Talk:Manusmriti

Ambedkar

I am pasting the relevant test from Babasaheb Ambedkars book, "Revolution and Counter Revolution in India". this is essential to understand the date of writing of the Manusmriti

""""It (Buddhism) did not remain as one of the many diverse religions then in vogue. Ashoka made it the religion of the state. This of course was the greatest blow to Brahmanism. The Brahmins lost all state partonage and were neglected to a secondary and subsidiary position in the Empire of Ashoka.

Indeed it may be said to have been suppressed for the simple reason that Ashoka prohibited all animal sacrifices which constituted the very essence of Brahmanic Religion.

The Brahmins had not only lost state partonage but they lost their occupation which mainly consisted in performing sacrifices for a fee which often times was very substantial and which constituted their chief source of living. The Brahmins therefore lived as the suppressed and Depressed Classes2 [f58] for nearly 140 years during which the Maurya Empire lasted.

A rebellion against the Buddhist state was the only way of escape left to the suffering Brahmins and there is special reason why Pushyamitra should raise the banner of revolt against the rule of the Mauryas. Pushyamitra was a Sung by Gotra.

The Sungas were Samvedi Brahmins,3[f59] who believed in animal sacrifices and soma sacrifices. The Sungas were therefore quite naturally smarting under the prohibition on animal sacrifices throughout the Maurya Empire proclaimed in the very Rock Edict by Ashoka.

No wonder if Pushyamitra who as a Samvedi Brahmin was the first to conceive the passion to end the degradation of the Brahmin by destroying the Buddhist state which was the cause of it and to free them to practise their Brahmanic religion.

That the object of the Regicide by Pushyamitra was to destroy Buddhism as a state religion and to make the Brahmins the sovereign rulers of India so that with the political power of the state behind it Brahmanism may triumph over Buddhism is borne out by two other circumstances.

The first circumstance relates to the conduct of Pushyamitra himself. There is evidence that Pushyamitra after he ascended the throne performed the Ashvamedha Yajna or the horse sacrifice, the vedic rite which could only be performed by a paramount sovereign. As Vincent Smith observes :

"The exaggerated regard for the sanctity of animal life, which was one of the most cherished features of Buddhism, and the motive of Ashoka's most characterisitic legislation, had necessarily involved the prohibition of bloody sacrifices, which are essential to certain forms of Brahmanical worship, and were believed by the orthodox to possess the highest saving efficacy. The memorable horse sacrifices of Pushyamitra marked an early stage in the Brahmanical reaction, which was fully developed five centuries later in the time of Samudragupta and his successors."

Then there is evidence that Pushyamitra after his accession launched a violent and virulent campaign of persecution against Buddhists and Buddhism.

How pitiless was the persecution of Buddhism by Pushyamitra can be gauged from the Proclamation which he issued against the Buddhist monks. By this proclamation Pushyamitra set a price of 100 gold pieces on the head of every Buddhist monk. [f60]

Dr. Haraprasad Shastri speaking about the persecution of Buddhists under Pushyamitra says[f61]  :

"The condition of the Buddhists under the imperial sway of the Sungas, orthodox and bigotted, can be more easily imagined than described. From Chinese authorities it is known that many Buddhists still do not pronounce the name of Pushyamitra without a curse."

II

If the Revolution of Pushyamitra was a purely political revolution there was no need for him to have launched a compaign of persecution against Buddhism which was not very different to the compaign of persecution launched by the Mahamad of Gazni against Hinduism. This is one piece of circumatantial evidence which proves that the aim of Pushyamitra was to overthrow Buddhism and establish Brahmanism in its place.

Another piece of evidence which shows that the origin and purpose of the revolution by Pushyamitra against the Mauryas was to destroy Buddhism and establish Brahmanism is evidenced by the promulgation of Manu Smriti as a code of laws.

The Manu Smriti is said to be divine in its origin. It is said to be revealed to man by Manu to whom it was revealed by the Swayambhu (i.e. the Creator). This claim, as will be seen from the reference already made to it, is set out in the Code itself. It is surprizing that nobody has cared to examine the grounds of such a claim. The result is that there is a complete failure to realise the significance, place and position of the Manu Smriti in the history of India. This is true even of the historians of India although the Manu Smriti is a record of the greatest social revolution that Hindu society has undergone. There can however be no doubt that the claim made in the Manu Smriti regarding its authorship is an utter fraud and the beliefs arising out of this false claim are quite untenable.

