Talk:List of people excommunicated by the Catholic Church

Error about Sinead

It states here that Sinead was excommunicated for joining the Palmarian Catholics. Palmarians do not attempt to ordain women. Also, on Sinead's own site, it states that she attempted to be ordained by the Independent Catholics. So this should be changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.146.37.103 (talk) 13:01, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Category

I think that this should be category stub, just like category former roman catholics

Communism Party & Communism

In 1 july 1949, there was a declaration of "ipso facto" excommunication of everybody connected with communist party (Decretum, 1 July 1949, in Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 1949, p. 334.)

Everybody

"Everybody in South America who took up arms against the Spanish and Portuguese monarchies under Leo XIII"

This statement has a problem. That being Pope Leo XIII]'s reign began in 1878, this is decades after the Spanish and Portuguese colonies gained independence. Simón Bolívar, José de San Martín, and Bernardo O'Higgins were all dead by 1850. The only monarchy in South America in 1878 was the Dutch and the English who were not Catholic. I'm guessing an earlier Leo is meant so I'll alter.--T. Anthony 14:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Guessing? How about citing or removing? I'm not saying this didn't happen, but I can't find a cite on the internet:

• Every Christian in South America who took up arms against the Spanish and Portuguese monarchies under Leo XII(Later rescinded)

Good luck -- SECisek 06:05, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

mourad-henry@hotmail.fr

ton msn ya henry dima henry toujour

I thought I heard something about North America being excommunicated in the last couple of years because we are "too gay" or something like that. Although I think I might of heard that on the Daily Show, which is not always right (even though it is almost always funny) Highlandlord 05:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Brendan Behan

Anecdote has it that the priest who was consulted to preside over Brendan Behan's marriage ceremony expressed reservations. Behan, as a (former?) member of the IRA (Irish Republican Army)--a secret oath-bound association--had automatically excommunicated himself (see also Fenians, in the 19th century list). When told that there would be difficulties, because he was excommunicted, Behan's reply was, "Then, so is Eamon deValera!" The marriage took place.--PeadarMaguidhir 17:40, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Stem cell researchers

Would anyone please provide a reference for that all stem cell researchers are in fact officially excommunicated by the RCC? I believe that the Cardinal doesn't have the canonical authority to excommunicate all stem cell researchers. I recommend deleting this entry. 207.239.38.159 06:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The weblink provided as a source for the claim that stem cell researchers are excommunicated by the RCC just states that it is a cardinal's proposal. Since no source was provided corroborating that they are actually excommunicated, I removed it for the time being. Gugganij 23:01, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

St. Stanislaus Kostka

The parish council and pastor of a St. Louis area church were excommunicated for refusing to acknowledge Archbishop Burke's authority.

If he is notable enough and/or has an article, add him in then. Wikipedia can be edited, by the way! -- the GREAT Gavini 17:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ebrard

Ebrard is not excommunicated even though the bishops consider him to have 'excluded himself from communion', this is not the same as excommunication, a state of excommunication latae sententiae has not been suitably verified, therefore deleting the entry --Isolani 10:09, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Hitler

I'd like to know when and for what Hitler was excommunicated for. There is no mention in the main Hitler article or the article about his religious beliefs that he was excommunicated. 64.230.86.99 (talk) 23:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC) Claymore

Adolf Hitler was never excommunicated. Some people have suggested that he should have been. Did the RC leadership ever consider excommunicating him? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 00:44, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Hitler was never excommunicated by name, but as leader of the Nazi party, he was obviously included within the February 1931 edict of the Conference of German Bishops excommunicating all leaders and active members of the Nazi party.: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.9.3.194 (talk) 21:17, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Proposal to remove uncited items

