Talk:Holodomor

Famine and Politics

General : Isn't it a little odd that when ever a famine or similar natural disaster has taken place in a socialist country the leadership and political system is automatically blamed? Countless other catastrophes have befallen countries that are allied with capitalist and imperialist powers, and in these cases it's simply a random tragedy, never to do with politics. Looks like the cold War is still being fought, doesn't it? See "Famine, Fraud and Fascism", by D. Tottle for a refutation of this Holomodor lie.

Specific: It should also be pointed out that chief proponents of the "Holomodor" thesis include ultra-right Ukrainian nationalists, many of whom collaborated with the Nazi invasion of the USSR during the Second world War; and most notably of all, Joseph Goebbels, the propagandist of the Third Reich, who saw a great opportunity in the events in the Ukraine in the early 1930s. Ably assisted by the Hearst press, which dutifully spread Goebbels' propaganda for him in the West, the Nazis succeeded in distorting, exaggerating and simply inventing the myth that has now become known as the "Holomodor" in order to justify their long-held ambition to expand eastward and attack the Soviet Union. The "Holomodor" myth is something which continues today to be a weapon in the armory of fascists, neo-Nazis and anti-communists of all types in the fight against progressive politics and socialism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.171.37.99 (talk) 12:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

1. Wikipedia has a nasty policy which says we use what is written in reliable sources. In the case of Holodomor, the sources pretty uniformly show government actions as being directly involved in the euphemistic "excess deaths." Some of the sources even say that removing fdood from people may cause death. 2. The Godwin Rule deals with your attempt to make those sources into Goebbbels. 3. The book you cite was not reviewed in mainstream press - it is not found in any NYT cite for example. 4. [1] the book appears to have been published by the Communist Party of Canada. ("Progress Publishers" was specifically owned and operated by that party) It does not pass WP:RS. By a thousand km. Collect (talk) 12:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Collect is correct. To emphasise: Tottle's work was not positively reviewed in the relevant academic journals, he's neither a historian, nor esteemed as a historian by the discipline. Progress Publishers may be a useful press when it comes to "what was a Canadian communist analysis," or "reprints of Bolshevik and occasionally Marxist literature," but this is a work purporting to be a historical work. And it was withdrawn from publication soon after issue as its research was found to be grossly and systematically out of date. There are other, superior, scholarly analyses of the social contestation of memory and the political construction of national and political historical narratives around these mass deaths by famine. We must use those instead of discredited histories by trade unionists that didn't receive review in appropriate journals. Fifelfoo (talk) 21:38, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Looks like Collect and Fifelfoo use the same brain. As to the D. Tottle's book, using just the most primitive Google book search [2] an interested reader can find many opinions supporting or denying D. Tottle. A lot of phrases saying nothing, calling upon Wikipeda's policy (especially when it is knownt that Wikipedia is disqualified as credible source by all American and European universities and other academic institutions), then mentioning NYT ad mainstream press, etc, etc, etc. Now a 'nugget': "And it was withdrawn from publication soon after issue as its research was found to be grossly and systematically out of date." - says who?--71.178.106.120 (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Reflections in culture

It should have been a chapter about reflections on Holodomor in Culture, I mean literature, music, cinema, fine art. There are several outstanding Ukrainian novels concerning Holodomor as well as feature films and documentaries. Felixum8888 (talk) 04:39, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

If you have the information, you may compose such a section in your userspace and present it to an administrator so they may add it. Right now, the page is fully-protected, so you won't be able to add it at the moment. ~~ Lothar von Richthofen (talk)

Please add link to the article

To the admins. Please add this link to the 1933 article by professor Markoff to the further reading or external links section. --DonaldDuck (talk) 10:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

File:Child affected by malnutrition.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Edit request on 16 January 2012

The first public monument to the Holodomor was erected and dedicated outside City Hall in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada in 1983 to mark the 50th anniversary of the famine-genocide.

Correction, the Holodomor Monument is located outside of the Alberta Provincial Legislative Building, Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.68.132.79 (talk) 03:40, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

124.180.168.57 (talk) 07:22, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

 Not done: You haven't detailed what changes need to be made. Also please note that the dispute is currently under mediation, so controversial changes will need to be discussed. Cheers. Steven Zhang ^{Join the DR army!} 07:45, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

"the legal definition of genocide"

I suggest the wording "the legal definition of genocide" is changed to "the definition of genocide in the UN Genocide Convention". The UN is an organisation founded by a minority of the world's countries and does not have a monopoly on defining genocide, and its convention is only ratified by 140 states, i.e. by no means all countries in the world (not even all of their own members). Such as a thing as "the legal definition of genocide" does not exist; multiple legal definitions of genocide exist. In a number of countries, Soviet crimes not covered by that 1940s convention are by law determined to be genocide. It should be noted that the Soviet Union, i.e. a politically extreme totalitarian regime responsible for genocide, had a role in formulating this document from the 1940s (Stalin era), itself a fact that discredits the convention, as it was obviously tailored to exclude Soviet genocides. The 1940s definition is contradicted by definitions of genocide used by modern democratic governments (especially in countries where Soviet genocides took place) and by modern scholars, and not considered authoritative today. Tataral (talk) 19:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 January 2012 Image:HolodomorEdmonton.jpg

please remove the redlinked Image:HolodomorEdmonton.jpg from this article since the image has been deleted for an incorrect licence. Meters (talk) 20:32, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done--Jac16888 ^Talk 20:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Discussion on WP:MCQ has concluded image licence is OK. File has been restored. Please undo the edit on holodomor. Meters (talk) 17:23, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

 Done again. (ps, if you put a : in front of the file/image part in the link, like so [[:Image:HolodomorEdmonton.jpg]], it just links to it rather than posting the image) --Jac16888 ^Talk 17:27, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Scholarship of Ludo Martens

Author Ludo Martens writes in his book ANOTHER LOOK AT STALIN that the Ukrainian genocide as a news story began in the Nazi presses in Germany before Hearst picked it up in the US press. Martens argues a combination of re-drawn national boundaries of the newly-formed Ukrainian SSR, legalized abortion, and lower birth rates in general resulted in the gaps of population over the period. Furthermore, Martens citations and footnotes tracing the route of the Ukrainian famine story back to false rumors, word-of-mouth, and an anti-Communist Fascist Ukrainian movement that would eventually collaborate with the Third Reich. I am not making this argument, I am just curious about whether some would be interested in seeing it presented to resolve the disputed validity? Martens was not a kook, he was anti-racist and argued these figures in the Ukrainian Nationalist movement were anti-Semites. The issues of anti-Semitism and it's link to anti-Bolshevism as a modern variation of older norms of hate are part of this discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stew312856 (talk • contribs) 03:45, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

There is another book: Stalin: A New History by James R. Harris; Cambridge University Press, Sep 8, 2005 which gives a factual insight into the famine that hit USSR that time.This article is burdened by biased writings of all thise who are dividing this world into us and them, free and oppressed, civilised and villains, etc.--71.178.106.120 (talk) 01:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Legal recognition

Statements like

The joint statement at the United Nations in 2003 has defined the famine as the result of actions and policies of the totalitarian regime that caused the deaths of millions of Ukrainians, Russians, Kazakhs and other nationalities in the USSR.[25]

have nothing with legality, even if heard in the OUN. That "joint statement" is just 24 governmets supported declaration, where Russia is not the one, even listed there.--71.178.106.120 (talk) 01:38, 3 March 2012 (UTC)