Wikipedia talk:Non-free content

See also: Wikipedia talk:Non-free content criteria exemptions

Dealing with non-compliant NFC

Relating to an issue that came up at ANI, I'd like to put language to identify how one should deal with NFC that doesn't immediately fail NFCC (eg: it has a license and rationale, but the rationale may be disputed).

The first way is to take it to the talk page before removing. That never hurts.

The second way is to go to FFD to gain consensus, particularly if it is the only use of that image. If FFD is used, the image should not be removed from the page to allow the image to be judged in context.

The final way is to be BOLD and remove the image, and if this makes it an orphan, letting automatic tools mark it for deletion if it is not restored. However, if the image is restored, the only next appropriate steps are either to take it to the talk page or to FFD, again not removing the image while either is going on.

I would also encourage editors to remember that several facets of NFCC are subjective, and hence removal without discussion when these NFCC criteria are at issue is troublesome. NFCC#1 can be seen objectively, but NFCC#8 absolutely cannot be. Removing images on NFCC#8 claims are likely going to be contentious so it is recommended to use talk pages or FFD if appropriate rather than being BOLD. --MASEM (t) 04:31, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

You want to actually write that into the policy? No way. Mandate discussion before removal? Absolutely unacceptable. Only if it also includes mandatory discussion and consensus before uploading a new image. Same for prohibiting repeated removals: only if such an 1RR also goes for those who restore images. We can't have a mandatory foundation-level policy here but then skew the editing environment against its enforcement by systematically placing obstacles on edits intended to implement it, but not on the edits that potentially break it. I also object against the proliferation of the silly myth that NFCC#8 is always "subjective". While of course it often is, there are plenty of cases where NFCC#8 failures are so obvious no reasonable observer could argue about them. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:06, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

No, you notice it doesn't mandate discussion before. The last option is to be BOLD and remove, but if you're reverted, you better discuss somewhere if you believe the image should be removed. And edit warring removals is just getting us back to BetaCommand territory. 1RR needs to apply to image removal or removal.

As to NFCC#8 being subjective, it is. I'm sorry if you feel it's not, but it is highly subjective. Often a NFCC#8 rationale that seems bad can be improved by improving the rationale or the article to justify its inclusion better. That's why discussion before immediately removal is recommended and even if you remove BOLDly, any subsequent reversion will need discussion to determine how to improve the NFCC#8. --MASEM (t) 05:16, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

I get daily cases like this: a picture of a football player in the kit of team soandso, uploaded with the NFCC#8 rationale that it "provides proof he played for team soandso". There is absolutely no discussion to be had over the fact that this is objectively, irredeemably wrong. Fut.Perf. ☼ 05:29, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

That's fine, and I don't deny there aren't some cases that are questionable, but 9 times out of 10, NFCC#8 cannot be determined as obviously objective. And even in the cases you describe, while removal is an appropriate first step, you don't edit war if it is reverted and added back in; you take it to FFD. --MASEM (t) 05:49, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Why does your draft not also contain language advising against reinsertion without prior consensus? Fut.Perf. ☼ 06:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Because, like article creation, that would go completely against the goals of the open nature of WP to have any type of restriction there. Yes, it is probably not a bad idea to check on a talk page to see if a NFC is needed in situations that aren't directly outlined in WP:NFCI, but as long as WP has the open nature, we can't stop people uploading NFC. --MASEM (t) 13:04, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :Option #3 is what reflects the current wording of WP:NFCCE. NFCCE is clear in that if the rationale is disputed, the burden to show that the rationale is valid or the burden to create a valid rationale are on the users wanting to retain the file.

I'd oppose Option #2 as it would be a source for a lot of controversy since it contradicts the 4th bullet point at WP:NFCCE.

I don't see the purpose of Option #1, as I don't think a consensus for removal would form. In my opinion this will just result in a heated discussion. Those who want to have the file included would insist on the NFCC enforcers to add a valid rationale instead of removing the file (that's what I predict from my experience). -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 05:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Masem's point (as I understand it) is that if you are doing NFCC 8 management properly, you should be using ALL of these routes, each depending upon the circumstances.

If somebody vigorously contests your assessments, the best place to take it is WP:FFD, and put it before the community. You can't expect to be judge jury and executioner all at once in your own cause. Jheald (talk) 21:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. NFCC#8 - and to some extent NFCC#1 and NFCC#3a - are not bright line tests in all cases. You can certainly challenge an image that you feels fails it, and if no one objects within a 7 day period, it can be removed and deleted. But as soon as there's some resistance to removing a file from a page, either you talk about it on the talk page to reach consensus, or take it to the larger venue, FFD, to get consensus for removal. The actions from the ANI that triggered this are where the image was removed, restored by another editor, and then removed again by the first editor and then taken to FFD. Baring common sense cases, images should remain on the page in question to justify their use in context if the reason for deletion is NFCC#1, 3a, or 8.

Now, I'm only saying that sometimes you can get more flies with honey by talking about removing an image first before actually doing so, but as pointed out, that's not a requirement. But knowing how touchy the general WP populace is when NFC "avengers" swoop in to clean up NFC issues, I would want to make sure editors know this is a valid option before being BOLD. If you are going to be BOLD, however, you need to know when not to figure in edit-war mode and instead switch to standard dispute resolution methods as described here. --MASEM (t) 22:11, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

"But as soon as there's some resistance to removing a file from a page, either you talk about it on the talk page to reach consensus, or take it to the larger venue, FFD, to get consensus for removal."

That is not what WP:NFCCE says. The burden to show that a particular file meets the NFC criteria is on the editors who want to use the file. There is nothing saying the NFCC enforcers have to show a file does not meet the criteria before removal. NFCCE says a non-compliant file can be removed and there is nothing in the policy that requires the NFCC enforcers to reach a consensus before removal. Those who want to use a non-free file have to show the file meets the criteria, otherwise the NFCC enforcers can legitimately remove it. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 06:34, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I think the point is what happens when they believe that they have shown that the file meets the NFC criteria, but you disagree. In that situation it is generally not a bad idea to take the file to FFD; that way they can feel that their case has been heard by the community as a whole. Jheald (talk) 09:47, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

I think it is irrelevant (at least regarding NFCC 10c) whether some particular editor thinks they have shown that the file meets the criteria. 10c is actually like a Boolean data type: either it has a valid rationale or it doesn't. If it doesn't, WP:NFCCE says the file can be removed. As for your statement that it would be a good idea to take the file to FFD, that is completely subjective and not a requirement. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 11:44, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

There are objective NFCC criteria that can't be argued: you're either in main space or not, you either have the article name in the rationale or not. However, except for NFCC#9, these are also the ones that are trivial to fix, so flatout removal without warning (via tagging) is not acceptable (we've been there before). NFCC#9 is the only one that does allow for outright removal and to revert those that attempt to readd, since it's pretty clear. I'm more worried on editors attempting to judge the subjective criteria, #1, 3a, 8, and possibly a few others, for themselves. Hence why a single BOLD removal is fine, but once you've been reverted, you must take it to discussion where, yes, those wishing to retain the image must demonstrate why it should be kept. --MASEM (t) 13:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

"Hence why a single BOLD removal is fine, but once you've been reverted, you must take it to discussion...."