The current list has too many questionable entries. I would like to propose that we remove all elements of the list that do not have an accompanying citation. Entries can be re-added as citations are found. I believe that it would be better to have an incomplete list than an inaccurate one. However, before doing this, I will message Wikipedia:WikiProject Catholicism asking that citations be added for as many as possible in the current list-- after a week or so, any still remaining without citations will be removed? Does anyone disagree with this approach? JRP (talk) 00:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

No one should be on any list ("notables", for example), without having a citation as to why they belong in that particular list (may have bio article, but no indication of belonging to some other article such as this one). This is doubly true for living persons. Thanks for pointing that out! Student7 (talk) 11:18, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Uncited material shouldn't be on any lists. What might work here is to make a separate list of the uncited names, and then, a bit later, remove all those that aren't cited, thus allowing individuals to try to find citations over maybe a longer period of time. Maybe the list of uncited names could be placed here for temporary storage. Would that be acceptable to the rest of you? John Carter (talk) 14:08, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll move them all to the Talk page. I'm also going to try and verify as many of the references as convenient (web sources, mostly) as a double-check. Still, I want to wait a few days before pulling the trigger on this. JRP (talk) 14:31, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

My thought would be simply to delete, or if you are feeling generous, comment out, all redlinked items without footnotes. Couldn't you just <fact> the rest? Delete them next month or something? Just a thought. Student7 (talk) 22:50, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Redlinks

If someone has a red link should they be included in the list? Should there be a notability hurdle? JASpencer (talk) 08:50, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Wikipedia is about notables. This is a high level article (I make exceptions for real low level ones). People from the past must have an article. Otherwise why are they there and how can we verify? Recent people might not have an article for a short time. Maybe we could make exceptions with good references for awhile? (as discussed earlier, should have a footnote anyway to verify that they were excommunicated). Student7 (talk) 13:09, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I hope that this isn't as much of a problem as it sounds. (But I could be mistaken.) It seems to me that for any individual important enough for the church to formally do a writ of excommunication (or whatever the appropriate term is), they must be in some way notable either as an individual or as a group. (So, individual members of the "Danube Seven"-- one early group of female priests-- might not be notable, but their leader probably is and they may be notable as a group as well.) Maybe this doesn't hold and the church excommunicates people every week, but I suspect that we will find that many of them will be notable enough to have an article eventually. JRP (talk) 23:25, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Papal Decree

On reviewing the elements of this list and some of the comments above, I would like to propose that we limit the list to excommunications by papal decree only. A number of the excommunications from modern history on this list were done "automatically", even if a bishop subsequently declared the excommunication official. I feel that limiting it to Papal Decree (papal bull?) will have two benefits:

1. Everyone on the list will be notable and red links can be made into articles. Any person that has garnered enough attention from the Holy See that they get excommunicated in this way is notable.
2. The list will be finite. It is impossible for this list to ever be complete if we include automatic excommunications of any type, even if it is subsequently confirmed in the media or by a bishop, etc.

Unfortunately, I'm not an expert on this topic and so I'll ask for opinions from the Wikiproject (directing them to the discussion here). It could be that there simply are not that many that are this formal, but on the whole I think a more restricted list would be more valuable. I am very interested in alternate viewpoints however. JRP (talk) 02:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Makes a lot of sense. Historians and long-term Wikipedians should appreciate it. Scandal/tabloid people won't like it of course. This probably chops out most if not all the people in the 20th century.Student7 (talk) 11:51, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Papal Decree - followup

After a suitably long gap, I've followed-through and removed uncited items and followed up on all present citations to verify them. This makes for a considerably shorter list, but it means that it's a verifiable shorter list and I'm positive that, with a little work, we can get it back up to its prior length with references intact. I had hoped to have time to get this worked through with more of my own research, but I haven't had the time. Here is the old version, if anyone wants to troll through this for more items to readd: [1] JRP (talk) 03:45, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

