Talk:Climate change

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This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations:

Sarah McBroom (March 27, 2007). "Conservapedia.com -- an encyclopedic message from the right". Scripps Howard News Service.
Michael Booth (April 30, 2007). "Grading Wikipedia". The Denver Post.
Lawrence Solomon (July 8, 2008). "Wikipropaganda On Global Warming". CBS News.

This page is not a forum for general discussion about Climate change. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Climate change at the Reference desk.

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Frequently asked questions

To view an answer, click the [show] link to the right of the question. To view references used by an answer, you must also click the [show] for references at the bottom of the FAQ.

Q1: Is there really a scientific consensus on climate change?

A1: Yes. The IPCC findings of recent warming as a result of human influence are explicitly recognized as the "consensus" scientific view by the science academies of all the major industrialized countries. No scientific body of national or international standing presently rejects the basic findings of human influence on recent climate. This scientific consensus is supported by over 99% of publishing climate scientists.^[1]

Q2: How can we say climate change is real when it's been so cold in such-and-such a place?

A2: This is why it is termed "global warming", not "(such-and-such a place) warming". Even then, what rises is the average temperature over time – that is, the temperature will fluctuate up and down within the overall rising trend. To give an idea of the relevant time scales, the standard averaging period specified by the World Meteorological Organisation (WMO) is 30 years. Accordingly, the WMO defines climate change as "a statistically significant variation in either the mean state of the climate or in its variability, persisting for an extended period (typically decades or longer)."^[2]

Q3: Can't the increase of CO₂ be from natural sources, like volcanoes or the oceans?

A3: While these claims are popular among global warming skeptics,^[3]^[4] including academically trained ones,^[5]^[6] they are incorrect. This is known from any of several perspectives:

Current human emissions of CO₂ are at least 100 times larger than volcanic emissions. Measurements of CO₂ levels over the past 50 years do not show any significant rises after eruptions.^[7] This is easily seen in a graph of CO₂ concentrations over the past 50 years: the strongest eruption during the period, that of Mount Pinatubo in 1991, produced no increase in the trend.
Isotopic analysis of atmospheric carbon dioxide shows the observed change in the ratio of carbon isotopes reflects the isotopic ratios in fossil fuels.^[8]
Atmospheric oxygen content is decreasing at a rate that agrees with the amount of oxygen being used to burn fossil fuels.^[9]
If the oceans were giving up some of their carbon dioxide, their carbon dioxide concentration would have to decrease. But instead we are measuring an increase in the oceans' carbon dioxide concentration, resulting in the oceans becoming more acidic (or in other words, less basic).^[10]

Q4: I think the article is missing some things, or has some things wrong. Can I change it?

A4: Yes. Keep in mind that your points need to be based on documented evidence from the peer-reviewed literature, or other information that meets standards of verifiability, reliability, and no original research. If you do not have such evidence, more experienced editors may be able to help you find it (or confirm that such evidence does not exist). You are welcome to make such queries on the article's talk page but please keep in mind that the talk page is for discussing improvements to the article, not discussing the topic. There are many forums that welcome general discussions of global warming, but the article talk page is not such a forum.

Q5: Why haven't the graphs been updated?

A5: Two reasons:

There are many images used in the articles related to global warming, and there are many reasons why they may not be updated with the latest data. Some of the figures, like the Global Warming Map, are static, meaning that they are intended to show a particular phenomenon and are not meant to be updated frequently or at all. Others, like the Instrumental Temperature Record and Northern Hemisphere Sea Ice Extent Anomalies, use yearly data and thus are updated once per year—usually in mid- to late-January, depending upon when the data is publicly released, and when a volunteer creates the image. Still others, like Mauna Loa Carbon Dioxide, use monthly data. These are updated semi-regularly.
However, just because an image is 6 months or a year old does not mean it is useless. Robert A. Heinlein is credited with saying, "Climate is what you expect, weather is what you get", meaning that climate is defined as a long-term average of weather, usually about 30 years. This length was chosen to eliminate the year-to-year variations.^[11] Thus, in terms of climate change, any given year's data is of little import.

Q6: Isn't climate change "just a theory"?

A6: People who say this are abusing the word "theory" by conflating its common meaning with its scientific meaning. In common usage, "theory" can mean a hunch or guess, but a scientific theory, roughly speaking, means a coherent set of explanations that is compatible with observations and that allows predictions to be made. That the temperature is rising is an observation. An explanation for this (also known as a hypothesis) is that the warming is primarily driven by greenhouse gases (such as CO₂ and methane) released into the atmosphere by human activity. Scientific models have been built that predict the rise in temperature and these predictions have matched observations. When scientists gain confidence in a hypothesis because it matches observation and has survived intense scrutiny, the hypothesis may be called a "theory". Strictly speaking, scientific theories are never proven, but the degree of confidence in a theory can be discussed. The scientific models now suggest that it is "extremely likely" (>95%) to "virtually certain" (>99%) that the increases in temperature have been caused by human activity as discussed in the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report. Global warming via greenhouse gases by human activity is a theory (in the scientific sense), but it is most definitely not just a hunch or guess.

Q7: Does methane cause more warming than CO₂?

A7: It's true that methane is more potent molecule for molecule. But there's far less of it in the atmosphere, so the total effect is smaller. The atmospheric lifetime of methane (about 10 years) is a lot shorter than that of CO₂ (hundreds to thousands of years), so when methane emissions are reduced the concentration in the atmosphere soon falls, whereas CO₂ accumulates in the atmosphere over long periods. For details see the greenhouse gas and global warming potential articles.