Where is this written down? -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 18:22, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• This all presumes NFCC is enforced. It isn't. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:07, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Comment We can argue this over and over and over again. Hammersoft is correct, the NFCC aren't enforced and as such pretty much useless. I therefore think it would be the best option to probably replace our (the English Wikipedias) EDP with something else or rewrite it (especially get rid of NFCC#3a and 8). I know that I'd have the support of The Foundation in doing this as I brought up the idea of conducting an RfC on this matter with the community liaison. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 17:41, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Further comment I'd propose to start an extensive thread regarding this matter on VPR. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 18:03, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• I think the best option is to replace the EDP with a statement that the use of non-free imagery on the project must comply with U.S. Copyright Act of 1976, 17 USC 107 ("Fair use" law), and that downstream republishers are responsible for legal compliance for their own use. As an educational resource, we have a liberal hand in the use of non-free imagery under that law, which the WMF's own legal counsel has agreed with. The idea that we limit non-free image use here is farcical; we have more than 440 thousand non-free images here now, and constantly growing. The NFCC policy is a charade. Given that we don't enforce NFCC, and we are already accepting non-free content essentially to the limit of U.S. fair use law, we should drop the pretense that we limit non-free use. A policy that isn't enforced isn't a policy. "Wikipedia's policies and guidelines are pages that serve to document the good practices that are accepted in the Wikipedia community". NFCC policy does not document reality anymore, if it ever did. It documents what the Foundation wants us to say, but is very far removed from reality. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:04, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Hammersoft, I am aware what you're saying in that you feel that the project allows too much NFC or when contested, often in favor of keeping NFC, or the whole with with Beta's handling/restrictions on NFC. Let's figure out exactly what is wrong with NFC today, on the basis that otherwise NFCC and NFC are accepted policy/guidelines that fall within the WMF requirement, instead of moaning and (sarcastically) suggesting a give-it-up solution. Maybe we need a better (re)education of users via the Signpost on NFC (something Tony suggested to me about a month ago). Maybe we need a specific process for NFC (one user above suggested having a requirement for discussion to include NFC before uploading, a bit exaggerated but a possible foundation for an idea). NFC is still important for the project, and while I know there are parts of NFCI that I myself would not agree with (like cover art), there is at least reasonable consensus on all parts of these. So lets figure out where the gaps are to make NFC use more like the Foundation wanted it instead of just letting it all go. --MASEM (t) 18:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Let's be clear here. I am NOT sarcastically saying we should vacate the current NFCC policy. Drop "sarcastically" and it is accurate. The suggestion of having some sort of vetting process before non-free content is included in articles has been discussed before. It's never gained a smidgeon of consensus, and never will. Above, I described reality; this project liberally accepts non-free images to the extent of U.S. fair use law. There is a vanishingly small cadre of editors who attempt to enforce NFCC, but this cadre has never been able to effectively police non-free content usage. The efforts have generated an enormous amount of antipathy. The effects have resulted in more non-free content on the project than ever before, in a greater ratio per article than ever before, with more abuses than ever before. En.wikipedia is carrying on a farce; that we have an NFCC policy and adhere to it. We have it, but we don't adhere to it. The scale is enormous; it's as if there were a 10km/hr speed limit on every highway in Europe, and every vehicle on those highways averaged in excess of 200km/hr. As a project, we are incapable of upholding NFCC. We've proven that, after years and years of trying. Plenty of ideas have been tried. All of them have failed at one level or another. I stopped almost all of my NFCC enforcement because it is an utter waste of time. Personally, I think the few people left attempting to enforce it should give it up. Why? Because what little effort there is in enforcing NFCC is only delaying the inevitable discussion of just what we do (other than current practice) with non-free content needs to be had. The middle ground we have assumed has failed. Given that an overwhelming majority of editors would prefer liberal inclusion of non-free content, I believe that is the direction we should go; limiting it to just what is acceptable under fair use law. Add a caveat about downstream republishers being responsible for legal compliance, and we're in the clear. The problem is then solved. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:22, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• • • • There is a vanishingly small cadre of editors who attempt to enforce NFCC, but this cadre has never been able to effectively police non-free content usage. The efforts have generated an enormous amount of antipathy. The effects have resulted in more non-free content on the project than ever before, in a greater ratio per article than ever before, with more abuses than ever before. And this is identify the problem - that NFC enforcement is seen with resentment. I know that Beta's overall actions as a whole (not just restricted to NFCC) did not help the cause, but that's not to blame him for that.
      • It is not the case that the guidelines aren't enforced. Unfortunately the only regular place for review of images within an article as a whole is at WP:FAC. (GA and DYK does some of this but because only one person reviews it, it's not a great solution.) This, to me, suggests a pipeline problem in addition to the apathy. One can upload an NFC image, use it as long as it doesn't trick any of the image check bots, and be out of compliance for years (say, a non-free image of a living person). Now, it is impractical to call for a consensus before an image can be uploaded, but I could see better use of WP:New Page Patrol for images, tagging those that potentially fail subjective NFCC criteria appropriately (after giving enough time for the uploader to attach rationales/use the image, etc.) Right now, using Special:New Pages on the File: namespace gives every change to any filespace article which isn't helpful - we need a NPP that is better amendable to say what images were uploaded and to what pages they were inserted into - giving, say, 24 hr for the editor to get everything fixed in place. That addresses a front-end problem that we don't presently have. Mind you, I'd seek consensus for this, with the understanding that tagged files is just like tagging articles from NPP - they can be challenged and the like and aren't meant as a single answer.
      • But I think the larger issue is to make sure that NFC is not treated apathically. Right now , NFC handling is attached to specific editors that the community does not trust, and thus, perhaps irrationally, they don't stand behind the NFC requirements. We need to correct that, re-establish that the NFCC are required by the Foundation, and go from there. Regain the community's support - and if that means we have to be more touchy-feely with NFCC matters, so be it. --MASEM (t) 18:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
        • I believe your optimism is misplaced. I also believe that laying any blame at the feet of NFCC enforcing editors over the years is misplaced. It has not mattered who enforces NFCC. But let's say I'm one of the most abusive NFCC enforcers out there, as a thought experiment. I gave up NFCC enforcement some months ago. It would seem to follow that antipathy towards the policy should then go down, and we should have more compliance? I assure you this isn't the case. I gave up NFCC enforcement about the time the Δ case closed. So, multiply that effect times two...and non-compliance has risen, not gone down. Frankly, I don't care anymore that it's gone up. But, any argument based on the notion of being more touchy-feely is a non-starter. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:53, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Re to Masem regarding"So lets figure out where the gaps are to make NFC use more like the Foundation wanted it instead of just letting it all go."

