, by all means, replace it, but they won't be available for a long time. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 01:30, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - This sort of case, where there are no free use images at the present time, is exactly why we have a fair-use image policy on Wikipedia. - Ahunt (talk) 01:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per Bushranger and Ahunt. - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep --Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 03:51, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Strong Keep Yeah, umm, this is exactly why we have non-free use. Despite the fact that analysts believe that this was an "unveiling" (putting the aircraft on a runway known as being watched by Chinese military enthusiasts, which constitutes the first time the plane has appeared in public, and coincides with an upcoming visit by US Defense secretary Robert Gates,) China isn't going to be releasing photos of this plane anytime soon. In fact, a lot of photos are being removed by Chinese authorities anyways. Don't expect any PD images, or any half decent images in general, for several years. Sven Manguard Wha? 03:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete despite popular appeal I googled this and there are many, many images of this. There are also some line drawings. It seems to fail WP:FUC which is policy WITH legal considerations. Fails policy 1 (work could be created with line drawings), policy 1 (could be conveyed with text), policy 8 (does not increase significantly understanding as the photo just shows the plane is a tube). Legally, the photo is not free use. From a popularity standpoint, it's nice to have. Ryan White Jr. (talk) 04:48, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete It is clearly a copyrighted image for which Wikipedia does not have a license. 76.22.32.86 (talk) 05:55, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Would you like to link to your alleged free alternative picture? Just because Google returns many images it doesn't mean that any of them are public domain. - DustFormsWords (talk) 04:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Just get a sheet of paper and start drawing. You can use many photos as a guide without copying any single one. We can ask the photographer for permission. Have we even tried? Ryan White Jr. (talk) 04:52, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First, then why not do it yourself? Secondly, how do we contact a random Chinese person with a cellphone? And third: I'd like to respectfully request that you strike your comment about "fanboys". It's borderline WP:CIVIL (on some boards I'm on, in fact, calling somebody a fanboy is grounds for banning, even) and also decidedly inaccurate. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:54, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I changed it. I thought fanboy was a term used for people who wrote about cars, planes, videogames, TV shows, etc.

Update on Free Use I just went through eight pages of google hits, not a single one, in any form, is free use in any way. Also, a line drawing would not be a sufficient replacement for something this complex. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:23, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There are so many images out there. At the very least a real attempt needs to be made to gain permission from the photographer or find a free image. It's not up to other editors to find free images that can replace this. Indeed I don't see any reason to have this image at all. An editor could create their own plan/sketch of this based on photos. It won't be pretty, but that's too bad if that's all that can be done right now. It's not like people won't be able to learn about the aircraft by just reading text. The article can also link to images on other websites. John Smith's (talk) 15:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Er...you did see where Sven up there did, indeed, make a "real attempt" to find a free image? They don't exist. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 20:21, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - I don't know how thorough a search he made. Google doesn't equal every resource in the world. But the point that someone could create an plan/outline image themselves is certainly valid. John Smith's (talk) 23:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As suggested by John Smith's, the first draft has been done. See File:Chendu J-20.pdf File:Chendu J-20.pdf This can be improved but is a start. This drawing also shows the front end, unlike the non-free use image in question! Hakkapeliitta (talk) 00:33, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I'm looking forward to this wonderful new Wikipedia in which our thousands of fair use images are replaced by black and white doodles someone whipped up in MS Paint. Good times. The first step would probably be to amend our fair use policy to explain that photographs can never be fair use as they're always able to be replaced by free hand-drawn scribbles. - DustFormsWords (talk) 01:11, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's a cheap response to a valid point. I've seen images produced on Wikipedia by people with software that look quite decent. Why can't someone do that in this case? And why hasn't anyone tried to contact the photographer to get his/her permission? John Smith's (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

