Talk:Wilfred Owen

Westminster Abbey

I was in Westminster Abbey recently and I'm pretty sure there's a commemorative headstone for Wilfred Owen in Poet's Corner. Can someone confirm this and add a little blurb to this page? 70.55.228.57 (talk) 13:45, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

• That's correct. There is a stone in Poet's Corner commemorating 16 English poets from WWI that bears a quote by Wilfred Owen "My subject is War and the pity of War. The poetry is in the pity." [1][2] Nicklob (talk) 14:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

wilfred is the most famous poet in his time — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.147.98.239 (talk) 18:18, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Change link to Battle of the Sambre

Going to change the link to the Battle of the Sambre, rather than the canal. Seems more appropriate that way. IxK85 (talk) 15:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Removed Gutenberg link

I removed the following from the Wilfred Owen page:

[http://promo.net/cgi-promo/pg/t9.cgi?entry=1034&full=yes&ftpsite=ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/docs/books/gutenberg/ Owen's collected work at Project Gutenberg]

While this seems to be well-formed, it doesn't display properly, probably due to the http & ftp links in the address. One way around this would be a makeashorterlink.com ref, but that wouldn't necessarily be futureproof. Any better ideas? -- Nairobiny

I changed it - it seems to work better now (at least for me) --Camembert

Yeah, that's the bunny.. thanks! -- Nairobiny

School

I think it is good to hear that Wilfred Owen and Sassoons poetry is being taught and analysed around the UK in schools. A good start for kids. - Erebus555 ↕ TALK

I agree, but I just wish schools would teach it as English literature and not as history.IxK85 (talk) 15:15, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm doing English Lit and we're analysing Wilfred Owen in detail. --79.66.69.234 (talk) 19:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Image

This page could do with a photo of him. There are several to be found on the web, but I have been unable to establish the copyright status of any of them. --BillC 22:03, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

Sassoon

Why was the sentence on his meeting with Sassoon removed? Most biographies of Owen remark on the importance to his work to their meeting while both were recovering in Craiglockhart War Hospital. See here for example BillC 09:42, 6 August 2005 (UTC)--

I don't think it was removed, only moved – in fact, the entire section was moved, but is still there. --MarkSweep 14:29, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

I was thinking of the edit that was made at this diff. As the article now stands, there is no reference to Sassoon prior to suddenly introducing him in the poetry section. --BillC 15:01, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

The references to Sassoon are a bit biased. I'm putting an NPOV on this e03bf085 12:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Having played with it a bit, I think we can remove the NPOV tag now. Would you agree? Mgriffin 14:27, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Good stuff, I removed another weird line about "an inferior poet known as Siegfried Sassoon", seemed to jar with the following paragraph describing Sassoons's influence on Owen. e03bf085 10:15, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

"Owen was believed by many to be one of the finest poets of WWI."

I don't like reverting edits, and I agree with the message that was inserted by the last contributor, but this sentence already exists in a near-identical form in the second sentence of the article. --BillC 21:53, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Suicide speculation

I would get rid of the sentence of his death being a possible suicide, if it isn't being cited. The (citation needed) has been there for weeks.

Moved to here: There is some speculation that his death was in fact a suicide. Specifically, he stood and exposed himself to machine gun fire unnecessarily. --BillC 21:45, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I have heard no speculation Wilfrid Owen commited Suicide. Every biography I have read of him and his letters state that he wanted to, and at times thought he would, survive the war.

My understanding was that he was shot cheering his men on across a bridge. To say he comitted suicide is quite a claim. --79.66.69.234 (talk) 19:26, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Poetry Section

This section is extrememly short and somewhat confusing. Where does it say that Owen is God? And who exactly regards his works as holier than the Bible?