Yes, lets go back to the Foundation Resolution and check the EDP against it. Then we can look at the issues with the current wording of WP:NFCC and perhaps start a discussion to reach a consensus in which direction to change it. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 18:32, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Again, I really don't think it is the case that the NFCC is a problem, outside of NFCC#8, which is purposely subjective, and hard to reword without pointing to specific examples from NFCI. We could have a community question to ask "if you could change anything about NFCC, what would be it (understanding that the Foundation has a set requirement for it)." --MASEM (t) 18:42, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• That the Foundation has a set requirement to limit non-free usage has been no impediment to heavy abuse of that dictum. I've raised the issue with the Foundation before, and received no response. They don't care either. Look, I fought in these trenches for years. I tried desperately hard to enforce NFCC policy. I am extremely well versed in its history, the arguments that have erupted, etc. It is my (not being arrogant here, but factual) extremely well informed opinion that any middle ground option where we include non-free content more restrictively than fair use law has absolutely no chance of working. --Hammersoft (talk) 18:46, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• See, I disagree, but it is perhaps that I have avoided getting too , er, devoted to defending NFCC in the face of rising emotions and trying to go towards consensus. There was a period between when the Foundation issued the resolution and after tagging articles that there was at least a good understanding of why NFC was being tagged, though the how was challenged due to multiple editors' (on both sides) attitudes. The point is that when NFC enforced started to become more strict - or more likely, more of a "no questions asked" attitude, those against the NFC or that didn't understand it fought back, and then we get the whole ArbCom/Beta issues effectively slapping the hands down on hard enforcement.
• Fine, we can't be hard-nosed about NFC save for specific cases, but we still can enforce it. No, we don't need to be wimpy about how we enforce it "Oh, I think that fails, but I'm not going to do anything about it", but we can have a process as I described above for how to do standard dispute resolution that falls within other similar processes, allows us to be assertive but not overbearing on failures of NFCC, and work to re-making NFC an understood process. --MASEM (t) 19:12, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• Masem, with all respect (and I have a hell of a lot of respect for you) and with no pejorative intent, the naivete of this statement is quite humorous to me. I have nothing else to say in response to it, except to state you are welcome to try, but I'll be absolutely floored if NFC issues are better even a year from now. They will get worse, I guarantee it. But, since I'm part of the problem apparently, you don't have to worry about me; I already stepped out of the arena. I'm just in the bleachers now watching the three ring circus. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:18, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Question Why do we need 3a and 8 at all, I still don't see it. What purpose do these two criteria serve? -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 18:56, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair use in US Law is evaluated on several factors, two being how much of the original work is used, and the type of purpose it is being used for. #3a addresses the first part to assure minimal use of a work (and also helps on the commercial reuse aspect of fair use that we aren't providing massive resolution images). #8 addresses the purpose, making sure that it is actually integral to the article. Without either, we would end up with Wikia-like image use which one could argue falls with US Fair Use law but fails the Foundation's stricter requirement. --MASEM (t) 19:12, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• We   already   have   Wikia-like   use. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:22, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• Egyptian Air Force ranks fixed by me by proposing all images for deletion. Flags of the U.S. cities fixed by Sven Manguard by proposing the article for deletion. The rest need to be fixed. History of British film certificates is tricky since some (but definitely not all) of the certificates qualify for {{tlx|PD-ineligible-USonly|the United Kingdom]]. --Stefan2 (talk) 20:26, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• The effort is commendable certainly, and I don't mean to take anything away from it, but it is utterly futile. For example, placing Flags of the U.S. cities will fail, unless you intend to also have all of Category:Lists of flags deleted, as well as Category:Flag image galleries. For other cases, it's an infinite game of whack-a-mole. You might 'fix' Egyptian Air Force ranks, and even if that stuck there would be numerous articles taking its place. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:45, 15 May 2012 (UTC)
• By the way, I voted on the flag article AfD; my comment there has nothing to do with the NFC concerns, and I refused taking a position on the NFC issue on that article. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:57, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• For some of these, when I see them come up, I see a strong intense and worthwhile (even if there are entrenched sides) for NFC use -- and then they just peter out with no resolution - until the next event happens; heck, I don't even remember a satisfactory conclusion to the sports logo bit even if that went to the next level of DR. I think we can do better than that by having a more formal, structured discussion that would be closed by an non-involved admin. I wouldn't do these in one fell swoop, but like, instead have a RFC on currency articles to establish the baseline.
• What I think we also have to fight against is OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. New users see, say, the US banknote article full of images, and think they can do the same with their fandom article. Say we have a RFC on banknotes and consensus says that all banknotes regardless of NFC can be included (a stance I don't agree with and one that conflicts with NFC right now, but let's take that consensus changes). We need to be clear that this is an exceptional case in including that in NFCI. --MASEM (t) 20:01, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• Like I said, you're welcome to try. I find it humorous. All of it has been tried before, and it's all miserably failed. Every scrap of it, all of it, stunningly fails in the face of long term WP:ILIKEIT. There is not a single argument in favor of NFCC enforcement that can survive in the face of that single force. The fundamental underlying principle beneath that is there are far more people wanting to contribute to the encyclopedia who do not care about free content from a philosophical view, and instead are very content with gratis arrangements, as opposed to libre arrangements. This is why middle of the road solutions to contain NFCC are not just doomed to fail, they've already failed before they've even begun. In short, nobody gives a rat's ass, no matter how noble the idea or effort. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:09, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Re to Masem: That means in theory these two criteria are actually those that ensure that the uses of non-free files here at Wikipedia stay inside the borders defined by law. That seems to be a strong indicator that these are the criteria that actually should be enforced, whereas the other criteria only aim toward Wikipedia internal matters. Perhaps we should try to formulate an EDP based on those two factors and try to formulate that in an objective way (if that is possible, I have no idea whether it is). -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 19:30, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• Point by point; The points of NFCC that are there because of fair use law are #2, #3b, 4, sort of #8 (going to transformative use). The rest are there only for Wikipedia purposes. For example, the restriction on location being in the mainspace is a purely Wikipedia construct; if a person is working on an article in their own userspace, it is extremely unlikely they would be in violation of fair use law due to that work. Yet, we prevent people from doing that anyway. Also, understand; objective measures under fair use law are deliberately absent. It is intended to be grey and in case law is judged on a case by case basis. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:48, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

What we need is a rule regarding how to properly handle a single case. If there were a policy saying that if the fair use claim on a specific file is questioned, those questioning the claim have to take it to some venue (something like Wikipedia:Disputed fair use claims) so that fair use claims can be judged on a case by case basis with requiring from those who want to use the non-free content to show it meets the criteria I wouldn't have a problem to use such a venue. But that is not what the current EDP says or requires from NFCC enforcers.

(See proposal below). -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 10:20, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Case example of why NFCC fails

With all the debate above about whether NFCC is viable, I give you a case example. Over the last several months, there's been a rather large number of attempts to force a non-free and/or copyright violating image onto a BLP page. A number of attempts have been made via Commons as well. The issue has been debated several times. Yet, even now, there's a person on the article's talk page insisting that we must have a non-free image of this individual. See for yourself. I, playing the part of the NFCC enforcer in this case, am the unreasonable, the person incapable of defending their position, the person who is utterly wrong. If I didn't have an interest in this article, the WP:ILIKEIT crowd would win, and we'd have a non-free image of this person on the article. Enjoy, --Hammersoft (talk) 00:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't see what I've done that merits being held up as some kind of case study. When I suggested you could invite others to the discussion, this certainly wasn't what I had in mind. I hope people keep an open mind if they're minded to comment on seeing this. I take issue with you trying to portray me as someone pushing a rock up a hill. You cited just one past debate in your "not acceptable" post, and in it the majority were actually against you. The single person supporting you totally undermined their own case by suggesting that emailing the Supreme Leader to ask him to upload a pic to Wikipedia is something that falls on the side of a reasonable expectation of what could be done. That debate was archived without any impartial conclusion, so where your confidence comes from in the above is beyond me. If this has been settled before properly, and not just in your opinion, then just point that discussion out, and I'll be on my way. But I will not stand for being characterised, marginalised or ignored in any way, shape or form, as a replacement for you not wanting to debate the issue properly, and that includes any kind of patronising comment in response to this post that you may be contemplating.