The name Manu had a great prestige in the ancient history of India and it is with the object to invest the code with this ancient prestige that its authorship was attributed to Manu. That this was a fraud to deceive people is beyond question. The code itself is signed[f62] in the family name of Bhrigu as was the ancient custom. "The Text Composed by Bhrigu (entitled) "The Dharma Code of Manu" is the real title of the work. The name Bhrigu is subscribed to the end of every chapter of the Code itself. We have therefore the family name of the author of the Code. His personal name is not disclosed in the Book. All the same it was known to many. The Author of Narada Smriti writing in about the 4th Century A.D. knew the name of the author of the Manu Smriti and gives out the secret. According to Narada it was one Sumati Bhargava who composed the Code of Manu. Sumati Bhargava is not a legendary name, and must have been historical person for even Medhatithe[f63] the great commentator on the Code of Manu held the view that this Manu was 'a certain individual'. Manu therefore is the assumed name of Sumati Bhargava who is the real author of Manu Smriti.

When did this Sumati Bhargava compose this Code? It is not possible to give any precise date for its composition. But quite a precise period during which it was composed can be given. According to scholars whose authority cannot be questioned Sumati Bhargava must have composed the Code which he deliberately called Munu Smriti between 170 B.C. and 150 B.C. Now if one bears in mind the fact that the Brahmanic Revolution by Pushyamitra took place in 185 B.C. there remains no doubt that the code known as Manu Smriti was promulgated by Pushyamitra as embodying the principles of Brahmanic Revolution against the Buddhist state of the Mauryas. That the Manu Smriti forms the Institutes of Brahmanism and are a proof that Pushyamitra Revolution was not a purely personal adventure will be clear to any one who cares to note the following peculiarities relating to the Manu Smriti."""" http://www.ambedkar.org/ambcd/19B.Revolution%20and%20Counter%20Rev.in%20Ancient%20India%20PART%20II.htm#a7

The bit where the manusmriti is dated as being composed around 200BCE has no references and seems to be a ridiculously late date. While it is a fact that the greek invaded around that time, most of the tribes mentioned there are said to have been exiled from the northwestern parts of Afghanistan - this is recorded in the Puranas. So the justification for the date (200 BCE) is no more tenable than my claim. Until a solid reference based on proper historical research (as opposed to historical conjecture) is given, the chronology should be removed.

Completely non-neutral

This page seems to have been hijacked by people with a (possibly) genuine grevience against Manusmriti. It shows only the point of view of one section of people. But, that has no place on wikipedia if it is supposed to be neutral. This page should probably be rewitten from scratch.

Concurring Opinion

Did anyone notice that this article simply goes on about how the caste system is a way of subjugating those born into "lower" castes? What about the other things that are in the Manusmriti? Like sexuality, for example? This article takes a negative tone about the entire works and does not consider it as a whole.

Object

I had edited this page yesterday, but it is gone. To start with let me propose that hindu mythology doesn't say that Manu is forefather of "human race", it is (wo)man . the race word should be omitted.

Can the person who has added a story on Pushymitra reply on why is such interpretation is important to be included here, if not for derogatory purposes. Historians have been saying all sorts of things, of how fair skinned aryans invaded the dravidians, and that is all about the roots and everything that sprang from it. Such stuff should be edited out from hinduism pages, instead be contained in history pages.

Latest Research on The Manusmriti

In the late 1970's, Prof. Dr. Surendra Kumar had done a research work on Manusmriti to remove all interpolations. He research work has been published by Arsh Sahitya Prachar Trust, Delhi in the form of Sampoorna Manusmriti. It had received a wide applause from the Vedic Scholars and Arya Samaj Mandirs in India. This book claims it is the first successful attempt at removing all interpolations. In this book, the researcher has given detailed commentary on all verses in Manusmriti and also explained in detail regarding why a particular verse was an interpoltion. Later Vishuddha Manusmriti was published which contained only the authoritative verses and all interpolations removed. Since there had been no article speaking about this work, also taking into consideration the importance of this book (all Arya Samaj mandirs and vedic scholars in India at present refer to only this work in all matters pertaining to Manusmriti), i have added an article. plz covey ur views. Rockwillgetu

Table of Contents

The formatting for the Table of Contents taken from Olivelle needs to be fixed and the whole thing properly cited.

Drdj (talk) 03:17, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Hercules = Hari Krishna

Er, where is the source for this very matter-of-fact assertion that the god whom Megasthenes describes as Hercules was in fact "Hari Krishna"? --SohanDsouza (talk) 09:55, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, I can't find any info about this. Is there anyone who can help? leaflord (talk) 14:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Hi,

   Bharuci wrote a commentary in 7th century BC while manusmrii was written 2nd century BC? Is that some kind of a joke??

