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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 46.246.178.119 (talk) at 09:12, 15 July 2011 (→Edit request from 46.246.253.148, 14 July 2011). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Edit request from 87.50.38.195, 24 April 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Famous Freemasons. Gotthold Ephraim Lessing. German writer, initiated at the Lodge of Three Roses in Hamburg [1771].

Kind regards

Kim Lessing

87.50.38.195 (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Reaper Eternal (talk) 00:46, 25 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 87.50.38.195, 30 April 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

I would like that Gotthold Ephraim Lessing is mentioned as a famous person that made a difference in the early 1800 th century. His is mentioned on a vast and very well documented page on Wikipedia

87.50.38.195 (talk) 19:52, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - I note that the Gotthold Ephraim Lessing article says he was a Mason, but that information is lacking a source in that article (I have tagged it to request a citation). We would be happy to add him to this list if he was a Mason, but we can not do so without a reliable source that says he was a Mason (and, unfortunately, other Wikipedia articles are not considered reliable ... we need a reliable source that is outside of Wikipedia). Blueboar (talk) 21:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Please Add The Following Puerto Rican Freemasons

Greetings,

Please Add The Following Puerto Rican Freemasons:

Eugenio María de Hostos, Federico Degetau, José Celso Barbosa, Jose de Diego, Luis Muñoz Rivera, Manuel Fernández Juncos, Ramón Emeterio Betances, Santiago Iglesias Pantin, Santiago R. Palmer, Manuel Zeno Gandía, Rosendo Matienzo Cintrón

Reference: http://www.granlogiasoberanadepr.org/GLSPR/Masoneria.html

WebPage of the "Grand Lodge of Puerto Rico"

Cordially,

Joshualeonricardo (talk) 16:53, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The source only has a list of names, with no other proof of membership, nor is there any claim to notability asserted in that article that would indicate they should be included. MSJapan (talk) 19:04, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MSJ, I think we should take a second look at this... the reference given is the web site of the Grand Lodge of Puerto Rico (recognized by most of the US Grand Lodges and UGLE as regular). We include other Masons on this list on the basis of similar lists on other Grand Lodge websites (hell, the BC&Y website that we use for over half of our entries is just a list of names with no proof of membership)... so what makes this website different? As for notability, most of them have articles. Blueboar (talk) 20:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On further review, the same site also claims Gandhi and Isaac Newton were Masons. The Grand Lodge of India denies the former [1], and the latter has no evidence to support it. Some of their other claims may be accurate, but 2 out of 10-12 is too high an error rate for my liking. Therefore, I think that without a third-party source, it is not possible to verify the claims made about other potential members strictly from the GLPR site alone because it does not meet RS. MSJapan (talk) 22:06, 6 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Ah... yes, that does call into question the site's reliability. Never mind. Blueboar (talk) 03:24, 7 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 74.231.148.194, 11 May 2011

I'm fairly certain that Jack Kemp (Bob Dole's running mate when he ran for president) is also a Mason, but I have no details as to what lodge. Another lodge brother having served at the Grand Lodge level advised me of his affiliation.

66.162.203.18 (talk) 21:20, 11 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. We need a lot more than "I'm fairly certain" or "I was told by another brother". Blueboar (talk) 01:04, 12 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Edit request, 15 May 2011

Although I personally believe that Suleyman Demirel was a mason, he presented a document saying that he is not a mason. Some say this document was fake, some say that the document is genuine. There is a conflict about this issue. Therefore his name should be deleted from the list. Here is one of the pages about the issue: http://www.sonsayfa.com/Haberler/Guncel/Masonlarin-Suleyman-Demirel-kavgasi-138319.html. There are many sources talking about this debate.