I also take issue with you trying to transpose my fair characterisation of your points as unreasonable, into some sort of personal comment on your character. Calling your positions unreasonable doesn't translate to me calling you unreasonable. I stand by my statements about your inability to defend you position, as I think it's self-evident that you have ignored multiple points of mine, and your own points have been largely generic and evasive/authoritarian, rather than being an attempt to persuade me with reasoned debate in full consideration of the facts of the matter and the issues I raised about your post. Whether you consider yourself an enforcer or not (with your writing style it's quite hard to separate sarcasm from normal speech) is no concern of mine. As far as I'm concerned, you're just one editor like anyone else, whose opinion doesn't automatically command any greater respect or belief in its accuracy than anyone else's. Krolar62 (talk) 15:51, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

I hereby propose we create Wikipedia:Disputed fair use claims and change the wording of WP:NFCCE such that NFCC enforcers are required to take violations to that board. The burden to show a specific fair use claim is valid by showing the file meets the criteria would be on the people who want to use or retain the file. This would make it possible to judge NFCC violations on a case by case basis. The file transclusion could be commented out while the use of the file is at Wikipedia:Disputed fair use claims.

My arguments in favor of this are:

• It would leave the burden to show a file meets the NFC criteria on the users who want to use non-free content.
• It would make the NFCC enforcers look less like 'NFCC zealots'
• It could be a place for the NFCC enforcers to coordinate their efforts without (hopefully) 'militarizing' NFCC enforcement

-- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 10:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

This is what WP:FFD exists for. --MASEM (t) 12:59, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• One of the main problems with NFCC enforcement is the repetition of arguments in similar situations. The case I noted in the section above is a classic example of that. Similar arguments, similar antipathy towards NFCC, similar rebuttals. It happens over, and over, and over again. This proposal would actually make this worse, in that all enforcement would have to go through this board. I've done more than 5000 edits in NFCC enforcement. If I had to take every single one of these to some board, it'd be impossible to move forward. If I didn't bring it to this notional board, people would be angry that it wasn't, and restore the violation until there was a discussion. This would permanently logjam NFCC enforcement. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:02, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) WP:FFD can only be used if the image fails WP:FFD in all articles where it is used. Banknotes of the Australian dollar has too many non-free images, but the images can't be taken to FFD because many of the images are used elsewhere, for example in Australian one-dollar note. My understanding is that it would also be possible to use the proposed page for cases where images only need to be removed from some articles but not from all of them. Currently, you can't really do anything apart from just removing them from the articles, which might cause people to re-add them again, creating edit wars. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:09, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I could have sworn I've seen FFD used before for contesting NFC use on a partial set of articles an image was used for, but can't find said examples. Not that I would be opposed to a board specifically designed to discuss NFC problems of specific or multiple related images, but I would reiterate Hammersoft's fear that if every single image deletion had to be handled that way, the burden is far too high. When challenged, sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of image removals by various means go unchallenged. --MASEM (t) 13:14, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I often tag several images per day with {{di-replaceable fair use}}. It would really be too much trouble to take all of them to a discussion board, formulating arguments and so on. Photos of people who are still alive or of buildings which still exist are very trivial cases. Sure, WP:NFCC#8 is more difficult and might need to be taken to a discussion. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:20, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (after having read Hammersoft's comment) Can't we just adjust the proposal a bit? When I tag a file with some DI tag (such as {{di-replaceable fair use}}), users sometimes add a tag claiming that my tagging is disputed. If a file is deleted from an article (for example because it fails WP:NFCC#10c in that article), users sometimes dispute that by immediately re-adding the image again. How about deciding that whenever an action is disputed, it should be taken to that discussion place? As I wrote, WP:FFD only works if the file fails WP:NFCC in all articles using the image, but we run into problems if an image appears to pass WP:NFCC in at least one article. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:16, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

We're coming right back around to what I wrote at the start of this, save for the final resolution step of where it takes place. Several removals can be done without any comment after tagging, as after 7 days without dispute they end up on admin maintenance lists and then are removed. Other removals can often be handled on talk pages. When that dispute fails, then there needs to be a point to elevate the result. FFD is, as noted, if that's the only use of the file, but a separate noticeboard or the like (MCQ wouldn't be a good place) to discuss either larger-scale problems (eg the banknote issue from the past) or cases where one specific use of several for an image needs to be removed. So whatever this NFCCE or noticeboard is, it is just a proper step in dispute resolution of non-free images. --MASEM (t) 13:25, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• I'm wondering if the proposed noticeboard wouldn't just be a new WP:NFR, i.e. a place where you initiate a discussion and get no reply for several months... --Stefan2 (talk) 14:00, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Either that, or a second parallel WP:FFD. Would a discussion on this proposed new board be able to lead to an enforceable delete consensus? Or would an FFD need to be run after it? Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:10, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
    • My idea is that a discussion on that board would always result in the removal of the file transclusion unless someone can for example bring a convincing argument that shows the use of the file is acceptable under NFCC#8. If then there is a consensus that the use is acceptable under 8, it would be retained, otherwise it will be removed. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 14:55, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Banknotes of the Australian dollar

As an aside, I tried adding {{non-free}} to the Banknotes of the Australian dollar three times. Each time, it gets removed. The last two times was because administrator Aaron Brenneman insisted there had to be accompanying discussion on the talk page otherwise it's just a "tag and run". Just as an experiment, please do not comment on the article's talk page, or edit the article, and (experiment over) observe what happens when I remove all of the non-free images from the article, properly noting the appropriate policies and guidelines; done. Might take a few days or weeks, but I'd bet the images will be restored. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