...Pardon me for being quite blunt (it's been a long day), but what part of 'random Chinese person with a cellphone taking the picture' has been missed? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:11, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Definite Keep There may be a few images but none are free. There are no replacements available and wont appear for years possibly. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.150.180.101 (talk) 17:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep None of the other images are free and considering the track record of Chinese aircraft it is unlikely that a free image will appear until after the aircraft enters service several years from now. If one does appear then the image can be replaced, but a free-hand doodle is definitely not a replacement. -Nem1yan (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, drawings such as the one suggested by the nominator are nowhere near being sufficient replacements for this type of image. Nyttend (talk) 22:45, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep until a free image is available (might take a while). Could do with removing it from People's Liberation Army Air Force where despite the rationale it is just being used for decoration. MilborneOne (talk) 23:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
New information in support of delete http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PAK-FA_diagram.jpg This is a very detailed drawing. Permission was granted to use it. A similar J-20 drawing can be made. The photo is also replacable. Just look at the links in the article. There are links to several photographs. We cannot honestly say it is irreplacable if we have not asked. We are just lazy and guessing when we do so. Since we did not provide legal proof of irreplaceability and since the policy says it is a policy with legal reasons, we must delete. Wikipedia will not crumble without such picture. Another point is that this article has a free use image http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurora_%28aircraft%29 and the Aurora aircraft is so secret (much more so than the J-20) that if you are a civilian and have information on it, you have to be killed. Hakkapeliitta (talk) 02:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Er...1. the Aurora image is a screenshot from the X-plane PC flight-simulator program, and 2. You really, honestly believe that if you are a civilian and have information on it, you have to be killed? Name one case of somebody who was killed because they "knew too much", please. And you're stretching the "legal proof" argument way too thin. We have searched reasonably for free photographs. We have found no free photographs. They do not exist, and they will not exist for a very long time. A line drawing is not a substitute for a photograph. Therefore the use of one - ONE - photograph is perfectly legal as Fair Use. ALL those links in the article are to non-free use photos. The fair-useage rationale on the image page satisfies the legal requirement per the Fair Use standards. If you are so convinced that a Free Use photograph can be obtained, then by all means, don't call other editors lazy when they have searched and failed for one - find it, and upload it as a replacement image. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:44, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The burden of proof is the uploader. If the uploader must prove that free photos does not exist by showing a genuine effort to seek permission and search. There are free photos of other modern Red Chinese airplanes, including the front line fighters. Just because someone wants the photos here does not mean it passes non-free use requirements. Have we even asked? Just e-mail some websites. Ryan White Jr. (talk) 05:12, 8 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Keep as per Sven Manguard and The Bushranger. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:25, 9 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: If and when a free photograph becomes available, by all means replace it. Until that time, this is a perfectly acceptable image, in line with our wp:NFCC. Buddy431 (talk) 03:10, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete - Not being able to find something on Google doesn't mean there isn't a free alternative. It just means we're lazy, and we can't find one while sitting in front of a computer. I think fair use has to do with particular images that can't be replaced with free alternatives - like famous photos - like a photo of a UFO landing - something where Wikipedia will never be able to get a free alternative until the copyright runs out. This is picture is totally different. There's a video on this plane on Youtube, uploaded on 6 January 2011, where it is being towed down a runway and average-looking guys are there taking vids and pics of the plane with their cellphones [1]. Come on.... I looked at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China to see if anyone asked if anyone lived near Chengdu, where the plane lives, or if anyone asked about looking into getting a free pic of this plane -- no one has even tried getting in contact with Chinese Wikipedians there... No one has posted at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history or Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aviation, and asked for help hunting down a free pic of it. This is a real plane, it's a popular plane, it's going to around for years, there will be a free alternative pop up. I don't think this pic qualifies for fair use. It sets a bad precedent to keep, It means we're getting lazy.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:58, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In today's local paper, I see 2 more photos. They are everywhere. We just need to ask. Someone will be nice enough to agree. Hakkapeliitta (talk) 01:54, 11 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Coat of Arms Kingdom of Hungary.jpg

Orphaned, no real source, no way to verify licensing status Calliopejen1 (talk) 02:20, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - It's an 1867 image used as the official coat of arms of Hungary until 1918, and is itself composed entirely of heraldic elements dating back to previous centuries. It appears to be a historically authentic version of the image, as opposed to the user-created one currently being used at Coat of arms of Hungary for the same period (File:HUN Coa medium 1915.svg). I may be missing something, but why on Earth would we have any reason to believe it may not be in the public domain, or that it's unlikely to be of future use in improving the project? - DustFormsWords (talk) 03:11, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know what year this picture dates from if there's no source. How do you know anything about this particular drawing, when you don't even know where it came from?--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete The comically low quality of this image, coupled with the images File:Hungary medium coa 1910.png and File:HUN_Coa_medium_1915.svg, both freely available on commons, make the possibility of any future use of this image roughly zero. Keeping free images is good, but keeping really bad versions when good ones exist is silly. Sven Manguard Wha? 05:29, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, this appears to be an actual version, rather than one of the user-created ones linked by Sven Manguard. It's unquestionably too old for copyright. Nyttend (talk) 22:43, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not "unquestionably too old for copyright" -- no one knows where it comes from or how old it is! LOL. That's why we need a source - to verify its license.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Willow Run airplane inspection.jpg