Homoeroticism

The paragraphs in the 'Relationship with Sassoon' concerning Owen's homoeroticism - is there any citation or evidence for this ? Or is this just random speculation ? If the former, is this just more than one author's attempt to stir up controversy, or do others accept this ? If the latter, it needs pruning. The Yeti 01:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

In the words of the great Joe Orton: "What do you need: a fucking telegram?" The homoeroticism of Owen's poetry is commonly accepted -- except by the chronicly homophobic and morons. One poem "To Eros" even states the gender as male. But I'm sure you haven't read that either. Robert Graves, who was a friend of both Owen and Sasson, writes in his autobiography Goodbye To All That that Owen was: "an idealistic homosexual with a religious background". Sacheverell Sitwell, who also personally knew him through Osbert, told his biographer: "Of course he was homosexual, poor thing." Hibbard p513 You may also want to read the new Sassoon biography. Homoeroticism? Owen's poems are practically the litmus test against which others are measured for this: "The homoerotic elegy is one of the central genres of English poetry: Gray's elegy, Tennyson's In Memoriam, and the poems of Wilfred Own are some of the famous examples of this long and rich tradition." (p236 Homoerotic Space: The Poetics of Loss In English Renaissance Literature. Guy-Bray, Stephen. University of Toronto Press.) "The elegy that Frost wrote for this beloved friend enters the genre of homoerotic love poems...to Wilfred Owen, who sends a poem and his 'identity disc to sweet friend,' imploring that 'may thy heartbeat kiss it, night and day..." (Robert Frost and Feminine Literary Tradition. Kilcup, Karen. University of Michigan Press.)"There is abundant evidence in his writing of a strong homoerotic impulse, something that he seems to have recognised and accepted without much difficulty." pxxii Wilfred Owen, The Truth Untold. Hibberd, Dominic. And in a review of that book: Wilfred Owen Without the Myths. Contemporary Review, May, 2003 "Dominic Hibberd is an acknowledged authority on Wilfred Owen and the present volume is an excellent introduction to the poet, dispelling many of the myths with which Harold had surrounded him. In writing Journey from Obscurity, his three-volume autobiography which, for many years, was assumed to be both an objective and accurate record, Harold's portrait of his older brother was more than a trifle coloured by what he perceived as the failures in his own life, his obsession with social class and his abiding fear that the public might discover that Wilfred was homosexual. His mother was, clearly, jealous if the affections of her first-born were dire cted towards anyone but her. Whilst working as a private tutor in France he was befriended by the homosexual poet, Laurent Tailhade; in London, he was drawn into the gay circle of Harold Monro, Robbie Ross and Charles Scott Moncrieff." When Hibbard published an earlier study of Owen which stated that Owen had corresponded with gay guru Edward Carpenter, Hibbard was subject to a famous stinging article in the New Statesman (see 1987) by Carpenter's literary executor Jonathan Cutbill, which accused him of blind ignorance with regard to homosexual culture (e.g. regarding Shadwell Stair being a straightforward poem about homosexual cruising.) The other major biographer is John Stallworthy 1974. But Harold Owen was still alive when he was doing his major work and to gain access to his papers he couldn't be as frank as wished. I won't be defending this again here because I've learnt it is pointless to defend the obvious against idiots. Engleham 16:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Yawn. I ask legitimate questions, and get called an idiot. Grow up, and stop assuming everyone's anti-gay ... seems you have a chip on your shoulder. The Yeti 01:55, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

"I ask legitimate questions". No, you asked an astonishingly ill-educated one. You hadn't read Owen's poetry with any perception, read any recent biography, or even bothered to Google. Yet you felt entirely confident in the depths of your ignorance to demand an accounting. If it was apparent you'd at least made a token effort before asking the question, I might have been polite. But when people consider changing articles because they entertain a mere notion, but can't be bothered doing the tiniest bit of research to confirm their belief, i.e. when ignorance is allied with presumption, that's when I have a chip. And I'm as comfortable with that as you are with the smug laziness that's bred your stupidity. As it is, I did you a favour by providing you with the facts you couldn't be bothered finding for yourself. And your response: "Yawn." Which merely confirms what I've written. Engleham 06:44, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Yawn again. You really are up you own arse. It is irrelevant who I am, or whether I've ever read a jot of Owen's work, or whether I'm right or wrong ; what matters is that you are writing in an encyclopeadia stating things as facts, but not bothered to offer proof of those facts other than along the lines of 'Its bloody obvious ain't it ? And if it ain't to you, you're really thick' . Fantastic argument. Yes, at least now I got you to offer citations for your comments, something that should be obvious to someone of your absolute intelligence to have done so from the start. PS I didn't change your article. The Yeti 23:49, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Wow. That was a snarky discussion. We have to remember, as editors, that many people are exposed to a topic for the first time through Wikipedia. So what may be obvious to the educated may not be to the uneducated or ill informed. To build a reliable encyclopedia, information must be cited appropriately, just because you know something doesn't mean everyone in the world does. We have to keep the average reader in mind. IvoShandor 11:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks

I am learning about Wilfred Owen in literature so putting some of his poems on here has been really helpful

Thanks From Emily

now i have to do an analysis of three poems *groans*

←86.128.154.178 20:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)≈°°thanks°≈86.128.154.178 20:27, 23 November 2006 (UTC)→ηΘψέГɛ ТΩ Яǚɳ……………'Bold text'Bold textItalic text

there is something in "references in popular culture", which seems to be double...point 5 and 10 I think...217.225.113.105 18:20, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Publication during Owen's life-time

Some of his poetry was published in a magazine called 'The Nation', and this was during his lifetime whilst serving on the Western Front. I'll find a source to back this up.

that shouldn't be too hard - the Dominic Hibberd Biography should be enough to back this up. Mhmaudling 11:30, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

We Across the pond enjoy him too.

HI FIRST TIME HERE jUST WANTED TO SHAIR THE FACT THAT WE LIKE TO REED MR OWEN'S POEMS ALSO. TAKING ENGLISH COMP 102. HE JUST HIT ME WITH THE BLUNT AND TRUTHFUL ASPECTS OF BATTLE SEEN BY HIS EYS. "Dulce Et Decorum Est". SHOULD WE JUST BLINDLY GO INTO BATTLE JUST FOR THE HONOR FOR THE COUNTRY. THE HORROR HE SAW WITH WASTEFUL CHARGES ACROSS NO MANS LAND INTO THE TEATH OF OVERWHELMING FIRE POWER. LIKE" ANTHEM for a DOOMED YOUTH." A WHOLE GENERATION OF HONORABLE MEN WERE CUT DOWN FOR MUD AND MIREER, WHILE COMMANDERS JUST SENT THEM TO THERE DEETHS. DONT GET ME WRONG I HAD RELATIVES THAT WERE IN THE SAME TRENCHES AND BATTLE FIELDS. IN BOTH WARS. I AM PROUD OF THE HONOR SHOWN BY ALL . JUST PUZZLED WITH THE THINKING THAT FLESH AND BONE CAN SURVIVE THAT KIND FIREPOWER, WHAT WERE THEY THINKING. THANK YOUDrickerjr (talk) 17:57, 4 April 2008 (UTC)DOUG

The above comment was edited for formatting problems and a duplicate comment was removed. —[semicolons]— 21:36, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

image to be extracted

Portrait appearing in Poems 1920

While setting up a transcription project for Poems (1920), I came across an image that might be useful here if someone wants to extract it from the page and upload it to commons. The image it is definitely PD in the US, but as the book was published in the UK, it is UK law that applies and there is a small chance that the photographer still holds copyright. The name of the artist isnt mentioned in the front matter of the book, but there is an Introduction by Sassoon and a Preface; perhaps it will be uncovered in there. John Vandenberg (talk) 08:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Ghostly appearance

I think the line "His brother Harold Owen saw him a week later in a ghostly encounter on HMS Astraea." should be revised based on the fact that ghosts are widely regarded as none-existent, and yet it is stated here quite matter-of-factly. Perhaps it could be written as "His brother Harold Owen believed to have seen him a week later in a ghostly encounter on HMS Astraea."? Wikiqueenwiki (talk) 07:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't noticed it said that; that is quite wrong. Yes, your change seems like a good idea. Perhaps "His brother Harold Owen believed he saw him a week, etc" for grammar. — BillC ^talk 07:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

On further thought, I don't think the article should say this at all. The source for this story appears to be Khatri, Vikas. True Ghosts & Spooky Incidents, Pustak Mahal. ISBN 8122309437, whose title doesn't inspire confidence that it is a reliable source. It doesn't seem like the sort of thing a serious biography of Owen would carry anyway. — BillC ^talk 14:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Well done for getting rid of it. --John (talk) 14:29, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