Q8: How can you say there's a consensus when lists of "skeptical scientists" have been compiled?

A8: Consensus is not the same as unanimity, the latter of which is impractical for large groups. Over 99% of publishing climate scientists agree on anthropogenic climate change.^[1] This is an extremely high percentage well past any reasonable threshold for consensus. Any list of "skeptical scientists" would be dwarfed by a comparably compiled list of scientists accepting anthropogenic climate change.

Q9: Did climate change end in 1998?

A9: One of the strongest El Niño events in the instrumental record occurred during late 1997 through 1998, causing a spike in global temperature for 1998. Through the mid-late 2000s this abnormally warm year could be chosen as the starting point for comparisons with later years in order to produce a cooling trend; choosing any other year in the 20th century produced a warming trend. This no longer holds since the mean global temperatures in 2005, 2010, 2014, 2015 and 2016 have all been warmer than 1998.^[12] More importantly, scientists do not define a "trend" by looking at the difference between two given years. Instead they use methods such as linear regression that take into account all the values in a series of data. The World Meteorological Organisation specifies 30 years as the standard averaging period for climate statistics so that year-to-year fluctuations are averaged out;^[2] thus, 10 years isn't long enough to detect a climate trend.

Q10: Wasn't Greenland much warmer during the period of Norse settlement?

A10: Some people assume this because of the island's name. In fact the Saga of Erik the Red tells us Erik named the new colony Greenland because "men will desire much the more to go there if the land has a good name."^[13] Advertising hype was alive and well in 985 AD.

While much of Greenland was and remains under a large ice sheet, the areas of Greenland that were settled by the Norse were coastal areas with fjords that, to this day, remain quite green. You can see the following images for reference:

A map of the Eastern Settlement
A satellite image of that area today
A map of the Western Settlement
A satellite image of that area today
A zoom in on the general area where the Brattahlíð (Erik the Red's farm) and Garðar farms were located

Q11: Are the IPCC reports prepared by biased UN scientists?

A11: The IPCC reports are not produced by "UN scientists". The IPCC does not employ the scientists who generate the reports, and it has no control over them. The scientists are internationally recognized experts, most with a long history of successful research in the field. They are employed by various organizations including scientific research institutes, agencies like NASA and NOAA, and universities. They receive no extra pay for their participation in the IPCC process, which is considered a normal part of their academic duties.

Q12: Hasn't global sea ice increased over the last 30 years?

A12: Measurements show that it has not.^[14] Claims that global sea ice amounts have stayed the same or increased are a result of cherry picking two data points to compare, while ignoring the real (strongly statistically significant) downward trend in measurements of global sea ice amounts.

Arctic sea ice cover is declining strongly; Antarctic sea ice cover has had some much smaller increases, though it may or may not be thinning, and the Southern Ocean is warming. The net global ice-cover trend is clearly downwards.

Q13: Weren't scientists telling us in the 1970s that the Earth was cooling instead of warming?

A13: They weren't – see the article on global cooling. An article in the Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society has reviewed the scientific literature at that time and found that even during the 1970s the prevailing scientific concern was over warming.^[15] The common misperception that cooling was the main concern during the 1970s arose from a few studies that were sensationalized in the popular press, such as a short nine-paragraph article that appeared in Newsweek in 1975.^[16] (Newsweek eventually apologized for having misrepresented the state of the science in the 1970s.)^[17] The author of that article has repudiated the idea that it should be used to deny global warming.^[18]

Q14: Doesn't water vapour cause 98% of the greenhouse effect?

A14: Water vapour is indeed a major greenhouse gas, contributing about 36% to 70% (not 98%) of the total greenhouse effect. But water vapour has a very short atmospheric lifetime (about 10 days), compared with decades to centuries for greenhouse gases like CO₂ or nitrous oxide. As a result it is very nearly in a dynamic equilibrium in the atmosphere, which globally maintains a nearly constant relative humidity. In simpler terms, any excess water vapour is removed by rainfall, and any deficit of water vapour is replenished by evaporation from the Earth's surface, which literally has oceans of water. Thus water vapour cannot act as a driver of climate change.

Rising temperatures caused by the long-lived greenhouse gases will however allow the atmosphere to hold more vapour. This will lead to an increase in the absolute amount of water vapour in the atmosphere. Since water vapour is itself a greenhouse gas, this is an example of a positive feedback. Thus, whereas water vapour is not a driver of climate change, it amplifies existing trends.

Q15: Is the fact that other solar system bodies are warming evidence for a common cause (i.e. the sun)?

A15: While some solar system bodies show evidence of local or global climate change, there is no evidence for a common cause of warming.