Unfortunately the source you give for questioning this is in Turkish (which most of us who edit this page can not read). This does not mean that the source is unreliable... only that this makes it difficult to accurately judge it's reliability against the the cited reliable source (which says that says Demirel was a Mason), ie how much weight to give it. Could you tell us something more about who/what sonsayafa.com is? Blueboar (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]


sonsayfa is not a person of course. it is a web site giving news. that site is not an expert on freemasonry. the web site makes news about every type of topics. however the main point is there are many websites and books saying that Suleyman Demirel is not a freemason. I can give the names of these websites and books if required.
Not that this particularly helps, but: http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sonsayfa.com%2FHaberler%2FGuncel%2FMasonlarin-Suleyman-Demirel-kavgasi-138319.html--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:26, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from Mattmullins55, 23 May 2011

Adding professional baseball umpire Matthew Z. Mullins (1985- ) Grand Lodge of Arizona, Orient of Arizona, Valley of Phoenix

Mattmullins55 (talk) 05:47, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: All people on this list need 1) their own wikipedia article (so you'd have to make one, and be sure to show how/why the person is notable), and 2) some sort of reference verifying that they are/were freemasons. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:01, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Since when do "all people on this list need their own Wikipedia article"? Wikipedia requires notability, but Wikipedia is not all-inclusive and all notables do not have articles. kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 23:25, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We reached a consensus on this a while back (you will have to search through the archives for it). The idea was to make it clear that we are not listing every Freemason... ever. We don't want non-notable people listed. And by far the easiest way to determine whether a person is notable or not is to see if there is already at least a stub article about the person (ie if the person's name is blue-linked, we can assume notability... and if it goes back to being a red-link, we know an AFD determined that the person is not notable). It isn't an uncommon inclusion criteria in list articles, especially those where inclusion is potentially contentious (Wikipedia:Manual of Style (stand-alone lists) discusses this). Blueboar (talk) 13:30, 25 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the concept but the rule is just simply too strict as stated - being in Wikipedia isn't the test of notability. It can't be - you have to be notable first. If you're notable you can be in Wikipedia, eether as an article, or as a list entry, or both; it's just logic. Nevertheless if the consensus is that notability comes first, then an article, and then. only after both of those, a list entry, I bow to the requirements of the List Requirements Cabal.  :) kcylsnavS{screechharrass} 02:22, 26 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A Question on Notability

