User talk:Nora lives

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Open Library - search

Hello Din. I just noticed that they seem to have brought back the powerful search function at the Open Library -> [1]. I was waiting for that. :) --Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:42, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, Brianann! Thank you so much! I'd all but forgotten about it. I think this will be a major resource for me, which should be better than Google books for the out of copyright material. DinDraithou (talk) 15:56, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Kings et al

I would be in favour of the entire family being termed Mac Carthaigh Reagh, instead of the MacCarthy spelling.

The question of when Gaelic-Irish rulers ceased to be kings and became mere chieftains or 'captains of their nation' is a vexed one. I have found the following three books to be lifesavers:

• A New History of Ireland IX:Maps, Genealogies, Lists, 1984, ISBN 0 19 821745 5
• Fom Kings to Warlords:The Changing Political Structure of Gaelic Ireland in the Later Middle Ages, Katherine Simms, 1987, ISBN 0 85115 420 4.
• Early Irish Kingship and Succession, Bart Jaski, 2000, ISBN 1 85182 488 x.

Though not germane to the late Irish medieval era, Francis John Byrne's Irish Kings and High Kings is indespensible for any student of Irish history. But you are probably familiar with all of the above.

I follow ANHI IX in terming the rulers of the larger territories kings, even into the 16th or early 17th century. For Tir Eoghain, IX lists "Kings of Tir Eogain and Earls of Tyrone, 1185-1616" but terms the O'Neills of Clandeboye merely "Lord of Clann aodha Buidhe, 1347-c.1553." Territories explictly listed by IX as having Kings in this era are

• Tír Eógain, ("1185-1616")
• Tír Conaill ("c.1201-1608"),
• Oirghialla ("to 1590",
• Fir Manach ("c.1282-1625"),
• Leinster ("1171-1603"),
• Ui Failghe (a.1051-c.1556),
• "O Briain, Kings and Earls of Thomond, 1168-1657",
• "Mac Carthaigh Mor, Kings of Desmond and Earl of Clancare, 1118-?1640",
• Connacht ("1183-1474"),
• Ui Maine (a.1221-c.1611
• Breifne, a.1128-1605
• Muintir Maoilmhordha (east Breifne, "a.1161-1607")

All the remaining territories refered to in this section of IX (Mac Ui Neill Bhuidhe, Mac Ui Neill Bhuidhe Iochtar, Mac Carthaigh Muscraighe, Mac Carthaigh Riabhach, and the three O Conchobhairs', it styles as "Lords".

This of course still omits significant territories such as Umaill, Luighne Connacht, Osraighe, Annaly, Ui Mail, Moylurg, Ui Fiachrach Muaidhe, so we are left to our own devices in designating their rulers kings or chiefs. In practise, they were all termed ri but many were subject to a king of greater power. My cut-off point for all but the most powerful is the 1400's, when even Connacht ceased to have a king. I then change the designation to Chief of the Name. For examples, see Kings of Iar Connacht, Kings of Ui Fiachrach Muaidhe, Kings of Sliabh Lugha.

I note from my own personal experience that, even now in 2010, there is still a King of Tory Island and a King of the Claddagh, if only titular/ceremonial. So, in communities such as the above, both of which were very insular in (or just out of) living memory, an echo of the old institutions continues, though in highly modified form. Fergananim (talk) 02:04, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Uí Chairbre

From Leabhar na nGenealach, volume II, pp.592-595:

• 633.2 Of the genealogy of Uí Chairbre Ceann Faoladh, from whom are Uí Chinn Fhaoladh, s. Dubh Dhá Bhaireann s. Aodh Rón s. Eóghanán (or Eóghan) s. Crunnmhaol s. Aodh s. Aonghus s. Laipe (or Lapa) s. Oilill Ceannfhada s. earc s. Cairbre Eabha, from whom Uí Chairbre are named, s. Brian s. Fiacha Fidhgheinit.

• 633.3 Ó Cairbre still, i.e. Ó Donnabháin Riocard s. Murchadh s. Tadhg s. Cathal s. An Crom s. Maol Ruanaidh s. Raghnall s. Ainéislis s. Murchadh s. Amhlaoibh s. Cathal s. Donnabhán, from whom are Uí Donnabhán, s. Cathal s. Uainighe s. Cathal s. Ceann Faoladh, from whom are Uí Chinn Fhaoladh, s. Dubh Dhá Bhaireann, etc, s. Aodh Rón.

• 633.4: Domhnall s. Domhnall s. Tadhg s. Diarmuid s. Raghnall s. Conchabhar s. Murchadh s. Tadhg s. Cathal s. An Crom, etc.

• 633.5: Domhnall, Maol Eachlainn, and Diarmuid the three sons of Raghnall s. Tadhg s. Cathal. s. An Crom.

• 633.6: Donnchadh s. Diarmuid s. Aodh s. Conchabhar s. Tadhg.

• 633.7 The progeny of Lochlainn Ó Donnabháin Donnchadh s. Diarmuid s. Cathal s. Donnchadh of Loch Crot s. Lochlainn, from whom are Clann Lochlainn, s. An Crom.

• 633.8: The three sons of An Crom: Cathal, Ainéislis, and Lochlainn.

• 634.1 Cathal had two sons: Tadhg and An Giolla Riabhach, and they both held [the] chieftaincy.

• 634.s: Ainéislis s. An Crom had four sons: Donnchadh Mór, Riocard, Baltar, and Raghnall. Clann Raghnaill is from that Raghnall, Clann Bhaltair from that Baltar, and Clann Riocaird from that Riocard.

634.3 gives the genealogy of Uí Bhrillrin from a Billrean mac Dubhartach, gr-gr-gr-gr-grandson of Ceann Faoladh mac Dubh Dhá Bhaireann. However, it is only traced down a further three generations to a Maol Ruanaidh mac Suthan mac Eichthighearn mac Billrean. The same section mention Ui Chonaill of Gabair from Connall mac Ceann Faoladh. This Conall is placed as gr-gr-gr grandfather of Billrean.

All these are listed in the Eóghanacht section of LnG, just before it begins on the Dál Cais.

I previously utterly overlooked the following reference on pp.46-47 of volume III, LnG, at 769.3. It reads Donnchadh s Maol Seachlainn defeated the Lochlannaigh and not more than [one] fugitive of them escaped Earl Oitir Dubh (my emphasis) came with a force of one hundred ships to Port Láirge to exact a royal tribute. Ireland was filled with Viking fleets, i.e. the fleet of Biorn, the fleet of Odonn, of Grisí, of Suatghar, of Laghmann, of Earbhalbh, of Sitric, of Buidhne, of Beirnín, of Na Crioslaigh, of Toirbear Ruadh, of Snímhín, of Suainín, of Barún, of Mílidh Lua, of An Inghean ruadh; every evil that Ireland suffered before that was as nothing, for they spread over Ireland and built cities and castles, and they showed reverence to no one and they killed its [=Ireland's] kings and they banished overseas its queens and nobles (?). A fleet, the likes of which had never been [seen], came with Íomhar Mór gs. (grandson) Íomhar, high-king of the Vikings, and with his three sons, Duibhgeann, Cú Allaidh, and Aralt, and it captured Inis Siobhthonn on Cuan Luimnigh, and it seized hostages for the Vikings. It continues another ten lines saying what bad fellas the Vikings were.

Yes, I must have been tired to miss all of the above. Fergananim (talk) 10:38, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Doubling of t's (Bissett family)

Hi Din. Added a category on your Bisset's (Bissett's) piece. I wouldn't attach too much importance to the single or double 't.' The Anglo-Norman names that ended in 'et' often appeared in all sorts of forms in medieval documents. Bisset might have been Byset, or Bysett, or even Bisay, or other variants. In general, as the Norman-French forms faded, the extra 't' generally came to be added, as that's how it was pronounced. (The English pronunciation, for instance, would have changed the 'ay' sound to 'et,' as happened with 'claret' or 'valet' or 'filet.') Good luck with the page. I'll be checking in from time to time. Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 01:46, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

This I was aware of, but thank you. In fact in Ireland the -t- actually came to be voiced here and there, and this affected its appearance in some English documents. What you'll also find is that the name may only superficially appear Norman French and could derive from some Greek form. The problem for the moment is that there are any number of people around the world, especially Americans, who aren't sure whether they belong to the Scottish or Irish Bissetts. Many have come to think they're French now. DinDraithou (talk) 02:02, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

I saw your earlier mention of a possible Greek connection, but respectfully, the chances of that are extremely remote. I've done some work on these early Anglo-Norman families. While the Normans were largely the descendants of Viking raiders, there were other haplogroups present in Normandy at the time, and some of those folks were undoubtedly incorporated into what we now call 'the Normans.' My guess is that the occasional 'offbeat' haplogroup will show up in the Norman Y-Dna cocktail. But until there are better testing results from Normandy (and France), we have no way to know. MarmadukePercy (talk) 02:38, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Duald Mac Firbis did not speculate and was reporting a tradition current in Ireland some period of time before 1650. It appears in his pedigree of the MacDonnells so they will be his source, but they probably report the tradition among some of the Bissetts themselves because coming over with William the Conqueror is mentioned. O'Donovan thought this might be read "to Scotland with William the Lion" and those who aren't even aware of Mac Firbis would agree, but this doesn't change English or Norman or French to Greek. If you ask me it is possible the Mac Eoin Bissetts invented this, or it was invented for them, to help explain the extent of their Gaelicization, making them something more exotic, possibly with the intended meaning of having a superior pedigree to the average Normans. Have a look at the De Barry family, who acquired a Gaelic pedigree. The Geraldines became Florentines. Yet at least one scholar I have found so far has taken the tradition the Bissetts were Greek seriously.[2] After discussing this in the article I will mention the E1b1b but not go much further. Hopefully you're not following another editor in mistaking good research for original research in this case. I recently received from that person one of my very least favourite replies in all my history at Wikipedia, an incompetent insult or dismissal of sorts from someone who didn't know what he was looking at, and am still a little angry about it. DinDraithou (talk) 03:33, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

Bissett is an interesting name, as it has several possible origins. There was an Anglo-Norman family of the name. It was not territorial and did not derive from a village, but instead derived from 'bisset,' a diminutive of the Old French bisse, or someone who dealt in linens. There is also a different English and Scottish derivation for the name, from Middle English bis, a dark fur used in the trim of garments.[3] So this name can be Norman, but isn't necessarily always Norman. I don't know enough about the family in question to know in which instances it's likely or not. And many of these families who have Norman-sounding names often, especially if there's some money attached, have quite the pedigree, including the requisite one 'who came over with the the Conqueror.' Bernard Burke particularly, as you know, was given to that persuasion. In this case, I think it's probable that some Bissetts come from different lines, with some tied to the Conquest and some not. A significant sign (but not foolproof) is whether the family has the haplotype signature of a classic 'invader' haplogroup, common in Vikings, such as I1 or R1a1. But, again, that's no guarantee. (The Scandinavian Vikings were overlaid on a Gallo-Roman-Frankish population in Normandy, which was heavy in R1b. In addition, William I engaged forces from Flanders, Brittany and elsewhere.) All I'm saying is that while many sterling pedigrees boast the requisite 'Conquest connection,' not all are to be believed. Very few, obviously, come with a complete paper trail, as you know. Make no mistake, though, I am not disparaging your research in any fashion. I think it's fascinating. I'll be interested to see where you take it. I do think, though, that you ought to give some consideration to the haplogroup question, as it can prove helpful in divining origins – not foolproof, but helpful. Take care and best of luck with it, Din. MarmadukePercy (talk) 10:16, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

You've obviously already looked at this Bissett (and variants) surname study.[4] MarmadukePercy (talk) 10:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

You haven't examined the article carefully, where I already have it linked. I've known about that project for weeks and it's the reason I'm talking about E1b1b1. As far as I1 and R1a1, no, they don't help at all because the Anglo-Saxons carried plenty of the former and the Norwegians plenty of the latter along with some of the former. Both were active in Britain for centuries before the Norman conquest of England. A recent school has been arguing there were centuries of contact between the Norse and Gaels+Picts before the "Viking" raids began. Great numbers of the Vikings, and thus the Normans, and earlier the Anglo-Saxons, were also R1b. It looks like the majority of the remainder of our Bissetts right now are R1b, of two subclades currently, excluding the properly French Bessette, whose is different again. And there is one I1, and one G. So whatever, meaning there's not much to say right now. It's too early to say how strong the E1b1b1 will stay. All I can say is that it's currently leading. DinDraithou (talk) 19:29, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Btw I say "our" as in our subject. I am unrelated to them. DinDraithou (talk) 19:32, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

Marmaduke, I'm sorry. The people I grew up around were ignorant and not very bright, and because I look and sound like them, complete with a blank or vacant look I usually can't help, people tend to think I should be stupid too and just enjoy my look. So I consistently overreact when I suspect someone may not think I get whatever it is. My emotional range I think is what is limited. I don't know.