• HAHAHAHAHA Holy crap that was a hell of a lot faster than even I thought it would happen!!!!! --Hammersoft (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• So now administrator Aaron Brenneman, who has been on this project for nearly seven years, who has been an administrator for more than six years (i.e., someone who should know better) has initiated a discussion at Talk:Banknotes_of_the_Australian_dollar#Images. We now have to go through a long discussion on why the images are not acceptable for use like this, and the article needs to look something like this. We'll crawl through the discussion, and maybe, just maybe (in a good case scenario) the images will be removed from the article per WP:NFTABLE and WP:NFCC. After all that effort, it will be one down and more than 2500 overusing articles to go. Sigh. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• And to top it off, I'm now being accused of slow motion edit warring. Isn't this pleasant? --Hammersoft (talk) 14:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • To be honest, there's no way that this would be held to be anything other than perfectly acceptable fair use, either by us or by a verbatim commercial reuser. I really don't see why you think that there is a problem. This is useful content, precisely the kind of thing that our readers turn to Wikipedia for, for full encyclopedic coverage. At the moment we do a good job of satisying that, which we should be proud of. Who is supposed to gain, and what, if we tear down this encyclopedic resource? I only see people losing. Jheald (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Hm? Compare with the similar article ja:日本銀行券 (JPY banknotes). That's a perfect example of how you can design an article like this without using a single non-free image anywhere in the article. The corresponding English article does, of course, suffer from the same problem as the Australian article. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
      • This all points back to an unresolved discussion on banknote images, where we (being those backing NFCC) generally believe that you can use one set of front/back notes (NFC) as an example to extrapolate to all other banknotes of the same style, using tables to identify differences in color, the person/landmarks/other imagery on the front/back that likely have free media elsewhere on WP, ergo meeting NFCC#1 and #3a. The problem is, this discussion just petered off with no sound resolve. This is where we need to have a more formalized process that involves a final end-point judgement by an uninvolved admin to assert what is the case. There is some necessary aspect of the banknote case because the implication that some use that OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is pretty much the anti-thesis of NFC - what works or is appropriate for some cases is not true for other equivalent cases. Maybe there is a reasonable consensus for allowing numerous banknote images on a page about it, but we have to make sure that that consensus only applies to banknotes and not to, say, flags, discorgraphies, etc. --MASEM (t) 15:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
        • This particular article is the 5th highest user of non-free images on the project. If there's agreement that this use is acceptable, I dare say there's really no grounds to object to discographies having album covers. It's virtually identical nature of use. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:19, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
      • @Stefan: Except the Japanese currency images are hosted on Commons. Not really sure if they are PD by law though, as I think the template applied does not apply. I've started a discussion on Commons about this. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:19, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
• And (meant with all respect Jheald, please) Jheald demonstrates why enforcing NFCC is impossible. There is no way forward that allows for a "middle ground" of NFCC enforcement such that NFCC use is actually limited. Including the 30 non-free images is perfectly in line with Fair Use law. I 100000% agree. It's not at all in compliance with what the Foundation wants us to do, but the Foundation's dictum on the issue has been completely eroded and we are no longer compliant, if ever we were. This is the attitude that is firmly ensconced within the project. It's time to stop the charade and delete WP:NFCC. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Wonderful. And after the deletion, we'd just make sure that Wikipedia complies with wmf:Resolution:Licensing policy#Resolution §6. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:54, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • This is the type of attitude that I alluded to above that pro-NFC maintainers will take that makes the appearance of NFC enforcement an ugly mess. This is why I'm trying to propose something that is 1RR before standard dispute resolution takes in. Barring flagrant problems with images, no matter how right you are, if an image removal is questioned, discussion should happen. It would be better if that discussion took place at a common location where NFC-knowledgeable people would provide their experience (read: some type of noticeboard), as otherwise you get the isolated cases like the Kim-Jong Un case that Hammersoft pointed out above. As pro-NFC maintainers we should not consider ourselves better than any other editor, and that is why to some extent many editors disregard or pish-posh NFC because of the holier-than-thou approach. (And to be honest, yes, Hammersoft, what you did just with this would fall into that category, but this is not to say you're the only one that has that approach). We don't need to go soft on NFC enforcement, we just need to be more relaxed about it and use established processes to avoid battleground mentalities. --MASEM (t) 15:18, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Masem, I know you didn't mean it but I'll take the insult and run with it...literally. I'm not going to fight the reinclusion of the extreme overuse of non-free images on the Aussie banknotes article. Tell you what; you do it. When you're done, please report back how much effort it took in order to accomplish the minimization of non-free images on that article. Then, please take it to another similar currency article and see how much effort it takes that previous decision to stick on the next article. You will then perhaps see the enormous amount of effort it takes to make any headway whatsoever on this issue. I once ran an estimate of this, and found it would take over 20 years to bring the project into compliance. If you think your system will work, then by all means try it. PLEASE. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:22, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
      • The problem is that addressing such articles one at a time by trying to tag non-free or outright removal is a long long game, and again puts everyone into battlefield mode. An RFC to try to conclude the previous discussion from about a year+ ago in one direction or another would be the right approach. That addresses all the currency articles at the same time. And then we actually would have a document to point back to - regardless of which way the RFC closes - to say how images in such lists should be handled. I can't assure it would remove the bulk of the images, but I can assure that whatever decision there either is aligned with all other list-type articles, or specifically narrow to only apply to banknote/currency lists. --MASEM (t) 15:26, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
        • We already had an RfC. It got nowhere. But, if you believe a new RfC would give us a baseline to refer to, please start one. I will guarantee you this is not the way forward, as it will fail and fail miserably. Even if by some miracle consensus is achieved to get rid of such mass overuse of non-free images in currency articles, you will face a very steep road in trying to apply the decision. You will lose Masem, I guarantee it. We've been trying for years and years and years now. Enormous amounts of work have been expended to try to solve the issue. NOTHING has worked. NOTHING. All those years of presumably intelligent people, and all their ideas failed. If you believe you have the one solution that will cut the gordian knot, I have a bridge for sale I'm sure you'd be interested in :) --Hammersoft (talk) 15:39, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
          • My point on that RFC is it just petered out. No non-involved admin closed it, or provided recommendations. That leaves the question in the air still. Another RFC, though at a venue like VPP or this proposed noticeboard, and getting a non-involved admin to affirm they will close the RFC and make a decision at the start, would settle the matter - though I can't promise it would settle it on the removal of images. And it would be important to make sure that the RFC addresses the fact that images on tables like that are generally not appropriate and why would banknotes need a distinguishing allowance for it. Yes, if the RFC ends up in favor of keeping the images, I would be disappointed but would stick to it, just as I don't believe that NFCI#1 (cover art) is really a fair allowance but I don't find the consensus for that that we did have an RFC for some time ago. But, if anything, if the consensus is allowance for banknote images on such lists and such lists only, the means to carve out that exception is helping to strengthen the requirements for the use of NFC elsewhere; eg, out of the cover art RFC, it was clear there is still strong validity to the NFCC#8 requirement even if it is implicitly provided. --MASEM (t) 15:47, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
            • Go for it. If this sort of use is determined by the community to be acceptable, then there is absolutely zero reason why such a consensus for inclusion can not also apply to discographies, episode lists, etc. Please, please, please start the RfC. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:53, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • It seems to me that NFCC is achieving exactly the purposes intended for it. It's making sure, at least so far as we can, that the content here is legally safe for WP and verbatim reusers under U.S. law; and that images are not accepted here if they might inhibit people producing fully free images. And it's giving WP a reputation for caring about those things. That's what the NFCC are for, and for the most part they work very effectively -- including focussing legitimate debate where there is legitimate debate to be had. The difference between now and 2005, before the NFCC, is enormous. And frankly, if the images you're most concerned about are ones you 100000% agree are legitimate fair-use, then in itself is a testament to just how well the NFCC have worked -- and are working. Jheald (talk) 16:05, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Right, which shows that WP:NFCC is really just our statement on fair use and how we handle fair use claims, and has nothing at all to do with our free content mission I.e, the charade. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:12, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
      • 3,950,000 articles on en:wiki and approaching 14 million images on Commons are testament to our free-content mission, just how much we've done to pursue it, and just how much we've achieved. It's no charade. But en:wiki is not and never has been a free-content only encyclopedia. The decision was taken a long time ago that we could best advance our free content mission by appropriately using non-free content where it was legal and where there are no free media that could replace it. The NFCC are the sound and stable basis by we achieve that -- and, I reiterate, in my view have been an extraordinary success. Jheald (talk) 16:41, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
        • In your 16:05, 16 May 2012 comment, you made it rather clear that if it passes Fair Use law, then inclusion here shouldn't be a problem. Am I wrong? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:56, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
          • In my view there are three key things: first that the content must be legal under U.S. Fair Use law, not just for us but for commercial verbatim reusers as well; second, that there are no free media that could replace it, that it might dissuade people from producing; and third, which is perhaps a little less concrete, Wikipedia's reputation and how people see WP. In the case of the Australian bank-notes, they are (according to you) 100000% fair use; they clearly can't be replaced by free media doing the same job; and in my view having them adds to WP's reputation for being comprehensive and thorough, a good place to turn to find things out, and so a place that it is worth contributing to. I don't think we are using them lightly or wantonly, I think we're using them in a way which recognisably satisfies a legitimate query. Historically those were what the NFCC were created to defend, and I think the NFCC have done -- and continue to do -- that job well. It goes a bit wider than just "confidently passing Fair Use law", though that's certainly an important part of it. Jheald (talk) 17:27, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
            • You'll have to walk me through this carefully. I don't see how this is at all any different than allowing any image so long as it passes fair use requirements and so long as no free image can replace it? --Hammersoft (talk) 17:31, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
            • The flaw in this argument is "they can't be replaced by free media doing the same job". We can't 100% replace the non-free with free media, but we can easily reduce the amount of non-free by showing an example non-free image with additional text to explain the differences that extrapolates to all. This is the point Hammersoft's been trying to make is that a critical part of the Foundation resolution and NFCC is to call for minimal use of non-free works, not just assuring that such uses pass fair use allowances. I completely agree, 100%, that including all the images of the banknotes falls under fair use as an encyclopedia is concerned, but that's not the last line of logic that the NFC works under. It is particularly nuanced and seems counter intuitive, but this is what the Foundation requires us to do is to seek out how to reduce non-free works. --MASEM (t) 17:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
              • Yes, I understand that that is Hammersoft's view of what the Foundation requires. But I'm not sure it's necessarily the Foundation's. Kat Walsh, who was there, explicitly told us that the purpose of the Foundation resolution was not to tighten up the NFCC policy en-wiki had developed; rather it was to recognise that en-wiki's development of the NFCC policy had been a very valuable step, fixing what previously had been a serious problem, and it was something that other wikis needed to have something similar to if they were going to have NFC. But she specifically rejected the notion that the resolution was intended to change standards which had already been adopted on en-wiki. As for the word "minimal", I think it is possible to overinterpret this. I suspect the Foundation resolution deliberately echoed the word exactly because it is used so frequently in U.S. fair use discussions with a very particular meaning, "no more than needed to achieve the purpose identified", rather than to establish a separate standard in contrast to U.S. fair use. Indeed, it's quite hard to come up with a workable alternative meaning of the word minimal, apart from no use at all.