Vishal Agrawal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.236.12.149 (talk) 15:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Bharuchi is 7th century AD not BC. leaflord (talk) 14:14, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Does not conform to Wikipedia standards.

This article is completely non-neutral and does not conform to Wikipedia standards. It looks like the author of this article has a very biased opinion about Manusmriti in particular and the sacred scriptures in general. In my opinion, it is best to leave the choice, to the reader, of deciding the merit of the work only after reading it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.81.17.55 (talk) 20:35, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

Deletion of Manusmriti’s most controversial part ,discrimination against Women and Shudra,

Some user deleting following most controversial part continuously. It shall be stopped. If anybody thinks presentation style is not good, it can be changed.but deleting this part will make article incomplete. —Preceding unsigned comment added by JUGAL70 (talk • contribs)

Jugal, I have had to revert your edits once more since they did not address any of the concerns I raised at your talk page, and in reply to your message at mine. As I have said before, I have no objection to adding content about what Manusmriti has to say about women or shudras, but adding a selective quote farm is not the way to do so. I'd suggest that you use this talk page to craft the content you wish to add, since edit-warring at the article will only get you blocked, and is not a productive strategy. Abecedare (talk) 05:39, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Laws of the Manusmriti for Shudra and women

1. For the welfare of humanity the supreme creator Brahma, gave birth to the Brahmins from his mouth, the Kshatriyas from his shoulders, the Vaishyas from his thighs and Shudras from his feet.

2. God said the duty of a Shudra is to serve the upper varnas faithfully with devotion and without grumbling. .

3. The Brahmin should never invite persons of other varnas for food. In case, the latter begs the Brahmin for food, the Brahmin may give them some left-over. Even these left-over must be served not by the Brahmin but by his servants outside the house.

4. He who instructs Shudra pupils and he whose teacher is a Shudra shall become disqualified for being invited to a shradha.

5. A Shudra is unfit of receive education. The upper varnas should not impart education or give advice to a Shudra.It is not necessary that the Shudra should know the laws and codes and hence need not be taught. Violators will go to as amrita hell.

6. "Let him not dwell in a country where the rulers are Shudras."

7. Brahmin must not read the Vedas in the presence of the Shudras.

8. Any country, where there are no Brahmins, of where they are not happy will get devastated and destroyed.

9. A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by descent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra .

10. The Kingdom of that monarch, who looks on while a Shudra settles the law, will sink low like a cow in the morass.

11. Any Brahmin, who enslaves or tries to enslave a Brahmin, is liable for a penalty of no less than 600 PANAS. A Brahmin can order a Shudra to serve him without any remuneration because the Shudra is created by Brahma to serve the Brahmins. Even if a Brahmin frees a Shudra from slavery the Shudra continues to be a slave as he is created for slavery. Nobody has the right to free him.

12. A Shudra who insults a twice born man with gross invectives shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin.

13. If Shudra mentions the names and castes of the (twice born) with contumely, an iron nail, ten fingers long, shall be thrust red hot into his mouth. But he have another choice : live in the forest.

14. If a Shudra arrogantly presumes to preach religion to Brahmins, the king shall have poured burning oil in his mouth and ears.

15. A Shudra who has an intercourse with a woman of the higher caste guarded or unguarded shall be punished n the following manner ; if she was unguarded, he loses the offending part; if she was guarded then he should be put to death and his property confiscated."

16. A Brahman may compel a Shudra, whether bought or unbought, to do servile work for he is created by the creator to be the slave of a Brahmana.

17. No Shudra should have property of his own, He should have nothing of his own. The existence of a wealthy Shudra is bad for the Brahmins. A Brahman may take possession of the goods of a Shudra.

18. A Brahman may seize without hesitation, if he be in distress for his subsistence, the goods of his Shudra. The Shudra can have only one occupation.

19. A Shudra who wants to just fill his stomach may serve a Vaishya. If he wants a permanent means of living he can serve a Kshatriya. But if he wants to go to heaven or wants higher or superior birth in the next generation he must serve a Brahmin.

20. The most sacred duty of a Shudra is to serve the Brahmins, always, reciting the words "Brahman" with utmost devotion. Such a Shudra will get salvation. Otherwise he will die a worst death and will go to the worst hell. 21. But let a (Shudra) serve Brahmans, either for the sake of heaven, or with a view to both (this life and the next) for he who is called the servant of a Brahman thereby gains all his ends.