BTW: Even this is imperfect. It's hard to tell, short of a link to vatican.va, is news reports really understand the types of excommunication and whether we can read from them enough to consider whether their stories are excommunications for this list. I've made my best effort, but someone with more time may want to dig further. JRP (talk) 04:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know it is the ordinary that declares a person excommunicate, the person excommunicated may then appeal to Rome - which suspends the declaration until ratified by Rome - that being said. Limiting the excommunications to those declared by papal bull would be unduly limiting. Some, excommunicated by their ordinaries have not appealed to Rome, canonically, theyr are excommunicate but yet would not be added to this list. I would suggest all be included that are canonically excommunicated. You'll find their number to be relatively small - which will meet your concerns over spurious additions to the list.--Scarpe (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable, but I'm afraid that I don't know the definition. Can you help me to know what that means from a research standpoint and adjust the summary at the top of the list accordingly? I was hoping to limit the number to verifiable excommunications and the Vatican has always been good about keeping a paper trail for such things, even to antiquity. But if this still gets rid of the "automatic" excommunications which are difficult to prove and not verifiable. (In cases where a class of individuals are excommunicated, if we include them, we should denote the class and not try and fill in individuals which may apply.) JRP (talk) 15:56, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Check Ed Peters' excellent weblog and excommunication blotter. ( http://www.canonlaw.info/canonlaw_excomm.htm )

You are right in being somewhat wary of 'automatic' excommunications. And I would agree in desisting from adding anyone to the list merely because someone claims that A committed act X, and act X is punishable by automatic excommunication. Generally I would not 'count' an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication until the existence of this excommunication is declared by that person's ordinary. This is the criterion used by Ed Peters, and he is as bona fide a canon lawyer as they come. I would *not* include a latae sententiae excommunication if it comes from anyone else. An auxiliary bishop does not have jurisdiction, if an auxiliary therefore says A is excommunicated it does not have canonical effect. Neither do pronouncements by random cardinals, unless they happen to be speaking in official capacity as members of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith or one of the Church courts. A hard and fats rule: include it if it is on Dr. Peter's 'blotter'. Only adding those excommunicated under the provision of some papal documemt is much, much too narrow. --Scarpe (talk) 14:50, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Joe Biden

This is not a list of people who have "indicated effective excommunication" but who have been officially excommunicated. Biden's support of abortion has certainly got himself into serious trouble but he has not been excommunicated officially an in person. JASpencer (talk) 16:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Why have so many people dissapeared from this list???

I was shocked to see that many are missing what happened with them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumaterana (talk • contribs) 22:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC) See the conversations above. Unsourced items and "automatic excommunications" have been removed from this list. JRP (talk) 23:35, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Citation needed tags

I've removed the citation needed tags by many of the people in this list. For one, all of the people here are well-known excommunicatees (real word?) and their excommunications are common textbook knowledge. If a citation is truly needed, I'm sure one of the citations on their own pages (of which they are of course linked to) discuss it, and if necessary the reader can look into one of those. CaptainP (talk) 02:26, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Recent St. Louis excommunications

I was wondering whether the relatively recent excommunications of Womenpriests Rose Hudson and Elsie McGrath (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/religion/story/84C2EC265110978A8625740C000C5798?OpenDocument) would fall under the section of "automatic" excommunications and be excluded from this list or not. Pokeronskis (talk) 01:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Jacqueline Kennedy, of all people

While doing some research on an unrelated matter I found a number of articles relating to her having been excommunicated in November of 1968. This one [2] discusses Cardinal Cushing responding to a Vatican announcement that she was a "public sinner" (for having married a divorced Orthodox Christian) and had been excommunicated. The details may be in one of these articles [3] [4] [5] [6] (especially the last, because the words "formal excommunication" are in a ten-word extract) might contain clues, but I can't afford $3.95 an article to say whether they do or not. I can say that many newspapers and television reports of the time stated categorically that she had been excommunicated. Does anyone have any actual proof that one could refer to without paying $3.95 per article, one way or the other? --NellieBly (talk) 18:01, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