You've brought a lot to this discussion. My understanding of French is limited and I don't know the rules of Old French at all. Feel free to contribute to the article. I don't want you to think I don't want you around. I do. Clan Bissett has more "room" if you want that. Apparently this Battle Abbey Roll is a problem. But we do have early Bissetts documented in Scotland, courtiers, little more than a century after the Conquest. I have found it suggested they arrived before William the Lion, better explaining their extensive landholdings, but will have to find the source again. DinDraithou (talk) 23:38, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

No worries, thanks for your message. I've been tied up elsewhere, and haven't given this the attention it deserves. Let me have a look at the various entries, and some background, and I'll get back to you. It's a very interesting entry and topic. Have a nice weekend. Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 02:09, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Thank you! I hope the rest of your weekend is nice too. I'm looking forward to what you have and will find. The Norman experience is something many can't relate to, but I'm trying. There is a lot I don't know and the more I understand the better the article will be. I used to be in the camp denying their accomplishments and legitimacy, which is particularly strong in certain Irish (and English) circles, but left it some time this year. Part of it was discovering that my O'Donovan ancestors weren't as wholesomely Gaelic as their descendants have been claiming. The family pedigree is patently bad and terminates in Norse Limerick on the mother's side. One of the greatest scholars in Ireland has thrown it out. I thought I knew once but now I know what it's like to not know, and can relate to the Normans. Btw my O'Donovans lived hundreds of miles away when I was growing up and had nothing directly to do with the trolls I got stuck with. Divorces and so on. DinDraithou (talk) 06:20, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Alert: Perhaps these refer to Bisset ancestors?

The following names appear referenced in several dozen manuscripts of the Genealogical Office in the NLI in Dublin:

• Bisse/Bice - pedigrees (MS 215-219, Anglo-Irish pedigrees I, p.180),
• Bysse/Byse - (MS. 213 Antrim Families, p.152)
• Bysses - (as above, p. 154)

These references include coats of arms, (MS 526), ecclesiastical visitations, will abstracts, funeral entries, etc.

Source McAnlis: [5]. Merry Christmas from LondonTricky (talk)

Thank you! To you as well, from the rural Eastern Shore of nowhere. I didn't know about these. Although I'm fairly confident a pedigree of the main line does not survive, these may very well be Bissetts trying to survive. There is the problem that the final consonant (stop/plosive) appears to have always been pronounced and was also frequently voiced -d-. I don't know the phonetics of it but wonder if this isn't proof the stress is on the second syllable. The -e- I have seen lengthened with the fada. However what you have found could be diminutives of a sort, which are often formed in English by clipping/truncation. Stress in Irish varies with the dialect and so some septs could have placed it on the first syllable. I've also come up with a possible explanation for the form Myssett/Missett. -m- is the homorganic nasal of -b-. But, there was an allegedly unrelated Meath family of English origin called Myssett, still noted in the 17th century. The sources may be wrong about their origins, but if not then their existence could have confused some English officials after the Antrim Bissetts fell into obscurity.

I have no way of getting to the NLI but have a distant cousin at Trinity whom I might bother... once I have much more of the article written, which will take some time. Also it happens that Kenneth Nicholls himself has done some of the only research ever on this family in Ireland and my cousin happens to know him. So if I can get to him before I end up too occupied ripped this coming spring or summer then a productive exchange might take place. DinDraithou (talk) 21:12, 13 December 2010 (UTC)

DinDraithou, Happy to help! I'm not sure how I exactly respond to you, hopefully this is the manner. As to the Bissetts, I researched them a few years back due to the MacShane - McKeon/McEoin link. I've even passed information with the man who owns what is considered to be the originial Bissett fief in Scotland. Your question is more of an O'Neill question and I'll have to dig in and see what I can come up with for you. Cheers, Princeton03 Princeton03 (talk) 02:14, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Tadc mac Briain

I read the diff upside down or something... Glad someone is keeping an eye on me :) I'm mainly doing stuff over here no:Spesial:Bidrag/Finnrind these days, what are you up to currently? Still concentrating on the Ui Imair? Finn Rindahl (talk) 23:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Finn. I've got a lot to say today. I'm especially trying to finish Ivar of Limerick and Ivar of Waterford. Amazingly the first, who in his short career made himself one of the most famous Norse-Gaels in Irish history, does not even have an Oxford biography despite appearing in millions of popular treatments and historical fiction. In modern scholarship, probably from the 1970s, he has found himself thrown out with the spirit and intent of the Cogad, a terrible shame because he was in fact a celebrity in his time and not principally the creation of a talented early 12th century author/propagandist. But I've finally gotten around to him in recent weeks and we are approaching completion. Basically a biography reading like an academic paper, his article features the highest degree of scholarship allowed in Wikipedia, only one below what might be published in an academic journal. All I'm prohibited from offering is my own reconstruction. When the two remaining tagged sections are finished I will write one more: Ivar of Limerick#Fame and legacy. Then some polishing and so on for smoother reading and the article will be finished. Waterford, Donal of the Skins, and Donal II should then be top priority. Also I need to address the local peasants' belief that Donal III was a terrible human being who once hanged a woman to whom he owed money from his tower in the mountains. The scholar Ó Murchadha has dismissed this. Who would do that? And they say the tower seeps blood when it rains. In fact it was built with "blood mortar" like many other buildings and thus can still appear reddish centuries later.

These are all family of course. It might be that being a descendant of the man who all but wiped out the sept of Ímar Ua Donnubáin will allow me to communicate with the fallen Bissetts of Antrim. They might even have a ghost, one Lady Ann Bissett representing them and she is reported to be unwilling to appear for the MacDonnells themselves.[6] This may very well recall the dispossession of the family by the MacDonnells in the 16th century. As an O'Donovan, if only in the female line, the MacDonnells are my very distant cousins through the dynasty of you know who. With the proper knowledge I shouldn't even need to travel there to divine the Bissetts' story. They'll come to me.

And have I ever told you that I probably have a little O'Neill in me? My mother descends from the Claflin family (to be created some day), one of the very oldest Scottish families in the United States, arriving before 1661. Governor William Claflin is a cousin. The Claflins are recognized as belonging to the Clan Maclachlan by genealogists,[7] and the Maclachlans are of course one of the five Scottish families claiming descent from the O'Neills and the most likely to have a more or less good pedigree. Although it doesn't say so in the article yet they may in fact simply be a sept of the Irish Mac Lochlainns, who as you know are collateral O'Neills. In fact some modern Scottish authorities still consider the Maclachlans "Irish" (along with the other western clans), like the Bissetts of Antrim might be called "Scottish". I am still learning the history of this region, since I have for long neglected the history of my mother's family (whom I don't like mostly), but this will allow me to speak with yet greater authority.

I've looked at some of what you've been working on in the Norwegian project and actually tried to read a little. Since Google seems unable to learn how to translate Scandinavian properly when it happens to be the closest dialect syntactically to English, I should acquire a reading knowledge of it myself. I once learned a little Swedish and Danish a few years ago but did not use any of it and have mostly forgotten. Also I suffered a little brain damage two and a half years ago when I lost control in idleness and drank myself into a horrific state (rehab, debt, etc.). This was after I was accepted to Uppsala and ready to fly, with an apartment waiting for me, but the Swedish government made me wait too long for the right visa, because of a US government fuck-up with my passport, and I got stuck with a cave in a bad neighborhood inside the Washington, D.C. beltway for some lonely millennia. I lost count. Oh well. Maybe I should try to learn Norwegian now, the real Norse in Norse-Gaelic. I undoubtedly have more in me than the Danish claimed by 19th century scholars. DinDraithou (talk) 00:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm also trying to do something with Owen MacCarthy Reagh, 12th Prince of Carbery, also family. Although I have a general knowledge of its contents, I lack the essential Life and Letters of Florence MacCarthy. Daniel MacCarthy Glas published some of it in journals before the book appeared, and I have a few of these articles, but the volume is over 500 pp. I could have bought the only perfect reprint available for sale in the world last year but chose to order a pair of casual pants by Emporio Armani instead (they are nice). Hopefully a copy will eventually be scanned and appear at the Internet Archive. DinDraithou (talk) 03:50, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Letters of Florence

I have a copy of the book. Old - about 150 years. Think it cost me $6. Clear enough for scanning, so I'd have bought the pants too. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Modonovan (talk • contribs) 09:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Unfair! Actually there is an inexpensive one available but the company does not guarantee it won't suffer from blank patches or whatever. For $30 they find one in a library and put it in this completely automated scanning machine they have. The perfect, nicely bound professional reprint (facsimile) I wanted cost several times that. DinDraithou (talk) 03:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Crom O'Donovan

I noted your article on Crom, and the various lineages. One thing I have found quite interesting, and since you have all the lines presented in that article (although there are so many conflicts between writers no version is considered unquestionable), is the change in naming convention after Crom. As I pointed out before, I hold the opinion that the 1283 annal account indicates a split in the clan. From Crom, the three sons (Cathal, Aneslis and Lochlain) descendents show a change in allies. Cathal and Lochlain's sons reflectIrish/Danish names (Tadg, Murchad, Donnchad, Cathal, etc. ) Aneslis has Donogh Mor, Walter, Richard (two generations before Rickard shows up elsewhere in the lines)and Raghnall. I beleive that a portion of the sept allied at that time with the McCarthy clan that became Clan Donough in Muscery, in the north near Doneraile, and the presence of a Walter in the line indicates an alliance with the Anglo Saxons, which is also consistent with a split in the clan, with some following Irish allies and one sept of the McCarthys, into Skibereen and Cork, and some staying in the north "shorn of power" and allied with Anglo Saxons and not allied in any way with the MacCarthy Mor or MacCarthy Reach septs. Given the distinct ultimate difference in position and holdins of Clan Cathal and Clan Lochlain, and the minor role of Clan Aneslis, the existence of a Walter in that line in the 1283 period is quite telling, I believe. Just food for thought. ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Modonovan (talk • contribs) 10:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

That's a great analysis. There is supporting evidence for long-term O'Donovan association with the MacCarthys of Muskerry: the MacCarthys Reagh were on good terms with them and there was some intermarriage between. Later we find Donal II's second daughter married to their junior sept MacCarthy of Mourne,[8] and issue of this married to another O'Donovan. Since this Donogh was of Castlehaven he was probably a son or grandson of Donal II and so maybe only first cousin once removed to his wife! But this is the good kind of incest (every once in a while). Going further back, remember how Collins has Denis/Donnchadh of Clann Aineislis supporting Donal I while he is living all the way north in Muskerry with the O'Learys? Do we assume this was possible because the Clann Aineislis had connections up there? The name Walter is certainly an interesting addition to the list. One or two de Burgos used it, but it was far, far more common in the Butler dynasty. Like the de Burghs they also used Theobald. Also I see not a few Richards. But the O'Donovans probably get Richard from the Limerick de Burghs. DinDraithou (talk) 03:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

MacDonogh MacCarthy clan

Regarding the association of some of the O'Donovan/MacCarthy Reagh individuals with the Mac Donough MacCarthy clan near Duhallow, and my notes regarding the 1283 splits (in which I noted that a presence of a Walter in the lineage of the McEneslis line indicated a split and alliance with the foreigners:

I believe, considering that some of the O'Donovans stayed in the north, and never migrated south, I beleive that is additional evidence that the Muscry are was a relief valve, so to speak, for O'Donovans on the outs with the MacCarthy Reagh septs. The 1283 split is one element. I find it a very interest issue that Teige O'Donovan, after loosing the claim against his older brother Donal in 1594 (and thus, he would be landless and on the outs), ended up in ....Drishane, (based on his 1639 will which you've seen in the Appendix to the Annals) in the middle of the Mac Donogh territory. Why would he end up there, allied with a northen MacCarthy sept rather than a MacCarthy Reagh line from the south? It's a very interesting issue, as to what happended AFTER the 1594 decision.```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by Modonovan (talk • contribs) 05:13, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I've had some trouble with all of this. Although I don't have the link right now, there is a contemporary Teige who went into the church and was vicar of somewhere, and I have suspected he was the one who filed the now famous lawsuit known to all scholars of Late Gaelic Ireland (Donal II's article will be half again longer when I finally write that section). Then there is the location of Drishane. Edith Anna Somerville grew up at another Drishane in the neighborhood of Castletownshend and this is in O'Donovan country. You know of course that the Somervilles are our distant cousins through some intermarriage with one of the Clancahill junior septs, but this shouldn't have anything to do with it. Also the O'Donovans of Carbery, after centuries of naming practices strange for the region, somehow became very boring and repeated Donal, Teige, Rickard, Murrough, and Conogher ad nauseum from the later 16th century, so it is difficult to tell them apart sometimes. Every other daughter is named Honora for a while. DinDraithou (talk) 02:53, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Mail

Thank you! Just sent you an email.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:35, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you much more! I just finished reading Sellar's article and know immensely more about the kindred than before. It's really a shame the MagDougalls look like they've fallen apart again (today). I had no idea they were once so prominent and able! So they were the main line of Clann Somhairle. Also those poems look like gems.

Woolf's review of McDonald's book is going to prove valuable when I discuss the claims of the MacDonnells of Dunnyveg to the lordship of the Bissetts, based on their descent from Margery. It happened the same way the Clann Somhairle got Man and the Isles, except it took over a century and required the "assistance" of the O'Donnells at Knockavoe. From Woolf and Sellar I now have my models and can write an expert discussion of that particular topic. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I'll bet you didn't know I needed help there!