22. The service of Brahmans alone is declared (to be) an excellent occupation for a Shudra for whatever else besides this he may perform will bear him no fruit.

23. Brahmins to give Shudras food leftovers, old torn clothes, spoiled grain and old utensils

24. No superfluous collection of wealth must be made by a Shudra, even though he has power to make it, since a servile man, who has amassed riches, becomes proud, and, by his insolence or neglect, gives pain to Brahmins.

25. A Brahmin shall never beg from a Shudra, property for (performing) a sacrifice i.e., for religious purposes. All marriages with the Shudra were prescribed. Marriage with a woman belonging to any of three other classes was forbidden.

9. A Brahmana who is only a Brahman by descent i.e., one who has neither studied nor performed any other act required by the Vedas may, at the king’s pleasure, interpret the law to him i.e., act as the judge, but never a Shudra .

10. The Kingdom of that monarch, who looks on while a Shudra settles the law, will sink low like a cow in the morass.

11. Any Brahmin, who enslaves or tries to enslave a Brahmin, is liable for a penalty of no less than 600 PANAS. A Brahmin can order a Shudra to serve him without any remuneration because the Shudra is created by Brahma to serve the Brahmins. Even if a Brahmin frees a Shudra from slavery the Shudra continues to be a slave as he is created for slavery. Nobody has the right to free him.

12. A Shudra who insults a twice born man with gross invectives shall have his tongue cut out; for he is of low origin.

13. If Shudra mentions the names and castes of the (twice born) with contumely, an iron nail, ten fingers long, shall be thrust red hot into his mouth. But he have another choice : live in the forest.

14. If a Shudra arrogantly presumes to preach religion to Brahmins, the king shall have poured burning oil in his mouth and ears.

15. A Shudra who has an intercourse with a woman of the higher caste guarded or unguarded shall be punished n the following manner ; if she was unguarded, he loses the offending part; if she was guarded then he should be put to death and his property confiscated."

16. A Brahman may compel a Shudra, whether bought or unbought, to do servile work for he is created by the creator to be the slave of a Brahmana.

17. No Shudra should have property of his own, He should have nothing of his own. The existence of a wealthy Shudra is bad for the Brahmins. A Brahman may take possession of the goods of a Shudra.

18. A Brahman may seize without hesitation, if he be in distress for his subsistence, the goods of his Shudra. The Shudra can have only one occupation.

19. A Shudra who wants to just fill his stomach may serve a Vaishya. If he wants a permanent means of living he can serve a Kshatriya. But if he wants to go to heaven or wants higher or superior birth in the next generation he must serve a Brahmin.

20. The most sacred duty of a Shudra is to serve the Brahmins, always, reciting the words "Brahman" with utmost devotion. Such a Shudra will get salvation. Otherwise he will die a worst death and will go to the worst hell.

21. But let a (Shudra) serve Brahmans, either for the sake of heaven, or with a view to both (this life and the next) for he who is called the servant of a Brahman thereby gains all his ends.

22. The service of Brahmans alone is declared (to be) an excellent occupation for a Shudra for whatever else besides this he may perform will bear him no fruit.

23. Brahmins to give Shudras food leftovers, old torn clothes, spoiled grain and old utensils

24. No superfluous collection of wealth must be made by a Shudra, even though he has power to make it, since a servile man, who has amassed riches, becomes proud, and, by his insolence or neglect, gives pain to Brahmins.

25. A Brahmin shall never beg from a Shudra, property for (performing) a sacrifice i.e., for religious purposes. All marriages with the Shudra were prescribed

Laws of the Manusmriti for Women

1. Women are liers, corrupt, greedy, and unvirtuous.

2.Even for a woman, the performance of the sanskaras are necessary and they should be performed. But they should be performed without uttering the Veda Mantras." 3. It is the nature of women to seduce men in this (world); the wise are never unguarded in the company of males. 4.For women are able to lead astray in (this) world not only a fool, but even a learned man, and (to make) him a slave of desire and anger."

5. One should not sit in a lonely place with one's mother, sister or daughter, for the senses are powerful, and master even a learned man."

6. A Brahmin male by virtue of his birth becomes the first husband of all women in the universe.

7. By a girl, by a young woman, or even by an aged one, nothing must be done independently, even in her own house."

8. In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, when her lord is dead to her sons; a woman must never be independent.

9. She must not seek to separate herself from her father, husband or son; by leaving them. She would make them both (her own and her husband's) family incompatible.