If a person is notable enough to have a Wikipedia article, especially one that has been rated as B quality or better, and there is undisbutable proof the person was a freemason, they should be included in the list, yes?  Eric Cable  |  Talk  13:56, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Depends... what do you mean by "undisputable proof"? If you mean "I have found a reliable source that says he was a Mason", then yes, we can (and should) add him... if you mean "I've done Original research, and can prove he was a Mason"... then no, we can't. Blueboar (talk) 14:21, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I'd also point out that article rating has nothing to do with anything - it's relatively subjective and somewhat mutable. Notability is per the relevant policy, and sources must satisfy the relevant policies and guidelines on WP which apply to them. MSJapan (talk) 15:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
We have a fairly clear consensus on the inclusion criteria for this list ... a) to show that the person is notable enough to be included, an article on the person should exist before adding the person to the list, b) to show that the person is a Mason, a reliable source (that explicitly states the person is/was a Mason) must be provided when the person is added to the list. I think that is clear enough. Blueboar (talk) 16:22, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
For example, William Polk... This source [2] is the Grand Lodge of North Carolina saying "this guy was our Grand Master from 1799 to 1802. Not good enough? Ok, this is confirmed by this source: [3] (page 114). Finally, there's this:[[File:William Polk Col Sig.jpg]] which is where to good folks at the Hiram Lodge, No. 40 in Raleigh made me a copy of their two-hundred and eleven year old charter which bears the man's signature. If this is not "undisputable proof" then I'd like to know what is. Eric Cable  |  Talk  23:00, 23 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Unless there is some evidence that there were two relatively prominent people named William Polk living in North Carolina in the 1790s (ie some evidence that Col. William Polk was not the same man as Grand Master William Polk), I would say that those sources are exactly what we would want.... go ahead and add him to our list. (Note... we don't require proof... we require reliable sources... which you have.) Blueboar (talk) 00:45, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Well, the only surviving painting of Colonel William Polk is hanging in the NC Grand Lodge with the caption "Grand Master William Polk" so I think we're safe on that. Eric Cable  |  Talk  01:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, I half expected you guys to say "concluding someone was a mason because they were Grand Master is orignal synthesis and therefore not good enough." That would make as much sense as saying "concluding someone is a mason because you have proof they are a shriner is original synthesis." No, I haven't gotten over that. Eric Cable  |  Talk  01:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is a huge difference between belonging to the Shrine and being a Grand Master. For example, a person might demit from their blue lodge and yet remain a member of the shrine ... but to be elected Grand Master you need to be a Mason in good standing. Blueboar (talk) 01:43, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
smacks forehead Eric Cable  |  Talk  02:56, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Eric, if your whole reason for continuing to edit the page is just to be POINTY, then I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for some admin intervention, and while you may be being facetious in your earlier comments, I most certainly am not, and I do not see any implied humor therein. So, you can either admit you were wrong and drop the Shrine thing once and for all, or leave the page. You know what the criteria are for inclusion, and there is no need to have a long conversation over each one just so you can be "right". MSJapan (talk) 07:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
That is a bit of an over reaction, MSJ. Eric has not been editing the list in a pointy or disruptive manner. Sure, he made a slightly pointy comment here on a talk page, but we all do that from time to time... that's allowed as long as long as you don't push it too far (which he hasn't). Blueboar (talk) 12:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Boar, you're the man. Eric Cable  |  Talk  19:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
MSJapan, why do you think you are the owner of this page? Why is it that YOU get to decide what the standard for inclusion is? If an admin were to intervene, I might have to ask them the same questions. It is not my goal to be disruptive here, but if I were to die tomorrow, I would ask them to put the following on my headstone: “The insistence that proof that someone is a Shriner does not prove they are a mason is insanity.” Peace. Eric Cable  |  Talk  19:46, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Eric... now you are the one overreacting by making things personal. MSJ was hardly the only one to give you essentially same answer on the Shriner issue. We understand you are not happy with the consensus... No need to push it. Blueboar (talk) 20:34, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, let me be clear. I am not arguing about the Shriner issue. Those of you who 'control' this list have made your decision. What I said above was a snide comment and nothing more. I have no delusions that you gentlemen will change your position on this, even though, in my opinion, it’s an incorrect position. MSJ made it personal when he threatened admin intervention. That’s all. Have a good day. Eric Cable  |  Talk  20:53, 24 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Dreyfuss

Mr. Dreyfuss was recently added with a reference to Chris Hodapp's blog. Normally, I would call Hodapp a good reference, but in this case, he is not... Hodapp says he got his information from a recent addition to the Wikipedia article on Dreyfuss (an unreferenced addition, as it turns out... one that has subsequently been removed). This sets up a "circular reference" (Wikipeida cites Hodapp, who cites Wikipedia). Without a proper citation he is essentially repeating rumor.

I don't find the idea that Dreyfuss was made a "Mason at sight" all that surprising, but we need confirmation and a solidly reliable source before we can actually say he was. Especially since we are dealing with a living person. Blueboar (talk) 14:17, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We should probably remove him from the list for the time being. I did a quick Yahoo search for "Dreyfus Mason on sight" and "Dreyfus Grand Lodge of DC" and found no references to this event other than 1) an invitation to members of the Grand Lodge of DC to attend a special event with Dreyfus as the special guest and 2) Hodapp's blog. It seems that something happened, but until we have more reliable references to exactly what happened, we should remove the listing. --Taivo (talk) 14:56, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah... I guess you are right. Per WP:BLP, we should not repeat rumor. We can always return him to the list when/if we get confirmation. Blueboar (talk) 15:05, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It's ironic, but if Bro. Hodapp had not been so honest about his source, we would have accepted his word without much question. --Taivo (talk) 15:12, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah... but that's why I consider his blog to be reliable. He does cite his sources. Blueboar (talk) 15:32, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Apparently there is now photographic evidence here of Bro. Dreyfuss wearing a Masonic apron. Bro. Hodapp is no longer quoting Wikipedia in this matter. --Taivo (talk) 04:24, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent... then I have no more objection to citing his blog. Blueboar (talk) 12:44, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 46.12.16.226, 20 June 2011

Physicist and Mathematician David Brewster was a freemason.