While I was at it, I rewrote the 'Appearances in popular culture' section. — BillC ^talk 17:08, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yep, good idea removing the whole thing. Well done with the rewrite too.Wikiqueenwiki (talk) 06:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

A Saner Comment on Homophilia

Two Points - 1) It seems to me that commenting on Owen's sexuality under the heading of 'Relationship with Sassoon' conveys an implicit meaning which (if it is intended) should be made explicit and argued for. If this implied meaning is not intended, comments on Owen's supposed homophilic inclination should be under a separate heading. 2) I feel that that if one wants to argue that Owen had a homophile orientation then objective evidence can be found in his poetry, and in particular the poem 'It was a Navy Boy' (quoted below). This poem has been thoroughly suppressed, is very difficult to find on the internet, and appears in very few collections of Owen's work. It is in fact quite innocuous although some may perhaps think that it 'defames' Owen's reputation. In the present age we take these things more in our stride; the poem can hardly be said to be erotic in any sense. My feeling is that it casts important light on the other homophilic expressions that turn up in Owen's poems, and allows us to see the soldiers about whom he writes, and with whom he fought and died, more nearly through his own eyes and with something of what might have been his own feelings. Perhaps he loved and admired these men in the senses expressed in this poem. It thus illuminates his other writings greatly. The poem also says something about how it was that Owen became involved in the war - about how he overcame what he saw as 'cowardice'. Andrew Smith Jan 2009

It Was a Navy Boy

It was a navy boy, so prim, so trim,
That boarded my compartment of the train.
I shared my cigarettes and books to him.
He shared his heart to me (Who knows my gain!)

(His head was golden like the oranges
That catch their brightness from Las Palmas sun.)
'O whence and whither bound, lad?' 'Home,' he says,
'Home, from Hong Kong, sir, and a ten months' run.'

(His blouse was all as blue as morning sea,
His face was fresh like dawn above that blue.)
'I got one letter, sir, just one,' says he,
'And no shore-leave out there, sir, for the crew.'

(His look was noble as a good ship's prow
And all of him was clear as pure east wind.)
'I am no "sir"', I said, 'but tell me now
What carried you? Not tea, nor tamarind?'

Strong were his silken muscles hiddenly
As under currents where the waters smile.
'Nitre we carried. By next week maybe
That should be winning France another mile.'

His words were shapely, even as his lips,
And courtesy he used like any lord.
'Was it through books that you first thought of ships?
'Reading a book, sir, made me go abroad.'

'Another hour and I'll be home,' he said.
(His eyes were happy even as his heart.)
'Twenty-five pounds I'm taking home,' he said,
'It's five miles there; and I shall run, best part.'

And as we talked, some thing he said to me
Not knowing, cleansed me of cowardice,
As I had braced me in the dangerous sea.
Yet I should scarce have told it but for this.

'Those pounds,' I said. 'You'll put some twenty by?'
'All for my mother, sir.' And turned his head.
'Why all?' I asked, in pain that he should sigh:
'Because I must. She needs it most,' he said.

Wilfred Owen 1915.

Popular culture

I think it's worth noting the use of his poem "The Next War" in the alternate reality game marketing campaign for Halo 3. (Seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c958sNu03o) (Poem here: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Next_War)

74.166.240.133 (talk) 10:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Peterlee

He is said to have been born in Peterlee. The only Peterlee known in wikipedia is in County Durham. Welsh wikipedia says Oswestry. 82.65.112.47 (talk) 04:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. It was changed without comment by an anonymous user on 5th of October and nobody seems to have noticed. William Avery (talk) 10:51, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Father

This article implies that his father may have been Thomas Owen (1861 – 1931) who was a railwayman who made one appearance for the Wales national football team against England in 1879. One of my football reference books says that Owen senior was later employed at Reading, which ties up with Wilfred's education. Does anyone know if there is any other evidence to support this? Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 20:43, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

The ODNb article certinly concurs that Thomas Owen was a railwayman (and Welsh, it gives dates of 1862-1931 for him), it mentions employment in Birkenhead and Shrewsbury, and later places Wilfred in Reading, but doesn't specifically mention his fatehr being employed there. David Underdown (talk) 18:16, 27 February 2010 (UTC)