              Hammersoft asked what the third of my factors above contributes. As I said, in my view it's more impressionistic, harder to be concrete about than the first two. But there is a certain austerity in the way we use fair-use images -- not in userspace, limited in some lists, only after jumping through certain hoops -- which in my view does make sense because it does affect how WP is perceived, our reputation. Compared to much of the rest of the net, I think it's an enormous asset for WP to be seen to be holding back a bit, not to be taking such material 'wantonly or lightly' as I put it above. I think the community was right to end the largely decorative illustrating of episode lists, for example, even if there might not strictly have been a legal problem; and I think we do the right thing by concentrating cast lists into group photos. It's about the perception that we're being conservative and not taking any more than really does help satisfy people's legitimate queries. But I don't think the Foundation is requiring us to remove the Australian banknote images; I don't think it's something they would even particularly wish us to do. Jheald (talk) 18:57, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

              • I completely appreciate that point and acknowledge it. The problem is that we have a user base that cries out OTHERSTUFFEXISTS at the moment where one article is allowed to use a large amount of non-free and another cannot, even if there's a long established case history of this happening. One way to counter this is how I've suggested, where we can minimize non-free to fewer numbers non-free, which puts articles on par with each other. The other option is a much more social one, where we recognize that in an encyclopedia, an article about the banknotes of a country should have images of each banknote, even if this greatly increases the number of non-frees on that page, while other list-style articles (discographies) aren't allowed that. If there is consensus among experienced editors that this dichotomy does exist, we have to make sure that the exceptions or differences are spelled out in crystal clear language so that a less-experienced user doesn't come along with a OTHERSTUFFEXISTS flag raised high to demand multiple non-frees on an article where consensus has otherwise previously agreed it doesn't make sense. This might be a worthwhile conversation in light of NFC and NFCC#8 in particular, but its also a harder solution to obtain, I feel. --MASEM (t) 19:32, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a real danger in becoming too obsessed with numbers -- "the numbers of non-frees on the page" etc. Almost always, it seems to me, with NFC the real questions that focus should be directed to should almost always be about the qualities of what's being done -- what is being used, what sort of content that is, how it's being used, why it's being used. Those qualities are what discussion of NFC should focus around. NFCC #3 is of course valuable, particularly the principle of not using more non-free images if the same information could be conveyed with less. But I have real unease about the likes of Hammersoft's proposal below, which seems to implicitly lead towards a presumption that it's all about numbers -- that 30 non-frees, or even six, are by default a problem: in a case like the banknotes article they may well not be; whereas five are automatically okay: again, absolutely the wrong impression to be conveying. That's not the right way that people should be thinking about NFC. A case has to be made out for every single image, if it is to be used; but on the other hand sometimes very many images simply aren't a problem. I'm far less concerned about 30 banknotes than a single questionable historical image, and that's the kind of perspective that WP:NFC should be communicating.

So I think your second approach, which is the way we've traditionally done things, is the right way to go, even if it is more challenging. All in all, I don't the project is in bad shape as a result of it so far. And sometimes it will simply be, where a call is 50/50, that the community has simply decided to go one way rather than the other. Discographies for instance. It is (or should be) a hard call, because sometimes -- for a band like The Beatles or Yes, for example -- seeing all the covers on one page really does tell a story about the visual style of the band, and/or how it developed over time, which is lost if they are diffused over 1001 different pages. I certainly argued that at the time. But the community took the view that in this case a bright line was better, and I can respect that. The information about the covers for particular albums is still available, and given the levels of non-free content use in 2005, I think the fact that the site may now seem rather more austere in its use of NFC is no bad thing. But NFC management absolutely ought to focus on the qualities of the objects, and the qualities of the way they are used, even if it is more challenging, because it's the assessment of those qualities that the NFC issue is really all about and that the NFCC rightly try to capture. Jheald (talk) 23:45, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that obsessing with the number of NFC items on a page is the wrong approach. The problem is a userbase that doesn't realize the subtleties of the NFC numbers. They see an article that validly uses 10 or more NFC and cry that their article is told it can't have as many. That is a more uphill battle but it is one that we can possibly take. --MASEM (t) 00:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• The "traditional" way of doing things has utterly failed, by any metric you care to use. Abuses of NFCC are rampant, and on average getting worse in virtually every category day by day. Whatever checks there were to prevent obscene levels of growth in non-free content have failed. The point of my proposal below isn't to entitle articles to have up to four non-free images without cause for concern. The point is that articles that are the worst abusers don't get a free pass like the banknotes article has. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:21, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Gordian knot cutter

Proposed: Articles wanting to use five or more non-free media items must have approval for the use, agreed upon by consensus at WT:NFC and logged at WT:NFC/Overuse exceptions.

Have an enactment date, say one year in the future. All articles using five or more non-free items will have a notice placed on their talk pages. Editors interested in seeking an exemption have one year to make the case. After the year has expired, all articles without such an exception will have their non-free media stripped. Requests for exemptions may be raised at any time, and consensus can change. If no consensus exists for an exception, editors are free to remove non-free media, noting on the article's talk page the lack of exception.