I'm happy to replace House of Godred with Crovan dynasty, following Woolf. I'll get around to it soon. DinDraithou (talk) 21:52, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

I just sent you another one, it's got something by Woolf (the Age of Sea-Kings).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:32, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

Brianann you're incredible! It's like you know exactly what I need. In this article Woolf gives his argument against Echmarcach mac Ragnaill's descent from Gofraid mac Arailt. All I knew from reading Etchingham (2001) is that Woolf voiced support for Duffy's argument to him. Three years later (2004) we get the argument. He refers to Ragnall mac Ímair as a grandson of Amlaíb Cuarán, which I suppose could be true, but I'm pretty sure we are still talking about the king of Waterford who died in 1018, a son of Ímar of Waterford (died 1000). Now I need to go through the annals and the Cogad to see if I can find anything he might have been doing for the probably eighteen years he was king of Waterford. For twelve of those Brian was High King and Ragnall was surely his subordinate ally. And why does he get the same name as his presumably elder brother who was slain by the Leinstermen in 995? DinDraithou (talk) 23:17, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

May

Hey everyone, I have hinted at this before, but now I am certain I will be leaving Wikipedia in May by closing my account. After that I will probably reappear occasionally as an IP to make contributions, but my life online will be drastically different because I will be moving from the country to the city. Hopefully next year there will actually be an article on me that I can fiddle with, if the world buys the intellectual product I'm in the process of developing. DinDraithou (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

By the way, this has probably nothing (or little) to do with the fact that a certain famous artist I'm really sweet on happens to be releasing her new album in May. May is the month of Beltane and when many people in the world begin having a nice time after months, or in some cases years, of restriction and uncertainty. The Otherworld is close at hand. DinDraithou (talk) 21:45, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

When you return, you'll be as welcome as the flowers of May. Laurel Lodged (talk) 21:55, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Laurel! That is such a nice thing to say. I don't make a good online personality because I'm both easily irritated and forgetful, but I may not be able to resist returning to certain articles when I am able, and importantly remember that I should. So we might still run into each other! I hope you'll stay around longer, but also encourage you to not spend too many years here yourself and become like many of the people who have, which is patronizing. If I were to stay too long and learn too much of the system I might become like that myself. Don't learn the system! You've had an account for a year now and are at risk too! Don't forget this place is just a massive format which will be succeeded. DinDraithou (talk) 02:25, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

So I guess I'm saying set your date too. This isn't the place to be forever! DinDraithou (talk) 06:14, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Or maybe it is for some. For all we know some form of the project may continue for decades, but the ways it works should change. In particular there is a lot of fighting and abuse, stalking and hounding. I don't know how common the spurious invention of policy for the wrong purposes is but the policy pages would seem to be endless and frequently contradictory. What the system could use is artificial intelligence software like this to have a perfect knowledge of the evident behavior of all contributors, for example to detect and prevent gaming (of) the system, which is extremely rampant. I was recently the victim of this (etc.), and won in the end, but many people don't and just get beaten up, surely in many cases because they lack the time to defend against those who live in the system as much as the article space, or more. The project doesn't need most of these system dwellers. Most importantly, to me at least, misbehaving or uncaring administrators could be restricted by such software.

But I don't care enough to stay. I've already written most of what I want to here and it's just a matter of finishing a few articles myself and creating some stubs for others to expand. I was going to leave anyway. 90% or greater of my contributions will some day prove to be in one way or another self-serving, but there's nothing wrong with that so long as the subjects are notable and content is good, and others benefit from it all too. Edwin Bennett was my great-great grandfather but I do not identify with his family, who have nothing of his considerable fortune now anyway. Every family in the country had something from his factory for a while there. His little red brick mansion in Baltimore is now a small office building for architects, which is neat I guess.

My biggest mistake ever was once discussing minorities in general in a heartless way on a high traffic talk page, and failing to mention that I see much in terms of assimilation and leadership. So a truly powerful minority to me are not a minority, if they are in a position to dictate to the majority. They might be called a minority only because they possess their own distinct knowledge of the world or a thing. DinDraithou (talk) 22:04, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

What happened is another editor took it personally, got all pissed off and started hounding me. I never had peace on that talk page again and some really nice information I was providing on another subject months later became the target of him and a follower. They didn't quite understand talk page policy but were so determined I eventually gave up and stopped contributing there. I'm sure he still considers me that guy who belittles traditional minorities.

I've just looked at minority group for the first time. So it's not a perfect term for these various groups anyway. The aristocracy have of course always been a "minority", and that is what scholars frequently call them, but not in the modern sense. The rest of the population they call the majority, which this "minority group" theory would call the minority because they didn't have horses and servants. The poor and disenfranchised used to get together and say the equivalent of "End minority rights!" as they understood it because they were referring to the elite.

Sorry for wasting your time if you happen to follow my talk page and didn't expect it to turn into a blog. I'll get to drinking beer now. DinDraithou (talk) 07:10, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

White Rod

I was going to mention this along time ago, but I totally forgot about it. There's a really brief mention of a "white wand", in a Scottish clan context, mentioned in The Argyll Book I sent you, page 186, fifth paragraph; by Campbell of Airds, an officer of arms at Lyon Court. It mentions how the head of a particular Argyll family bears the wand on his arms. Airds mentioned the family and wand again in another book:

... the Fergusons of Glensellich, a small but ancient Cowal clan who look as if they were the ancient holders of Strachur and the surrounding lands until they were taken over by the Campbells, for whom they acted as Officers of Strachur. The last Chieftain of the Clann Fhearghuis of Stra-chur was a colourful individual who spent his latter days based in the Explorers’ Club in New York, where he habitually wore Highland dress. He was a larger-than-life character who made extravagant claims both for himself and for his clan who, he claimed, were the oldest in Scotland, being directly descended from Fergus MacErc who was one of the founders of the Scottish Kingdom of Dalriada in AD 500. When Lord Lyon granted him arms, they included the supporters of an ancient chiefly family, while the arms themselves were the same as those given to the Fergussons of Kilkerran, Chiefs of the name of Ferguson, with the additional difference of a white wand through the buckle at the centre of the shield, a reference to their position as Officers or Stewards of Strachur. There is no blood connection between the two families. Campbell of Airds, Alastair (2000), A History of Clan Campbell; Volume 1; From Origins to Flodden, Edinburgh: Polygon. p. 235.

Earlier in the book, while going on about the Campbells as 'Barons of Argyll':

The granting of lands in liberam baroniam – ‘in free barony’ – as in the case of the lands of Loch Awe became a preferred method by which the King in making the grant made the recipient responsible for good order within his bounds, the various legal powers involved extending even to the ultimate penalty whether cum furca et fossa – ‘with pit and gallows’ – was specified or not. The holding of baron courts during the year was part of the obligation laid on the possessor at which justice was dispensed either by the baron himself or by his appointed deputy or bailie, whose emblem of office was a white wand – still carried today on state occasions by certain high officials within the royal household. This position can be an interesting one, since it can on occasion be found to be held by the family who were previous possessors of the land before being displaced. Campbell of Airds, Alastair (2000), A History of Clan Campbell; Volume 1; From Origins to Flodden, Edinburgh: Polygon. p. 88.

There must be other examples of the white wand/rod in Scotland, or its symbolism in heraldry, but that is the only example I've come across and remembered. When I saw your article way back, it rang a bell in my head.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:24, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Ah my messiest ever creation in the project comes back to haunt me. I got intensely interested and then burnt out soon after starting the major research, hence the large number of sources for very little text. If you look on its talk page you can read all about it.

What you've found probably means that the article should remain and not some day be merged into an article on Gaelic kingship. This is clearly some regional development of the original tradition and will have to be in the article simply because we're still talking about a white stick being associated with some kind of authority and justice. We know from the Book of Clanranald that the Mac Domhnaill continued to use the slat in their inauguration ceremonies,[9] but here we have some persistence of the tradition in Cowal and Argyll among families whose regular direct contact with Gaelic Ireland probably ended not long after the Norman invasion of that idiosyncratic nation.

I wish I could come back to the article and write some but I'm overburdened with various projects, and my health is deteriorated. In no small part thanks to this inspiring fellow (Get well!) I've started working out again a little and that can pick me up, but I live in a toxic low energy environment without enough stimulation and my immune system is partly malfunctioning, so I spend a lot of time tired and dysfunctional. I badly need to leave where I am. Like a pet neglected and forgotten I never feel good. Sorry for going on about it.

But I'm responsible for at least making White Rod attractive, even if I look terrible. I'll try to do that soon so the tags can go. It would be wonderful and an honour if you would then adopt the article! Now there is this new dimension to explore where I don't have the necessary familiarity with or access to the new sources. DinDraithou (talk) 19:15, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

White Rod is cleaned up and ready now. All the examples I collected can be found viewing the older version. I should put these in the references myself but it will take some time. DinDraithou (talk) 06:17, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I didn't mean to make the article more a burden on you. Sorry about that. It's good that you created it in the first place, I wouldn't have noted those tiny bits when I was skimming through the books - it would have just been in one ear and out the other. I noticed you said you were going to close down your account soon. I just think that forever's a long time, and maybe after a break, sometime in the future you'll want to create something else here or clean something up, or whatever. Who knows. You don't have to close the door forever.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:18, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to reply. I wrote this long reply yesterday and ended up discussing a little of what I've been working on, when I had an insight and went with it. Why I'm going to close my account is complicated. It's part of a much larger thing. I'm not particularly fond of who I am in real life and this is still an aspect of that. I'm going to try to become someone else. DinDraithou (talk) 23:28, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

sorry

I'm not happy with who I have been on Wikipedia recently. I am nothing like this in real life. I have edited for many years, many many hours a day, obsessively at times! I have decided to retire. I wish you well. x Teapotgeorge^Talk 21:29, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Don't retire! You have a lot of energy and do a lot of great work. Sure you inexplicably stomped on me a while ago but it's not a big deal, and you're nowhere near as batty as I am yet. I live out in the country and actually talk to myself here, because I only see the same three or four people every day and we don't communicate much. You are absolutely normal in comparison! DinDraithou (talk) 22:16, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Savage family (Ireland)

Hi DinDraithou, I just thought I would let you know I have created a stub (to be expanded in time) of the Savage family (Ireland) who occupied Ards. Regards Newm30 (talk) 00:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know! I've just linked to them in Bissett family (Ireland)#Mac Eoin and the O'Neills. There is actually a book on the Savages which you have reminded me to find, because the author discusses the Bissetts as well. I will find it this week! Cheers! DinDraithou (talk) 00:58, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Glad to be of assistance. If you can add any info from the book to the Savage article, it would be greatly appreciated. Regards Newm30 (talk) 23:06, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

I've just added the book, which is available online, to both articles. I will use it for the Bissetts but you will be far more the authority on the Savages if you have their pedigrees in front of you! However I have seen an annal entry, which I should be able to find again, showing that despite their far more English leanings, the Savages did Gaelicize to some degree, because it mentions the inauguration of one. This we can work in once the article has been expanded. Cheers! DinDraithou (talk) 22:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

My farewell gift to you.

Perfidious Albion as ever - the Treaty of Mellifont. Though not in the same league as your scholarship, your work has inspired me to do it. It's my homage to The O'Neill and to you. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:31, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

A beautifully written and wonderfully informative article! Thank you! I have today learned more about it than I ever knew before. The truth is that even after writing Donal II O'Donovan I'm still weak in this period, and you have inspired me to learn the details of his submission if they can be. All I know is that his timing was perfect and that he somehow managed to end up with a greater lordship than he started out with! To Hugh O'Neill, he as you know is a favourite of mine and now we will have to get back to his article, won't we?! I started the King of Ireland section and never came back to it, but should because my knowledge of the MacCarthy claimants is better than it was. There are sources on the Sugán Earl of Desmond out there too.

A great gift of knowledge and inspiration! Thank you for saying I have helped inspire you to write such an informed treatment. I will request my account be deactivated in the last week of May, but will of course return to a selection of articles infrequently, now more likely with new accounts to be used only a few days each, how to personally stay away without possibly causing problems for myself or others. It made no sense to say "as an IP" but I mean to not establish any presence again. DinDraithou (talk) 23:39, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Lady Gaga

[10] ?????????????? (removed by contributor)

lol, nvm. I know all the wrong people. DinDraithou (talk) 05:38, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

??? (removed by contributor)

The expert knowledge of fisting? Thanks to a certain girlfriend and her unforgettably capacious female lover. You wouldn't believe it. I don't really have a barn with Illuminati inside, but I suppose I could like horses that way in the right culture. Relations with them were once common in Europe in pagan times and the Christians later made No Horsefucking laws. It was most popular in Scandinavia and Ireland, where it had very pagan religious aspects, similar to what they were doing in India. In each it was the practice of the royalty and nobility, but I have no doubt it was popular with anyone who could afford it. I've studied some of the material and have fun joking with people. In some countries horsefucking is still common today. If you ask around you can get into it. People love playing with those huge things. Some of the girls you have seen in regular pornos also do horses in Brazil and elsewhere. Knowing the ancient history of the practice I get a kick out of the fact. DinDraithou (talk) 22:09, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

?????????????????? (removed by contributor)

Enumclaw horse sex case and Zoo (film). Google "Mr. Hands" if you want to see a clip of the guy with two feet of horsedick in his ass, with horsecum. It was the biggest thing on the Internet.