"Public sinner" would be insufficient IMO to excommunicate someone unless they had some position of authority or were publicly arguing with the church (okay, the Brazil abortion case wasn't in either category, but nevertheless...). People excommunicate themselves in any event. In rare cases, it is announced by the Vatican and shows up here. Most often it is simply unofficial. People who married a divorced person should not receive the sacraments. Kennedy knew this. Did she even attend church? Big deal when Jack was President and they were trying to impress the electorate with religious observance. Probably moot after she was widowed.Student7 (talk) 21:35, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I was actually looking for actual evidence that she'd been excommunicated. Do you have any? --NellieBly (talk) 06:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

St. Stanislaus church council et al. (St. Louis)

I don't have handy cites or refs, but I seem to recall a few years ago that then-Archbishop Raymond Burke declared that the above church council (parish council? I forget the exact term) had excommunicated themselves. Definitely a group to be added, will look later, or others might check the archives of the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (try [www.stltoday.com STLToday.com]). umrguy42 17:06, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Comprehensive list

Does this article intend to be (or purport to be) an all-inclusive list? I'd think excommunications via Papal Bull would be easily verifiable; if the list is indeed holistic, I'd recommend noting it in the lead section (if not, that should be noted too). //Blaxthos ( t / c ) 02:33, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Folks in Brazil

Should the people mentioned in this article be included? Vatican defends Brazil excommunication --MicahBrwn (talk) 07:50, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

9-year old girl excommunicated?

I wasn't able to read the source given, because it was not in English and I didn't feel like reading it through a clumsy translation, but all of the sources I've seen say she was not excommunicated. They say the church spared her because of her age and instead excommunicated everyone involved in the abortion. Can anyone clarify? Here's my source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

Who is eligible

An editor professed to be surprised that the rapist was not excommunicated. Assuming good faith, as we always must, the church announces the fact that (in the church's opinion) people have excommunicated themselves from God (turned from God). A rapist might have repented. It was clear that the mother had not. The perp was guilty of repeated rape, the mother guilty of assisting (abetting) a murder (in the church's view), a bit more serious. Also, there was the publicity involved. Since the abortion was public knowledge, so was the excommunication.

The rapist might have excommunicated himself. The church took no stand because it wasn't public knowledge what his stand was.

There are plenty of rapists of nine-year olds in the US, maybe 20 a year (I'm guessing here). Most are handled "by the authorities" without publicity, the victims and families being essentially "unchurched." Probably a couple of these, migrants, illegals, come to term as well. No publicity. tv never gets out that far. Brazil is a tempest in a teapot considering our own backyard. So much for "News at 11." Student7 (talk) 11:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Reverse chronology

Why is the article structured in reverse chronology which differs from all other articles. This seems WP:POV or WP:SOAP-ish by overemphasizing current events over previous ones. tv-ish. Student7 (talk) 13:22, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Schism vs. Excommunication

It would be a good idea to try to better distinguish schism and excommunication, a distinction that came after the Second Vatican Council. For instance, in Unitatis Redintegratio, the Council says that some schisms are incomplete, while other schisms are complete. The Arian schism was a complete schism, while the Eastern schism is still an imcomplete schism since the excommunication has been lifted. ADM (talk) 00:07, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

"a distinction that came after the Second Vatican Council" - nonsense. This distinction is nothing new and nothing hard to grasp. Excommunication is a punishment (no matter whether latae setentiae or imposed) for certain acts, among which are apostasy, heresy, schism etc. Str1977 ^(talk) 12:09, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, I was thinking of the concept of ecclesiology of communion, a conciliar notion that has had a significant impact on Catholic-Orthodox relations and Catholic-Protestant relations, since it defines the Church in terms of interpersonal communication of the bishops and the faithful. It would be intesting if we had an entry on that, it could help with our series of articles on ecumenism. ADM (talk) 12:43, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