A 2007 National Geographic article described the views of Khabibullo Abdusamatov, who claims that the sun is responsible for global warming on both Earth and Mars.^[19] Abdussamatov's views have no support in the scientific community, as the second page of the National Geographic article makes clear: "'His views are completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion,' said Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University. [...] Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, added that 'the idea just isn't supported by the theory or by the observations.'"^[20]
There is no reliable source claiming that Jupiter is warming. However, observations of the Red Spot Jr. storm suggest Jupiter could be in a period of global climate change.^[21]^[22] This is hypothesized to be part of an approximately 70 year global climate cycle, characterized by the relatively rapid forming and subsequent slow erosion and merging of cyclonic and anticyclonic vortices that help transfer heat between Jupiter's poles and equator. The cycle works like this: As the vortices erode, heat exchange is reduced; this makes the poles cool down and the equatorial region heat up; the resulting temperature difference destabilizes the atmosphere, leading to the creation of new vortices.^[23]^[24]
Pluto has an extremely elliptical orbit with a period of about 248 years. Data are sparse, but two data points from 1988 and 2002 indirectly suggest that Pluto warmed between those two dates.^[25] Pluto's temperature is heavily influenced by its elliptical orbit – it was closest to the sun in 1989 and has slowly receded since. Because of thermal inertia, it is expected to warm for a while after it passes perihelion (similar to how a sunny day's warmest temperatures happen during the afternoon instead of right at noon). No other mechanism has so far been seriously suggested. Here is a reasonable summary, and this paper discusses how the thermal inertia is provided by sublimation and evaporation of parts of Pluto's atmosphere. A more popular account is here and in Wikipedia's own article.

Q16: Do scientists support climate change just to get more money?

A16: No,

Scientists participate in international organizations like the IPCC as part of their normal academic duties. They do not receive any extra compensation beyond possibly for direct expenses.
Scientific grants do not usually award any money to a scientist personally, only towards the cost of his or her scientific work.
There is not a shortage of useful things that scientists could study if they were not studying global warming.
- Understanding our climate system better brings benefits independent of global warming. For instance, more accurate weather predictions save a lot of money (on the order of billions of dollars a year), and everyone from insurance agents to farmers wants climate data.^[26]^[27] Scientists could get paid to study climate even if global warming did not exist.

Q17: Doesn't the climate vary even without human activity?

A17: It does, but the fact that natural variation occurs does not mean that human-induced change cannot also occur. Climate scientists have extensively studied natural causes of climate change (such as orbital changes, volcanism, and solar variation) and have ruled them out as an explanation for the current temperature increase. Human activity is the cause at the 95 to 99 percent confidence level (see the IPCC Fifth Assessment Report for details). The high level of certainty in this is important to keep in mind to spot mention of natural variation functioning as a distraction.

Q18: Should we include the view that climate change will lead to planetary doom or catastrophe?

A18: This page is about the science of climate change. It doesn't talk about planetary doom or catastrophe. For a technical explanation, see catastrophic climate change, and for paleoclimatic examples see PETM and great dying.

Q19: Is an increase in global temperature of, say, 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) important?

A19: Though it may not sound like much, a global temperature rise of 3 degrees Celsius (5.4 degrees Fahrenheit) is huge in climate terms. For example, the sea level rise it would produce would flood coastal cities around the world, which include most large cities.

Earth's climate has varied significantly over geological ages. The question of an "optimal temperature" makes no sense without a clear optimality criterion. Over geological time spans, ecosystems adapt to climate variations. But global climate variations during the development of human civilization (i.e. the past 12,000 years) have been remarkably small. Human civilization is highly adapted to the current stable climate. Agricultural production depends on the proper combination of soil, climate, methods, and seeds. Most large cities are located on the coast, and any significant change in sea level would strongly affect them. Migration of humans and ecosystems is limited by political borders and existing land use. In short, the main problem is not the higher absolute temperature but the massive and unprecedentedly fast change in climate and the related effects on human societies. The IPCC AR6 WG2 report has a detailed discussion of the effects of rapid climate change.

Q20: Why are certain proposals to change the article discarded, deleted, or ignored? Who is/was Scibaby?

A20: Scibaby is/was a long term abusive sock-master (or coordinated group of sock masters) who has created 1,027 confirmed sock puppets, another 167 suspected socks, and probably many untagged or unrecognized ones. This page lists some recent creations. His modus operandi has changed over time, but includes proposing reasonably worded additions on the talk page that only on close examination turn out to be irrelevant, misinterpreted, or give undue weight to certain aspects. Scibaby is banned, and Scibaby socks are blocked as soon as they are identified. Some editors silently revert his additions, per WP:DENY, while others still assume good faith even for likely socks and engage them.

Q21: What about this really interesting recent peer-reviewed paper I read or read about, that says...?

A21: There are hundreds of peer-reviewed papers published every month in respected scientific journals such as Geophysical Research Letters, the Journal of Climate, and others. We can't include all of them, but the article does include references to individual papers where there is consensus that they best represent the state of the relevant science. This is in accordance with the "due weight" principle (WP:WEIGHT) of the Neutral point of view policy and the "Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information" principle (WP:IINFO) of the What Wikipedia is not policy.

Q22: Why does the article define "climate change" as a recent phenomenon? Hasn't the planet warmed and cooled before?

A22: Yes, the planet has warmed and cooled before. However, the term "climate change" without further qualification is widely understood to refer to the recent episode and often explicitly connected with the greenhouse effect. Per WP:COMMONNAME, we use the term in this most common meaning. The article Climate variability and change deals with the more general concept.

Q23: Did the CERN CLOUD experiment prove that climate change is caused not by human activity but by cosmic rays?