I've seen a woman do it more elegantly. Not in person. In any event there are horsefuckers everywhere, but see Zoophilia#Legal status and Zoosexuality and the law#Overview of legislation, just so you know. And [11] for all you aspiring horsefuckers in the States. It looks legal in New Jersey, but I'll bet you can't film or photograph the act. I'm sure there are little scenes here and there. DinDraithou (talk) 01:55, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

?????????????? (removed by contributor)

No, but you were foolish enough to show up here after expressing your intention to harm someone's reputation with whatever trash you could find, just following some other guy. After getting inspired I decided to stop with the nonsense and properly fuck with you, and hopefully your friends too. Watch out for horsefuckers! DinDraithou (talk) 02:37, 23 April

????????????????????????????????????? (removed by contributor)

You had every intention. But yes a huge stretch! As far as my reputation I already have a bad one and it's a matter of artfully making myself look worse to have some control over it. Better isn't possible, so sometimes I have a good time with it. Have you learned anything? Plus I have quite an assortment of interesting people, including family, watching my space and contributions and this has also been for them to enjoy. There's a political writer or two reading, and maybe people in fashion, and some cool fucker with more than one pair of rattlesnake boots, all looking into the unknown for inspiration. They give to me and sometimes I give back! This time it's horsefucking, baby. DinDraithou (talk) 03:40, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

???????????????? (removed by contributor)

You did that on the other talk page, saying you were willing to work with someone intent on putting horrible things into an extremely popular article on a famous person neither of you know. No! I don't know her either, but I am really into her and you made me angry, so I got vulgar, and realized I'd said something I could have some fun with. It was a gift when you showed up here. Why will become clearer in the future, but I'm not speaking to you now, and possibly not to anyone but myself. That's about it. DinDraithou (talk) 05:09, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

??????????????????? (contributor's reply removed by me, followed by his/her removal of text above. strange response, but understandable. I was thinking of doing something like The Aristocrats and telling quite the tale, but decided against.) DinDraithou (talk) 20:21, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Reply

Sorry for the delay. Are you leaving us?

"You have a better sense than I do. Does it all come down to the slaving, and so on? Is that still the problem, that monster in the port city with his raiding parties leaving little scars on the landscape where people once lived? Or is that forgotten and is there another reason why his descendants became proper Gaels? Was it more the Norman invasion? DinDraithou (talk) 20:34, 17 April 2011 (UTC)"

I honestly doubt that there is much sentiment remaining in those areas based on their ancestors' slaving. Its too far back for most people. It more that so much time has passed that their Gaelic identity is absolute. For most people, so long as you have an O or Mac in front of your name, you're Gaelic, whatever the origin of the name or term that follows it. Really got stuck into your articles, utterly fascinating work. Fergananim (talk) 16:23, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you very much! As you know I've learned a great deal of what I know of Irish genealogy from you. You're an amazing resource and your work on Gaelic Ireland is vast. Possibly we'll run into each other again because I will return to some articles. I'm still hopeful for the O'Shaughnessys too.

The O'Donovans and MacDonnells are very different cases and it's just a coincidence that they happen to be distantly related through the Uí Ímair and sort of form their own peculiar category in the modern Gaelic nobility of Ireland, looked at objectively if that is the right word. Their legitimacy concerns are also different, O'Donovan because his sept have endured the annoyance of repeated challengers with doctored pedigrees, to the point where some people defending them may have resorted in recent times, perhaps in siege mentality, to threatening researchers with deadly force, something the whole family are well known to be capable of using. Collins of Myross is said to have feared for his life, worried that General Richard II, who was a bit of a dick, might not like the commissioned pedigree, which incidentally has now gone missing for some reason. Apparently it is or was packed full of stories of my grandmother's family murdering people, getting murdered back, etc., it being nearly all anyone can seem to remember. MacDonnell of the Glens, on the other hand, has suffered from attacks that he is not the most senior agnate, and other people don't like him as a person, and then other people still consider him "Scottish." What I love is that he has revived the old Bissett title and we now have a "Lord of the Glens" again, which I plan to discuss in the last section of their article after I am finished with the one I am writing.

The reason I ask about the categorization is that nationalism and the publication in 1867 of The War of the Irish with the Foreigners, and the appearance of other material, have rather damaged the O'Donovan family's reputation in terms of its perceived Irishness. Ellis thankfully screwed up writing Erin's Blood Royal: The Gaelic Noble Dynasties of Ireland and when covering us was completely unaware of what happened in the 10th century, but when covering others he happily discusses, with his limited knowledge, them destroying the Norse.

So we have this unfortunate climate of non-inclusion and the heads of families of Norman or English descent no longer get to have Gaelic titles. A number of the princes were apparently upset when the government recognized Joyce and they do not include him today, although I understand there is no pedigree, which is beside the point here. It's hypocritical noting that two of the princes descend verifiably in no small part from a foreign dynasty once known for causing more harm than any Norman family would ever achieve in Ireland. Even "worse," MacDonnell's title, if you remember, is derived from the Bissett lordship, which would theoretically make the holder illegitimate in part. Yet the Council cannot even manage to offer the Duke of Leinster a prince's title, leaving him and his family to suffer with the meaningless one they have. I am less familiar with the De Burgo pedigrees, of which you are the master, but couldn't the Earl of Mayo also re-become the Mac William Íochtar if revived?

Adding to the list of the House of Ivar's accomplishments, they have recently enough been argued to be the ones responsible for wrecking Uí Néill dominance of the island and the Kingship of Tara with them, by killing too many of their dynasts and burning up their resources, unexpectedly allowing Brian Bóruma to walk in (I supply the links, which you don't need yourself, for our other readers).[12] Oh and all the slaving. If people have mostly forgotten about that then we're looking a little better. It breaks my heart that "we" ruined the mighty Clann Cholmáin. Somehow I find myself speaking for "us." No one else is. I have a bad reputation in real life too, so it suits me. What if Ivar of Limerick had never instigated Donnubán mac Cathail to seize Mathgamain mac Cennétig? I could go on and on because ultimately we helped ruin the Eóganachta as well, going at least as far back as Ragnall ua Ímair's invasion of Munster in 917.

I've discovered what could be interpreted as actual evidence that Ivar of Limerick was largely responsible for Donnubán's elevation to the level of a regional power, something nationalists and O'Brien partisans have already been claiming, simply based on their association, since the 19th century. I don't know if I should write this into their biographies or not. DinDraithou (talk) 01:46, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Count of Tyrone

First of all, there is no source for this Vatican document that I can find anywhere.

Second, I do not believe that anybody was graduated from Princeton specializing in 17th century history and knows so little Latin as to suppose that Jacobus, Comes de Tyrone and James, Count of Tyrone mean different things; there is no Irish title of Count and never has been.

I now think, since the sources are distortions of actually existing sources, that this is an intentional error; this is a learned hoax. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Third, Great Britain did not restore relations with the Vatican in 1740; they had no official relations in 1870, when Odo Russell was accredited to the Kingdom of Italy but resided in Rome as unofficial contact. (Our text is essentially the Britannica's, and reliable).

Fourth, this claim rests on the word of two little old ladies, in France in 1901, that their unbroken family tradition says that they are descended from this hypothetical great-grandson of Hugh O'Neill and that the next heir is George O'Neill of Portugal.

Fifth. George O'Neill is descended from the O'Neils of Clandeboy, a different family, which settled in Antrim, not Tyrone, in the 14th century. (Both these from Joseph Chubb Develin's Story of an Irish Sept pp. 122-3; since he's a Develin, he should be neutral on the O'Neill controversies.

Exact quote from Complete Peerage follows. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:51, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

In addition, several of the sources do not appear to exist. The Journal of the Kilkenny and SE Ireland Archaeological Society is now available on JSTOR; the pages in question are from two different articles - neither of which mention Patrick O'Neill. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

User:Princeton03 didn't make the Latin contribution and neither did I. Check the edit history. Obviously this is very complicated. With what's left of my week I need to work on other things and I'll get back to you next week with what I know. For the Clanaboy dynasty ending up with the title for a generation see Ellis pp. 236 ff. I mention him in the discussion right above but his coverage of the O'Neills is pretty good. DinDraithou (talk) 05:09, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

For Patrick O'Neill, whom you consider never existed, see.[13][14] Stop trashing these articles and learn how to use Google. It took me five seconds to establish his existence. DinDraithou (talk) 05:34, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Please read what you see on Google. Your first source claims that Patrick O'Neill was born in 1622; it does not mention the countship of Tyrone which our article says was created for him "in 1622 or 1623". That there was a Patrick O'Neill does not surprise me - and is not interesting; the creation of a countship for him at the age of a few months is an extraordinary claim, and requires extraordinary evidence. (Incidentally, the MS. from Saumur is lifted from that same article; most Princetonians are taught not to steal other people's footnotes.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:59, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

The Clanaboye O'Neills are (probably) collateral heirs of the first Earl. That may make them O'Neill of Tyrone as well as O'Neill of Clanaboye; that's up to the O'Neills -it's an elective position, after all. It cannot make them Earls of Tyrone; its descent is specified by patent; it goes to the (legitimate) descendants in male line of Ferdoragh (Matthew) O'Neill, of which there are none; the Clanaboye O'Neills are not even descended from the grantee. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:06, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Complete Peerage (Volume XII, Part II, Appendix C, supplementary p. 13 note (i)). "In the nineteenth century, a family of O'Neills in France and Martinique adopted the style of Comte de Tyrone, although their ped[igree] does not bear examination. In 1901, on the death of the last heir male of this family Jorge O'Neill, of Lisbon, a Peer of the Kingdom of Portugal, styled himself Comte de Tyrone and 'The O'Neill'..." He had a certificate from the Somerset Herald that he was the only recognized "collateral kinsman" of Con Bacagh. "Obviously such collateral kinship, even if genuine, would not entitle anyone to the Earldom of Tyrone." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:15, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I should perhaps also point out the obvious: This Portuguese Peerage cannot be the one mentioned in Count of Tyrone; Flanders was in the Spanish Netherlands, and 1622 is during the Spanish occupation of Portugal. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:24, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Septentrionalis, this would be a lot easier if you would order yourself a copy of Ellis. Make sure you get the Palgrave 2001/2002 edition, not the earlier one. Until you have a copy, which most everyone else has, you're in the dark and seeing evil where it doesn't exist. The Prince of Clanaboy, who has an account here, isn't guilty of anything, nor his father nor grandfather. and they are hardly claiming the Earldom of Tyrone, which none of the O'Neills want. That's not what this is about. Princeton03, whom you seem to hate for some reason, could explain it all much better but he only appears every few months. I may have accidentally driven him off last time with overexuberant silliness, or alternatively the O'Neills still don't have their house in order, but I hope he'll return. What is your problem with them all? It feels like you're defending some territory but I'm unsure. DinDraithou (talk) 16:54, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I didn't accuse the O'Neill of Clanaboy of anything. It looks like the articles in question may have jumped the shark, but that's not the O'Neill's fault. He and his ancestors seem to be making quite reasonable claims, most of them verifiable.

I hate nobody. I observe claims for which no reliable source is given, and which are expressly denied by other reliable sources: such as the existence of an title inherited by the Martinique O'Neills. If "Ellis" gives one, please supply a citation; is this Peter Berresford Ellis? It's not listed in the bibliography of Count of Tyrone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:14, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

It is P.B. Ellis. I have the 1999 edition in front of me; it contradicts, root and branch, our article on Count of Tyrone. Details follow. If the 2002 edition has changes, let me know.

• p. 235
  • after a summary of the descent of the title of Conde de Tyrone through the descendants of Owen Roe O'Neill, with which other sources agree, but our article doesn't:
  • "After 1689" [others would say long after], the title was assumed by the French branch of the O'Neills.
  • The last of them was Auguste Eugene Valentine 0'Neille, who died late in the nineteenth century
  • In "a dubious family pact" of 1901, his daughters acknowledged Jorge O'Neill as senior heir.
  • Ellis also discusses (and denies) the possibility that they are descended from Ferdorcha O'Neill, a grandson of the great Earl, who accompanied him into exile. This claim is also inconsistent with our article "Patrick O'Neill" is Padraig - and he was born in exile.
• P. 241
  • The daughters had no right to transfer any title, by Brehon law or the law of the Kingdom of Ireland. [Other sources would agree. This has nothing to do with the actual rights of Jorge or Hugo O'Neill of Lisbon and Clanaboy. Those depend on their actual descent, which Ellis provides.]
  • Their claim to do so was also challenged by Francois Henri O'Neill, who claims male descent from the same family.
  • Their claim of descent is from Phelim O'Neill, the general of 1641. [Incompatible again; Phelim and Patrick were alive at the same time, and Phelim, a MacShane, was not descended from Hugh, and no right to the Earldom]
  • Their descent "has never, as far as is known, been proved" [Whatever it is.]

If the edition three years later has changed any of these, let me know. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:54, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

I will admit to so far not having carefully compared the article to the book in those particular areas, only making sure we keep some version of Count of Tyrone. Now that you have examined Ellis I hope you agree that the article should be kept. As to its contents, Princeton03 is a descendant of one of the MacShanes and he has been helping distant cousins out, which explanation applies to all the related articles that worry you. Some of the information in them may be wrong, but neither you nor I have all the sources. I am fairly confident there is no intention to deceive.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree. The article contradicts Ellis as well. But I will do my best to keep what I find credible and sourced around somewhere in Wikipedia. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 12:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

The title or style did exist and meets WP:Notability independent of other concerns. It obviously means something to a number of people. DinDraithou (talk) 02:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

O'Neill of Clanaboy (I usually add Prince somewhere for the readers unfamiliar with Gaelic titles) does wish to be Prince of Ulster but we know that is more unacceptable than not, an obsession with a provincial overkingship probably dating from a time before Christianity and established by an unrelated dynasty. I do not know what goes on in their minds but they seem to have no understanding that the King of Ailech is the one with a claim to the High Kingship of Ireland. No O'Neill king of Ulster ever was High King. And they seem to believe The O'Neill is automatically Prince of Ulster. Incorrect.