Discuss. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:11, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

As soon as you set a number, people will use up to that number and bitch when you try to enforce below it. There's a possible mechanism here, but I don't think this is the right way here. --MASEM (t) 02:44, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• See my comments in the section above. This isn't an entitlement. It's an attempt to address the worst abusers. --Hammersoft (talk) 02:46, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposed modification to WP:NFC

Should WP:NFC be modified to exempt national currency articles from WP:NFCC #3 and #8? --Hammersoft (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

Modify the last sentence of Wikipedia:NFCI#Multimedia from:

The use of non-free media (whether images, audio or video clips) in galleries, discographies, and navigational and user-interface elements generally fails the test for significance (criterion #8).

to:

The use of non-free media (whether images, audio or video clips) in galleries, discographies, and navigational and user-interface elements generally fails the test for significance (criterion #8). Articles depicting national currency systems are exempt from this requirement.

Discussion

• Support: Given that current discussion apparently supports the idea that currency articles are exempt from WP:NFCC #8 and #3a concerns, this seems appropriate. Further, as a subject area, currency articles host more non-free content than any other subject area. Common practice seems to permit this, and as Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines states, policy/guideline should be a reflection of best practices. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• Let me preemptively state this proposal isn't a WP:POINT violation. Nobody supports the position I held, so I am shifting my position. Rather than endless discussions (as we've had for years now), let's codify this reality and save everyone a lot of grief and keystrokes. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:22, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• Opposed: Because I think this is wrong place to change it and the wrong way to go about this RFC. Exceptions and clarifications should fall in NFC, not NFCC, but importantly we need to learn, from the community, why images may be allowed in lists of currency and distinguish why they would not be used anywhere else. Comment Scratch that, I for some reason missed this was NFCI not NFCC. I still think we need to be absolutely clear if there is support for this why this specific exemption exists. --MASEM (t) 14:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support Anything that helps to reduce the amount of drama in the NFCC area is beneficial for the project and as Hammersoft points out this would be what reflects common practice and thus helps to bring some loose ends closer together. Providing a sufficient explanation for the reasoning behind this for clarity (hopefully) shouldn't be too much of a problem. -- Toshio Yamaguchi (tlk−ctb) 14:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
• Neutral I would like to support, but I don't agree with how this has been presented as an exemption to the EDP or the NFCC. Reading past debates, I think it's closer to the truth that for the purposes of currency articles, the widespread opposition to removals comes from the fact that enough people have, in full knowledge of the arguments and applicable policies, come to the reasonable conclusion that displaying every denomination is the only way you can avoid significantly degrading a reader's understanding of a currency article. There are many ways this hypothesis could be disproved, and to show that this is in fact an exemption that is simply necessary for practical reasons, but I see none offered here to support that. Krolar62 (talk) 21:58, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
• Technical point In order to exempt something from one of the non-free content criteria, you need to modify the criteria themselves - there is a standing decision by the Arbitration Committee (Abu Badali case) that any consensus to overrule the non-free content criteria (or the Foundation's licensing policy) is illegitimate. CIreland (talk) 22:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
  • You're referring to finding 10 of that decision. However, the proposal on the table here I think is to adjust NFCI, rather than NFCC -- as Krolar expresses well above -- i.e. to record a view that currency images do contribute sufficiently to understanding to balance the very limited copyright taking they represent (NFCC #8), and that the understanding gained from the image of each note is sufficiently additional to the understanding gained from all the others to justify its presence (NFCC #3). So it's to record a view on where this class of images fall vis-a-vis NFCC, rather than to change any of the NFCC. But furthermore, we have modified and adjusted and cleaned up some of the criteria in the past. And my reading of the ArbCom ruling is that that is legitimate (subject to the Foundation resolution). It is permitted to evolve the NFCC (and this is the page where such evolutions are discussed). What is not permitted is to flout or ignore the NFCC as they happen to be written at any particular moment in time, even if there is a large "keep" vote in favour of a particular image. This is equivalent to the direction to admins closing xFD debates to weigh the arguments in terms of policy, not count heads. Even then, per IAR, not even NFCC is a suicide pact: any such assessment needs to be consistent with what the policy is for, and what is for the good of Wikipedia. Jheald (talk) 00:41, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Well, kind of. I think it would be both a bad idea and also problematic with regard to the arbitration case to write anywhere We know these particular usages don't meet NFCC 8 or 3 but the community has chosen to overlook the fact - I fear that would be the thin end of the wedge. My own opinion is that this a moot issue because I would argue that these usages already meet NFCC 8 and 3 and thus clarification rather than exemption is required. However, that does not mean that the pages with these usages are not problematic - there are significant issues for re-users with these (and other) articles but addressing that would likely require a very different kind of solution. CIreland (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
• Support. It's clear to me that an image of the Australian 50 cent piece is a better service to the reader than text that says "Dodecagon 31.65 mm (across flats)". I know we're not voting, but I have little to add that's not already been stated more eloquently. And a big thumbs up to Hammersoft for bringing this here. - Aaron Brenneman (talk) 12:04, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I'd like to propose that there's basically three reasons why lists of banknotes would be special compared to discographies or other similar list articles:
  • • First, currency that a country uses is arguably of more encyclopedic value than the albums produced by a band, from an educational/core topics standpoint. I know that's subjective, but I think most would agree that where NFLISTS has been applied on to date generally has been of less encyclopedically important topics.
    • Secondly, and probably a less subjective argument, is that there is rarely a page on a specific denomination of currency, where we would normally have reasonable expectation to use non-free imagery of that currency without a problem. If there were articles for every single bit of currency of a country, then I'd argue that there's no need for images in the list of currency since they exist elsewhere.
    • Finally, there's usually almost always transformative use of the images of banknotes on the list, in that the history of the banknotes have been discussed, how they were commissions/selected, etc; there's some rationale to keep the images in place. Discographies are almost always presented talking about the band and then just presently the albums without discussion of the cover art (saving that for the actual page). That latter example is not transformative and fails NFCC#8 clearly.
  • If we can be clear on why we allow banknote lists to have images, we can perhaps cut off potential arguments in the future with other types of lists (either way), using these criteria (and possibly others) as they come up to say yea or nay to excessive imagery.
  • I would also further add: if all the images in the list can be reproduced due to, say, the country's mint producing a single composite/montage image of all the bills (eg one image that came directly from that source), then one has to fall back to that single image, per minimal use. Even if every other table of currency has images per item, this needs to be handled in this fashion to stay true to NFCC. --MASEM (t) 16:57, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Responding to various points (1) We have waaaaay more (like, thousands more) discography articles than currency articles. One can easily conclude that album articles are more encyclopedic than currency articles, since there's far more interest in them. You're right though; what is "encyclopedic" is inherently subjective. (2) There not being subpages for many sub units of currency isn't a reason to include currency images on currency-ography (excuse the neologism) pages anymore than a group not having individual album articles gets to have album covers on its discography. (3) The transformative use we see in most currency articles isn't any more in depth than we see on most discographies. I think we do need to clarify why currency articles are different, but this isn't it. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:08, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
      • There is a concept of what is more encyclopedic when it comes to topics that being things like WP:CORE or the WP 1.0 project, or when evaluating TFA. Quantity of pages is not a measure of importance. But along with the other two points, I'm not 100% sure this is all the possible criteria; I don't think it is going to be a simple black and white test, of course, but the more we can distinguish why articles of type A have this allowance while articles of type B don't will drastically curtail problems in the future. --MASEM (t) 20:17, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
        • Just saying this isn't it. It's too easy to poke holes in. --Hammersoft (talk) 20:23, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
          • And in the end, that may mean we have to be very explicit with the allowances, and absolutely clear that unless consensus here at WT:NFC is obtained, no other list immediately gains such allowance. And heck, even if we are clear why currency can have more NFC, and come up with a couple criteria points, it still might be better to require users to seek exceptions for classes of articles on this page. --MASEM (t) 22:25, 18 May 2012 (UTC)
• Kind of support but dislike specific exemptions. Oppose WP:NFCC exemption, support WP:NFCI clarification per HW below. I agree with Hammersoft that we should specify the criteria for exemptions rather than specific cases. It seems to me that the use of a currency gallery is to depict the subject of the article where the subject is a finite set. This does not apply to just currency, surely postage stamps and medals would have the same justification. Album covers would clearly be excluded from a definiton along those lines. There are few, if any, articles on the subject of "Albums by foo" - an article on the band foo is not an article about their albums. SpinningSpark 08:49, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