A23: No. For cosmic rays to be causing global warming, all of the following would have to be true, whereas only the italicized one was tested in the 2011 experiment:^[28]

Solar magnetic field must be getting stronger
The number of cosmic rays reaching Earth must be dropping
Cosmic rays must successfully seed clouds, which requires:

Cosmic rays must trigger aerosol (liquid droplet) formation,
These newly-formed aerosols must grow sufficiently through condensation to form cloud-condensation nuclei (CCN),
The CCN must lead to increased cloud formation, and
Cloud cover on Earth must be declining.

Perhaps the study's lead author, Jasper Kirkby, put it best: "...it [the experiment] actually says nothing about a possible cosmic-ray effect on clouds and climate, but it's a very important first step."^[29]

Q24: I read that something can't fix climate change. Is this true?

A24: Yes, this is true for all plausible single things including: "electric cars", "planting trees", "low-carbon technology", "renewable energy", "Australia", "capitalism", "the doom & gloom approach", "a Ph.D. in thermodynamics". Note that it is problematic to use the word "fix" regarding climate change, as returning the climate to its pre-industrial state currently appears to be feasible only over a timeframe of thousands of years. Current efforts are instead aimed at mitigating (meaning limiting) climate change. Mitigation is strived for through the combination of many different things. See Climate change mitigation for details.

References

^ ^a ^b Powell, James (20 November 2019). "Scientists Reach 100% Consensus on Anthropogenic Global Warming". Bulletin of Science, Technology & Society. 37 (4): 183–184. doi:10.1177/0270467619886266. S2CID 213454806. Retrieved 15 November 2020.
^ ^a ^b "Commission for Climatology Frequently Asked Questions". World Meteorological Organization. Archived from the original on 5 May 2020. Retrieved 14 July 2020.
^ Harris, Tom. "Scientists who work in the fields liberal arts graduate Al Gore wanders through contradict his theories about man-induced climate change". National Post. Archived from the original on 30 August 2011. Retrieved 11 January 2009 – via Solid Waste & Recycling. {{cite web}}: |archive-date= / |archive-url= timestamp mismatch; 4 February 2012 suggested (help)
^ Arriola, Benj. "5 Good Arguments Why GlobalWarming is NOT due to Man-made Carbon Dioxide". Global Warming Awareness Blog. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Ahlbeck, Jarl. "Increase of the Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide Concentration due to Ocean Warming". Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Kirby, Simon (11 April 2007). "Top scientist debunks global warming". Herald Sun. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ Brahic, Catherine (16 May 2007). "Climate myths: Human CO2 emissions are too tiny to matter". New Scientist. Retrieved 11 January 2009.
^ "More Notes on Global Warming". Physics Today. May 2005. Retrieved 10 September 2007.
^ Battle, M.; et al. (2000). "Global Carbon Sinks and Their Variability Inferred from Atmospheric O2 and d13C". Science. 287 (5462): 2467–2470. doi:10.1126/science.287.5462.2467.
^ The Royal Society (2005). "Ocean acidification due to increasing atmospheric carbon dioxide". Retrieved 9 May 2012.
^ "Met Office: Climate averages". Met Office. Archived from the original on 24 February 2009. Retrieved 23 January 2009.
^ Climate Central (18 January 2017). "2016 Was the Hottest Year on Record". Climate Central. Retrieved 1 February 2017.
^ The Saga of Erik the Red, 1880, English translation by J. Sephton, from the original Eiríks saga rauða.
^ "Cold Hard Facts". Tamino. 8 January 2009. Retrieved 21 January 2009.^{[dead link]}
^ Peterson, T. C.; et al. (2008). "The Myth of the 1970s Global Cooling Scientific Consensus". Bulletin of the American Meteorological Society. 89 (9): 1325. Bibcode:2008BAMS...89.1325P. doi:10.1175/2008BAMS2370.1.
^ Gwynne, Peter (28 April 1975). "The Cooling World". Newsweek. p. 64.
^ Verger, Rob (23 May 2014). "Newsweek Rewind: Debunking Global Cooling". Newsweek.
^ Gwynne, Peter (21 May 2014). "My 1975 'Cooling World' Story Doesn't Make Today's Climate Scientists Wrong". insidescience.org.
^ Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.
^ Ravilious, Kate (28 February 2007). "Mars Melt Hints at Solar, Not Human, Cause for Warming, Scientist Says (page 2)". National Geographic News. Archived from the original on 2 March 2007. Retrieved 6 March 2008.
^ Marcus, Philip; Shetty, Sushil; Asay-Davis, Xylar (November 2006). Velocities and Temperatures of Jupiter's Great Red Spot and the New Red Oval and Implications for Global Climate Change. American Physical Society. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Goudarzi, Sara (4 May 2006). "New Storm on Jupiter Hints at Climate Change". Space.com. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Philip, Marcus S. (22 April 2004). "Prediction of a global climate change on Jupiter" (PDF). Nature. 428 (6985): 828–831. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Yang, Sarah (21 April 2004). "Researcher predicts global climate change on Jupiter as giant planet's spots disappear". University of California, Berkeley. Retrieved 9 May 2007.
^ Elliot, J. L.; et al. (10 July 2003). "The recent expansion of Pluto's atmosphere". Nature (424): 165–168. doi:10.1038/nature01762.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
^ Foerster, Jim. "What's The Difference Between Private Weather Companies And The National Weather Service?". Forbes.
^ Eilts, Mike (27 November 2018). "The Role of Weather—and Weather Forecasting—in Agriculture". DTN.
^ "What do the CERN experiments tell us about global warming?". Skeptical Science. 2 September 2011.
^ Brumfiel, Geoff (23 August 2011). "Cloud Formation May Be Linked to Cosmic Rays". Scientific American.