They are all my cousins through the Kildare Geraldines but I am doing my best to remain neutral. Their problem is that they do not give a fuck about me and I will not bother with them much further. I have helped them out a little here, but they have given me no help at all with the Bissett family, which I have asked them for and they could easily provide, so I am losing interest in the current generation. If they have nothing for me on the parentage of one of their own, Sabia O'Neill, wife to the Mac Eoin Bissett, Lord of the Glens, then there is something wrong with them internally and we have no business. You would think they would consider helping me with this small thing a smart thing to do, considering my capable presence here.

I'll keep an eye out for sources on the Bissetts; Wikipedia cannot use the unpublished Clanaboy papers, even if they were more generous. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 12:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! See Talk:Bissett family (Ireland) for many issues. The article should be respectable before the last week of May. DinDraithou (talk) 02:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

So do what you want with Count of Tyrone, only keep it. I have better things to do, like fashion and sex with equines, new and old loves. DinDraithou (talk) 06:03, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Have fun; beware of the fate of the Great Catherine! Septentrionalis PMAnderson 12:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I need to find the right woman for this, which is still a fantasy. If you know where to look you can find some pretty nice amateur footage and slightly more "respectable" pornography, as well as artwork. This is something I have done, but so far I have kept away from the communities. DinDraithou (talk) 02:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, that's not quite true. I did once contact a production company in Brazil with an idea, but nothing came of it. DinDraithou (talk) 03:11, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Btw (readers), keep nothing on your computer or otherwise in your possession if you happen to find material. DinDraithou (talk) 04:26, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

"List of consorts..." articles

At Talk:List of Irish queens and consorts#Ladies of Ireland you said that "these are widely considered garbage-type articles" that "serve no purpose" and "don't help anyone, except for maybe childlike adults". This has prompted me to start nominating some of them for deletion, though I haven't included the Irish article yet (there are so many!). You might like to comment at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of consorts of X. Thanks. Opera hat (talk) 13:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm surprised to see Keeps and am disappointed with some users. The articles are hardly valuable like they say. The Irish one is bad mostly for being stupid and misleading in addition to useless. DinDraithou (talk) 02:48, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Donovan

Last names don't matter. Every single category in every single article should be backed up by a piece of text in the article that itself is backed up by a reliable source. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 06:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Nicola Formichetti

This is just a brilliant piece of work. Keep it up. — Legolas ^(talk2me) 06:13, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! That's a very nice thing to say. I lost my connection moments after you appeared last night so this is my first chance to reply. This may have been a good thing because I was drunk and of little use by then anyway, like every night I confess.

Formichetti has certainly been an experience. The two empty sections can be written in a day, but I have little experience with getting new images myself and don't know what to do to get a few nice ones when everything is copyrighted. Thank you also for that screenshot of Gaga and Rick Genest. As you probably know the one of the MUGLER video by Mariano Vivanco was deleted. The past few days I have been avoiding making intellectually difficult contributions and have been doing easy stuff, but assuming I don't die or end up back in rehab the discussion in Formichetti's article will be more or less complete before the last week of May. It might be up to you and others to get it pictures for a GA rating. DinDraithou (talk) 17:10, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Article ratings

Thanks for your re-rating and kind comments. There is, of course, nothing to stop you rating these articles yourself if you have clear views on the matter. Simply join Wiki Proj Irl. Regards Sarah777 (talk) 18:00, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm not big on the importance ratings myself, but I should go through and rate some of the articles I've created. For quality ratings I need to ask around about the nearer to complete ones. DinDraithou (talk) 18:11, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Quality is relatively easy - importance can be controversial. When I'm not familiar with the subject matter I tend to rate initially as "stub" or "start"; very occasionally a "c"; I tend to default importance to "low". If nothing else it often nudges other editors to consider the rating. Sarah777 (talk) 18:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I've tagged Crimthann mac Fidaig - check it out - see if you agree. Sarah777 (talk) 21:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I've noticed a tendency with Irish editors to rate anything medieval or ancient of low importance. User:Ww2censor is particularly famous for this. But generally if someone was a king or queen of any state or people of major note, and is believed by scholars to have been of considerable note her or himself, then the person is of mid to top importance. Usually when you see a big fat list of references you are dealing with someone who has affected history, and may still be of much more importance than a seemingly notable living political leader today. In the case of Crimthann mac Fidaig (who needs a rewrite), he is one of the very earliest Irish kings widely believed by scholars to be historical and to have been of some importance, possibly international/regional, so a low importance rating is pretty ridiculous. At first I re-rated him to mid but glancing at the sources again we are talking high. He was a dominant figure. DinDraithou (talk) 22:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

His likely fortress is where my username comes from, btw. DinDraithou (talk) 22:48, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

I am familiar with the work of Ww! When rating I put a lot of store in the number and quality of references. Sarah777 (talk) 23:31, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Since WikiProject Ireland is incompetent, what I'm going to do is remove my articles from it. No doubt Ww2censor and his or her like will eventually come back and re-add them. DinDraithou (talk) 21:24, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, I'll re-add them! You need to discuss the rating/tagging on the talkpage - not remove without explanation. See WP:OWN Sarah777 (talk) 22:57, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Articles are not required to be in the project. Plus you don't seem to be learning how to rate them, and are wasting my time. I'm seeing no evidence of any knowledge of medieval Irish history so please find something else to do. And don't come back here. I'm tired of you. DinDraithou (talk) 23:06, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

• Hi there DinDraithou. What seems to be the problem here? --John (talk) 23:09, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Sarah is going around rating every article she finds of low importance, when she should know better now. It's annoying. Importance ratings should be made by historically competent editors, not just anybody. DinDraithou (talk) 23:17, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Then revise the rating - don't wipe out the tag. And discuss. Sarah777 (talk) 23:28, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I think I understand why you are annoyed DD. What would you like Sarah to do, stop adding tags entirely? I think that would be a shame as I know these tags help coordinate valuable article improvement work. --John (talk) 23:40, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Ideally, but it does almost none of the medieval and ancient subjects any good, because (I have actually read) almost no modern Irish people living in Ireland have much of a grasp of anything, and those around the world not much more. They know a little about Brian Bóruma and his enemies, and some have heard of Niall of the Nine Hostages. Beyond that they're hopeless. Really we are talking about two Irelands because of the incredible break after the fall of Gaelic Ireland, for which there should be a separate project. DinDraithou (talk) 23:59, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I see your point. Let's assume that Sarah is an exception to that generalization about modern Irish people. I certainly believe she is knowledgable about Irish history. If the tags do no good, there is certainly no point in Sarah's adding them. On the other hand, they don't seem like they do any harm either. Would it be possible for the two of you to disengage and accept that each of you wants to improve the project in their own way? --John (talk) 00:03, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Of course I'm defending my own articles. Who doesn't? But let's take the Bissett family (Ireland), especially dear to me, as an example wrongly rated of low importance by Sarah here. They played a significant role in the Bruce invasion, made both Tudor lists of Ireland's magnates, and still have high profile descendants both on a portion of their original lordship (the Earls of Antrim) and now using a descendant of their Gaelic style (MacDonnell of the Glens). This all means nothing to your modern Irish person but within the context of the post-Norman invasion Gaelic period they are of high importance. I'm not saying the Bissetts are of top importance, like one of the major dynasties, but they did make both those Tudor lists alongside them. The O'Donovan family only made one of the two, and some other prominent families neither! But this all requires a devoted project like WikiProject Norse history and culture or WikiProject Anglo-Saxon Kingdoms. DinDraithou (talk) 00:42, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Of course, I entirely understand. Would it be possible just to amend any assessments you disagree with, rather than removing them? --John (talk) 01:48, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to take so long to reply, John. It feels wrong but I suppose I can rate the importance of the subjects of my own articles. However that still leaves thousands written by others with inappropriate ratings. I'd rather not stay around another month to start the Gaelic Ireland (Gaelic World, Gaeldom) project myself and have a number of contributors in mind. I'm discovering all that silliness above has become an international hit of sorts so I am definitely leaving.

(I am neither a horsefucker nor a Russian prince living with HIV somewhere in Australia, readers. I smoked angel dust a few times when I was a teenager and my eyes still twitch on occasion, but my virtues are an IQ in the 170s and a spirit almost 10% good, despite my reputation as a psychotic whore.)

Back to my research... DinDraithou (talk) 19:47, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

(Not a horsefucker yet, readers. I'm still waiting for the right woman to help out with her dream. New Jersey here we cum! And I'm still working on the Russian prince thing, my haplotype being almost acceptable, since I'm close enough to the Rurikids to call myself distantly related. It comes with no title or anything, and you have to pay money to waste your time with delusional people who think they get to call themselves princes after printing out their results from a genetic genealogy company. I know better and just have fun with it, but my Russian really sucks, even worse than my Swedish. My near "relations" on that side aren't family because they're disgusting and I hate them.)

We were talking about article ratings? Sorry, I'm still a little crazy from smoking the wrong shit a long time ago. Don't ever do that terrible stuff, readers. I didn't know any better and once spent a lovely summer weekend staggering around with a demon in my head. At least I didn't hit anyone or try to pick up a car, but some people do and end up a lot worse than I did. That could be you. Good thing the stuff doesn't seem to be around anymore. Someone should do a story on it. Please don't mention me though. DinDraithou (talk) 22:57, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

It's not all bad news Din. You're nearly as bright as I am:) Sarah777 (talk) 09:03, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

As for the tagging I'm only updating tags already added - if the tags were not there I'd not be here. And I have not ever questioned your re-rating. My ratings are provisional, a step on a journey, let those who know more about the topics rate them according to their perspective on importance. But removing tags takes them out of the Ireland-project embrace. I'm not a major fan of the quality of the thinking in that place myself - but it's where I want to live. Contempt for ignorance and stupidity is a burden we must bear. Think of it as akin to having piles. Sarah777 (talk) 09:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

The Irish seem pretty actively ignorant, like it's fashionable not to know too much about the past. Objectively I understand theirs doesn't do most of them any good and is irrelevant, but look at the ancient nonsense the Jews and others hold on to while managing to do well enough. And if you look you can find gemstones in Irish history and mythology the world of scholarship and even pop culture could use, like my friend Dáire here, although you can't tell from the article yet because I haven't finished the real life one to be cited in the future. The list itself is my own original research but as you can see not the problem kind, and I really only have O'Rahilly, MacNeil, and Pokorny's brief discussions to follow on this obviously major figure somehow related to Lugus. The name Dáire would seem to mean "Real Beastly Fucker" in origin so this guy is interesting too, not just any old god. What has not been explored in scholarship to my knowledge is the rather striking fact that he makes Cú Roí and Cú Chulainn close relatives if the various traditions are put together, and they both also have "hound names". The trouble is which traditions are Irish, British, or Continental? More than likely they understood an Otherworld on the Continent and so it will take a series of papers to reconstruct some of this.

Your choice of lair is interesting, but whatever floats your boat. You've seen my erratic temper now but I usually don't mean it when I snap at people. Moderate drinking makes me better but too much and I'm all over the place. My biggest problem right now is the fact that a lot of people seem to think I have HIV/AIDS, based on me complaining about about my immune system somewhere above, when I don't. But by coincidence it works as a reasonable explanation for some of my other complaining here, and could be the case considering the way I used to live. So now I have to finally tell everyone I smoked PCP, which is worse than just about anything. That shit, together with something else, fucked me up so badly I couldn't finish a lot of my sentences for a while. School? I shut down and stopped going. College really started in my mid twenties, after I got into other trouble. Two and a half years ago I had a relapse and after spending some time in the hospital went into rehab.

One of my uncles was worse. He drank three quarts of gin a day and ran drugs out in the Midwest! Now he's a weird amateur book critic who posts at Amazon. His mother, my grandmother, was upper class but his father was a cocksucking social climber from some Eastern European backwater you can't locate on the map anymore, hence my exotic haplotype. My aunt is a lesbian bitch getting high all the time with her inheritance. She's been fucked up every time I've called her for ten years. My father is such a loser it's incredible, and he's a thief. Most importantly they're all stupid, and good at tennis. They all think they're intelligent of course.

So maybe I'm not the worst person in the world. Rant over. Back to work. I'm sorry I snapped at you. DinDraithou (talk) 01:47, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, I'm seriously bad at tennis! Sarah777 (talk) 07:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't trust good tennis players. The ones I knew... drugs out on the counter... in the house of the Vice President of the Club...