In what sense was there ever a complete schism between West & East? Until the 1720s there were often people simultaneously in communion with both sides. Peter jackson (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Cerularius

He was excommunicated by papal legate(s) after the Pope had died & before the next was elected. Legal validity questionable. Peter jackson (talk) 10:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I addressed that but want to clarify that the "before the next was elected" doesn't really make any difference. The legates were legates of Leo IX and the bull was written by Leo IX and hence the bull became void with Leo's death. The election of a new Pope did not change that. In order to be valid the new Pope would have to issue a new bull. Str1977 ^(talk) 12:25, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Quite so. I mentioned that simply to answer a hypothetical objection that the hypothetical new Pope might have done so. Peter jackson (talk) 16:17, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Western church

A qualifier was removed by a respected editor. The qualifier read "Prior to the sixteenth century, there was a single church in Western Europe which called itself 'Christian' not 'Roman Catholic.'" The editor commented that this was not true, that the Orthodox had split off earlier. This is true, but they were the Eastern Church, not Western. The Western church has essentially been one monolith from the 1st century through the 15th. All church history in the West derives from this single, earlier history. It was not "The Roman Catholic Church" up to that point. It was "the" church. Student7 (talk) 11:29, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Still, the note that was removed was false. There never was a body calling itself the "Christian church" anywhere. The body in existence before and after the Protestant reformation called and calls itself Catholic Church. The pre-protestant body did not split into two new groups but Protestant groups split off from the Catholic church. Str1977 ^(talk) 12:07, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Agree that they may have called themselves "Catholic Church" to distinguish themselves from the Orthodox. The church did split in two though. The Vatican has a strong political hold on Rome. Nobody was going to walk off with that! Luther had the protection of his ruler(s), an essential element in a split. He doubtless considered his church Catholic, as did Henry VIII right up until the latter's death. So it was a split from the splitters pov. Each considered themselves the one true (catholic) church. From Rome's pov, of course, heresy.

Before that, a single church in the West. Student7 (talk) 21:58, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

There's rather a difference, though, isn't there? "The Pope ... seceded with all his followers from the Church of England" is a joke. The term "the Christian Church" is common enough. It seems to be mainly used as a sort of weasel term, meaning "our lot". Peter jackson (talk) 16:23, 18 June 2009 (UTC)

Exactly. The Western church did this in it's entirety up until 1450 or so. Not half the church. Or one-third. The flip side is "credible deniability." "We seceded so we will decide which history we want!" What you did that we (today) like, "us Christians" did. What you did that we don't like (as of today), "Roman Catholics did." This doesn't seem factually accurate to me.

Does the government of Alabama today teach that the government of the United States issued the "Emancipation Proclamation?" Maybe more appropriately, does the United States, having seceded from England, still have "common law" up until the time it seceded? Stare decisis (sp) up until that time. Laws issued by English courts until that time are (were) part of American law history. Student7 (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Uta Ranke-Heinemann

I think there is a case to be made that Ranke-Heinemann was really excommunicated. One of the reasons that leads me to think this is that the article about her names two specific canons that were used at the time, namely canon 1364 and canon 751, with one anonymous user adding them to the entry at one point. [7] It is unclear who exactly excommunicated her, as the name of the bishop is not provded, but it would be a good idea to retrace the identity of this ordinary. Also, the virgin birth is a fairly important dogma in Christianity and denying it could well be a cause for such an excommunication, since it is very similar to denying the divinity of Christ. Finally, Ranke-Heinemann did also lose her right to teach, or missio canonica, but this is not the same as an excommunication and it is likely that both sanctions were applied in a relatively short period. ADM (talk) 12:55, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

No, no, no, no! There is no case for her inclusion here and since nonsensical "sources" keep on being added I remove her now entirely.

Thus far the only source is claims by that woman herself. It is true that her behaviour has merited automatic excommunication many times BUT this list specifically says that those are only included IF confirmed by a bishop. With such information (and I don't believe there can be because no bishop ever confirmed this) she stays out.