OR, OB by File:Willow Run airplane inspection edited.jpg Admrboltz (talk) 02:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Many original images are left alone when an edited version is created. This allows editors to decide which version to use in case they don't agree with the level of retouching to the photo. Imzadi 1979 → 08:36, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If it is PD no reason why it cant just be moved to commons and then deleted. MilborneOne (talk) 23:31, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Connector plate.gif

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the media below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Speedy - Author supports deletion. Admrboltz (talk) 05:08, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OR, OB by File:Connector plate.svg Admrboltz (talk) 03:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete as obsoleted. Imzadi 1979 → 08:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the media's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Moqtada-al-sadr.jpg

There's nothing in the rationale to explain why this is less replaceable than other images of living people. Presumably this picture was taken at a press conference with media, and such events could happen again in the future, where others could take a picture. There is nothing special about this specific image, versus any other image that has been taken,or may be taken in the future. Rob (talk) 03:58, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
My goodness, this is a politician. There are thousands of his photos around! Ryan White Jr. (talk) 04:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Pbear.jpg

Derivative work of an Canadian stamp that is either under Crown Copyright or the copyright of the artist. As such, the uploader cannot release it to the public domain. Reso lute 06:03, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was the one who removed it from the only article that it was in Polar bear. I don't have an opinion about the deleiton, but would like to provide the following information. My notes on this were as follows:

This article has been submitted for Good Article status. I'm the reviewer. What an excellent article! The only remaining issue that I see is the use/permission status of the Canadian Polar Bear postage stamp image. Nobody resolved it and so I tried working on it myself. I asked elsewhere in WP and it appears that it has a real problem under WP standards. I plan to remove (the image from the article) and see if the change is stable

Sincerely,

North8000 (talk) 12:53, 5 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:U-image-5.gif

Conflicting free and non-free licensing. The source url appears to be a dead link. Rockfang (talk) 10:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Was Mao Really A Monster.jpg

The purpose of this image is not properly explained. It was used on the Mao: The Unknown Story article to show a publication that criticises the book. This is not a sufficient reason for having it. Book covers should be used only on articles about the book in question if it's a non-free rationale. Furthermore, seeing a book cover of a critical publication does not really assist a reader in any way. John Smith's (talk) 15:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Well, as the uploader, I of course am going to think that it is necessary in the article, as it illustrates and improves the aesthetics of the section, which would otherwise just be dull paragraphs of text. The book in question, Was Mao Really a Monster? is specifically discussed in the text, and so an accompanying image is of course of some use to the reader; it is just as useful, or useless (whichever way you wish to see it) as the pictures of Mao: The Unknown Story are, which also illustrate the page.(Midnightblueowl (talk) 16:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC))[reply]
  - It has been established that it is valid to use images like this if it's to show the book the article is about. So a picture of Mao:TUS can be used, and most people would expect one. In contrast I don't know of a similar policy about other publications that discuss the article. John Smith's (talk) 23:39, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:San-mar-mil.JPG

Image contains information that could be just as adequatly rendered (with the exception of the crest) in text/markup as a table. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 17:06, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- Interesting that you had seen this image before, but only adopted this new tack after I pointed out your sloppy editorial skills in criticising the lack of copyright information that had in fact been deleted in an act of vandalism. As for your new deletion campaign, maybe you prefer written information - some users are more responsive to illustration. The image presents the data in an easy to read manner, and with the assistance of 'traffic-light' colour coding which is fairly universally recongnised. However, if you'd rather see the info in a table, then I have no objection at all. Why don't you just go ahead and design the table, rather than wasting everyone's time with a deletion campaign? No argument from me - if you can do a better job, then I welcome it - this project should constantly grow and improve. But if you're just here to knock down other people's work, and make no positive contributions (as your talk page seems to suggest) then I do wonder what you get out of it. So my comment is: do what you like - I've more important things to do with my time. (Interesting how many times this message, or very similar ones, appear in your conversations with good editors - maybe time to pause for thought and self-reflection?). Timothy Titus ^{Talk To TT} 22:22, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I took you up on your suggestion, see the Talk page for image under disscussion..Sfan00 IMG (talk) 14:09, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Delete can be presented as a text table as demonstrated above, this also helps in long term maintenance as it is a pain to change an image like this but data in a table could be changed quickly. MilborneOne (talk) 23:53, 7 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Yoichi Fukumoto1.jpg

OR. Image came from deleted Yoichi Fukumoto article. No educational value now that article is gone. Admrboltz (talk) 21:53, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Osawa Kenji thumb.jpg

Orphaned and low quality image. Admrboltz (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]