If anyone is wondering, I'm just taking a few more days off walking around in circles thinking, and also preparing for a move to the city. Otherwise I'm alright, and considerably less fucked up than I could be. Plus I've got a brand new HTC ThunderBolt I'm learning how to use! But thank you. DinDraithou (talk) 19:07, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

It's a phone! And there was me thinkin' it was a motorbike. Sarah777 (talk) 19:22, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Wow, Sarah! I can't tell you why but that makes me look really bad! Damn! Now they'll think we know each other. There is a motorbike I need to fuck like no one else but use is the wrong word... or she can use me too. My dream is to cum in after the horse. DinDraithou (talk) 20:48, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Or at the same time if we can figure it out! But maybe I'm just talking nonsense. DinDraithou (talk) 21:25, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

For your work on Wiki

		The WikiProject Barnstar
		For brilliantly researched and crafted articles in a little visited but vital part of the Irish storey Sarah777 (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Yeah - I know. You probably regard barnstars as cheesy tripe - but you deserve one anyway :) Sarah777 (talk) 20:56, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you! I'll try to make this inspire me to finish a few more than otherwise might happen. I'm not a perfect writer but I do alright with some of the research. DinDraithou (talk) 21:31, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Uí Cheinnselaig

Please can you untwist the mess on List of Kings of Leinster in the period between the high and late medieval kings, if you know who they were, including the relationships between them. After Domhnall Caemanach's death in 1175 it becomes obscure and messy until Domhnall mac Art in 1323. The Annals don't seem to mention them either. - 90.208.181.18 (talk) 23:06, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. User:Fergananim has sources for this superior to mine, but he is probably busy with a thousand other things, and I am desperately in need of distraction from something I have gotten into and now could not get out of if I tried. You wouldn't believe it. They are fucking all over me and all I can do is finally say hello I guess, and of course it's got to be incredibly strange and complicated, with my obsession the ultimate cause of it all. So I'll learn what I can about these Leinster kings, which may take some time, and if I run into trouble I'll bother Fergananim. Thank you for asking for my help. I will be changing my username soon so you probably won't see DD here working on it. I'm fucking tired of him. He's a brute. DinDraithou (talk) 01:23, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

No, I don't actually want to say hello. I wish I had somebody else to do that for me. But I don't mean to call the kings of Leinster a distraction. DinDraithou (talk) 01:39, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Primary reason being I look like shit. You're baffled I'm certain so just ignore me. DinDraithou (talk) 02:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

And I ruin people's lives. I'm unpopular too, with the wrong people of course, and so mysterious to the right ones I've got them acting crazy. You are on the talk page of the biggest dickhead in the entire project, just so you know. DinDraithou (talk) 02:08, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The worst is over

Hello everyone,

Last Sunday, after getting very drunk over the weekend, I had the worst fight with my family in years and on Tuesday morning I found myself put in handcuffs for my part in it, mostly shouting. I then spent three days in the kind of facility where they try to convince you to go back into rehab or some intensive outpatient program, but can't force you to do that or anything else. I refused. The other party have found themselves a little in trouble with different authorities but this was not my intention, only to make sure they knew about terrible things that happened long ago.

MY FUCKING THIEF OF A FATHER owes me anywhere between $36,000 and $75,000 but I can't get it from him in time for New York City, so I'm going to do something extraordinary, which is attempt to live there homeless for a couple of months! Wow, right?! I can't stay where I've been living and don't have enough money to do anything except rent a storage unit for some of my things and eat respectably. Finding free showers and places to snooze won't be hard. I plan to spend much of my time in the libraries. The New York Public Library has a copy of The Life and Letters of Florence MacCarthy, which I have needed to study for years and will allow me to complete certain articles I have started here. Also Dáire remains in development.

More interested readers have seen shocking material from me in recent weeks and the most concerning has finally been dealt with in the last week, so no more of that. I needed to shout about it and the authorities know now. As far as my own personal interests they are unchanged.

I think I've got my drinking under control, and I should be up in the city in less than a week. I'll get my username changed and return to our articles as soon as I can.

More later. DinDraithou (talk) 02:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

sheltered.lake@gmail.com is the account linked to my new phone, if anyone should ever desperately need me. DinDraithou (talk) 05:17, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

At the moment I'm somewhere near Columbus Circle, watching Lady Gaga on the Late Show! DinDraithou (talk) 04:06, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

F*ck!!! Yesterday I was looking at the book and after waiting for a half an hour today I find out they've misshelved it! So I've had to request an intensive search for it and could have to wait for a week. Assuming they find it I can reserve it behind the counter so this won't happen again. DinDraithou (talk) 21:48, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

There is a cute black girl behind the counter I might try to talk to at some point. Nice ass too. I look at everything like anyone. DinDraithou (talk) 21:53, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

But there is only one girl out there I love, not counting a limited number of my near relations. DinDraithou (talk) 22:08, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Preakness Stakes

On right now. Who is watching? DinDraithou (talk) 20:32, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

So what is actually true?

Hello readers,

Despite being considered psychotic and delusional I do not make all that much up, usually minor details for specific reasons. My art is in how I put the material together for impact, to make myself seem better or worse. This is my spirit working, doing what he likes with my memories and knowledge, all for you. I get nothing. I am good at very little myself, I think, if there is such a person. I often stare at people vacantly. DinDraithou (talk) 03:08, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

He likes the attention and reaction, a lot, and leaves me perpetually terrified. DinDraithou (talk) 03:38, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

He wants to be famous for this and that, nothing criminal (at least not in New Jersey), but still very shocking. His problem right now is that I have become a proper coward and need stimulation and retraining. DinDraithou (talk) 00:01, 29 May 2011 (UTC)

What the fuck?

After getting drunk for cheap in Central Park, told to get the fuck out by the cops, and wandering on and around 6th Ave in the 50s last night, I was "gently mugged" and am now missing a number of valuable things.

This morning I woke up in the back seat of an Infiniti mini-suv with no one else in it. Only the back windows were tinted, and I was in a parking garage on 54th St right off 6th Ave.

Someone had untucked my shirt and carefully put me in there. I don't know how to break into a car except by breaking a window, something I've never done. This car was unlocked... and nothing else was in it except for me. Nothing.

My wallet was still in my pocket with my bank card and everything else, but my cash was gone.

My bag was gone. My jacket and my phone too.

I got outside the car and found the people who work there. Someone had carefully folded my jacket and left it there with my phone and earbuds in it for me to get.

No bag. I am missing:

• a brand new leather messenger bag worth $200
• a new portable hard drive with virtually my entire Lady Gaga collection on it, and a lot of porn. No work thankfully. What you wanted?
• two books on Hindu mythology
• a pair of black linen-cotton blend Emporio Armani pants I only wore three times. Fuck you.
• an old Adidas acrylic athletic shirt I was attached to
• MY KEYS to my storage unit. I had to pay for the old locks to be drilled and buy new ones.
• my toiletries. I had those fingernail clippers for ten years.
• MY PHONE CHARGER. I now have a new one.
• a small green towel. My Irish grandmother's eyes were green.
• two clear pink rubber cock rings with bumps on them
• a Trojan Magnum condom
• a mostly finished bottle of Listerine
• a bunch of receipts for things I have bought recently
• MY BRAND NEW RAY-BAN WAYFARERS I ONLY BOUGHT YESTERDAY EARLY AFTERNOON
• my blue eyeliner

Was I hanging out with you? If so thanks for getting me seriously fucked up and taking my stuff. Did I do anything funny?

Fuck you. DinDraithou (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

If you wanted my work I keep it hosted in bits and pieces online here and there. Good luck finding it. DinDraithou (talk) 00:49, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I have no names and no contact information in my phone. The people at the parking garage did not recognize the car, and unfortunately I was too dazed to record the licence plate number. DinDraithou (talk) 01:07, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

There was also a small, unopened jar of pesto sauce in my jacket. Apparently I went to a store. DinDraithou (talk) 01:10, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I vaguely recall Chinese people in the store. I wasn't with anyone then... that I knew about. DinDraithou (talk) 01:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm confident I didn't have sex with anyone. One can tell. DinDraithou (talk) 01:17, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

It's possible I got lost. I'm kind of remembering that a little. But I don't remember getting into anyone's car. DinDraithou (talk) 01:21, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

There were also two issues of New York magazine in my bag about where to find the best food. DinDraithou (talk) 01:25, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I was completely unharmed and don't hurt anywhere abnormal. No needle marks I'm aware of. DinDraithou (talk) 01:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

No coke nose either. DinDraithou (talk) 01:32, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm angriest about my Lady Gaga collection. After that my new sunglasses. DinDraithou (talk) 01:39, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

The employee I talked to at Central Park said it was fine to drink there. I saw people getting high. I'll bet the cops didn't like my leather jacket. DinDraithou (talk) 01:43, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I won't be drinking much if anything for a while now. This is what I needed to scare me, not rehab again. omg. DinDraithou (talk) 01:47, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

They didn't take anything traceable. DinDraithou (talk) 01:52, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I'd barely slept for days and got the best sleep I've gotten for a while in that car. DinDraithou (talk) 01:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I didn't even drink that much with my own money. I was more like "on my way." The sleep deprivation helped a lot. DinDraithou (talk) 02:12, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Who knows what happened later. I wisely did not call the cops. I know better. DinDraithou (talk) 02:14, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I can't remember a single fucking thing after maybe 1:00 AM. DinDraithou (talk) 02:20, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm going to be cold tonight because I left my jacket in my locker and the building closed thirty five minutes ago. Tomorrow I'm staying somewhere and will get to do laundry. DinDraithou (talk) 02:36, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

But there is a good chance some of my work is known now. Some of it. I would only have talked about what I've been thinking recently. There is material I left online several years ago which will take me a long time to find again. I probably have sixty old email accounts, and when I would make breakthroughs would sent them to myself. The major research stopped after my relapse in 2008 and since then I've only been refining certain concepts and developing related language. Digging out what will make it work will take months.

What you call something or something else works mechanically in your knowledge. But like an organism. A space that isn't lives inside you. DinDraithou (talk) 03:28, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

So treated it can be disrupted and forced into retreat, then possibly destroyed. It is a false form of knowledge, but its defeat requires not truth. Instead you need your own more sophisticated false forms over which you have central authority. These also become living, with their own associated space that isn't. DinDraithou (talk) 04:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

But then you should ask yourself why you are doing this. We'll try to get to that soon. DinDraithou (talk) 04:58, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Right now I am at the NYPL and have in front of me an important book I have not looked at for years. This is a first step in recovering what is possible of what I was working on until 2008. In my condition I lost some of it, but once I have refamiliarized myself with certain sources I can go looking. I hope also to discover anything I might have missed the first time and possibly find new directions in which to go.

Today I am requesting my username change, so I will not be able to log in again for a few days until they have completed it. When I come back I plan to complete the four articles Donal II O'Donovan, Donal III O'Donovan, Bissett family (Ireland), and Nicola Formichetti, before making significant contributions to any others. I lost important sources for the Bissetts with the portable hard drive but should be able to recover these from the computer (in Maryland) they were originally saved on. My new username, or rather my great-great-grandmother's, will be User:Nora lives. DinDraithou (talk) 20:57, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Like, wow!

Missed this, I was suffering from writer's block for a while there. "Nora lives" is a cool name. It reminds me of a house in a Stephen King novel called Sarah Laughs. All very spooky. Sarah777 (talk) 00:16, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Incredibly spooky. Instead of decreasing my shock is increasing. I don't know what to say. I'm glad Nora and I got our new username so quickly. Nice to see you again, Sarah! Nora lives (talk) 00:25, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

What a month! Have you bought Lady Gaga's new album Born This Way yet? The day it came out I bought the special edition (digital) at Amazon. I was immediately in love with the sound of "Electric Chapel" foremost, but all the songs are beautiful. The lyrics I understood for the first time today. "Bloody Mary" makes me dream too. Nora lives (talk) 02:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

"The Edge of Glory" is wonderful and I can't wait for the video. It looks like she is planning "Marry the Night" and "Black Jesus † Amen Fashion" next. "Electric Chapel" could be hard but "Bloody Mary"? I suppose it depends on if either could be a single. I don't pretend to know anything about how it works. Nora lives (talk) 03:12, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Lady Gaga, hmmmm? I'll check it out. "Buy" and "album" are not two words I'd place in the same sentence in this post-Napster era. Regards to Nora. Sarah777 (talk) 22:18, 2 June 2011 (UTC)

Please don't download it for free like that! It's worth your money and will make you feel good about yourself! Nora, who says hello, thinks so too. Nora lives (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

OK. I'll go to iTunes. It better be good or I'll send the debt collector 'round :) Sarah777 (talk) 20:17, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Sarah! Make sure you get the special/extended edition! You'll enjoy it. I'll make you. Nora lives (talk) 21:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Bloody 'eck. Cost me €14.99. I'll be back exactly one week from now. Judgement Day! Sarah777 (talk) 22:42, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Mind, I see I got one hour and 40 minutes for that........I'm assuming quantity ain't trumping quality. Track #3 playing in my ears as I type this...so far so good. But as an Eminem admirer, sometimes it takes at least 50 listens to really get it! (****** ******* ******** ******* ******* ********* ******* ******* ******** :) Sarah777 (talk) 23:13, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

I figured you weren't familiar with her. Just keep in mind that she writes her own songs and that many are meant to mean different things to different people, if you don't "get" some of them. She writes them in her head or on napkins (as she says) or while at the piano, and then they are produced to be danceable. But she still performs them with only herself on the piano for accompaniment on occasion, and they still sound wonderful. Her voice is the biggest part of her sound.

I don't know anything about your Em there. Nora lives (talk) 23:44, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

What can I say about Em? In the words of the old Beatles song - he may be a lover but he ain't no dancer! Sarah777 (talk) 00:53, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

His material on the radio is excellent. I don't know about his dancing. Before Gaga I was listening to Vivaldi, Vangelis and other space music, and trance, and had missed the last more than ten years of popular music. But for over a year now I've listened to the radio and recognize Eminem is definitely one of the truly talented artists. That song he did with Rihanna impresses me. There was one before that too. Nora lives (talk) 20:15, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Before the car wreck when I was 21, I was widely known for playing not a little Bach and some of my own stuff on the old piano, Hammond organ, and Yamaha electronic keyboard I owned. They're all gone now. My only lessons ever were from a notable conductor/director who has performed at Carnegie Hall and the Kennedy Center. Nora lives (talk) 20:45, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Sarah, I hope you understand but I've had to remove a little of what you wrote above, even if you were just being funny. Normally it would be alright, but I'm an editor with special rights and quite a number of people follow my pages. Eminem may very well have seen the above and be angry. People associated with me might suffer for it.