• Comment. Rather than altering the "multimedia" section, whatever change, if any, is settled on should be incorporated into WP:NFG, which directly addresses exceptions to the no-nonfree-images-in-galleries principle. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 11:49, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

• This issue is not particularly concerned with galleries. Whether in a gallery or as individual images throughout the article, the issue remains the acceptability of multiple non-free images of currency in an article. The exceptions in the "gallery" section are purely concerned with administrative pages, not articles. The text is fine as it is, we want non-free galleries to remain "generally unacceptable" and exceptions to be justified on a "case-by-case basis". The justification in this case would be that the community view (which will become part of the guideline if this proposal is accepted) is that multiple non-free images of currency are acceptable in a currency article, so a gallery of them is clearly within guidance. SpinningSpark 12:43, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, after looking over the discussion carefully. First of all, the exemption goes way too far; it would allow the use of nonfree images in templates, in various other navboxes, and who knows where else. Second, I don't find the idea of exemptions from the NFCC to be good policy. If there's consensus that such currency images are (almost) uniquely useful in the pertinent articles. that amounts to an apparently rational consensus that NFCC #8 is met, and, by logical progression, that multiple images nevertheless meet NFCC #3. A carefully tailored description of the exception to the gallery principle recognized by current consensus is all that's appropriate. Finally. the scope of the exception as presented is far too broad. An extensive set of images like the one in State quarters should be unacceptable if the images are nonfree. This proposal would allow the unlimited use of relevant nonfree images. regardless of the number of images involved, which is impossible to square with WMF policy. I'm dubious about the idea that blanket exceptions to NFCC #3 are at all compatible with the WMF's requirements. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 14:41, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

• Well-argued. I have struck my support for the proposal, but would still support a clarification in NFCI. SpinningSpark 16:25, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

• • Oppose: Firstly, WP:NFCC trumps the guideline, and it forbids non-free content outside of articles. Templates are considered outside of articles, and thus not allowed. Secondly, that line should really just plain say "The use of non-free media as decoration is generally considered unacceptable." And thirdly, on the idea of using currency illustrations in lists, it's already allowed. Part of the guidelines for images in lists say "Images which are discussed in detail in the context of the article body, such as a discussion of the art style, or a contentious element of the work, are preferable to those that simply provide visual identification of the elements." This can cover currency as long as their symbolism is critically discussed, since they're pretty much art too. And besides, coins are small objects, meant to be widely disseminated—its not like we're demanding galleries of non-free paintings; the size and purpose of the object could also be a consideration. And if we're discussing the symbolism of every coin with critical evaluation, in most cases one item cannot "convey equivalent significant information." ViperSnake151  Talk  16:38, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
• Comment @Hullaballoo and Viper; the exception does not modify NFCC #9 to allow usage in templates. This modification of the guideline doesn't see to allow usage in templates in any respect, nor would it affect navigation boxes either. As to the level of use, it's essentially irrelevant; the community has already voiced their dissent to having currency articles using copious quantities of non-free images stripped of said images. Currency articles, as a category, are the highest users of non-free content on the project. Every effort to reduce that usage has failed community support. The requested change is to bring the guideline up to date with accepted community standards. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:56, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose - This is like saying 'you're not allowed to drive faster than 120 km/h on our highways, but the community drives regularly at 180 km/h, it seems to be the accepted community standard, and members of the community have constantly complained when they were told that they were driving too fast (and ignored it afterwards), so it is fine'. We have many rules which are soft, which can be WP:IAR-ed, but some of our rules are hard, direct, and should not be WP:IAR-ed ever. WP:COPYRIGHT has such parts, WP:NFCC has such parts. (and I don't like specific exemptions anyway). --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 07:13, 23 May 2012 (UTC)

Fair use of photo of statue?

What are the WP guidelines about uploading photographs of modern statues? E.g. File:Lone-sailor-statue.jpg which is a photo of a statue: the statue is copyrighted, I'm sure, but can any person take a photo of such a statue and upload it? Or, are such photos limited to "fair use" only within a single article: article on the statue itself? --Noleander (talk) 12:47, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

You will need to refer to the guidelines at Commons:Freedom of panorama to determine if the country has freedom of panorama and thus if a photo can be taken freely. That will determine if a free image can be taken or no. --MASEM (t) 12:52, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I had seen that, and it says:

For artworks and sculptures not OK. ...For artworks, even if permanently installed in public places, the U.S. copyright law has no similar exception, and any publication of an image of a copyrighted artwork thus is subject to the approval of the copyright holder of the artwork....

I was trying to get more detail, as in: (1) Is the photo File:Lone-sailor-statue.jpg violating copyright? and (2) is there a fair-use exception available for WP (not Commons) if the photo is illustrating an article about the sculpture. Maybe I'll post a query on the Panorama page. --Noleander (talk) 13:09, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I see. Assuming the installation is 25 years give or take, it is very likely copyrighted and thus no free image can be taken per US FoP laws. So yes, being marked as PD is likely wrong. {{non-free 3d art}} is the right license tag.

That doesn't prevent its use on en.wiki as a possible non-free image, but usually that means it either needs to be in an article about the statue itself, or possibly the subject if no available free imagery exists, but that's a subjective call there. --MASEM (t) 13:18, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

• Of note, most of the images on Commons related to this statue have been tagged for speedy deletion on Commons as copyright violations. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:19, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

• The singular valid use would be if the image was uploaded here on the enwiki and used in the article about the statue itself The Lone Sailor under a fair-use claim. Under fair-use it will fail all other uses. It is too modern to be freely licenced. ww2censor (talk) 14:48, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Competition among non-free architecture tags

Tag {{Non-free architectural work}} has been nominated for deletion, and I have nominated {{FoP-USonly}} and {{FoP-US}}
As well as the deletion discussions, you might want to read the initial discussion at Template talk:FoP-USonly
I think it would be worthwhile to try avoid duplication of tags for this subject and to ensure that the tag used accurately expresses the relevant law and policy in clear language. When that's finished we can start a debate as to whether or not there should be any changes to our policy on this issue. 9carney (talk) 07:23, 23 May 2012 (UTC)