Date/place name inaccuray

Just a samll thing; in the War service section at the start of th second paragraph it refers to Wilfred Owen period of convalescence in Northern Ireland, perhaps this should be changed to Ulster or Ireland as Northern Ireland did not come into being until May 1921 under the Government of Ireland Act. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.24.106.220 (talk) 12:29, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Memorials

Although I do not have references or pictures available, there are 3 memorials to owen in Shrewsbury. One is in his parish church, St Julians, in the list of war dead in the entrance. The second is in the list of war dead inside Shrewsbury Abbey. the third is a stone/concrete model of the bridge where he was killed, the memorial lies in the grounds of the Abbey. (79.190.69.142 (talk) 23:04, 1 December 2011 (UTC))

Wilfred Owen and His Brother Harold

My remarks pertain to the discussion concerning "ghosts." It may be more accurate to claim that Harold Owen, as he himself wrote, had a "vision" of his brother Wilfred. He asked, "Wilfred, how did you get here?" There was no reply. From the circumstances of the vision, Harold knew that Wilfred was dead. MacLennan123Maclennan123 (talk) 17:37, 20 April 2012 (UTC)

Wilfred Owen's Death

I have taken 3 tours of the WW I battlefields & cemeteries with highly knowledgeable European guides. There were NO indications of any sort from the guides that Owen committed suicide. He was shot in the head as he was trying to lead his men in military action.

Owen is buried in Ors Communal Cemetery in France. I have seen his grave and have left tributes for him at his grave site.

MacLennan123Maclennan123 (talk) 03:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Is there any suggestion you find in the article that he committed suicide? Span (talk) 11:30, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Owen's Death: Reply to Span

For reference, I shall quote the remarks in question:

Wilfred Owen's Death

I have taken 3 tours of the WW I battlefields & cemeteries with highly knowledgeable European guides. There were NO indications of any sort from the guides that Owen committed suicide. He was shot in the head as he was trying to lead his men in military action. Owen is buried in Ors Communal Cemetery in France. I have seen his grave and have left tributes for him at his grave site. MacLennan123Maclennan123 (talk) 03:57, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Is there any suggestion you find in the article that he committed suicide? Span (talk) 11:30, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

To Span: I see no suggestion in the article that Owen committed suicide. My post [copied above] referred to speculation on the Talk page about his possible suicide. MacLennan123Maclennan123 (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Harold Owen and Wilfred Owen

I am trying to clarify the discussion of "ghosts" etc. on the Talk Pag.

Here is Wikipedia on Harold Owen's vision of his brother:

During the First World War, Harold Owen was an officer on board the British cruiser, HMS Astraea. In the weeks following the armistice whilst the ship was at anchor of the coast of Cameroons, Owen fell ill with malaria. it was during this time that Owen claims he had "an extraordinary and inexplicable experience": I had gone down to my cabin thinking to write some letters. I drew aside the door curtain and stepped inside and to my amazement I saw Wilfred sitting in my chair. I felt shock run through me with appalling force and with it I could feel the blood draining away from my face. I did not rush towards him but walked jerkily into the cabin--all my limbs stiff and slow to respond. I did not sit down but looking at him I spoke quietly: "Wilfred, how did you get here?" He did not rise and I saw that he was involuntarily immobile, but his eyes which had never left mine were alive with the familiar look of trying to make me understand; when I spoke his whole face broke into his sweetest and most endearing dark smile. I felt not fear--I had none when I first drew my door curtain and saw him there--only exquisite mental pleasure at thus beholding him. He was in uniform and I remember thinking how out of place the khaki looked amongst the cabin furnishings. With this thought I must have turned my eyes away from him; when I looked back my cabin chair was empty . . . I wondered if I had been dreaming but looking down I saw that I was still standing. Suddenly I felt terribly tired and moving to my bunk I lay down; instantly I went into a deep oblivious sleep. When I woke up I knew with absolute certainty that Wilfred was dead.[3]

MacLennan123Maclennan123 (talk) 02:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)