I am very sorry, everyone. When I said I didn't know anything about him I was not intending to agree with anything said before that. Eminem is a very talented artist and it just happens to be the caseh that he and his music are different from what I was into for so long. I have been aware of him for years, but have never looked into him. That's all. Whatever else is just coincidence. I see there might have been something at some point. Nothing said here is in response to that. I think everyone should be friends. If things get worse there could be a problem in the future, so again I am sorry and want this to stop. I am sorry whether I am reading things correctly or not. Nora lives (talk) 03:04, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Looks like I was just imagining things. Nora lives (talk) 19:55, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

How do N lives?! Can't even remember what it was I said that you removed - but it wasn't anything negatory about GaGa and her little monsters! I see from the latest pics in the media she has taken to a minimalist line in clothing! Sarah777 (talk) 20:09, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi, Sarah! I'm so sorry. I missed your last post here. Never mind about whatever it was. I'm drinking whiskey all morning these days and not making very much sense. My few friends in this world don't know what to do with me. Nora lives (talk) 15:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Hairy old joke

Reminds me of an old joke (apologies if you've heard it):

A Redemptorist preacher railed at his congregation during a mission at the evils of drink, so he produced a glass of water, a glass of whiskey, and two worms.

"Now, observe closely the worms," he said, putting a worm first into the water. The worm in the water writhed about, happy as a worm in water could be.

The second worm, he put into the whiskey. It writhed painfully, and quickly sank to the bottom, dead as a doornail.

"Now, what lesson can we learn from this?" he roared.

A drunk at the back of the Church shouted - "Drink whiskey and you won't get worms."

Sarah777 (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

I love it! My first time.

On Saturday I went, or rather drifted into St. Patrick's Cathedral on 5th Ave shortly before closing, and sat down all the way up like an important person. No one was preaching. I don't know what they say or do in such a place, but I plan to come back for mass and so on to find out what it's all about, to study them. If I sense their Holy Spirit I'll tackle him and pour some whiskey down his throat. We'll see what he's about then. Hopefully girls, but you never know. Nora lives (talk) 21:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

God lives in the knowledge of his followers. Change their knowledge and the Spirit is yours. One is a function of the other.

Have some fun with that. Incredible, but easier said than done. We are just getting started.

I do not want it myself. I have greater plans. Perhaps there are superior forms of knowledge to the divine.

huh? Nora lives (talk) 06:50, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Readers, that is not what I meant. "It" remains undefined, and those plans involve you. What I am seeing makes me happy. Now I know more than before. If I had the degrees I want, years away, our relationship would be different, and less possible. Without them I have much more freedom. Nora lives (talk) 19:10, 23 June 2011 (UTC)

Tonight I should have my first place in the city, a little room in Hamilton Heights. My appointment is in two hours. Nora lives (talk) 20:31, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

Got the place, but it has no internet, so they're going to find me another in a week or two. Thankfully my phone is a hotspot.

Will be calling up old friends when I'm better situated, and later on contacting some other people once I've changed my name.

The research continues in the library, mostly offline. "Offline" I am doing quite a lot everywhere, in my fashion, dreaming this and that up. There has been a girl involved since early last year. A great deal remains unknown to her. (Now I sound like I'm a fictional character.) Nora lives (talk) 01:47, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Cock sez to the silver thingy - "Does there have to be a reason for everything?

New tablet

Hello readers,

What was I saying? It turns out this tablet is not very good for Wikipedia, so I will probably return it and buy the unfortunately lower resolution but more functional iPad 2. Nora lives (talk) 22:29, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, now I'm trying the browser Opera and it's better. It moves far more quickly and actually lets me copy & paste! Nora lives (talk) 19:50, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Skyfire this time, slower than Opera but not quirky so far. Nora lives (talk) 20:03, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Dolphin, slow too. Nora lives (talk) 20:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Alright, this device is officially annoying. I'm pretty sure I'll buy an iPad now. Otherwise I'll never get any work done. Nora lives (talk) 21:43, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

test Nora lives (talk) 02:55, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

iPad 2

Now I have one, and am using the excellent Wiki Edit app, and typing on my new Bluetooth keyboard (Apple). Everything works. Thank you Apple. The 720p I can suffer with for this excellent performance.

I'm happier today, so about this winter... we'll see. What do you want from me?

Do you need more to look at here? Maybe. Arguably you all need more background, but it's getting less and less for everyone to have fun with and gets increasingly complicated. Soon enough we get mostly into my material. For some people in particular I am continuing to develop new material and will have to get it to them somehow. Not to appear here.

Elsewhere it would be nice to see the fashion credits for recent weeks. Nicola Formichetti appears to have stopped posting to his blog.

DJ White Shadow should have an article. He being newly notable, I might have to ask around first, but we'll see. Nora lives (talk) 13:40, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Why do you want to get addicted to heroin? (Only askin') Sarah777 (talk) 22:43, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

The challenge. To impress people. Escape. Survival. My life is a joke. Hallucinations. Great fury. Suspicious timing. Official stories. Imaginary friends who like my ideas. Start-ups. Newspapers. You name it. Incidentally I have been blocked until 2016 now because my new virtual private network, a free one (maybe not the best choice),[15] has gotten the system angry. This is the explanation provided, which I don't even understand:

The IP address that you are currently using has been blocked because it is believed to be an open proxy. To prevent abuse, these proxies may be blocked from editing Wikipedia. If you believe you are not running an open proxy, the most likely cause is that another customer from your ISP who was previously assigned this IP address was running an open proxy. If this is the case, please request to be unblocked using the {unblock} template, or request administrator attention using {admin!} and indicate you are caught by an open proxy block. More rarely, your network equipment or that of your service provider may be misconfigured or compromised by malicious software (such as a virus). In some cases, this can be remedied by logging into the secure server. For more information, see the Wikiproject on Open Proxies and Wikipedia:Open proxies.

I have the feeling this will take forever to resolve, which is a shame because I was just getting started on one of my very favourite articles again. It's a hallucination too. I think this all is. If it's not then I am really fucking popular. They can't get enough of me. I'm the best to follow for this and that on the entire fucking Internet. Ask my imaginary girlfriend. Nora lives (talk) 04:22, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Donnell of the skins

Would it not be more in line to call this article Domhnall na g-Croiceann, as he was known as such in his lifetime? Fergananim (talk) 06:21, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Sure! Sorry I haven't been making much sense lately. It's been the withdrawal talking, and I'm going back and forth on whether I should worry about the intentions of all sorts of people I used to know and others I am getting to know now. I don't have anything sorted out. After a few beers I make sense again. Then back to paranoia, and so on. What's nice is that it looks like I've gotten unblocked quickly, and when I check my email will thank whoever helped me.

On to Donnell I, sure, but it would be a little strange for his son and III and IV. The MacCarthys and I think also the O'Sullivans sometimes did the same thing too. Scholars have a hard time sorting some of them out. Donnells III and IV sometimes get confused because people don't realize III was probably over 80, possibly closer to 90, when he died in 1660. Back to Donnell I, I really have no excuse for not finishing his article and feel ashamed because I am a descendant. I managed to finish Ímar Ua Donnubáin's and should have gone back right away. I've probably got 10,000+ cousins out there wondering what the fuck I'm doing when I clearly have (enough) sources to at least make Domhnall na g-Croiceann's look finished. Great name too. He was just a semi-regional phenom but a real ass-kicker, gets mentioned once in the AFM for his son's activity and shows up in the fiants having gotten in trouble alongside the MacCarthy Reagh for something. The Fiants of Elizabeth weren't online yet the last time I searched but Ó Murchada mentions it. Then there is what is essentially the "Saga of Domhnall na g-Croiceann" as compiled by Collins of Myross, which I only have a little part of. It bears a vague resemblance to an Icelandic family saga in style.

Finally, there's another great thing about you showing up. Up above at User talk:Nora lives#Uí Cheinnselaig a request has been made of me, and I have tried to get A New History of Ireland IX for it but have been unsuccessful. They just don't have a copy in New York City or apparently anywhere in the region. Nowhere. I tried interlibrary loan and no luck. If I had the time anymore I could do the annals, which might take the better part of a week, but I simply don't, so that book would have to be it. Could you maybe have a look? Nora lives (talk) 12:04, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

And the funny thing is, Fergananim, I grew up being mistreated by lesser people in large part because I resembled my Donovan grandmother in appearance and temperament, and they went to lengths to try to prevent her from helping me and make me dislike her. In fact I was told I bore a resemblance to her father, of whom I have never been given a picture. He studied the classics at Georgetown University, lived on a boat when an old man, and that is all I know. So Irish custom be damned and I really am an O'Donovan. Our family is mixed anyway, and I have sort of known I'm accepted to some degree since a very distant cousin in Ireland from an early sept sent me an email a while back offering to send me his copy of The Life and Letters of Florence MacCarthy for my articles here. Also my pedigree is accurate and should be easy to verify for a fee. I don't know if I should change my name before or after... or to what exactly. I've been trying to decide for years. It would make sense to make the family name my middle and choose for my last something appropriate for a sept. My first I think will be either Rag(h)nall/Ivar or Finghin (for the MacCarthy in me), the other of which will be next, and then in the very middle my great-great grandmother Nora's. Five is a lot for America but I don't care. Nora lives (talk) 00:28, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

Call me Finghin or Ivar, my friends. I will respond to both, and to Nora. She died alone... and freezing, in her room. She had pneumonia and it was winter, and it was the advice of an incompetent doctor that the window be opened. Her husband was home. She had been busy with her writing and artwork and not enough has survived. The rest of her descendants have all but forgotten about her, if they even know she existed. Some of her lives in me. Nora lives (talk) 10:21, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

What year? Sarah777 (talk) 22:52, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Normally I don't remember years and dates. Very few, my mother's, my little sister's, and my imaginary girlfriend's birthdays. I don't know my father's and if you can believe it have forgotten my own once or twice. I want to say 1913. 191-something. The information is down in Maryland. Nora lives (talk) 07:30, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

GLAM-Wiki Baltimore meetup

You are invited to the first Wikipedia Baltimore meetup on Saturday, July 23, 10:00am-12:30pm at the Walters Art Museum. Come meet Wikimedians, learn about GLAM-Wiki partnerships, get involved, and discuss future wiki outreach and activities in the Baltimore area!

There also is a Wikipedia & Cultural Heritage at the Young Preservationist Happy Hour on Friday, July 22, 6:30pm at the Midtown Yacht Club, an unpretentious neighborhood pub.

---

Note: You can remove your name from the Baltimore meetup invite list here. -- Message delivered by AudeBot, on behalf of User:Aude

Count of Tyrone and MacCarthy Mor

More or less fixed up as I would like it; the references need more work, and it should probably note the O'Neill branches (such as the Marquis of Granja) which have not used "Count of Tyrone" in passing. Let me know what you think.

I don't really know Gaelic; what is the genitive of Art Óg? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:16, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

I don't really know Gaelic either, but I've seen Art in the genitive plenty of times and it is Airt, as in Cormac mac Airt. For Óg, here is our answer (Óig).[16] The article Irish name is also helpful.

Nice work with the article. Princeton03 has helped me out by doing something nice for the Bissetts, and given me important information, so I'm back with him if and when he reappears. But it's possible not all of his information is the best (mine isn't always, so I keep looking), and we must remember that he has been helping out distant cousins. To the article, the way you have it written makes a lot of issues clearer and it is good and neutral. I believe Hugo Ricciardi O'Neill prefers O'Neill of Clanaboy to Prince of Clanaboy, and why he doesn't style himself Prince of Ailech is beyond me, but whatever. Nora lives (talk) 20:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

From his comments in Ellis, Hugo Ricciardi's position seems to be

• he hasn't been chosen Prince of Ailech.
• Since nobody has been Prince of Ailech (or Prince of Ulster, or The O'Neill) for some centuries, nobody is within the limits of derbfine, and so nobody is eligible. His great-grandfather was definitely O'Neill of Clanaboy, so he can be. (I'll check Ellis on which form; thanks.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:47, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Someone close to him created all those articles on him and his family, and then he himself appeared in early January to fill them out, which led to a skirmish of course. I supported him, and trust the style as given in his article, although it seems to vary across the sources. Ambassador Walter Curley, in his 2004 Vanishing Kingdoms: The Irish Chiefs and their Families (Dublin: Lilliput Press), styles HRO'Neill The O'Neill, Prince of Clanaboy if I remember correctly, and goes on to explain that by then he had won a genealogical dispute with the Prince of the Fews and is now the leading O'Neill claimant to the High Kingship. Curley does not go into detail on the genealogical dispute, but apparently certain people out there do consider our subject (The) O'Neill. For more references see Gaelic nobility of Ireland, nearly all my work, but it needs updating and expansion. That chapter in Nash is the newest and worth reading. And Chief of the Name if you haven't looked yet (not my work).