Archives

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/Terminology section /General discussion

This page has archives. Sections older than 21 days may be automatically archived by when more than 4 sections are present.

I would love to see the evidence, proof, studies, for the exact percentages of various causes, thanks.

It would be great to have some links to the actual experimental studies that show the fingerprinting and proof of causes and the percentages.

Yes, I agree that air pollution from human activity is a major problem. I just want to know what percentage is this cause. Thanks. Ideally everyone would get on board with cleaning up our air quality. Anyone can see the smog over a major city.

Exact measured percentages of warming, with margins of error, from each possible cause, is precisely known? For example, the exact measured percentage of warming from natural solar events is measured? How? What is the exact measured cause by humans? 80% or more? The margin of error? How many studies done? Does anyone know what studies show the measurements that prove the exact percentages for each cause? I would love to see them. Thanks.

What are the other causes, if any? Solar? What percentage confirmed?

Just the facts please. Please, no politics or personal attacks. Thanks.

Data and evidence is all that truly matters, along with excellent repeated experiments. Joseph Prymak (talk) 07:17, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is what the source references are for. In particular, see the IPCC reports, which are readily available on-line, come with two levels of summarization, and are better written than we can do here. Along with great images. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:11, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Johnson, I will look around their website to see. Joseph Prymak (talk) 16:18, 1 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also as I noted on in reply to the same question on my talk page "For what its worth your question on adding up percentages seems based on a false premise in that inevitably Global Warming is not a sum of effects but rather the small difference between two much larger numbers; a large number of positive and a large number of negative effects all of which are estimated from data with relevant error bars in the usual scientific manner. It is therefore easy for the disingenuous to blame other effects than human activity (eg a bigger single contribution to the greenhouse effect comes from water vapour or whatever) since there are larger items on the "positives" side than human activity. However I am sure you are numerate enough to cope with that concept, and with the idea that there is a reason why the human contribution to one side of an equation otherwise in balance has a particular significance. --BozMo talk 21:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Important discussion on use of quotations when citing sources is now underway

FYI, Wikipedia_talk:Citing_sources#Use_of_quote_parameter_in_footnote_-_a_proposal_to_provide_better_guidance. Since this article uses lots of quotes, editors may wish to chime in. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:35, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I would point out: that discussion is about the use of quotations, not necessarily of the citation/cite templates' "|quote=" parameter. ~~The latter is rather useless, and it is just as well – possibly even better – to have a quotation follow (or precede) the template rather than be incorporated within it.~~ ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:59, 4 January 2012 (UTC) (Struck, as based on a misunderstanding. 01:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC))[reply]

Excepting of course that you lose 2 things: metadata and automatic rendering according to community standards (which i grant you isn't much of an issue at the moment). So, No... it is certainly not "usefull" and not "even better" not to use the |quote parameter. You need to look at a bigger picture than just rendering on this particular article to actually appreciate what the templates do. Citation templates are not just nice easy ways to render a text. --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 14:10, 5 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly agree that citation templates "not just nice easy ways to render ... text" (though I am appreciative that I can let a template handle all the arcane details of rendering citation text). But... On one hand, I have never seen how a quotation could sensibly be any kind of metadata for a citation. On the other hand, are you thinking in terms of the citation being the metadata that identifies the quotation? ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Metadata in this context is data that can be automagically gathered by tools. A quote is such metadata, when you put it in the citation template, it can be automagically identified as a quote - and while this is probably not very useful for citation quotes, it is very useful for the rest of citation parameters. For instance given a question: "How many times are papers by Richard Alley quoted on climate change pages" can be answered by using a bot that collects information from the citation templates. (basically this goes for every known location containing particular information. This ability goes away once the data is outside known locations (as with non-citation template based citations). --Kim D. Petersen (talk) 00:31, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I know what metadata is. I was questioning which is the metadata here. I think you are saying that the citation is the metadata that describes the quotation. Curiously, I had viewed it inversely. Well, I see your point. I think there are some issues with |quote=, but perhaps better an imperfect tool than none at all. So I don't mind allowing that |quote= is not entirely useless. Thank you for pointing that out. ~ J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 01:41, 6 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Climate change

I've restored this category to the article. Although Category:Global warming is also a subcategory of Category:Climate change, I think removing this particular article from the top level cat is probably unwise. Global warming is a very big part of the topic and should be shown at top level rather than diffused.

What does Wikipedia:Categorization guideline (WP:CAT) suggest? The following:

an article should not be excluded from any set category on the grounds that its eponymous category is made a "subcategory" of that category.