Str1977 ^(talk) 08:00, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Nazis excommunicated

See discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Catholicism#Excommunication_.22too_good_to_be_true.22. This document surfaced on Vatican.org and is a primary document. We need someone to analyze it. We can quote the analysis of it, if useful. However, editors have already done that and it does not appear to be of much use. Interesting. That is about it. 1931 was way too early for anyone to "excommunicate" anyone. Everybody except Jews, including most Americans and maybe English were still enthusiastic about "Mr. Hitler" at that time. Eight years later, not quite so enthusiastic anymore! But it took time. Student7 (talk) 20:06, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Why did you delete the discussion I started? And this discussion you reference is simply a bunch of editors saying that they don't understand German. Tellingly, one does say he sees a reference to the Nazis being separated/forbidden from the sacraments. What precisely do you believe excommunication is? I understand the document. It separates active members and leaders of the Nazi party from the sacraments. As for individuals who voted or supported the Nazis, their future participation in the sacraments should be assessed on a case-by-case basis, largely dependent on their motivations in supporting the Nazis. I have restored the link because what I have recited above is an accurate description of the document.

No. There were German readers and Italian readers since it is in both languages. No, Nazis are not excommunicated. This would be really big news if it were true. No one wanted to do anything bad to Nazis (except the Jews of course) in 1931. They were considered the "saviors" of Germany. The fact that the church had scruples (which are reflected in the document) is kind of significant, I suppose.

The document is a primary document. Even if what you said is true, Wikipedia cannot use it because of WP:PRIMARY. Student7 (talk) 21:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

As someone who understands German, I wonder on what authority you say that the document does not say what I can plainly see that it says. Moreover, as I read the primary source requirements, this is plainly a document which can be cited, because it is verifiable as originating from the Vatican archives.:: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.9.3.194 (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

You may be right, but we are still trying to use a "primary" document which we shouldm't be doing. We need to ask what this hasn't been processed by any unbiased reliable source. So far, that hasn't happened. Remember CBS "finding" documents purporting to show Bush missing Guard duty? These looked authentic but were, in retrospect, probably bogus. Student7 (talk) 00:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I gather we have accepted that the document is authentic; satisfies the primary source requirements; clearly provides for the separation of the Nazi leaders from the Catholic sacraments (i.e., excommunication); and that this commentary and link stays. Thank you for the discussion.

21st Century

Most of the excommunications mentioned here were/are automatic and all those Bishops did was announce that those persons had indeed incurred those automatic excommunications. Just because the newspapers got it wrong, doesn't mean we should perpetuate their mistake. 99.28.85.48 (talk) 05:58, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks. The media often gets facts wrong. It is important that they wind up here in an accurate form. Student7 (talk) 14:39, 23 February 2011

(UTC)

Dispute over health of patient with abortion

A line keeps getting changed: "excommunicated for allowing an abortion that was deemed medically necessary to save the life of a pregnant woman suffering from pulmonary hypertension" in one manifestation.

n the past, when abortion was illegal, every time there was a hole or apparent hole in the law, everyone was presumed to suffer from it. So if there was an exception for "Mental health", everyone who wanted an abortion was certified to have a "mental health problem." For rape, everyone who wanted an abortion had been "raped," never mind they never reported it to the authorities. These are weasel expressions and are not presumed to be factual. So saying she was hypertense and an abortion was vital is not really factual. We can say that the hospital personnel claimed that, but it's not something that the readers should be led to believe. Student7 (talk) 13:39, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Plenty of news outlets state it outright, so if it would make you more comfortable, we could replace the NPR source with one of those. (Here are some that mention the excommunication specifically, though other coverage of the case before the excommunication also says this.) Your personal opinion that she and the doctors were lying is not relevant here. Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 16:07, 8 March 2011 (UTC)