A lot of my contributions you could argue are borderline COI, but I'm very careful and could tell that he was being so too. Being a MacCarthy Reagh partisan/descendant I once made some unfortunate contributions I later decided to go back and remove. If you think the O'Neill situation is wild... well, you surely know. Actually I came along after the MacCarthy business and have no idea what is going on with them these days. Someone has been inserting that they have chosen someone new and Yopie has been removing it.[17][18][19] Not sure about all that. Nora lives (talk) 23:39, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Here is their website,[20] which I missed before. Surprisingly well researched. Looks like it could be my responsibility to investigate. Nora lives (talk) 23:57, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Holy shit! This is fucking wild.[21] They're trying to say the MacCarthy Mor gets Carbery and Muskerry now. It doesn't fucking work that way. My family (O'Donovan) has as much or greater claim to Carbery if no MacCarthy Reagh lineage survives. More unbelievably I think one does, certified by the Knights of Malta. What the fuck? Nora lives (talk) 00:10, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Oh my fucking heavens. That website is a reaction to my presence here. I now have a completely new fiasco I have to deal with, and need to email my cousins. Nora lives (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

But then at the same time they've obviously seen me argue in favour of Gaelicized families and have chosen to agree.[22] Nora lives (talk) 00:41, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

My ancestors were the MacCarthy Reagh's deputy kings and warlords, and before that played a major role in the formation of Carbery itself, perhaps as the first kings of it. From the 1650s The O'Donovan has been the only Gaelic lord of Carbery, the MacCarthy Reagh's only successor in the region, and this man is going to learn about it. I am going to tear into him, MacCarthy Mor or not, for daring to claim some species of sovereignty over my family. If he has the pedigree he says he does this is top priority. No O'Donovan ever submitted to a MacCarthy Mor.

We'll see how tough he is, then maybe come to an understanding. This is how it is done. His association, however many actually belong, do not scare me at all. Last time I checked another person was considered a possible claimant and this fellow has a lot of explaining to do. We'll see if he can show me a pedigree. That would get him a mention in the project as a claimant and I would be able to offer him a new section in one of the articles here. Nora lives (talk) 09:30, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

The last prominent MacCarthy association is famous for having faux-military elements who threatened people who challenged them with "surveillance" and so on. This man would be foolish to bring people like that in. Nora lives (talk) 10:04, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Bringing a whole new meaning to MacCarthyism, I see. ;-> Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:45, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

(still laughing!) I am living in a nightmare. Unfortunately this fellow does not appear to be in a very strong position yet and this will likely not distract me for long. I am guilty myself of once taking a position here and am looking at a response to that. When you are new, like I was when I took it, you are new to the policies. I had picked up from somewhere that a MacCarthy Reagh or MacCarthy of Muskerry would be preferable to a MacCarthy Mor from a minor sept, or the notion formed itself from different sources in my head, and I put it in an article or two here and left it there for months. A genealogist might have been discussing it or something similar online, and it happens that I am also a descendant of the MacCarthys of Muskerry through the MacCarthys Reagh, and the notion made its way into those articles. Naturally I would want a relatively near cousin with the title Prince of Desmond, right?

So here we are, and I am guilty of making this man unhappy first... if he really is a MacCarthy Mor. He has carefully downgraded my ancestors in status from princely to comital, perhaps following the interesting theories of his "predecessor" Terence Francis MacCarthy, and has made no mention of the fact that the Kingdom of Desmond was saved from the Normans by Fínghin Mac Carthaigh (~Reagh) and that the O'Donovans are believed to have been right alongside him in that effort. I understand his reaction but he has gone too far with his claims and omissions, and I cannot allow them to spread. Most people do not know any better, and the last MacCarthy association attracted a huge international following and made a lot of money. Ever heard of the Niadh Nask? James Shortt? You cannot make this stuff up.

This could be big, but my real problems in life are much bigger. You would not believe the mess I am in. Tackling a prince still struggling with limited recognition at this point in his career, and who might turn out to be a fine person, will be easy in comparison to what could be upcoming, if I can stop drinking so much. I have been challenged by a world class team out there, in more ways than one.

You seem extremely resourceful and determined. Wanna help or join me? I am thinking about telling some heavyweights in the project, the sort who love a challenge. You might laugh at what a ridiculous drunken fool I am but what I've gotten myself into is pretty insane. I need some bad motherfuckers on my team or at least in the know. For some reason I haven't let my friends here in on it yet. I might even tell Deacon, who would certainly laugh. Maybe I should post my situation on the big boards, but I don't know if I'm playing a game with friends or a pack of laughing thieves yet and don't want to ruin anything. Interested? Nora lives (talk) 03:53, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Feel free to write my talk page, and I'll come look, but I don't think I want to specialize in Irish genealogy. The limited namestock is confusing, and there doesn't seem to be any truly authoritative source. (For example, I think Sir Felim O'Neill is a MacShane, and that his house is now extinct in the male line; but I don't have a real source for either.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:53, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

(Evidently you are watching, my dear MacCarthy Mór, so hello. I will email you this week if possible to discuss what I can do for you here and what I cannot depending on what information you are willing to give me. I am not terribly fond of one of the pages on your website but I realize it is a response in part to some of my early contributions here, which I am sorry about.) Nora lives (talk) 22:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

(If you want more from me, like some work on Kingdom of Desmond, or perhaps a devoted MacCarthy Mór (title) article, the claims on that page will need to be modified. The status of my family is none of your business, and that includes the MacCarthys Reagh. You should know better. The situation with Muskerry I know less about.) Nora lives (talk) 23:06, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I remember the context now. Someone was discussing the possibility or likelihood that Samuel Trant McCarthy, in The MacCarthys of Munster, manipulated the facts to make his family appear the closest, and therefore any descendants or relatives might have problems. So I think I ended up combining that with my detailed knowledge of the MacCarthys Reagh and to some extent the later generations of the Muskerry dynasty, and I was coming to what I thought must be the conclusion everyone had already made, namely that there probably could be no eligible MacCarthy Mór, and so a MacCarthy Reagh or Muskerry would have to be chosen. Because they are my distant family I went on about it here. That's what fucking happened! Nora lives (talk) 06:38, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Also an unknown number of people still seem to think that a modern Prince of Desmond would have to be a descendant of Florence MacCarthy. Nora lives (talk) 06:41, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Can you keep a secret?

The traditional dialogue is:

A: "Can you keep a secret?"

B: "Yes."

A:"So can I."

Good luck; if you want, when sober, to share a secret with a Wikipedian, e-mail me. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 13:48, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

Ui Fearba/Hy Ferba

Hi there. Do you have any information on the pre-Norman peoples of this area, centered around Ardfert, County Kerry? Who were the main peoples, and anything on the backgrounds of its coarb and erenagh clans? Fergananim (talk) 20:21, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

No, I am afraid I do not, but I can do some searching when I get the chance. Most of my collection is lost, thousands of files from over the years, and I also did not specialize in County Kerry, only enough to do the Corcu Duibne at one point. But Ardfert rings a bell because there is an O'Donnell family from there who claim descent from the Tyrconnell ones, and they are friends of the Duke of Tetuan. I got in a fight with a relative of Francis Martin O'Donnell, one of them, last year but he or she turned out to be alright in the end, and I think later got somebody else to help me with something unrelated, which was very nice because I beat the fuck out of them for a while, like I sometimes do, so much so that the poor person, who was just not used to it, complained at ANI. He or she, namely User:Seneschally and User:Max Kaertner (two old accounts) might be able to help. Possibly you could find something in MacCotter. I do not have my copy anymore. Nora lives (talk) 21:19, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Cheers! I'll see what they have. All the best, Fergananim (talk) 19:19, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Old_Norse#Old_Norse_pronunciation_and_IPA

Hey Din/Nora. How's your Old Norse? Could you render a few names into IPA for me? No worries if you can't, I don't know if I've seen many other articles give them (only a handfull use the Old Norse IPA template (Template:IPA-non).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:43, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

It has been a while. I taught myself (some) Old Norse before I got into linguistics, and I don't have my grammar or dictionary with me, but thankfully I do have König and Van der Aurewa's The Germanic Languages with me, which includes a chapter "Old and Middle Scandinavian," the contribution by Jan Terje Faarlund, and he gives a valuable discussion of the phonology and grammar, etc. I don't know what possessed me to bring it up here to NYC before some other titles, it being one of my old textbooks for Germanic philology, but I think I can help you out! I very much recommend the volume, which is seriously valuable, for the modern languages as well. The terminology linguists use, some of which happens to be taken from the biological sciences, can take some getting used to, but you may already be familiar with more than you think.

I've been saying "some" a lot and need to move on to a new favourite word soon... but what do you need? Give me the list and I'll work on them as I can. Nora lives (talk) 23:17, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

My old favourite of them all, Winfred P. Lehmann, contributes on "Gothic and the Reconstruction of Proto-Germanic." Nora lives (talk) 23:30, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

For the pronunciation of Old West Norse / Old Icelandic, [23] halfway down the page is useful and scholarly. The pronunciation is not learned instantly, and sometimes you just have to guess, like whether a p should sound like an f or not. (The sound system of) Modern Icelandic has diverged considerably but is a an alternative modern scholars sometimes choose when reading Old Norse aloud. I taught myself the original but am very rusty. Nora lives (talk) 02:26, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. At the moment I could use "Óláfr Guðrøðarson" (for Olaf the Black and Olaf I Godredsson) and "Haraldr Guðrøðarson". Some of the other Crovan-names would be useful too. So others like: Guðrøðr, Rögnvaldr, Magnús, and Lögmaðr; and then the patronyms: Óláfsson and Rögnvaldsson. They'll go in the lead sections of the bios, like how you did it with Uí Ímair. Linguistic terminology is completely above me, I have never taken anything like it in school, but the utexas link is great since it gives me a rough idea of sounds. I tried teaching myself some Gaelic once, but after a couple months of puttering around with simple 'self-taught' cds and books and on my own, I lost the enthusiasm for it and gave up. I've heard that the best place to learn a language is in the bed of a native speaker, unfortunately for me there aren't too many Gaels or Norwegians where I live. :p--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 07:57, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Old Norse pronunciation: ['oːlaːvr 'guðruðarsson] (There are others possibilites, but I am happy enough with this for a start. It's a "best judgement" question.) Nora lives (talk) 10:46, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Old Norse pronunciation: ['haraldr 'guðruðarsson] Nora lives (talk) 11:08, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Following LokiClock I've changed /sː/ to /ss/, and looking at Faarlund more closely I've replaced /ø/ with /u/, it being unstressed. We're getting there. Here are Old Norse pronunciation: ['oːlaːvsson] and Old Norse pronunciation: ['rɒgnvaldsson]. In the case of the latter maybe we could go with a diphthong, like might have led eventually to Reynolds, but I think in this period, noting how the English preferred to call these individuals Ragnald or Reginald, we're still looking at gnv, /n/ being a (voiced) sonorant. Looking at the á in Óláfr/Óláfsson I'm beginning to think I should shorten it just to /a/ but haven't decided yet. Nora lives (talk) 15:40, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh and Old Norse pronunciation: ['guðruðr] (probably), Old Norse pronunciation: ['rɒgnvaldr], and Old Norse pronunciation: ['lɒgmaðr], still keeping it simple. Magnús I'm a little worried about because it was borrowed into the language and might not follow all the native rules. Nora lives (talk) 15:54, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Some fine points: Whether Rǫgnvaldr was Old Norse pronunciation: [rɒgnvaldr] vs. Old Norse pronunciation: [rɒgnwaldr] is unknown - this change is, unfortunately, dated to precisely and only as precisely as the century he lived in. Due to compounding rules, -maðr should not be unstressed. For deciding Óláfr vs. Ólafr, Cleasby-Vigfússon is illuminating, but may leave it open to arbitration. ᛭ LokiClock (talk) 19:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the link! I should check my English sources on the Ragnalls (the Gaels of course having difficulty with it), especially every source on Ragnall ua Ímair because he is the earliest. Who knows about Óláfr. Nora lives (talk) 00:34, 12 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks

Much obliged. To explain, not that you have any need to care:

It's about two things:

• One entrenched clique thinks that their favorite guideline page should be run by majority vote, and that minorities should be ignored. They - and their favorite admin - are shocked, shocked to find that this has produced, as expected, a dissentient and non-consenting minority.
• On this, another disgruntled editor has piggy-backed his pet complaint. He believes in the fringe view that democracies never fight each other, and chimed into a discussion on the side which defends this by arguing that Athens wasn't a democracy. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:49, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion for WikiProject United States to support WikiProject Maryland

It was recently suggested that WikiProject Maryland might be inactive or semiactive and it might be beneficial to include it in the list of projects supported by WikiProject United States. I have started a discussion on the projects talk page soliciting the opinions of the members of the project if this project would be interested in being supported by WikiProject United States. Please feel free to comment on your opinions about this suggestion. --Kumioko (talk) 02:58, 17 August 2011 (UTC)

Gaelic Nobility

I removed the following statements, due to it being original research: " (This is the most comprehensive modern treatment, and thus indispensable, but Ellis was unfortunately one of those terribly deceived by Terence Francis MacCarthy, which should be kept in mind throughout when studying (more so the first edition of his book). Ellis' scholarship is also unreliable for several families, or for Irish history in general prior to the Norman invasion.)" I see no sources listed for any of the above. Would you care to tell me how something with no sources is "perfectly sourced"? I'll have you know that I don't care how long you've been around, and that you should give WP:OWN a read. Dbpjmuf (talk) 15:28, 22 August 2011 (UTC)