The bolding is in the original. --TS 10:51, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That section of the guideline is largely ignored. In the interests of ease of navigation I removed it to incrementally reduce the clutter in Category:Climate change. Category:Climate change can be easily reached by a reader with one extra click. See also Category talk:Climate change#Reorganised. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 11:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Avoiding clutter is fine. If nobody else has any issues I don't object. --TS 23:56, 13 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Runaway Greenhouse: implications for future climate change, geoengineering and planetary atmospheres

http://arxiv.org/abs/1201.1593

"The Runaway Greenhouse: implications for future climate change, geoengineering and planetary atmospheres

Colin Goldblatt, Andrew J. Watson

(Submitted on 8 Jan 2012)

The ultimate climate emergency is a "runaway greenhouse": a hot and water vapour rich atmosphere limits the emission of thermal radiation to space, causing runaway warming. Warming ceases only once the surface reaches ~1400K and emits radiation in the near-infrared, where water is not a good greenhouse gas. This would evaporate the entire ocean and exterminate all planetary life. Venus experienced a runaway greenhouse in the past, and we expect that Earth will in around 2 billion years as solar luminosity increases. But could we bring on such a catastrophe prematurely, by our current climate-altering activities? Here we review what is known about the runaway greenhouse to answer this question, describing the various limits on outgoing radiation and how climate will evolve between these. The good news is that almost all lines of evidence lead us to believe that is unlikely to be possible, even in principle, to trigger full a runaway greenhouse by addition of non-condensible greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. However, our understanding of the dynamics, thermodynamics, radiative transfer and cloud physics of hot and steamy atmospheres is weak. We cannot therefore completely rule out the possibility that human actions might cause a transition, if not to full runaway, then at least to a much warmer climate state than the present one. High climate sensitivity might provide a warning. If we, or more likely our remote descendants, are threatened with a runaway greenhouse then geoengineering to reflect sunlight might be life's only hope. ...[2 sentences cut to meet arXiv char limit]... The runaway greenhouse also remains relevant in planetary sciences and astrobiology: as extrasolar planets smaller and nearer to their stars are detected, some will be in a runaway greenhouse state."

Count Iblis (talk) 15:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What is it that you wish done with this? --OuroborosCobra (talk) 15:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

almost all lines of evidence lead us to believe that is unlikely to be possible, even in principle, to trigger full a runaway greenhouse by addition of noncondensible greenhouse gases such as carbon dioxide to the atmosphere suggests that it is not of immeadiate relevance... William M. Connolley (talk) 16:30, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That statement with a citation to the article (to appear in Phil. Trans. Roy. Soc. Lond. A) could be included here. Count Iblis (talk) 22:26, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why? Goldblatt and Watson seem to be discussing the unlikelihood of a runaway greenhouse effect where surface temperatures reach 1400K (that's more than 2000 Fahrenheit). This Wikipedia article on "global warming" has nothing to do with such a runaway greenhouse effect and does not discuss it. Therefore, such a statement, cited to that journal article, has no bearing or relevance to this article. Is there something more that is in the article content than you are showing us in this abstract? If not, I also suggest you read FAQ 21. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 23:53, 10 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It is important to include the most rigorous analysis about the limits on global warming due to human activities. The reason why this article does not discuss runaway greenhouse effect is because it is believed to be irrelevant, but that is in itself a non-trivial fact about global warming that has to be mentioned in this article. Count Iblis (talk) 01:30, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The limits are clearly established, including cited numerical values. A runaway greenhouse effect is a different phenomena from global warming. It is outside the established limits of global warming within this article. --OuroborosCobra (talk) 03:04, 11 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

File:Solar-cycle-data.png

File:Solar-cycle-data.png, whilst nice, is beginning to show its age - see fig 9 of http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/mailings/2012/20120119_Temperature.pdf for example William M. Connolley (talk) 11:58, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, this clearly shows the same pattern but now having turned the corner at the bottom of the cycle. So someone here has to create a new graph from the data, right? We cannot just pinch that one... --BozMo talk 13:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If I understand the mumbojumbo right, the license for the one we have says anyone is free to tweak it. No need to reinvent the wheel, just need to update it. Alas, I'm not a graphics guy. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 13:29, 20 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

How come the red line on the temperature chart stopped going up?

This WP:SOAP thread lacks specific suggestions for improving the article such as draft proposed text. See WP:TALK; Click show to read anyway

The article should explain why the red line representing the 5-year average global temperature has stopped rising. Does this mean the Kyoto Protocol worked? 76.173.97.27 (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why stop with explaining that minor downturn in the average, should we perhaps try to explain every single wrinkle on the graph? Well actually that wouldn't make any sense because the overall trend still appears to be upwards, albeit affected by a whole series of short term variations due to things like El Niño-Southern Oscillation - if it's still turning down in five years time, then it will certainly be worthy of comment. Mikenorton (talk) 20:59, 21 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

76.173.97.27 .. As everyone knows it stopped going up for the same reason it started going up in the first place ... natural variation. But the problem is that if they ever admit it isn't warming, then that would be admitting that the whole article on "global warming" is a complete load of baloney. So, almost by definition, there can't be any reference to the fact it isn't warming in this article ... because as soon as they do, there will be plenty of people ready to request for deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.237.60 (talk) 11:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Disliking recent changes

Beginning of thread

I don't like [1]. "since 1850" is somewhere between wrong and too specific. The attribution to the "national science academies" looks wrong; thats IPCC-ery. I don't know what "by natural geological variability" is supposed to mean; it isn't in the reference added William M. Connolley (talk) 11:25, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

William Conolley you are not making any sense! Please could you explain in more detail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.237.60 (talk) 11:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was pretty clear. The starting point of recent global warming can't be tied so precisely. The use of a specific year implies that that the scientific community agrees that 1850 is the starting point. If the starting point is roughly correct, then something like "mid-19th century" would be better.--SPhilbrick (Talk) 16:20, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Breakout discussion of time in lead first paragraph