10. A Brahman must never eat food given at a sacrifice performed by a woman.

11. Sacrifices performed by women are inauspicious and not acceptable to god. They should therefore be avoided.

12. She must always be cheerful, clever in management of her household affairs, careful in cleaning her utensils and economical in expenditure.

13. The husband who wedded her with sacred mantras is always a source of happiness to his wife, both in season and out of season, in this world and in the next.

14. Though destitute or virtuous, or seeking pleasure elsewhere, or devoid of good qualities, yet a husband must be constantly worshipped as a god by a faithful wife.

15. No sacrifice, no vow, no fast must be performed by women, apart from their husbands. If a wife obeys her husband, she will for that reason alone be exalted in heaven.

16. At her pleasure let her (i.e. widow) enunciate her body, by living voluntarily on pure flowers, roots and fruits, but let her not when her lord is deceased, even pronounce the name of another man.

17. But a widow, who from a wish to bear children, slights her deceased husband by marrying again, brings disgrace on herself here below, and shall be excluded from the seat of her lord (in heaven).

18. A woman must always maintain her virtue and surrender her body to her husband only, ever if she is married off to an ugly person or even a leper.

19. Through their passion for men, through their mutable temper, through their natural heartlessness, they become disloyal towards their husbands, however, carefully they may be guarded in this (world).

20. Knowing their disposition, which the Lord of Creatures laid in them at the creation, to be such, (every) man should most strenuously exert himself to guard them.

21. When creating them, Manu allotted to women (a love of their) bed, (of heart) seat and (of) ornament, impure desires, wrath, dishonesty, malice, and bad conduct.

22. Killing of a woman, a Shudra or an atheist is not sinful. Woman is an embodiment of the worst desires, hatred, deceit, jealousy and bad character. Women should never be given freedom.

23. Women have no right to study the Vedas. That is why their Sanskars are performed without Veda Mantras. women have no knowledge of religion because they have no right to know the Vedas. The uttering of Veda Mantras, they are as unclean as untruth is."

24. The husband is declared to be one with the wife, which means there could be no separation once a woman is married.

25. A wife, a son and a slave, they three are declared to have no property: the wealth which they earn is (acquired)for him to whom they belong.

26. None of the acts of women can be taken as good and reasonable.

27. Day and night women must be kept in dependence by males (of their families), and, if they attach themselves to sexual enjoyments, they must be kept under one's control.

28. Her father protects (her) in childhood, her husband protects (her) in youth, and her sons protect (her) in old age; a woman is never fit for independence."

29. Women must particularly be guarded against evil inclinations, however trifling (they may appear); for, if they are not guarded, they will bring sorrow on to families."

30. Considering that the highest duty of all castes even weak husbands (must) scribe to guard their wives.

31. A woman shall not perform the daily sacrifices prescribed by the Vedas. Then according to if she does it, she will go to hell. From-

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How to protect a biased & Non neutral article from editing? A very interesting example.

Some wiki administrator adopt a very different technique to protect a biased & Non neutral articles. They create a sock account ( another account) and start vandalism of article themselves. Delete text without any thought in mind and after half an hour they login to their real account(now they are wiki administrator] start using template for protection of page. They write something [ vandalism, excessive OR, disruption, sockpuppetry].Pgae is protected for 2 months or 1 year.

If you do not believe what i wrote please check this page as on 14:04, 24 April 2010

Text added with number of reliable references mostly Google Books about widely talked controversies in Manusmriti.User or wiki admin SpacemanSpiff used sock account name Shiladitya78, deleted some text and protected this article removing Laws of Manusmriti for women and Shudra.Later Shiladitya78 blocked indefinitely.

--117.192.176.152 (talk) 16:32, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

You are claiming that an admin is using a sock account. Take it to WP:ANI and/or WP:UC. Thanks. --dab (𒁳) 20:06, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

The British Raj Worsened the Caste System

From page 635 of The Earth and Its Peoples, Third Edition:

The British and Indian elites danced sometimes in close partnership, sometimes in apparent opposition. But the ordinary people of India suffered. Women of every status, members of subordinate Hindu castes, the “untouchables” and “tribals” outside the caste system, and the poor generally experienced less benefit from the British reforms and much new oppression from the taxes and “traditions” that exalted their superiors’ status.

Hokie Tech (talk) 14:43, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Hirdip, 16 April 2011

1. Origin of the World (1.1-119)

This section is empty. Patrick Olivelle's "The Law Code of Manu" : Intruduction- page xxx. Please remove the request to help. If you need proof, let me know, I can send you a copy.

Hirdip (talk) 14:22, 16 April 2011 (UTC)