46.12.16.226 (talk) 23:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done:... we would need a reliable source to add him. Blueboar (talk) 03:15, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shaquille O'Neal

Shaq is listed as a member of a Prince Hall lodge in Pomona, California, but if this report is correct, then he was not already a Master Mason, else he would not have needed to be made a Mason on sight. --Taivo (talk) 04:40, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There was a lot of controversy over when and where he was made a Mason, but I'm inclined to go with Hodapp. PeRshGo (talk) 05:10, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Hodapp is correct. MSJapan (talk) 05:21, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree... I will also note that the info about Shaq belonging to a CA lodge was unsourced... I have corrected the entry and cited Hodapp. Blueboar (talk) 12:47, 21 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

edit request

CJ Langenhoven was a member of Cango Lodge 2088 EC in Oudtshoorn. Kingstonp (talk) 14:35, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It would not surprise me at all. If you can provide us with a source, we would be happy to add him. Blueboar (talk) 15:07, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 108.83.205.6, 8 July 2011

I Am a Freemasons in Raleigh,NC my name is Defphone Bundy Please add to list lodge name is New Born of Selma,NC 108.83.205.6 (talk) 01:37, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jnorton7558 (talk) 02:16, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Aside from the failure of the GNG requirements, I can find no reference to said lodge in said place, and it is somewhat suspicious in that it has no number. MSJapan (talk) 04:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from Maxgold211, 9 July 2011

Please add my Grandfather Dr. Maxwell Gold, Master of Masonic Lodge No. 225 http://articles.sfgate.com/2003-08-20/bay-area/17505383_1_wrestling-chiropractor-active-duty


Maxgold211 (talk) 00:07, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not Done... please don't take this personally, but I question whether your grandfather would be considered notable enough to be added to this list. I suggest you read Wikipedia's WP:Notability and WP:Notability (sports) guidelines. We essentially require that the people on this list have their own stand alone Wikipedia article before we add them. Blueboar (talk) 02:50, 9 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 46.246.253.148, 14 July 2011

The Baron Eames was a freemason as stated to his article.--46.246.253.148 (talk) 10:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

46.246.253.148 (talk) 10:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not done - While the bio article does say he was a Freemason, the information is not cited to a reliable source. I have requested a citation at that article. Blueboar (talk) 12:39, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 46.246.253.148, 14 July 2011

There are many people who appear in references 311, 313 and 315, have an entry to wikipedia and are not in the list can someone put them?--46.246.253.148 (talk) 17:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

46.246.253.148 (talk) 17:40, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not done - Lodges aren't cited in the archives on ref 311, so those other people cannot be added. Our reference requirements need a Lodge citation at minimum, and not one of those men has a Lodge joining date, which the Lodge should have. As for 313, many of those people don't meet the GNG, and many of those that do don't have usable sourcing. Ref. 315 is not in English, so I have no idea who those people are, or why they are notable. MSJapan (talk) 20:59, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
As for references 311 and 313: If they are not so reliable they must be deleted from the article. As for reference 315: If you see, it is split in two areas. The first is about Serbians and the second about non-Serbians. I went and checked that all non-Serbians have an entry in Wikipedia and only three Serbians have NOT an entry in Wikipedia.--46.246.253.148 (talk) 21:51, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

Lacking Professionals

There are many people who are known only because of being freemasons e.g. Charles Radclyffe, John Mylne. Why aren't they in the list?--46.246.253.148 (talk) 18:00, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Radclyffe is notable for being a peer more so than for being a Freemason (in fact, there's no citation for that), and Mylne was an actual stonemason who died 50 years before modern Freemasonry was even organized. Therefore, neither qualifies for the list. MSJapan (talk) 18:46, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Post a list and I'll go through them. MSJapan (talk) 20:49, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I found many from time to time in categories such as Hermetic Order of Golden Dawn, Hermetism, Occultism etc. If you go in this categories you will find many of them.--46.246.253.148 (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Huh... good catch on Anderson... I'll add him. Thanks. Blueboar (talk) 22:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If you see in Anderson there is a category named People known for their contribution to Freemasonry, and is exactly what we are looking for.--46.246.253.148 (talk) 22:42, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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