I'd like someone to add some sort of date container here. 1850 is referred to on several pages linked to in the intro, including average temperature and retreat of glaciers, so clearly this article is about some phenomenon more recent than, for instance, the 16th century. That should be made clear. 19th century per suggestion above? Scott Illini (talk) 19:48, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If I had to guess, I'd say the motivation here is to beat off claims that today's warming is just a continuation of warming since the last ice age. Is that why we are talking about this? The time frame is implied by the history of burning fossil fuels. Without being more explicit, I can see how an intentionally tortured reading could suggest ambiguity. But I fail to see how writing to beat off intentionally tortured readings makes the article more accessible to the truly open minded reader. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:21, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to be encyclopedic. The opening sentence should define the topic. "Global warming' refers to the rising average temperature of Earth's atmosphere and oceans and its projected continuation" does not define the topic. This article does not refer to all warming in all of history. Nor has the Earth's temperature always been rising. Scott Illini (talk) 22:57, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That sentence is in present tense: "the rising average temperature", i.e. the currently rising, the presently rising (and its projected continuation). You might as well be worrying everyone about the preceding clause - "refers"? Wikipedia articles can change! Do we mean that this version of the article refers to that? Or some past version? Shouldn't we say, "Since 2003, this article has referred to..." I think that's what is meant by a tortured reading. --Nigelj (talk) 23:18, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the original text is fine. Besides being in present tense, the warming is tied to fossil fuel burning. For those interested in more detail there is an entire section on the temperature record. Does that subsection come up short, in your opinion? Also, there are a lot of other details we could add to the first sentence.... but then that would be a really long sentence. I fail to see how lack of a start date in the lead's first sentence translates into a failure to define the article. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 23:27, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For what definition of "the present"? This year? This decade? This century? I think we all understand that the answer is "in recent centuries" but that needs to be stated. These articles are supposed to work for naive readers, children, etc. The current description makes it sound like Earth's temperature has forever been monotonically increasing like a cake in an oven. The later references to "more than 90 percent certain most" mean the article is not strictly tied to fossil fuel burning, and regardless, the first sentence of a Wikipedia article always stands on its own, like "The Earth is the third planet from the sun." Scott Illini (talk) 23:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please point (link or specific paragraph number) to whatever policy or guideline says the first sentence has to "always stand on its own". I've seen that phrase with respect to the entire lead, but never to the first sentence of the lead. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 01:44, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Convention? I can't find an article that violates it, though if you can that might be a helpful example. But that was my second point. What about my first point? Shouldn't it be made clear whether this article is about 100, 200, 300, 500, 1000, or 10k years? Deforestation began with agriculture, but I don't think this article is meant to refer to warming during all human history since agriculture. Scott Illini (talk) 03:33, 25 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please forget the lead and look at the rest of the article. What time period do you think the rest of the article talks about (if any)? When answering this question, in particular, please see the temp record subsection. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 08:08, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The section you refer to discusses warming only after 1850. The lead should reflect that. I should not need to read the entire article to figure out what period of history the article refers to. If you do not like "in recent centuries" (19th, 20th, 21st), please propose something else. Scott Illini (talk) 19:01, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"In recent centuries" is ambiguous. Is the 16th or 17th century "recent"? Reasonable minds could differ. The sources do not all all use the same turn of phrase for when "global warming" commenced, which makes it hard for us to pick one turn of phrase over another. Even if there was an unambiguous unanimity among the sources for this temporal detail, is it something that must be in the lead? You say you are trying to be encyclopedic, and I usually interpret that argument to be synonymous with WP:IJUSTDONTLIKEIT (meaning the argument carries little weight). Getting back to my question, even if there was an unambiguous unanimity among the sources for this temporal detail, is it something that must be in the lead? I assume you agree that it is impossible to put every detail in the lead. IMO, the most important temporal details for the lead are the ones that are there. It is warming now, roughly coincident with increased use of fossil fuels, and the rate of warming has been increasing in recent decades. Further temporal details are available in the main body of the article... In other words, the lead is currently doing just what it is supposed to do, and we lack clear unanimity among the sources for which turn of phrase to use in the lead, assuming we wanted to use any. And you have yet to persuade me at least that it is needed in the lead at all. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, then we'll go your way. "the currently rising average temperature"? This will reduce the ambiguity to a naive reader. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scott Illini (talk • contribs) 19:56, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Except "currently rising" is just as redundant as "currently happening right now this very moment in the present". NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:06, 27 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Currently" is a one word addition. You claim that it is redundant. I claim that it reduces ambiguity, making more clear that the article does not refer, for instance, to a phenomenon taking place over millennia. I find ambiguity to be a far more meaningful issue than one word of possible redundancy. You seem to object to any attempt to improve the first sentence of this article. I'm going to go ahead and make this edit, and I would ask that you allow some other editor to step in if they find it truly redundant. Scott Illini (talk) 07:26, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please resist the urge to allege I am claiming ownership. Suggest a genuine improvement and I will be thrilled. I reverted your redundant addition of the word "currently" because it was non-responsive to the issue you previously said is the main problem you have with the sentence, which was, if I understood you correctly, that the 1st sentence of the lead was not - all by itself - telling readers when the warming covered in this article started. Note the tense of that last word "started". Past tense. So according to your prior remarks we needed to add some reference to a past event (i.e., the start of the warming) to the lead's first sentence. I'm unpersuaded that this is true, just pointing out that it is what you said was your main concern. The word "currently" is not about that past event. The sentence is already written in the present tense so adding "currently" does not add any temporal detail. For example, if you will pardon my momentary redundancy, let's talk about the fact that the earth is currently orbiting the sun. Does that mean the orbit started in 1850? The word adds no temporal detail to a sentence written in the present tense. Not right now. Not currently. I reverted because it's redundant and does not address your main issue. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 09:49, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think Scott has a valid point. Many articles have the need for a scope statement, whenever the scope is not obvious. This lede starts with the word “current” but that term can mean many different things in different contexts. The next sentence refers to the last 100 years, possibly imply that is the scope. The main article has several different dates, not of which are explicitly stated as starting points but each of which implicitly hints at the starting point: 1906, 1900, and 1850. It is not unreasonable to expect the term “current” to be defined more carefully, especially given the fact that even a careful reader can find at least three alternatives. Yes, I know that the starting point is not a specific year, but surely the experts has reached a conclusion about an appropriate starting point? And if not, that deserves mention as well.--SPhilbrick (Talk) 22:43, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I never said he did not have a valid point (about start date), only that the solutions he suggested to refine the temporal details would not improve the article, IMO. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Breakout discussion of 'projected continuation'

Which of these is better grammar? "the current trend's projected continuation" or "the rising average temperature's projected continuation"? Reverting. Scott Illini (talk) 19:05, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neither. In the first, addition of the word "current", in the context of the sentence in question, is redundant. In the second, "projected continuation" refers to "temperature" which creates an absurdity. I mean, does the physical trait known as "temperature" ever cease? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 19:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The opening sentence says, "Global warming refers to the rising average temperature of Earth's atmosphere and oceans and its projected continuation." Neither of the two phrases introduced by Scott Illini (talk · contribs) above are relevant to the lede, which was recently edited on the basis of this discussion. 'Its projected continuation' clearly refers back to 'the rising average temperature'. No problem, no absurdity, nothing to fix. --Nigelj (talk) 20:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

edit conflict

Consensus here is that "the rising average temperature's projected continuation" is an absurdity. As is "Global warming refers to... its projected continuation". Revert. Scott Illini (talk) 20:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well I just reverted Scott's deletion of "and its projected continuation". Upon reflection, I wonder if a hyper grammatical nerd could take issue with the current phrasing? In the following example, does the pronoun "her" refer to the noun "family" in the subject of the sentence, or to the proper noun "Mary" in the first part of the predicate?

In this silly example, 'the family' refers to the red-headed Mary and her children....

I think the answer is that "her" relates to Mary, not "family". Grammatically speaking, the pronoun "her" does not refer to the adjective "red-headed" whatsoever. Looking at our analogous sentence, does the pronoun "its" refer to "global warming" in the sentence subject, or to the noun "temperature" in the sentence predicate, or maybe to "average temperature" (if you view the noun as an open compound word)?) IMO, its "temperature" or "average temperature". There is no reason to think that the pronoun "its" relates in any way to the adjective "rising". And so - lo and behold - I finally agree with Scott about something in this thread. The existing language communicates just fine, I think. But for the hyper grammar nerd, it does appear to be sloppy phrasing. What is the projected continuation of the "average temperature"? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 20:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the phrase from 500 versions ago

"Global warming is the current rise in the average temperature of Earth's oceans and atmosphere and its projected continuation."

We departed from that phrasing in this edit, and it underwent various efforts at wordsmithing since then. I'm not sure the odyssey was an improvement, and wonder if the phrasing I quoted should be restored? It appears it might resolve this entire thread in all its parts. Pronoun "its" would refer to noun "rise". And it talks about current rise.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:04, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

High five for digging that up. I think we are done. Thanks! Scott Illini (talk) 21:34, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It would be more correct to say that you like it, and then wait for others to share their opinions. If you and I engage again in the future, I would ask that you be slower to leap to "consensus" conclusions. If this sticks, then I will thank you for calling out a grammar problem. But I have an open mind and could change my mind with others input, in any, over the next few days. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Breakout discussion of "and NOT natural causes"

I have now gone with the more general "natural causes". Relevant sentence in reference is "No model that has used natural forcing only has reproduced the observed global mean warming trend or the continental mean warming trends in all individual continents (except Antarctica) over the second half of the 20th century." Scott Illini (talk) 19:54, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think the "and not by natural causes" is largely pointless. If it is by people, it can't be natural. I still don't think the date is needed William M. Connolley (talk) 21:31, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Being redundant, I deleted this phrase. See WP:COPYEDIT discussion of redundant phrases.NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:13, 24 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No global warming for 15 years

This article needs to be updated to reflect the fact there has been no warming for the last 15 years:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2093264/Forget-global-warming--Cycle-25-need-worry-NASA-scientists-right-Thames-freezing-again.html

GoCacheGo (talk) 21:49, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Daily Mail has a rather tenuous relationship with fact, got a reliable source? Hint: try this WMO press release, rather neatly graphically illustrated in Skep Sci. . dave souza, talk 22:01, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically, does anyone have the citation for the unidentified "paper" described in the article? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 22:20, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If it's the one I think you're asking about, Pa reports pre-pub interviews, due to appear in the Journal of Geophysical Research, Atmospheres, so all a bit premature. . . dave souza, talk 22:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Five agencies report average global temperature. See them graphed at http://climaterealists.com/index.php?tid=145&linkbox=true. Links are provided so they can be verified.Dan Pangburn (talk) 22:57, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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